Ariados (QC 3/3) (GP 2/2)

SteelEdges

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#1
[Overview]

<p>Are you looking for a solid Toxic Spikes user in NU? Keep looking. Ariados is horribly outclassed by Roselia, Garbodor, and Scolipede. It has Insomnia and Sucker Punch, which are things the other three don't, but unless those two tiny niches are absolutely vital to your team, Ariados's terrible stats and mediocre Attack just don't cut it in NU.</p>

[SET]
name: Toxic Spikes
move 1: Toxic Spikes
move 2: X-Scissor
move 3: Sucker Punch
move 4: Baton Pass
item: Focus Sash
ability: Insomnia
nature: Jolly / Adamant
EVs: 120 HP / 252 Atk / 136 Spd

[SET COMMENTS]

<p>Toxic Spikes is mandatory on this set, as it is Ariados's best chance at succeeding in NU. X-Scissor is Ariados's strongest attack, and Sucker Punch provides semi-powerful, if unreliable, priority. It should be noted that Sucker Punch is one of two things Ariados has over the identically-typed Scolipede (the other being Insomnia). Finally, due to a lack of other significant options, Baton Pass is used to try to steal momentum from the opposition, akin to a damageless U-turn.</p>

[ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

<p>The EV spread is used to avoid the 2HKO from Choice Band Sawk's Close Combat after switching into Stealth Rock. The remaining EVs are dumped into Attack and Speed. In terms of team support, Alomomola makes a decent partner as its HP is gigantic and it walls the problematic Kangaskhan. Ghost-types such as Misdreavus block Rapid Spin. Mold Breaker Sawk can OHKO common Stealth Rock leads, such as Golem, Piloswine, and Gigalith. As grounded Poison-types absorb Toxic Spikes upon their switch, offensive Ground- or Psychic-types are recommended as partners. Golurk in particular can spinblock and use its STAB Earthquake to damage the opposition.</p>

[Other Options]

<p>Ariados has few other viable options. Spider Web is a highly interesting move, but Ariados struggles to make use of it with its bad stats. It gets the always-irritating Swagger and Foul Play combination, but Liepard is preferable for that. Shadow Sneak provides an alternate, weaker priority. Night Shade is intriguing for damaging Steel- and Poison-types but has little use beyond that. Agility can be used for a Baton Pass or full offense set, but it's outclassed severely in both jobs.</p>

[Checks and Counters]

<p>Most Poison-types, include Garbodor and Scolipede, can absorb the Toxic Spikes and completely wall Ariados. In terms of rival entry hazard setters, Golem and Gigalith can use Rock Blast to OHKO Ariados through its Focus Sash. Kangaskhan can use Fake Out to disable Ariados's Focus Sash, then KO with its powerful Normal-type STAB. Ariados is heavily reliant on its Focus Sash and is frail nonetheless, so two powerful hits from just about anything that aren't resisted should do the job.</p>

[Overview]
  • Outclassed almost completely by Scolipede and Garbodor as hazard setter
  • Insomnia and priority in Shadow Sneak and Sucker Punch give it a minuscule niche as a lead
  • Stats are abysmal, save for an average Attack
  • Some handy resists (Fighting, Grass) but they're also shared by Scolipede so w/e
  • Some interesting support moves in Spider Web and Disable
  • Kind of a piece of shit
  • Beedrill is cooler, too
[SET]
name: Toxic Spikes
move 1: Toxic Spikes
move 2: X-Scissor
move 3: Sucker Punch
move 4: Toxic / Baton Pass
item: Focus Sash
ability: Insomnia
nature: Jolly
EVs: 120 HP / 252 Atk / 136 Spd

