Archen (QC 3/3)

[Rowan]

Overview
########

-Unique typing allows it to take on many threats such as: Bunnelby, fletchling and other flyers
-Good stats - gigantic attack, decent Speed + usable defenses
-Defeatist stops this thing from being a nuke.
-Access to SR AND Defog - only viable thing to get this

Support
########
name: Fast Support
move 1: Stealth Rock
move 2: Defog / Rock Slide
move 3: Acrobatics / Rock Slide
move 4: Earthquake / U-turn
ability: Defeatist
item: Berry Juice
evs: 76 HP / 156 Def / 76 SpD / 196 Spe
nature: Jolly

Moves
========

-SR + Defog is great hazard control
-Acro is main STAB, fantastic once BJ is used
-Rock Slide is optional to hit opposing Flying-Types harder (especially Defoggers). Also can be used when you still have BJ
-EQ hits Pawniard who might want to switch into Defog.
-U-turn is fantastic for momentum
-EQ hits incoming Mag/Pawn
-If Rocks or Defog aren't needed, you can put another move over them

Set Details
========

-Max speed gives it 17 - ties with Mienfoo, outspeeds Jolly Pawniard and non-timid Chinchou
-EVs: 76 HP is SR Number
-156 EVs to take on Physical flyers better
-76 SpDef ??? (might move these to attack)
-BJ is BJ, stops defeatist

Usage Tips
========

-fast pivot - come in on flying types like fletch, set up rocks/use defog
-meant for hazard control and to check things
-can check many things slower due to its high attack and speed.
-keep away from priority which could put it below 50%

Team Options
========

-something to take steel, water and electric-types.
-Chinchou takes on Mag, chinchou, staryu
-fighters can take on pawniard who is a pain, especially if not running EQ
-Munchlax can take Ice moves and other sp. atks.
-grass types take on water types, whilst ARchen takes on flying, fire and bug types
-


Defensive
########
name: Defensive
move 1: Rock Slide
move 2: Roost
move 3: U-Turn / Earthquake / Knock Off
move 4: Stealth Rock / Defog
ability: Defeatist
item: Eviolite
evs: 236 HP / 236 Def / 36 Spe
nature: Impish

Moves
========

-Rock Slide is main STAB, hitting everything it needs to
-Roost is necessary for obvious reasons, keeps out of defeatist
-U-turn is fantastic for momentum
-EQ hits incoming Mag/Pawn
-Knock Off is Knock Off, pro move.
-Rocks are rocks
-Defog is Defog
-If Rocks and Defog aren't needed, it's cool to be able to put a slot from move 3 there.
-Acro can be used as a knock off switch in if you like

Set Details
========

Max HP + Def is to be as physically bulkyas possible - avoids 2HKO from LO Adamant Bunnelby's return and avoids 2HKO from Jolly LO Bunny even with Rocks
-36 Speed to hit 14 speed. outspeed Larvesta, ties with RestTalk Chinchou, ties with Adamant Magnemite

Usage Tips
========

-Just Bulky pivot really... comes in to set up rocks/remove rocks and wall shit it's meant to wall.
-strong attacking stat means its still pretty threatening
-typing + eviolite + roost makes it the best flying type wall ever - fletchling and doduo are particular strong threats it can handle.

Team Options
========

-something to take steel, water and electric-types.
-Chinchou takes on Mag, chinchou, staryu
-fighters can take on pawniard who is a pain, especially with defog
-Munchlax can take Ice moves and other sp. atks.
-Foongus and other grass types takes on water types, whilst ARchen takes on flying, fire and bug types
-if not running Defog, it really appreciates Hazard removal support. Staryu and Drilbur help a lot, being able to threaten Rock-types.

Offensive
########
name: Offensive
move 1: Stone Edge
move 2: Acrobatics
move 3: Earthquake
move 4: U-turn / Knock Off
ability: Defeatist
item: Berry Juice
evs: 76 HP / 180 Atk / 196 Spe
nature: Jolly

Moves
========

-Just hard hitting stuff. Acro is cool after BJ
-Stone Edge is powerful STAB
-EQ hits steel type switch ins
-Uturn is preferred for momentum
-Knock Off is just cool in general.
-Rock Slide can be used if the accuracy bothers you since ACro is already the main STAB but power is usually better.

