Are Forretress and Ho-oh worth being Stall Team staples?

[Uchiha]

NOTE: That`s not a Forretress or Ho-oh Discussion.

There`s a reason why I don`t think they are as effective as they used to be, it`s HP Fire Giratina-o.

October Statistics

| Giratina-o | Usage | 4414 | 17.2 | (12th on leaderboard)
| Giratina-o | Move | HP-Fire | 22.4 | (6th most used move)

EDIT: November Statistics

Giratina-o | Usage | 7344 | 27.1 (7th most used Pokemon)
Giratina-o | Move | HP-Fire | 54.0 (most used move)
Well, I said the truth.

That may not seem like much, but I bet Giratina-o will be one of the top 10 most used Pokemon next month, and more than 30% of them will be running HPFire.

In short, lately I only get to spin late game (most of the time, and that`s not because I suck).

Ho-oh isn`t quite as effective with Rocks up, and Forretress never gets to spin (and if you get to Spin, you only Spin away SR).

There are some other options worth considering over Forretress.

Skarmory - It can`t lay down Toxic Spikes, but it can manage to lay down more layers of Spikes, takes no Spikes damage, and can actually Wall some stuff.
Roserade - It`s 60/55/105 isn`t exactly bulk, but it isn`t that frail, either. It`s 90 base Speed lets it outspeed many Pokemon in the Uber environment Sleep one of your opponents Pokemon, lay down Toxic Spikes, and most importantly absorb them (spinning fails). Synthesis in the sun is amazing. In the Sun it can easily switch into Choice Specs Kyogre`s Water Spouts.
Modest Choice Specs Water Spout Vs. Roserade (in the sun) 657 Atk vs 246 Def & 324 HP (150 Base Power): 108 - 127 (33.33% - 39.20%)

That`s quite a good combination, you are able to lay down way more entry hazards, sleep something and shuffle with Skarmory (and Groudon in my case).

In Ho-oh`s case, you could just use another "Wildcard", without Rocks Ho-oh is just too good, but with SR other things can do it`s job way better.

Feel free to share your thoughts.

 

[Hood Dream]

I really dont think roserade will be as useful in ubers as much as forretress once was. But, maby it could work? I know were going to see a decrease in toxic spikes usage, but meh. i saw someone use HO-HO as a lead PP staller, i forgot who was using it, but it was very effective.

 

[Uchiha]

I really dont think roserade will be as useful in ubers as much as forretress once was. But, maby it could work? I know were going to see a decrease in toxic spikes usage, but meh. i saw someone use HO-HO as a lead PP staller, i forgot who was using it, but it was very effective.

Roserade will NEVER be as useful as Forretress once was, but it can replace Forretress in the current metagame.
i saw someone use HO-HO as a lead PP staller, i forgot who was using it, but it was very effective.
Post that in Jibaku`s Ho-oh discussion, that thread is solely about Stall teams, and a PP staller Ho-oh lead doesn`t seem that effective, I`d rather lead with a Groudon.

 

[twash]

Skarmory - It can`t lay down Toxic Spikes, but it can manage to lay down more layers of Spikes, takes no Spikes damage, and can actually Wall some stuff.

Arguably Skarmory is harder to play because of its neutrality to Ice attacks, and weakness to Electric attacks, both of which hit deal Skarmory severe damage to the point where it is harder to get those couple of extra layers of Spikes than Forretress. Roost and Whirlwind somewhat makes up for it, but in my experience Skarmory is harder to get in as easily as Forretress, thus getting less opportunities to Spike.

Roserade - It`s 60/55/105 isn`t exactly bulk, but it isn`t that frail, either. It`s 90 base Speed lets it outspeed many Pokemon in the Uber environment Sleep one of your opponents Pokemon, lay down Toxic Spikes, and most importantly absorb them (spinning fails). Synthesis in the sun is amazing in the sun. In the Sun it can easily switch into Choice Specs Kyogre`s Water Spouts.

So for it to take a Kyogre's Water Spout you need to find a way to get in Groudon, and then go to Roserade? I don't want my Groudon to take a huge HP loss just so I can get Roserade into play. Alternatively, I guess you could sacrifice something and bring Groudon in that way, but that's still counterproductive. The only Roserade set I am considering trying out is a Choice Scarf set, just to hit things hard with Leaf Storm while still being able to sleep things with Sleep Powder. But let's face it, it's got severely tough competition from Shaymin-S.

Modest Choice Specs Water Spout Vs. Roserade (in the sun) 657 Atk vs 246 Def & 324 HP (150 Base Power): 108 - 127 (33.33% - 39.20%)

That`s quite a good combination, you are able to lay down way more entry hazards, sleep something and shuffle with Skarmory (and Groudon in my case).