[SET COMMENTS]
  • Toxic Spikes is obvious; despite the popularity of Scolipede, Skuntank, and Garbodor, they can still wreck some teams
  • X-Scissor is this mon's strongest STAB
  • Poison Jab provides additional STAB, but Toxic can nail Pokemon that levitate/are Flying-type
  • Sucker Punch provides semi-powerful if unreliable priority and can save Ariados from a potentially fatal attack
  • Sucker Punch and Insomnia are the only things Ariados has over Scolipede
[ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]
  • EVs are used to switch into SR and avoid the 2HKO from CB Sawk's Close Combat (thanks Lolkomori), though a max speed set is certainly an option
  • Wish support is appreciated due to the difficulty of getting two layers of Toxic Spikes. Alomomola can make a great partner, passing huge Wishes with its enormous HP and walling the problematic Kangaskhan
  • You'll need a spinblocker to keep Toxic Spikes up, such as Misdreavus
  • Mold Breaker Sawk can OHKO common Stealth Rock leads, such as Piloswine, Golem, and Gigalith
  • Grounded Poison-types absorb the Toxic Spikes, so offensive Ground- or Psychic-types are recommended to KO them. Golurk can spinblock and use its STAB Earthquake on Garbodor
[Other Options]
  • As cool as a move Spider Web is, it's really not worth it on Ariados
  • It gets Swagger + Foul Play, but just use Liepard
  • Shadow Sneak
  • Night Shade
  • Agility, on an offensive set or Baton Pass, but outclassed
  • pure Baton Pass (Hone Claws, Agility)
[Checks and Counters]
  • Most Poison-types, including Garbodor and Scolipede, can absorb the Toxic Spikes and completely wall Ariados
  • In terms of rival hazard setters, Golem and Gigalith can use Rock Blast to KO Ariados beyond the Focus Sash
  • Kangaskhan can use Fake Out to disable Ariados's Focus Sash then KO with its powerful Normal-type STAB
 
Last edited by a moderator:
#2
Not sure Ariados needs a set dedicated to toxic spikes considering how outclassed it is. Since it's only for jynx really, I'd say it should be in OO. I'm not a QC, so take my advice lightly
 

Worldtour

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#5
My thoughts on this
  • Ariados now gets X-Scissor which is better than Bug Bite.
  • Agility + Baton Pass is kinda useless when you have Ninjask around to be honest. Even though Ariados can absorb Toxic Spikes, Ninjask is immune to them and spikes, gets the same noteworthy resistances as Ariados (4x to Fight, Grass), is much faster even if it doesn't invest so it can run defensive EVs (iirc it outruns Jynx with 0 or something) can run Swords Dance, and can raise its speed by using... anything. I honestly think its an OO set, especially when Toxic Spikes isn't really that common and Scolipede or something probably likes getting passed onto.
  • I personally feel like the lead set should be TSpikes/XScissor/Poison Jab/Sucker Punch or Shadow Sneak but I'd leave that up to QC (aka consider it but dont feel like you have to) Protect isn't too good because the only thing that uses Fake Out is Kanga, and Flyers or Levitators (which iirc only includes Weezing who is immune to Toxic and Eelektross) don't enjoy taking a Poison Jab or Sucker Punch most of the time so Toxic isn't great either. I agree its not great, but its probably the best it can do. I like Sucker Punch because its twice as strong as Shadow Sneak and therefore actually does damage.
  • Partners look a bit thin. Good partners would probably include stuff like a Spinblocker, something to take out Rock leads and Piloswines (multihit moves) like Sawk, something that can take down Poison types which would destroy its purpose, and something that walls Kangaskhan (you could use Mola here to make use of Wish support which you mentioned) and possibly a few others.
  • expand checks and counters and include specific stuff. Garbodor and Scolipede wall it and absorb T-Spikes. Magic Coat Bastiodon just destroys it. Anything with Rock Blast kills it through its Sash. Kangaskhan can Fake Out + do anything. There are more but just saying "anything with a Super Effective Attack or Steel-types" is too vague.
 

tennisace

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#8
I think the set should be:

-Toxic Spikes
-X-Scissor
-Sucker Punch
-Toxic / Baton Pass

Poison Jab doesn't really do much for you. It's better to try and cripple Flying-types that try and ko you than it is to try and hurt you. Baton Pass works pretty decently as a ghetto U-turn like Musharna since Ariados is so damn slow. Really you should emphasize that the only thing Ariados can do kind of ok is set up Toxic Spikes and even then it sucks ass.

