Arceus-Grass (0/3 QC checks)

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kingmidas

kingmidas

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Overview
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- Meadow Plate gives arceus a rarely used typing, yet an effective one.

- Decent bulk, and attack stats, while possessing an above average speed tier.

- Has several glaring weaknesses.

- Great niche as a defensive mon.

- Has a wide movepool with many support options.

- Stops key threats such as kyogre and groudon, grass arceus' ability to check the latter is one of the main reaons to use it.

Support

########

name: Support

move 1: Grass Knot

move 2: Recover

move 3: Thunder Wave / Will-o-Wisp

move 4: Stone Edge / Defog / Earthquake

ability: Multitype

item: Meadow Plate

nature: Timid

evs: 252 HP / 112 Spe / 144 Sdef

Moves

========

  • Grass Knot for generally high powered stab considering the weight of most ubers, with more pp then judgment.
  • Recover for the obligatory recovery for longevity.
  • Stone Edge for hitting the several flying types in the tier (read: Ho-Oh, Yveltal) that try to wall it.
  • Earthquake to be able to deal some damage to mega-gengar, and steels that try to switch into it.
  • Thunder Wave is used to prevent fast sweepers or trappers such as mega-gengar from taking advantage of grass arceus and can some in handy for other teammates who need the speed control.
  • Will-o-Wisp deters physical attackers from switching in, like mega mewtwo X that are not deterred by arceus’ coverage.
  • Defog to eliminate hazards and screens to support your team.
Set Details
========
  • The EVs provide nice bulk, and allows sufficient damage with stone edge when needed. A hasty nature allows grassceus to outrun base 100s with the speed investment.
  • What you choose depends on preference and team structure.
  • An alternative ev spread if running earthquake would be 252 HP / 72 Atk / 72 Sdef 112 Spd with hasty nature
  • Another alternate spread to be a backup check to xerneas would be 252 hp / 240 SpD / 16 Speed thats run with thunder wave / grass knot / roar / recover.
Usage Tips

========

  • This set’s moveslots are very interchangeable, and thus it can handle different threats with the right moves, so choose knowing what you want to cover.
  • This set is a decent specs/scarf ogre check with smart prediction.
  • Only use with earthquake if you have a really solid answer for ho-oh as even with earthquake, gengar isn't always losing.
  • Avoid mega-gengar as much as you can, best case scenario you make a trade with it, but its still doing its job with destiny bond.
Team Options
========
  • Water Types are good teammates, as they help deal with its fire weakness, and you can clear the way for their stab.
  • A pursuit user like scizor helps mitigate the weakness to mega-gengar. Tyranitar also preforms this role, and also checks ho-oh, but is weak to focus blast so mega-gar can beat it.
  • A rock or steel type to help deal with ho-oh and other flying types is nice, in the case of earthquake and even if you don't trust stone edge's accuracy.

Other Options
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  • Ice beam can be used over the edgequake moveslot, as it provides a way to hit the dragon types in the tier for decent damage.
  • A calm mind set is possible consisting of recover, grass knot, calm mind and either fire blast or ice beam with 252 hp / 4 spatk / 252 speed, but it isn't very viable.
  • Fire blast can fill the same role as ice beam and take over the edgequake moveslot.

Checks & Counters
########
**Shadow Tag**: Mega Gengar destroys Grass Arceus with STAB Sludge Wave. Gothitelle has no difficulty setting up on it while Wobbuffet doesn't have to do much to transform Grass Arceus into total setup fodder for a sweeper.
**Fire-types**: Both Ho-Oh and Blaziken fear next to nothing from Grass-Arceus while they can hit back very hard with their powerful STAB attacks. Blaziken can also use Grass Arceus as a free Swords Dance making it very difficult to check.
**Steel-types**: Klefki, Ferrothorn, Skarmory, and Forretress have no in switching in on Grass Arceus and setting up layers of Spikes, although burns are bothersome. Dialga can setup SR or go straight for the Toxic. Scizor and Mega Lucario can also destroy Grass Arceus if it doesn't run Will-O-Wisp.
**Yveltal**: Resists Grass-type attacks and destroys Arceus with Oblivion Wing and Hurricane. It dislikes having extra passive damage from Will-O-Wisp on top of a crippled Sucker Punch, though.
**Shaymin-S**: Double resists Grass Arceus's STAB and barely has to try when flinch haxing with Air Slash. Can safely spam Substitute to block whatever status Arceus may have.
**Poison Arceus**: Can setup a Calm Mind sweep on Grass Arceus without difficulty.
**Kyurem-W**: Resists Judgment and Grass Knot while hitting back very hard with STAB Ice Beam.
**Reshiram**: Not bothered by much short of Stone Edge while Blue Flare is very threatening to Grass Arceus.
**Status**: Toxic and Paralysis prevents Grass Arceus from staying in and abusing Recover. Burns aren't as troublesome but the passive damage can still rack up quickly.



