Arcanine

[Zebstrika]

Kefka, you are just plain wrong, except where you said it was super slow, something I already mentioned. Reckless is still +20% to the damage, just like generation 4. It does not have crap defenses, with 110/65/65 defenses. No, it is not SR weak, unlike Arcanine. Emoboar using Flare Blitz 5 times generates the same amount of recoil as Arcanine using it 6 times (assuming the same attack stat, which they don't have as Emboar's is better). So Emboar would just get the job done more quickly. Emboar is weakto the same priority move as Arcanine, Aqua Jet. It resists Sucker Punch, though. Yes, Emboar is slow, lacks Extremespeed and Morning Sun, Intimidate (though Emboar gets Reckless), and outclasses Arcanine in every other category.
Just to compare the damage, I will be cruel and give them both just 4 SpD for defensive investment and have them face Modest 252 SpA EVs, 31 SpA IVs, +6 SpA Kyogre's Specs Water Spout in rain with a critical hit. Arcanine takes 4006.2% - 4714%, while Emboar takes 4190.6% - 4930.9%, only a little more. Sure, Arcanine has Intimidate, too, though I have found Arcanine forces a lot of switches. And usually, Emboar doesn't need much speed, so it can invest in the defenses.
Breludicolo, Emboar takes about 4.6% more damage from an attack than Arcanine (not factoring in Intimidate).

 

[breh]

..you can't really say emboar outclasses it when defense is still so good..

although having to use chesto rest is irritating, it's really not that bad..

 

[ForteAnly]

Kefka, you are just plain wrong, except where you said it was super slow, something I already mentioned. Reckless is still +20% to the damage, just like generation 4. It does not have crap defenses, with 110/65/65 defenses. No, it is not SR weak, unlike Arcanine. Emoboar using Flare Blitz 5 times generates the same amount of recoil as Arcanine using it 6 times (assuming the same attack stat, which they don't have as Emboar's is better). So Emboar would just get the job done more quickly. Emboar is weakto the same priority move as Arcanine, Aqua Jet. It resists Sucker Punch, though. Yes, Emboar is slow, lacks Extremespeed and Morning Sun, Intimidate (though Emboar gets Reckless), and outclasses Arcanine in every other category.
Just to compare the damage, I will be cruel and give them both just 4 SpD for defensive investment and have them face Modest 252 SpA EVs, 31 SpA IVs, +6 SpA Kyogre's Specs Water Spout in rain with a critical hit. Arcanine takes 4006.2% - 4714%, while Emboar takes 4190.6% - 4930.9%, only a little more. Sure, Arcanine has Intimidate, too, though I have found Arcanine forces a lot of switches. And usually, Emboar doesn't need much speed, so it can invest in the defenses.
Breludicolo, Emboar takes about 4.6% more damage from an attack than Arcanine (not factoring in Intimidate).

You can say Emboar outclasses Arcanine in certain categories such as movepool or in certain stats but to say it outclasses the entire Pokemon itself is just one huge overstatement when you yourself mentions the flaws that Emboar has compared to Arcanine. In order for something to outclass something it has to be better than the Pokemon being compared in every category. That means better stat distribution, movepool, and ability. That's how you truly outclass something.

 

[Sajak]

Kefka, you are just plain wrong, except where you said it was super slow, something I already mentioned. Reckless is still +20% to the damage, just like generation 4. It does not have crap defenses, with 110/65/65 defenses. No, it is not SR weak, unlike Arcanine. Emoboar using Flare Blitz 5 times generates the same amount of recoil as Arcanine using it 6 times (assuming the same attack stat, which they don't have as Emboar's is better). So Emboar would just get the job done more quickly. Emboar is weakto the same priority move as Arcanine, Aqua Jet. It resists Sucker Punch, though. Yes, Emboar is slow, lacks Extremespeed and Morning Sun, Intimidate (though Emboar gets Reckless), and outclasses Arcanine in every other category.
Just to compare the damage, I will be cruel and give them both just 4 SpD for defensive investment and have them face Modest 252 SpA EVs, 31 SpA IVs, +6 SpA Kyogre's Specs Water Spout in rain with a critical hit. Arcanine takes 4006.2% - 4714%, while Emboar takes 4190.6% - 4930.9%, only a little more. Sure, Arcanine has Intimidate, too, though I have found Arcanine forces a lot of switches. And usually, Emboar doesn't need much speed, so it can invest in the defenses.
Breludicolo, Emboar takes about 4.6% more damage from an attack than Arcanine (not factoring in Intimidate).