The damage calc makes it look better than the situation is because if I am facing a relatively fast paced team with Specs Kyogre I want to get my (Toxic) Spikes down as early as possible, and that seems a bit lame if I have to switch in Groudon first. In the same vein I could argue that Omastar was useful (Modest Specs Kyogre fails to 2HKO specially defensive Omastar in the sun), but ultimately it is lacklustre as a defensive Spiker. Sleep Powder is nice...but then, a lot of Uber players carry a Sleep Talk Pokemon paired with faster Pokemon (helps deal with other threats like Darkrai).

So when it comes to Spiking, I still think Forretress is the current best, and deserving of being a staple. From experience, I find it much easier to get into play. I tended not to keep my Forretress in on Giratina-O anyway, because the resistances it has are so useful.

I still have yet to use Ho-oh, but I never find it any more difficult to deal with than say, Taunt Mewtwo.

 

[Uchiha]

I wouldn`t let Forry in against Electric attacks, so that weakness isn`t that much of a deal. Yes, Forretress can take Ice type attacks better.

Modest Scarf Ice Beam vs max/max Skarmory 438 Atk vs 262 Def & 334 HP (95 Base Power): 114 - 135 (34.13% - 40.42%). Forretress does that better.

Skarmory can switch in on any of Garchomps attacks, bar Band Fire Fang in the sun, and set up hazards (Forretress can only switch in on Outrage).

Skarmory has roost, that`s awesome.

Skarmory can switch in on RP Groudon (often a huge threat to stall teams), and support Groudon (without Flamethrower) and set up hazards.

It`s not like that Darkrai can set up a NP and without putting you asleep.

So for it to take a Kyogre's Water Spout you need to find a way to get in Groudon, and then go to Roserade? I don't want my Groudon to take a huge HP loss just so I can get Roserade into play. Alternatively, I guess you could sacrifice something and bring Groudon in that way, but that's still counterproductive. The only Roserade set I am considering trying out is a Choice Scarf set, just to hit things hard with Leaf Storm while still being able to sleep things with Sleep Powder. But let's face it, it's got severely tough competition from Shaymin-S.

How is Roserade getting competition from Shaymin-S?
Roserade is supposed to lay down T-Spikes, sleep something and to absorb T-Spikes, it can often switch in with Synthesis and Mewtwo-like special defense (with 252 HP EV`s).

 

[twash]

I wouldn`t let Forry in against Electric attacks, so that weakness isn`t that much of a deal. Yes, Forretress can take Ice type attacks better.

I did (purposely) say that it helps Forretress get the one or two extra layers that Skarmory fails to get, simply because sometimes its worth sacrificing Forretress against offensive teams (likely to have Thunder) to get an extra layer down...we all know how useful that extra 6.25% damage can be. Skarmory can't take those kind of hits to get the extra down. Scarf Kyogre actually fails to 2HKO Leftovers Forretress (but Stealth Rock ruins that).

Skarmory can switch in on any of Garchomps attacks, bar Band Fire Fang in the sun, and set up hazards (Forretress can only switch in on Outrage).

If you're running the 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SDef Careful Skarmory you highlighted above, there's a 97% chance for Adamant Band Garchomp to 2HKO you without sun (and Leftovers in play). Jolly is a 25% 2HKO with Leftovers, guaranteed with Stealth Rock.

Skarmory has roost, that`s awesome.

That's why I would run Skarmory over Forretress, if at all (and Whirlwind, to stop Garchomp setting up Swords Dances).

Skarmory can switch in on RP Groudon (often a huge threat to stall teams), and support Groudon (without Flamethrower) and set up hazards.

True, but this is kind of going in circles as Skarmory can take some hits from certain threats, whereas Forretress can take it from others. Top two moves in Ubers are generally Thunder and Ice Beam, though. They're found on a lot more mediocre-hitting Pokemon that Earthquake is at all.

When I see a Skarmory, it's generally getting a layer of Spikes on my switch. From then, I find it easier to stop Skarmory laying further Spikes than Forretress, just because a lot of Pokemon tend to carry moves which annoy Skarmory much more.

How is Roserade getting competition from Shaymin-S?
Roserade is supposed to lay down T-Spikes, sleep something and to absorb T-Spikes, it can often switch in with Synthesis and Mewtwo-like special defense (with 252 HP EV`s).

Competition in a Choice Scarf set. Roserade's Timid Leaf Storm is stronger than Shaymin-S' Seed Flare, and although obviously it's a much worse move, the power output is there. Sleep Powder allows it to sleep a multitude of threats, like Latios for example (who can deal huge damage to offensive teams). Plus, it's not Stealth Rock weak...and it absorbs Toxic Spikes whatever set you run.

 

[Uchiha]

I did (purposely) say that it helps Forretress get the one or two extra layers that Skarmory fails to get, simply because sometimes its worth sacrificing Forretress against offensive teams (likely to have Thunder) to get an extra layer down...we all know how useful that extra 6.25% damage can be. Skarmory can't take those kind of hits to get the extra down. Scarf Kyogre actually fails to 2HKO Leftovers Forretress (but Stealth Rock ruins that).