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Slash Defog in the stone edge/eq moveslot

kingmidas said:
An alternative ev spread if running earthquake would be 252 HP / 112 Spe / 144 Sdef with timid nature
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But that's wrong. This should be the EV spread for non-EQ sets. 72 attack is needed so that EQ can OHKO Gengar with rocks up
 
Not sure if Judgment is really worth a slash tbh

Also change the title to Quality Control since you're asking for checks now
 
You can drop the Judgment slash since Manaphy (the Pokemon) isn't really relevant anymore.

You can mention TTar as a Pursuiter too since it checks Ho-Oh, just mention it's much less reliable cuz Focus Blast.

You can mention Max HP/Max SpD Calm as a backup EV spread, it lets you have a backup Xern check with TWave if Scizor gets DBonded attempting to Pursuit Gengar.
 
I don't really like Thunder Wave that much on this mon, but it has a lot of utility against Gengar if you can catch it on the initial switch I guess. Still, even with Thunder Wave you are kinda trapped by Gengar unless you carry EQ. If the slashing would represent what I usually use (although this mon is very flawed and I don't particularly like it) then I'd go with:

move 1: Grass Knot
move 2: Recover
move 3: Stone Edge / Toxic / Will o Wisp
move 4: Defog / Stone Edge

Usually you wanna run Defog- Stone Edge is also a really good move to have to help with Grassceus inherent the Ho-oh weakness, however some teams will be fine with having Toxic to throw out on Ho-oh switching in. If you run Will-o-Wisp, then Stone Edge over Defog is feasible as WoW+GK means you are Ho-oh bait to an extent where you give it practically free switch ins. So in short, you run STAB+recover, then you choose either Stone Edge or Toxic if you want to use Defog. The choice between the two depends on your teambuild. If you want to use WoW, then Stone Edge in the last slot and no Defog.

Earthquake is a good surprise and hits Heatran, Gengar, Aegislash and Blaziken, but I don't know if it deserves a slash because it's hard to fit. I guess you could slash it in the last slot behind Stone Edge. I'll comment more later.
 
Usually you wanna run Defog
Click to expand...
Considering you're usually running Scizor this really isn't that important
I don't really like Thunder Wave that much on this mon, but it has a lot of utility against Gengar if you can catch it on the initial switch I guess.
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It's better than just hitting Gengar, you hit basically every mon that could switch into this as Grassceus naturally scares away Ground and Electric types. You discourage Ho-Oh from switching in and I let's you better deal with Palkia, etc
 
I'll stay with the current slashing atm unless more people agree with Hack. As Manaphy has used grassceus much more extensively, I'll stick with this.
 
Overview

Grass Arceus does not possess "incredible" or even "good" attacking stats. Its speed also falls short of incredible though it's certainly very good by Ubers standards. Rephrase this please. Mention that it can check several important threats in the last dash, including Kyogre and most Groudon. If Grass Arceus could not check Kyogre well, it would hardly ever get used. It is a better Kyogre check than Water Arceus IMO because the Ice Beam weakness is preferable to the Thunder Weakness; it can also threaten Kyogre back with more than status. Also mention its excellent movepool because support Grass Arceus can run a lot of viable moves.