Set Details
========

-Max/Max.
-20 Atk is hella powerful
-Jolly outspeeds 16 speeders like Pawniard, non-jolly mienfoo, non-timid chinchou which is useful.
-Berry Juice means it can get an extra life after defeatist.

Usage Tips
========

-Come in and spam STABs/Uturn basically
-Stone Edge is the STAB move of choice until Berry Juice is consumed... then AcroSpam is very strong.
-Doesn't like to switch in as much especially after Berry Juice is gone - must be kept out of defeatist range at all costs.
-can beat some stuff that it doesn't usually with EQ - such as chinchou and pawniard (unless they're scarfed) which is cool.

Team Options
========

-Needs something to take on bulky waters like Slowpoke
-Chinchou forms nice Volttun Core
-so does magnemite
-something to take priority moves like aqua jet and mach punch and vacuum wave and sucker punch - grass types take on carv or tirtouga who can revenge archen. Trubbish can take on fighting-types and their prio. Fighting-types can take on Pawniard with SPunch
-pawniard can switch into scarf snover/amaura who often revenge and weaken things with knock off
-Needs Defog/ Rapid Spin support - staryu, drilbur can do the job.

Other Options
########

-RoArchen be used to beat Torchic
-sub can be used to activate berry juice on an offensive set
-Rock Polish on an offensive set
-Choice Scarf Switcheroo + u-turn, Stone Edge, EQ
-err... Tailwind?
-err... Head Smash, but defeatist makes this dumb
-Aqua Tail

Checks & Counters
########

STEELS
-Pawniard loves switching into Defog, KOs with Iron Head
-Bronzor beats Knock Off less Archen
-Magnemite (hates EQ though)

WATERs
-Chinchou (offensive outspeeds and KOs though)
-Slowpoke
-Staryu (rapid spin annoys SR variants)
-Carvanha (can't switch in)

PRIORITY
-can often put Archen into defeatist range, Aqua jet especially, but also Mach Punch, Vacuum Wave and Sucker Punch

FASTER THREATS WITH SE MOVES (though they struggle to switch in)
-scarf snover and amaura
-voltorb, elekid pack a punch

-STEALTH ROCK/PASSIVE DAMAGE
-if the offensive set gets into defeatist range it's basically gg for it.

 

[Raichy]

I think you should put Hp Ice in defensive set like a main option, since Archen is a good check for Gligar but If he doesn't use Hp Ice he lose in 1vs1 against Swords Dance set and there are a lot of pokemon that can put SR and use Defog/rapid spin too. Also, maybe saying that Evs needed If you are using Hp Ice should be great because of 30 Ivs in some stats.

 

[Electrolyte]

Yeah we talked it over on IRC. The EV spread should be 80 Def / 76 SDef / 104 Atk / 236 HP. HP becomes 25 (still an SR number) at the cost of 1 point in Atk and 1 point in Def. The added bulk in HP is necessary because it helps you beat things like Yanma, Tangela, and LO MURKROW with MUCH greater ease without sacrificing too much Defensive bulk (ie, you can still beat Gligar quite easily.)

You might also want to slash in HP Ice in the last slot for teams that already have hazard control, as without HP Ice you can't beat Gligar 1 v 1 anyway.

Rock Slide mention for offensive if Stone Edge missing is annoying to you.

In Usage Tips, you should elaborate more on how Archen's unique typing and access to Roost make it one of the best Flying-type counters in LC, and can act as an offensive counter to many top tier threats. Also stress how Roost is necessary to keep it out of Defeatist mode.

 

[Goddess Briyella]

• The spread for the Defensive set should be changed to 80 Def / 76 SDef / 104 Atk / 236 HP for the reasons Electrolyte mentioned, since one of its main purposes with this role is serving as an anti-meta check/counter to a handful of those top tier threats.

• Add a mention of Aqua Tail to Other Options. Head Smash also deserves a light mention, as even though it hurts Archen a lot and often puts it into Defeatist range, the immediate power it provides can be worth it in niche situations in which Archen only has one turn to knock something out before it kills Archen.