Please don't add Twineedle, only 5% of Jynx use Focus Sash to begin with.

Make the changes and I'll stamp!

<SteelEdges> I do have enough time to say I made the changes


1/3
 
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Lolk

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#9
I think having 120 HP evs is more beneficial as it allows ariados to switch in on rocks and avoid the 2HKO from CB sawk's close combat. I don't see any reason to stay in on golem in the first place.
 

soulgazer

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#10
I think having 120 HP evs is more beneficial as it allows ariados to switch in on rocks and avoid the 2HKO from CB sawk's close combat. I don't see any reason to stay in on golem in the first place.
This. You could also use an Adamant nature to do better damage to Musharna with X-Scissor and do more damage with Sucker Punch before getting KO.
 

SteelEdges

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#11
Tennisace said he is fine with Lolkomori's spread, and I think it seems decent, so I will be changing the EV spread to his.
 
#12
Please don't add Twineedle, only 5% of Jynx use Focus Sash to begin with.
That 5% is irrelevant, Ariados is supposed to act as a lead most times, and I don't believe that only a 5% of attacking leads Jynx use Focus Sash. Do you have that stat?

I may be wrong, as the concept of lead doesn't exist at all. So if you use Focus Sash Jynx to act as a lead in your team, and you see an Ariados, then you don't send Jynx, right?

On a side note I mentioned Twineedle back when the main option that was in the analysis was Bug Bite, which was bad, so Twineedle wasn't that bad then compared to Bug Bite. I agree that X-Scissor is better most of the time.
 

soulgazer

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#13
That 5% is irrelevant, Ariados is supposed to act as a lead most times, and I don't believe that only a 5% of attacking leads Jynx use Focus Sash. Do you have that stat?

I may be wrong, as the concept of lead doesn't exist at all. So if you use Focus Sash Jynx to act as a lead in your team, and you see an Ariados, then you don't send Jynx, right?

On a side note I mentioned Twineedle back when the main option that was in the analysis was Bug Bite, which was bad, so Twineedle wasn't that bad then compared to Bug Bite. I agree that X-Scissor is better most of the time.
Don't forget Ariados can beat Lead Jynx anyway by picking it off with Sneak/Sucker Punch after bringing it to its sash.
 

tennisace

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#14
Jynx leads in 1.28078% of battles. Only 5% of total Jynx are Focus Sash. I can't say that all Jynx that are leading are/aren't Focus Sash, but what I can say is that the number of Focus Sash Jynx that lead is between 0% and 5% of all Jynx, which, once again, is a stupidly small percent. The point is totally moot REGARDLESS since Jynx can just Lovely Kiss turn 1 and not let you Twineedle or set up Tspikes or die a quick and painful death.

edit: soulgazer kindly reminded me ariados has insomnia, so disregard that last bit
 
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#15
I'd advocate Night Shade in at least OO. It is its best option against any incoming steel / poison types that will beat it (not that anything doesn't already do that)
 

tennisace

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#16
The problem with Night Shade is that in reality, Ariados has only one turn to survive most times. That turn should be spent setting up Toxic Spikes and disregarding opposing Steel/Poison-types. You could mention it in OO but it won't make a difference ever.
 
#17
yeah mention it in OO, but mention that is has extremely limited usage.

2/3 I really don't have any issues with it, its not like Ariados would ever be used ever
 

soulgazer

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#19
Small nitpick: You slash Jolly on the set but you don't mention it anywhere, even worse is that 136 Speed evs with Jolly doesn't make you outspeed anything important and you even get outspeed by Alomomola by one point. I would honestly simply remove it, but if anyone feels Jolly could be useful, make an AC mention.
 