Moveset / Moveset Comments

Judgment can be slashed after Grass Knot because it does consistent damage to mons like Gliscor and Lando-T, though the extra power from Grass Knot is hard to pass up. You don't have to though since there are so many slashes with this thing already. Bump Recover up to #2 on the moveset and don't slash it with anything. I think both Thunder Wave and Will-O-Wisp deserve to be slashed in the 3rd section. When considering what status move to put on a support Arceus forme, consider what Pokemon commonly switch into it. I dislike Thunder Wave on most support Arceus but when you examine the mons that hypothetically switch into Grass Arceus...

Heatran: Mildly annoyed by Thunder Wave, immune to Toxic and Will-O-Wisp

Ho-Oh: Somewhat annoyed by Thunder Wave, loathes Toxic and is immune to Will-O-Wisp

Reshiram: Hates Thunder Wave, somewhat annoyed by Toxic and is immune to Will-O-Wisp

Dialga: Somewhat annoyed by Thunder Wave and Will-O-Wisp, immune to Toxic

Yveltal: Dislikes all three

Giratina-A: Rest variants shrug off all three, but Thunder Wave bothers it the least

Scizor: HATES Will-O-Wisp, doesn't mind T-Wave and is immune to Toxic

Giratina-O: HATES Will-O-Wisp, loathes Toxic and is somewhat annoyed by Thunder Wave

Shaymin-Sky: Loathes Thunder Wave, somewhat annoyed by Toxic (especially Lefties variants) and Will-O-Wisp

Kyurem-W: Loathes Thunder Wave (especially Scarf and fast Specs), dislikes Toxic and Will-O-Wisp

Lugia: Loathes Toxic and very much dislikes Thunder Wave and Will-O-Wisp

...you can see that nothing appreciates Thunder Wave since Ground-types will never switch into you. Note that the Pokemon that can tolerate a Thunder Wave can handle other status as least as easily, except in the case of Ho-Oh which generally prefers being paralyzed as opposed to being put on a timer AND MEGA SCIZOR my mistake, that hates Will-O-Wisp. I feel that Thunder Wave deserves the first slash on this set, though Will-O-Wisp prevents EKiller from setting up on you and cripples physical attackers in general. Toxic is nice for Lugia and Ho-Oh, but the latter can hit by Stone Edge and Lugia isn't difficult to switch out of. The final slot can go to Defog, Stone Edge or Earthquake, depending on team need. If Gengar has not Mega-evolved yet, you can switch out of it and even if it has, it can be paralyzed (and therefore ruined) on the switch, so Earthquake isn't that great IMO (specifically mention it destroys Heatran though!). Chances are if it has already mega evolved, you might be in KO range from Sludge Wave, rendering Earthquake obsolete. It can be slashed, but Defog and Stone Edge should come first.

Set Details

"Another alternate spread to be a backup check to xerneas would be 252 hp / 4 Spatk / 252 spd" <---incorrect, +2 Xerneas OHKOs that spread after SR. If you want Grassceus to check Power Herb Xerneas at full health, run a Specially Defensive spread with Roar. Roar is good on Grass Arceus and deserves a mention in set details along with a Specially Defensive set (240 HP 252 SpD 16 Speed Calm nature). I'm not sure a max speed set mention is necessary as I don't think it is important for this Pokemon to speed tie other Arceus, though it could be nice for Jolly Life Orb EKiller I suppose.
Usage Tips

This section is vague and needs the most work out of any section of this analysis. That isn't surprising though as this section is difficult! Instead of rehashing its moves, talk about when using a status move is preferable to using an attack or Recover. For example, suppose you have taken 40% from a Scarf Kyogre's Water Spout. What should you do? If the opponent's best switchin to Grass Arceus is weak to status, it might be tempting to throw a TWave or a Will-O-Wisp. However, if the opponent's switchin is a Ho-Oh or something else that threaten to do massive damage to you & forces you to switch out, you lose the ability to switch into Scarf Kyogre as two consecutive Water Spouts will kill Grass Arceus. Therefore, Recover is often the safer play. However, if you have a back-up check to Kyogre or are confident you can get a Recover off later on in the match, using a Status move might be the best course of action. DEFINITELY stress that directly attacking with Grass Arceus will often result in wasted turns, at least until late game. This is due to the many Grass resists that reside in this tier. Also talk about little things. For example, you want to keep this forme's typing a secret as you would with any Support Arceus forme. Therefore, do not lead with this and reveal only when necessary, as it can force your opponent into wasting a turn Earthquaking or Surfing your Arceus-Grass.