• Rock Polish should get a special mention in Other Options, allowing it to run Adamant and become a fearsome physical sweeper, and the sheer amount of Pokemon that Archen walls makes it rather easy to find a time to pull it off. Also give a mention to Switcheroo (to be used in tandem with Choice Scarf and U-turn).

• Tangela and Foongus deserve a mention in Team Options to help deal with the many Pokemon that Archen has trouble with (If it turns out Tangela isn't to be included, still give Foongus a light mention here). Their resistances to Water and Electric make them great teammates.

• Mention in Checks and Counters that Bronzor beats Archen a lot of the time, especially if it doesn't run Knock Off. Also specify that Chinchou can only check the Offensive set if it is Scarfed, as Archen speed ties with it at maximum and has a 50/50 of destroying it with Earthquake otherwise.

• You should probably mention in Checks and Counters that Gligar actually beats these sets if it runs Roost, Taunt, and Knock Off, as it removes Archen's Eviolite and prevents it from Roosting to heal off damage or deactivate Defeatist. Also, there should be a mention of Carvanha overwhelming it offensively and also a light mention of Meditite beating a slightly weakened Archen with Fake Out and Bullet Punch despite Archen's type advantage against it.

Make these changes, and that's QC 1/3

 

[Goddess Briyella]

Maybe choice scarf in oo? According to serebii, this thing gets switcheroo as an egg move. :o It can function as a decentish revenge killer with a scarf. When it's down to 50% or less, it can use switcheroo take away a pokemon's berry juice, effectively crippling it while restoring its own health. Seems okay enough for oo mention imo.

I've already suggested this addition to Other Options in my QC check. :)

 

[Rowan]

Goddess Briyella

Made changes: unsure where exactly HP Ice should go. slot 3 and 4 and basically interchangeable with any of the 7 moves and it's getting a bit slashomaniac.

Also for the formatting of SET NAME, I was following this example (http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/generation-6-analysis-format.3495073/#post-5106815) where it does what I did, are you sure about that?

 

[Goddess Briyella]

Goddess Briyella

Made changes: unsure where exactly HP Ice should go. slot 3 and 4 and basically interchangeable with any of the 7 moves and it's getting a bit slashomaniac.

Also for the formatting of SET NAME, I was following this example (http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/generation-6-analysis-format.3495073/#post-5106815) where it does what I did, are you sure about that?

I think Hidden Power Ice is something that should belong only in Other Options. Gligar can't get past Archen regardless unless it specifically has Swords Dance + Knock Off OR Taunt, Roost, and Knock Off. Hidden Power Ice should not be an option over Stealth Rock or Defog if it's meant to be a defensive set with supportive traits. It can work but is generally inferior when Archen needs to do what it does; teammates can be added to deal with Gligar if the Defensive set is used. It doesn't even OHKO any Gligar set with significant Special Attack investment, especially if it's taken into Defeatist range by Gligar's Knock Off, and once you use it one time the surprise is ruined and Gligar can heal off the damage later with Roost anyway.

That example you're showing me is the same one I'm using, and unfortunately it's confusing a lot of people who are doing analyses. I'm 100% positive that SET NAME above the ######## should always read "SET NAME" as it's a title just like "Overview" and "Checks and Counters" and the actual name of the set should go only with the label below the ######## for each set.

Edit: Corkscrew, I apologize for the confusion. The people who made the template made an error and it turns out that the actual name of the set DOES go both above and below the ######## line, the way you originally had it. The misinformation I got caused me to misinform you and others, and everyone needs to be aware of the appropriate way this is supposed to be done.

 

[Rowan]

edited this removing mentions of yanma (shame that its best niche is gone) and tangela, ready for more QC

 

[Goddess Briyella]

edited this removing mentions of yanma (shame that its best niche is gone) and tangela, ready for more QC

It still walls important threats like Murkrow and Gligar (under most conditions), and this is still worth highlighting! :)

 

[Kavatika]

On the offensive set, you should highlight what kind of things you beat with it that you wouldn't normally. I haven't used offensive Archen before so I don't know what these would be, and I'm sure there's something significant. At least note what it beats in the write-up.