Too bad it's slower than every sweeper in the game, and with less bulk than Arcanine (who can actually out-speed or out-prioritize many Pokes), that's pretty sad. What makes it even less bulky is that it kills itself with recoil attacks, which are by far it's best options for attacks. And Arcanine can use Extremespeed to attack before an Aqua Jet user. Emboar will never be able to beat any priority attack.

About the only advantages Emboar has over Arcanine is a fighting STAB and use on Trick Room teams. The higher attack stats are negligible if he gets KOd before he can even use them, or only use them once because he kills himself from recoil.

 

[blasphemy1]

Emboar is actually pretty good, though. It acts a lot differently than Arcanine, but it is a great stall breaker. Flare Blitz + Wild Bolt + Hammer Arm + Stone Edge destroys the majority of stall teams and it is pretty bulky too. Against offensive teams, it can force a switch or take a hit and it is basically guaranteed to kill whatever is out in one shot. Arcanine is good against offensive teams because of Extremespeed + Intimidate and decent against stall. I don't think they can really be compared to each other.

 

[ironman]

the bad thing with arcanine is that it has a bit predictable movepool(although close combat and wild bolt can trick you a bit more)otherwise it is really cool but i believe there are fire types that do everything it does better(heatran,infernape,blaziken,etc)

 

[Zebstrika]

Emboar is slow, lacks Extremespeed and Morning Sun, Intimidate (though Emboar gets Reckless), and outclasses Arcanine in every other category.

I find Emboar does not kill itself with recoil, since I give it almost max HP. It doesn't even kill itself after using Head Smash. It gets about 30-40% of its health taken off. This is because I kill stuff like Ulgamoths with it, which don't run much HP, meaning Emboar takes little recoil after dealing not that many HP for damage. Shell Bell or Leftovers helps a lot, too. I doubt you who think Emboar sucks have been using an Emboar, or you haven't been using it in a way so it doesn't kill itself with recoil.

 

[breh]

you guys this is an ARCANINE thread not an emboar thread

again, has anybody tried defensive nine? it's been working well for me, ignoring the oxymoron of a defensive fire type

 

[Camara]

Do you think Howl is usable in Arcanine? It boosts Extremespeed (poor Lucario) but unlike Lucario Arcanine is bulky, and I'm not talking about the other physical moves. Also, Arcanine has Morning Sun and WoW to help him set up better. Now with Close Combat and Wild Bolt Rock and Water types can't come in so easily to block the Howl boosts.

 

[Chou Toshio]

Chiming in about UU . . . I think UU this gen is going to be a lot different . . . like, infernape will be UU :P

Hell, Suicune, Swampert and Starmie all might be UU . . . O.o

 

[Immaterial]

Do you think Howl is usable in Arcanine? It boosts Extremespeed (poor Lucario) but unlike Lucario Arcanine is bulky, and I'm not talking about the other physical moves. Also, Arcanine has Morning Sun and WoW to help him set up better. Now with Close Combat and Wild Bolt Rock and Water types can't come in so easily to block the Howl boosts.

It's definitely usable, but there are probably better options out there. The main problem with Howl is that you'll usually lose out on important type coverage - one would probably want to use Howl on a bulkier set with Intimidate, as that would make setting up easier, but since you're going for bulk, you'd also want Morning Sun or WoW for added survivability, which leaves you with only two moveslots for offensive moves (Flare Blitz and Extremespeed, most likely). A set like that has poor coverage. You could also go for a more offensive variant, ie Howl + three attacks with LO, which also makes sense since Arcanine usually forces things out letting you Howl on the switch, but residual damage is a huge problem for this set. Choice Band is generally better for pure offense though.

Hell, Suicune, Swampert and Starmie all might be UU . . . O.o

... I think I'm going to like this gen's UU. (Starmie is still fairly popular, though. I don't think it'll drop down to UU.)

 

[A Fhaol Bhig]

Smooth over is what Bulldoze used to be called right?

Is that a viable move on him? Since most sets would be stalled by a Chandy for example...

 

[Benlisted]

Smooth over is what Bulldoze used to be called right?

Is that a viable move on him? Since most sets would be stalled by a Chandy for example...

Just use crunch if you wanna beat chandelure - more powerful, arc outspeeds it anyway and it also hits things that come in on CC for big damage.

 

[Onicon]

Looking for defensive Arcanine? Let's try this one:

Arcanine @ Leftovers Trait: Intimidate
EVs: 192 HP / 64 Atk / 252 SDef
Careful Nature (+SDef, -SAtk)
- Substitute/Extremespeed
- Toxic
- Morning Sun
- Flare Blitz

Just notes that this one is not the Smogon build. It may appear outmoded these days not to have 252 on HP, because stall battles became less common.
Here are some calcs; less than 75% means, you can stall for a bit in sunny days, for inflicting status it should be less than 50%:

Thanks to Smogon calcs. Because the 5th gen is not implemented yet I have worked with some modified stats.