Team Options

Heatran pairs very well with Grass Arceus and checks threats like Ho-Oh and Special Genesect for it. Kyogre is a particularly good Water type to pair with this since Drizzle allows Grass Arceus to temporarily counter the dangerous Palkia as oppose to simply checking it. TTar and Scizor are very good ideas to partner with Grass Arceus, glad you mentioned them :p. Xerneas is a good partner as well since Grass Arceus does not like some dragons (thinking Reshiram and Rayquaza specifically).

Checks & Counters

Briefly to get you started, Grass Arceus is best "countered" by stuff that resists its STAB and does not mind status. Dialga and Heatran hate the uncommon Earthquake but destroy it otherwise...Steel Arceus is another option. Yveltal can also take status without getting TOO crippled. If you can get it in for free, Mega Gengar destroys this as you well know. Mention Lugia/Ho-Oh (fck Stone Edge)/a host of other Pkemon that obviously check this effectively.

Other Options

OK, I have been dying to get to this section because I feel that Grass Arceus has access to a very neat move that almost everyone is ignoring. On sets that use Stone Edge and/or Earthquake, Grass Arceus will not want to run a nature that lowers Attack. Unfortunately, its STAB move of choice on the main set(either Grass Knto or Judgment) means that Grassceus cannot carry a -Special Attack nature either and, being a support Pokemon, it cannot afford to run a nature that compromises its bulk. So how can you pick an ideal nature on a Pokemon that needs all of its stats intact? There is an answer to this dilemma: a -Special Attack nature with BULLET SEED over Grass Knot. Bullet Seed deals an average of 87.5 damage per turn and hits Ubers such as Kyogre and Palkia on their weaker Physical side. Though the threat of a low roll means that Bullet Seed is not a terribly reliable move, it at least it possesses 100% accuracy unlike Rock Blast or Pin Missile. Bullet Seed also has some utility. It has a 50% chance to OHKO unsuspecting lead Smeargle and has a 100% chance of killing Deoxys-A, meaning it can only attack once or set up one hazard. It also breaks Substitutes in case you are up against something like SubCM Kyogre (hi Hack). I feel that Bullet Seed at LEAST deserves a mention in Other Options. Grass Arceus can even run a Swords Dance set, though it will never break common walls such as Giratina and Lugia so it's suboptimal.

Grass Arceus has some other tools at its disposal as well. Magic Coat is somewhat viable on almost anything that has access to it, as it can anti-lead Smeargle and Deoxys formes as well while ambushing the likes of Darkrai and Toxic users. It is really hard to fit onto Grass Arceus's already crowded movepool though. Ice Beam goes well with Grass Knot as it gives Grass Arceus a way to hit Gliscor and Landorus-T since Grass Knot does not hit them hard at all. It also OHKOs Rayquaza, though that is an uncommon sight nowadays. Otherwise, it's mediocre, but DOES have additional use as a coverage move on a Calm Mind set that I feel merits discussion (though CM Grassy requires a shitton of support in this metagame). Tailwind and Trick Room can benefit certain team archetypes. Finally, mention Perish Song on stall teams to prevent the "last Pokemon standing sweep" that sometimes plagues those teams. You already talked about Ice Beam, but mention these other moves because Grass Arceus has a LOT at its disposal...it simply can't find the room to fit them most of the time.
 
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Manaphy said:
Considering you're usually running Scizor this really isn't that important
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No, Scizor is a shitty defoger as Defog further reinforces its 4MSS. When running Scizor+Grassceus you essentially have to run Bullet Punch and Pursuit and you still need Toxic and Roost for obvious reasons- if you don't run Toxic when having two Ho-oh weak mons like that you are in for a world of pain, and Roost is usually mandatory on Scizor anyway. So where is the room for Defog on Scizor?