 

[Expulso]

Perhaps mention Spritzee passing Wishes to the offensive set, to keep it out of Defeatist range, in Team Options for that set?

 

[Rowan]

-changed nature in first set to impish, with yanma gone it doesn't need careful and the nature makes no difference with krow. (gligar's knock off is now a 4hko with that nature lol)
-@kavatika, touched upon your point with pawniard and chinchou as examples
-@expulso, I'm not adding spritzee since offensive doesn't like switching into stuff and many things like to hit spritzee with Steel-moves which will KO archen.

 

[dcae]

Honestly HP Ice is essentislly a necessity in order to beat Gligar's offensive sets. It deserves a slash more than Roar imo, which can be relegated to OO, but I guess that kind of fucks with the EV spread.

 

[Rowan]

yeah, i'm not massively happy with the way this analysis is right now, i'll sort it out over the weekend. Basically i'm thinking that roar, EQ adn knock off should just be mentioned underneath with Uturn/hp ice being the only slashes to reduce a bit of slashomania. in the moves i'll expand on how the last 2 slots can basically be a mixture of any of the 7 moves. obvisouly, Hp ice will require an alternate ev spread which i'll need to work out too.
the reason is basically i'm seeing more gligars breaking through archen with SD+knock off and i'm agreeing with dcae about hp ice being necessary. just wanna check if Goddess Briyella would be okay with this change as she's already QC'd it, and if her QC check would still stand.

 

[Goddess Briyella]

yeah, i'm not massively happy with the way this analysis is right now, i'll sort it out over the weekend. Basically i'm thinking that roar, EQ adn knock off should just be mentioned underneath with Uturn/hp ice being the only slashes to reduce a bit of slashomania. in the moves i'll expand on how the last 2 slots can basically be a mixture of any of the 7 moves. obvisouly, Hp ice will require an alternate ev spread which i'll need to work out too.
the reason is basically i'm seeing more gligars breaking through archen with SD+knock off and i'm agreeing with dcae about hp ice being necessary. just wanna check if Goddess Briyella would be okay with this change as she's already QC'd it, and if her QC check would still stand.

I find the slashes in the Defensive set to be appropriate, actually. It can make good use of all the moves listed. You might mention in the Usage Tips segment how the different combinations of moves work, and which ones are best to use together, such as adding that Roar is best used with Stealth Rock. It may seem like the first set is just a bunch of slashes and that it's indecisive, but each move actually serves a very important purpose and will vary by the players' preferences as well as their team compositions:

• U-turn lets Archen serve as an amazing momentum grabber, as Archen walls a lot of key threats and therefore will cause a lot of switches to take advantage of with this move.

• Earthquake rounds out coverage with Rock Slide and prevents Archen from being walled to death and utterly destroyed by Magnemite, a somewhat important enemy.

• Knock Off is Knock Off. It removes items and deals a good chunk of Dark-type damage; a very ideal move for crippling the opposing team. Also notable is that Bronzor walls the combination of Rock-, Flying-, and Ground-type offense, so Knock Off is the only way Archen has a chance of getting around it.

• Roar breaks up Baton Pass chains as well as other setup sweepers that are common and very dangerous in the current metagame, while also putting the opponent in a situation they did not plan for by making them switch to a random Pokemon. Used with Stealth Rock, this can be quite effective for racking up hazard damage while walling important threats such as Murkrow and Gligar (variants without SD/Knock Off).

• Defog is incredible for clearing the battlefield of hazards that can be annoying to teammates, and Archen's unique typing provides it ample opportunities to use this move without risking much.

I recommend that the slashed moves remain and that these details are outlined and spoken about in the Set Details/Usage Tips, as all of these options are useful depending on what your team needs, as stated above. I don't mind if you c/p the content from my points either.



As far as Hidden Power Ice goes, a Gligar with Swords Dance and Knock Off will beat Archen regardless if it switches in attempting to act as a counter. If Gligar uses Swords Dance as Archen comes in, +2 Knock Off will take Archen to Defeatist range and HP Ice will end up doing disappointing damage, while also leaving Archen in KO range for another hit from Knock Off. This particular Gligar set is increasing in popularity largely due to the fact that it gets around Archen, and so this point should be highlighted in the writeup.