Chandelure
Modest Shadow Ball +1 - 52.8% - 62.1%
Modest Shadow Ball - 35.2% - 41.7%

Thundurus
Timid LO Thunder - 55.6% ~ 65.9%
Timid Thunder - 43.1% ~ 50.7%
-> same for Tornadus with Hurricane

Jellicent (no SAtk investment)
Surf - 39.6% - 47.2%
Surf (sun) - 20.1% - 24.4%


Now that's some good stuff. While Arcanine is no Blissey, the defensive one can absorb some blows. Chancelure without Choice Specs or activated Flash Fire can't 2HKO that Arcanine. You can be flexible with speed investments, putting less in SDef and enough in speed allows one to stall +1 Chandelure in sunshine, although not recommended to do so.
More impessive is the poor damage Jellicent is capable of. In the sun Surf can't even break a sub; and what Surf can't do, Scald can't do either. Same is for Tentacruel, although it can only be damaged seriously via Will-O-Wisp or Wild Charge.
The main problem is that Morning Sun runs out of PP fairly fast, so that it only becomes viable in sun.


I'll introduce a physical tank tomorrow.

 

[A Fhaol Bhig]

Just use crunch if you wanna beat chandelure - more powerful, arc outspeeds it anyway and it also hits things that come in on CC for big damage.

I was more asking if its viable at all, not if theirs better options.

Well, I guess I mean more, does it hit anything/hit more pokemon for better damage then crunch does?

Or is it more situational?

 

[Benlisted]

I was more asking if its viable at all, not if theirs better options.

Well, I guess I mean more, does it hit anything/hit more pokemon for better damage then crunch does?

Or is it more situational?

Well, anything it hits SE takes 120 BP damage - anything Close Combat hits neutrally or Crunch hits SE will take the same or more damage. Heatran takes 240 BP from it, but takes the same from CC which Balloon doesn't offer an immunity to. I can't think of anything it wouldn't be better or equally as good hitting with another move.

Imo it just isn't worth the moveslot at all on offensive sets in OU. Unless you can think of something it could beat if only it could outspeed after a -1, in which case it has some minor very situnational worth, but in my experience most of the things coming into Arc are immune to Ground anyway (Gengar, Latios, BalloonTran, Gyara, etc).

 

[ThePowerOfAura]

Okay, despite the fact that he now has a usable movepool, he isn't definitely in OU now. Many of our 4th gen favorites, (Flygon :'$) are doomed to the UU or BL tiers, so Arcanine isn't even competing against the UU as we know it. For him to get into OU now, is like becoming top-tier OU in 4th gen. The opponents he is going against to get into OU are the OU of 4th gen, and all of the overpowered BS of 5th gen. The odds are trivial at best... good luck to the legendary dog.

 

[Benlisted]

Okay, despite the fact that he now has a usable movepool, he isn't definitely in OU now. Many of our 4th gen favorites, (Flygon :'$) are doomed to the UU or BL tiers, so Arcanine isn't even competing against the UU as we know it. For him to get into OU now, is like becoming top-tier OU in 4th gen. The opponents he is going against to get into OU are the OU of 4th gen, and all of the overpowered BS of 5th gen. The odds are trivial at best... good luck to the legendary dog.

He probably won't be OU, he's pretty much outclassed by Tran defensively, and offensively Rain neuters him. However, on Sun teams he for sure can compete in OU at least. His excellent movepool really shines (no pun intended) and he absolutely decimates with Flare Blitz. So basically, by usage, no he will not be OU, but he has a niche at least - hence him getting an OU analysis.

 

[A Fhaol Bhig]

Heatran takes 240 BP from it,

Still though, just the thought of someone switching in a Heatran thinking they can get a flash fire boost and kill it, and then getting smashed with a Bulldoze would be fairly hilarious.

But I agree with you, I just wanted to know if him having a ground move would be of any benefit.

 

[Slurray]

Chancelure without Choice Specs or activated Flash Fire can't 2HKO that Arcanine.

Flash Fire only boosts the power of Fire-type moves.

 

[sax king]

I'd kinda like to bump this thread because I just discovered a great doubles strategy.
Something weak (like Whimsicott) uses Beat Up on Arcanine with Justified. Attack skyrockets to +6. Arcanine proceeds to sweep with Extremespeed.

 

[elchupo]

^IIRC, that strategy's been around for a few weeks already. I seen it mentioned in the Lucario thread.