It also breaks Substitutes in case you are up against something like SubCM Kyogre (hi Hack).
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cmon sweep, GK Arceus-Grass just rapes sub CM Kyogre anyway since those never run Ice Beam and GK will break the sub at like +3. bad example smh
 
No, Scizor is a shitty defoger as Defog further reinforces its 4MSS. When running Scizor+Grassceus you essentially have to run Bullet Punch and Pursuit and you still need Toxic and Roost for obvious reasons- if you don't run Toxic when having two Ho-oh weak mons like that you are in for a world of pain, and Roost is usually mandatory on Scizor anyway. So where is the room for Defog on Scizor?
Click to expand...
Scizor- Defog/Pursuit/Roost/Bullet Punch
Grassceus- GK/Stone Edge/Thunder Wave/Recover
And please also consider the fact that you have four other team members.

+1 to most of what sweep said too
 
Bullet seed only averages 79.2 bp and only do more then 75bp 1/3 of the time so it probably doesn't deserve a mention.

I would have the set like this:
move 1: Grass Knot / Judgement
move 2: Recover
move 3: Will o Wisp / Toxic
move 4: Defog / Stone Edge

As sweep said Judgment have some nice advantages so it probably deserves a slash, especially with Lando-T on a lot of teams.
Im almost always using WoW to hit steels that loves to switch in. Scizor, Aegi, Zong, Klefki
I you are running Defog it pairs really well with Def Ho-Oh who can handle opposing Ho-Ohs so you can skip Stone Edge
 
Fireburn said:
You can drop the Judgment slash since Manaphy (the Pokemon) isn't really relevant anymore.

You can mention TTar as a Pursuiter too since it checks Ho-Oh, just mention it's much less reliable cuz Focus Blast.

You can mention Max HP/Max SpD Calm as a backup EV spread, it lets you have a backup Xern check with TWave if Scizor gets DBonded attempting to Pursuit Gengar.
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At least for HpFire less Grassceus it might matter that GrassKnot is a contact move and therefore triggers Iron Barbs (and Rough Skin).
 
kingmidas If you could get the main set fixed up (find qc on IRC if needed) and have the overview, checks counters, and other options sections all out of wip (so bascially everything but the second set for now) by tomorrow that would be really helpful for me. We are going to have the new dex live soon and need at least a place holder skeleton. (oh and if you could jump ahead and format the checks and counters section like you see in the index that would be even better)
 
Melee Mewtwo said:
kingmidas If you could get the main set fixed up (find qc on IRC if needed) and have the overview, checks counters, and other options sections all out of wip (so bascially everything but the second set for now) by tomorrow that would be really helpful for me. We are going to have the new dex live soon and need at least a place holder skeleton. (oh and if you could jump ahead and format the checks and counters section like you see in the index that would be even better)
Click to expand...
Yeah sorry, been too busy lately to get it done, I'll get it done hopefully in the next 2 days.
 
Ah, don't worry about it then. You can take your time with it, I'll just have a temporary skeleton put up until this analysis is fleshed out and finished.
 
This is what I had typed up as placeholder for the dex, take from it what you will.

Overview
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- An awkward mix of good and bad
- Typing allows it serve as a check to Kyogre as well as other major metagame threats
- At the same time, the typing leaves it vulnerable to other very important threats like Mega Gengar and Mega Blaziken
- Because the weaknesses outshine the advantages, Grass Arceus requires heavy amount of team support

Support
########
name: Support
move 1: Judgment / Grass Knot
move 2: Recover
move 3: Will-O-Wisp
move 4: Defog / Stone Edge
item: Meadow Plate
nature: Timid
evs: 248 HP / 144 SpD / 112 Spe

Moves
========

- Judgment is a consistent STAB that will hit Darkrai and Landorus-T a lot harder than Grass Knot but Grass Knot is 120 base power against a large majority of the metagame
- Recover allows Grass Arceus to remain healthy
- Will-O-Wisp complements well with Grass-type STAB as it burns resists like Zekrom and Klefki, it also lets Grass Arceus to serve as a check to physical threats like Mega Kangaskhan and Extreme Killer Arceus
- Defog clears hazards for the team
- Stone Edge helps with the weakness to Ho-Oh
- Thunder Wave also pairs well with Judgment and Grass Knot but it's useless against threats like Klefki and Zekrom on top of paralysis being generally unhelpful on the types of teams that Grass Arceus is found on
- Earthquake can help KO Mega Gengar as well as get some decent damage on Blaziken and Zekrom but is otherwise fairly specialized and takes from Arceus's bulk
- Toxic allows Grass Arceus to serve as a check to CM Electric Arceus amongst other things but it has poor synergy with Arceus's Grass-type STAB and is easily punished with nearly any Steel-type.