If you're wanting to use Hidden Power Ice to threaten other offensive Gligar sets, this will require, first and foremost, a totally new spread with a nature that does not hinder Special Attack, so Impish and Jolly are out. Also you'll have to note that not only do you not have a useless stat to take away from (meaning you'll probably have to use a nature like Naive that lowers Special Defense), but you'll have to use less EVs in overall bulk, Speed, and/or Attack. As far as defensive Gligar sets that run Eviolite, Archen can beat these sometimes if they don't run Taunt (which blocks Roost and locks Archen into Defeatist's offensive burden), but it is not a surefire reliable means of dealing with them. The fact that there are more Gligar sets that Archen CANNOT beat with HP Ice than there are ones that Archen CAN beat, in addition to my other points, leads me to advise that HP Ice should remain in Other Options and not a slash on the main sets. I'm definitely open to discuss this, but consider my views on this first.

 

[Darkamber8828]

236 HP / 100 Atk / 76 Def / 4 SAtk / 76 SpD Relaxed is basically the same thing. Jolly Tirtouga is 12 speed, but underspeeding it isn't that bad as you can hit them with Knock Off after they Shell Smash on a predicted switch. What else has 13 speed? Oddish / Bellsprout outside of sun is the only thing I can think of.

Nobody runs Taunt.

And SubSD is still the most popular set, by a significant margin.

It's definitely one of Archen's selling points that it can wall SubSD Gligar, at least for me. Even if Knock Off Gligar beats it, that's okay, because SD + Knock Off Gligar beats everything except Shellos anyway.

 

[Rowan]

Updated now Gligar is gone, no more HP Ice. Yanma banned, Gligar banned, this thing is just getting less and less useful :/

 

[Darkamber8828]

i'd think it'd take gligar's place as a SR/Defog/U-turn/knock off bulky flying mon, no? it's also gonna be happier now that everything isn't using ice moves anymore (like krow).

 

[Pancham]

Updated now Gligar is gone, no more HP Ice. Yanma banned, Gligar banned, this thing is just getting less and less useful :/

Archen is still a decent answer to Murkrow for offensive/balanced teams.

 

[Rowan]

made further edits to this, changed EV spread for like the 50th time. please check it

 

[Orphic]

Mention the fantastic utility movepool in overview, defog and stealth rock are really handy and this is the best (possibly only) pokemon in the tier with access to both. As well as U-turn for momentum.

 

[macle]

qc 2/3

no need for ice since gligar is gone

 

[Heysup]

A set that's been popping up everywhere is this one:

SET NAME
########
name: Fast Support
move 1: Stealth Rock
move 2: Defog
move 3: Acrobatics / Rock Slide
move 4: Earthquake / U-turn
ability: Defeatist
item: Berry Juice
evs: 76 HP / 76 Def / 156 SpD / 196 Spe
nature: Jolly

If Murkrow gets banned this spread is pretty irrelevant but it survives any Murkrow attack and Berry Juices back up to full HP, meaning it gets a free Defog or SR.

 

[Kavatika]

make sure to replace SET NAME with the actual set name bro

 

[Pancham]

Now with Murkrow's banning, your set is using out of date EVs. I have been using a set with the Def and SpD switched with an Impish nature, which gives it Eviolite numbers. Basically: 236 HP / 20 Atk / 156 Def / 76 SpD with Impish. I have seen other people use maxed Def, but I prefer having Eviolite numbers due to my OCD. The 76 SpD also allows it to switch in on Sp hitters more easily, like Porygon.

Now, for moves:
First slot : I have been using Acrobatics over Rock Slide, and it has been going exceptionally well. Personally, I think Acrobatics / Rock Slide should be the first slot, but I will understand if you slash Rock Slide before Acro.
Second : Obviously keep it as it is.
Third : Keep it as it is, U-turn is so good.
Fourth : I would switch Defog and Stealth Rock, because Archen is currently the best Defogger in the metagame, easily.