Anyway, Arcanine is a bit of an anomaly for me as to why it simply can't ever seem to make it work. I mean it has mostly great stats across the board, good STAB moves to abuse (Flare Blitz), high BP coverage moves (CC, EQ, Wild Bolt) as well as the best priority attack in the game.

Fire can't be THAT bad of a type to hold down what is essentially a great Pokemon in the depths of NU/UU.

 

[PokéMontage]

^Arcanine doesn't learn EQ.

One of the problems in past generations was that Arcanine didn't have such a great movepool to make use of its relatively high and well-balanced stats. This generation it got some very useful additions in Close Combat and Wild Bolt, but it's too little too late considering the power creep that came along with it. He's strong but not quite strong enough compared to other threats, he can't boost his Attack/SpAtk outside of lolHowl, he has Extremespeed but his natural Speed isn't amazing, and he can take a hit but he's no defensive behemoth. Not to mention that the weather that favors him the most - sun - isn't the dominating weather force in OU. Don't get me wrong, he has a lot going for him, but Arcanine is simply destined to be a very good UU.

 

[Virizion]

^Arcanine doesn't learn EQ.

One of the problems in past generations was that Arcanine didn't have such a great movepool to make use of its relatively high and well-balanced stats. This generation it got some very useful additions in Close Combat and Wild Bolt, but it's too little too late considering the power creep that came along with it. He's strong but not quite strong enough compared to other threats, he can't boost his Attack/SpAtk outside of lolHowl, he has Extremespeed but his natural Speed isn't amazing, and he can take a hit but he's no defensive behemoth. Not to mention that the weather that favors him the most - sun - isn't the dominating weather force in OU. Don't get me wrong, he has a lot going for him, but Arcanine is simply destined to be a very good UU.

Sun is popular in UU, though. Also, his Speed annoys me, its max Speed at level 50 is 161, and I don't like to use anything lower than ~170 Speed unless it's bulky, which my Arcanine set isn't.

 

[alexwolf]

Kefka, you are just plain wrong, except where you said it was super slow, something I already mentioned. Reckless is still +20% to the damage, just like generation 4. It does not have crap defenses, with 110/65/65 defenses. No, it is not SR weak, unlike Arcanine. Emoboar using Flare Blitz 5 times generates the same amount of recoil as Arcanine using it 6 times (assuming the same attack stat, which they don't have as Emboar's is better). So Emboar would just get the job done more quickly. Emboar is weakto the same priority move as Arcanine, Aqua Jet. It resists Sucker Punch, though. Yes, Emboar is slow, lacks Extremespeed and Morning Sun, Intimidate (though Emboar gets Reckless), and outclasses Arcanine in every other category.
Just to compare the damage, I will be cruel and give them both just 4 SpD for defensive investment and have them face Modest 252 SpA EVs, 31 SpA IVs, +6 SpA Kyogre's Specs Water Spout in rain with a critical hit. Arcanine takes 4006.2% - 4714%, while Emboar takes 4190.6% - 4930.9%, only a little more. Sure, Arcanine has Intimidate, too, though I have found Arcanine forces a lot of switches. And usually, Emboar doesn't need much speed, so it can invest in the defenses.
Breludicolo, Emboar takes about 4.6% more damage from an attack than Arcanine (not factoring in Intimidate).

you completely forgot to mention flash fire...
in a sun tem arcanine is 1000 times better than emboar having priority,reliable recovery,better speed,and can absorb fire attacks making it even stronger than emboar...flash fire is a big selling point for arcanine in a sun team...

also emboar fails to check some threats that arcanine does,namely everything carrying a flying or psychic move...
for example if your emboar has lost a little life,and doesn't run speed which you said is possible due to investing in bulkiness,skarmory can murder it with brave bird which never happens with arcanine...

also arcanine in the sun is a very nice reuniclus counter while emboar is a check at best...adamant arcanine using flare blitz with a life orb in the sun ohkos max def/max hp reuniclus while emboar dies horribly if he switches on in psychic....
in general flying and psychic moves are much more common in this metagame and this doesn't help emboar a lot,while arcanine can live(or outspeed, through most neutral attacks and usually ohko back.

my favourite arcanine set is admant with max hp/max atc with life orb,ability flash fire and a moveset of:flare blitz,es,cc and morning sun!!!he is very bulky and if used in a sun team has only 2 weaknesses(rock and earth)while having 5 reistances/immunities...he also hits incredibly hard before or after the flash fire boost,can recover damage lost at will and can screw over the most dangerous and common weather poke:tyranitar!!!
arcanine is the best!!!