Set Details
========

- Speed evs are just enough to outspeed Garchomp and Palkia with the rest poured in Special Defense to better check Kyogre
- Use 248 HP / 72 Atk / 80 SpD / 112 Spd with a Hasty nature if opting for Earthquake

Usage Tips
========

- Play very carefully when you see a Mega Gengar. You should be using Pursuit support with Grass Arceus but burning Gengar can still help with Destiny Bond shenanigans.
- Grass Arceus is 2HKO'd by Choice Specs Kyogre's Water Spout so you will have to intimidate the healthy Kyogre with Arceus's Grass-type STAB and Recover on the predicted switch or attack it to weaken an aggressive Kyogre that tries to predict your Recover.
- Status like Toxic and Paralysis will heavily impact Grass Arceus's ability to check threats so make sure to scout sets for Toxic


Team Options
========

- Pursuit. Mega Gengar is way too dangerous to risk running Grass Arceus without Pursuit support from Scizor or Tyranitar.
- Tyranitar also has a Mega forme that makes it an excellent check to Ho-Oh, another pokemon that preys on Grass Arceus.
- Blaziken can easily setup on Grass Arceus so it's good to have multiple checks to it like Kyogre, Landorus-T, or Lugia.
- Klefki and Ferrothorn have an easy time coming in to Spike on Grass Arceus while threatening to cripple it with Toxic. Burning them as they come in helps but running a Rapid Spin user will help even more.
- Cleric support from Sylveon or Xerneas will help with Grass Arceus's weakness to status


Other Options
########

- A mono attacking set with Refresh and Calm Mind is interesting in such a status heavy metagame but Grass is a very poor type offensively.


Checks & Counters
########

**Shadow Tag**: Mega Gengar destroys Grass Arceus with STAB Sludge Wave. Gothitelle has no difficulty setting up on it while Wobbuffet doesn't have to do much to transform Grass Arceus into total setup fodder for a sweeper.
**Fire-types**: Both Ho-Oh and Blaziken fear next to nothing from Grass-Arceus while they can hit back very hard with their powerful STAB attacks. Blaziken can also use Grass Arceus as a free Swords Dance making it very difficult to check.
**Steel-types**: Klefki, Ferrothorn, Skarmory, and Forretress have no in switching in on Grass Arceus and setting up layers of Spikes, although burns are bothersome. Dialga can setup SR or go straight for the Toxic. Scizor and Mega Lucario can also destroy Grass Arceus if it doesn't run Will-O-Wisp.
**Yveltal**: Resists Grass-type attacks and destroys Arceus with Oblivion Wing and Hurricane. It dislikes having extra passive damage from Will-O-Wisp on top of a crippled Sucker Punch, though.
**Shaymin-S**: Double resists Grass Arceus's STAB and barely has to try when flinch haxing with Air Slash. Can safely spam Substitute to block whatever status Arceus may have.
**Poison Arceus**: Can setup a Calm Mind sweep on Grass Arceus without difficulty.
**Kyurem-W**: Resists Judgment and Grass Knot while hitting back very hard with STAB Ice Beam.
**Reshiram**: Not bothered by much short of Stone Edge while Blue Flare is very threatening to Grass Arceus.
**Status**: Toxic and Paralysis prevents Grass Arceus from staying in and abusing Recover. Burns aren't as troublesome but the passive damage can still rack up quickly.
 
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0- Atk Arceus-Grass Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Gengar: 182-216 (69.4 - 82.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

0 SpA Arceus-Grass Earth Power vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Gengar: 158-188 (60.3 - 71.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Not to mention Grassy will likely go Hasty with EQ. Earthquake also hits Heatran and Aegislash harder than Earth Power. You miss out on Dialga but that's p negligible.
 
^ they also both do the exact same amount to support Arceus factoring the -Atk nature (not like it matters just a 4HKO when super effective)
 
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