Yes, that can help, sometimes.

If you're running the 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SDef Careful Skarmory you highlighted above, there's a 97% chance for Adamant Band Garchomp to 2HKO you without sun (and Leftovers in play). Jolly is a 25% 2HKO with Leftovers, guaranteed with Stealth Rock.

I said bar Fire Fang.

That's why I would run Skarmory over Forretress, if at all (and Whirlwind, to stop Garchomp setting up Swords Dances).

Roost is amazing in Stall vs Stall battles, and walling Garchomp is invaluable, a Sub + SD Chomp (SD, Sub, Dragon Claw, Earthquake) is quite scary paired with a Roserade, Groudon can generally Roar it out and a scarfer (Palkia, Dialga, Jirachi) can beat it too, he could set up his sub, beat the scarfer, Roserade removes TSpikes, he can come in again hurt Groudon (it gets Roared out) come in again and sweep (I know I am Theorymoning here, but I`ll definitely try it out).
However Skarmory can render it useless.

True, but this is kind of going in circles as Skarmory can take some hits from certain threats, whereas Forretress can take it from others. Top two moves in Ubers are generally Thunder and Ice Beam, though. They're found on a lot more mediocre-hitting Pokemon that Earthquake is at all.

When I see a Skarmory, it's generally getting a layer of Spikes on my switch. From then, I find it easier to stop Skarmory laying further Spikes than Forretress, just because a lot of Pokemon tend to carry moves which annoy Skarmory much more.

Those guys probably didn`t use it correctly.

Competition in a Choice Scarf set. Roserade's Timid Leaf Storm is stronger than Shaymin-S' Seed Flare, and although obviously it's a much worse move, the power output is there. Sleep Powder allows it to sleep a multitude of threats, like Latios for example (who can deal huge damage to offensive teams). Plus, it's not Stealth Rock weak...and it absorbs Toxic Spikes whatever set you run.

Note: Skarmory can often play mindgames with Forry users, they send in Forry it gets Whirlwinded away, they keep in their pokemon, you get Spikes.

Skarmory will never be comparable to the old Forretress, it should be a pokemon to consider when building a Stall-Team in today`s metagame.

 

[Anachronism]

Something that hasn't been mentioned yet is Skarm's 4x bug resist.

Scizor is becoming a force in the Uber metagame (much moreso than non-scarf Chomp), and I am surprised that no one has mentioned this. Skarm can much more easily double switch into it and lay down some spikes.

Skarmory also has torment, which could be useful in ensuring that all of these scarf/specs pokes never have the opportunity to hit it.

Clearly Skarm has problems when compared to Forretress, but it is worth mention that it does some things better, and it can check/wall things that forretress can't.

Groudon, Garchomp, and Scizor may not be as popular as the myriad of Thunder/Ice Beamers, but they are certainly popular enough to warrant mention, and if your stall team has the special attackers covered, then it would be better to use Skarm over Forry.

This discussion really has to do with the team the spiker is being utilized on. They both have their merits

 

[mtr]

If you are building a team around hazards, phazing and forcing switches, Skarm is the better choice. But Toxic Spikes are horribly deadly in Ubers, and since Skarm can't set them up, Forry is the obvious choice for most teams, and all stall teams. After all, Toxic Spikes are how stall teams win without waiting for Blissey to run out of PP.

Compared to OU, however, phazing in Ubers is neither as potent nor as prevalent, due to the fact that attackers simply hit really hard. Therefore, concocting a decent phazer-oriented team could take some work.

 

[Darkmalice]

Compared to OU, however, phazing in Ubers is neither as potent nor as prevalent, due to the fact that attackers simply hit really hard. Therefore, concocting a decent phazer-oriented team could take some work.

The best way to phaze with Skarmory is to phaze them on the switch, seeing that the opponent usually swaps out of Skarmory immediately. Before doing this with phazing, however, you have to get up your Spikes in a similar manner to Forretress - send Skarm/Forry in on an attack it takes little damage from, or does not fear, and set up as they swap out. Except that they come in on slightly different Pokemon e.g. Skarmory can switch in on Earthquakes, whilst Forretress can switch in on Giratina-O with Thunder and without HP Fire.

Unlike Forretress, Skarmory can be both physically and specially defensive in terms of EV investment, whilst Forretress should only be specially defensive. This is thanks to Skarmory's Ground-type immunity, which allows it to switch in on Groudon (and Garchomp's Earthquake) with ease, whilst Forretress won't get much done if it switches in on either of the two attacks. With Skarmory being physically defensive, it has better synergy with Blissey and Latias, common Pokemon on stall teams. Skarmory beats Groudon and Garchomp (they rarely use Fire-type attacks), whilst Blissey and Latias cover most of Skarmory's weaknesses. And with Roost, Skarmory can cover Blissey's/Latias' weaknesses for a longer time period than Forretress (as well as covering more of their weaknesses).