#20
Make Baton Pass the only move in the fourth slot, there are like zero occasions I'd ever use Ariados Toxic. Put it in AC.

Cut the mention of Wish support, Ariados isn't living any longer with it. Though you can keep Alomomola as a partner, since it can abuse T-Spikes with Wish + Protect.

QC Approved 3/3 SteelEdges

Ariados sucks.
 

scorpdestroyer

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#22
You have to include your paragraphs in between <p></p> HTML tags. Your AC is has 3 patagraphs which are imo unnecessary; combining them into one should be enough. And size this is ready for GP, you should change the title by adding [GP: 0/2] and the tag to (Copyediting) to reflect that. And post in the NU C&C index and the GP queue that this is ready for GP checks
 
#25
I think this is ready for amcheck if I just add in what scorp has said to do during it??
Add Del Comments

For a short analysis this was actually very fluffy, a whole rewrite may be in order, I will take it over if needed as well.
[Overview]
<p>Are you looking for a solid Toxic Spikes usersetter in NU? Keep looking., since Ariados is horribly outclassed by Roselia, Garbodor, and Scolipede. It has access to Insomnia and Sucker Punch, things that the other three don't, but unless those two tiny niches are absolutely vital to your team, Ariados's (please please PLEASE never use "s's" as that will never be correct, and it annoys me every time I see it >_>) terrible stats and mediocre Attack (You basically said "mediocre Attack" when you said "terrible stats") just doncan't cut it in NU.</p>

[SET]
name: Toxic Spikes
move 1: Toxic Spikes
move 2: X-Scissor
move 3: Sucker Punch
move 4: Baton Pass
item: Focus Sash
ability: Insomnia
nature: Jolly / Adamant
EVs: 120 HP / 252 Atk / 136 Spd

[SET COMMENTS]

<p>Toxic Spikes is mandatory on this set, (RC) as it is Ariados's best chance at succeeding in NU. X-Scissor is Ariados's strongest attack, and Sucker Punch provides semi-powerful, (AC) if unreliable, (AC) priority. It should be noted that Sucker Punch is one of two things Ariados has over the identically-typed Scolipede (the other being Insomnia). (You said this earlier) Finally, due to a lack of other significant options, Baton Pass is used to try to stealgain momentum from the opposition, akin to a damageless U-turn.</p>

[ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

<p>The EV spread is used to avoid the 2HKO from Choice Band Sawk's Close Combat after switching into Stealth Rock. The remaining EVs are dumped into Attack and Speed. In terms ofregards to team support, Alomomola makes a decent partner as its HP is giganticbulk is fantastic and it walls the problematic Kangaskhan. Ghost-types, (AC) such as Misdreavus and Haunter, (AC) block Rapid Spin. Mold Breaker Sawk can OHKO common Stealth Rock leads, (RC) such as Golem, Piloswine, and Gigalith. As grounded Poison-types absorb Toxic Spikes upon their switch, offensive Ground- or Psychic-types Pokemon are recommended as partners. Golurk in particular can spinblockblock Rapid Spin and use its STAB Earthquake.</p>

[Other Options]

<p>Ariados has few other viable options. Spider Web is an highly interesting move, but Ariados struggles to make use of it with its lackluster bulkbad stats. It gets the always-irritating Swagger and Foul Play combination, but Liepard is preferable forbetter at that. Shadow Sneak provides an alternate, weaker priority. and Night Shade is intriguing for damaging Steel- and Poison-types, (RC) but has little use beyond that. Agility can be used for a Baton Pass or fully offensive set, but it's outclassed severely in both jobs.</p>

[Checks and Counters]

<p>Most Poison-types, includesuch as Garbodor and Scolipede, can absorb the Toxic Spikes and completely wall Ariados. In terms of rival hazard setters, Golem and Gigalith can use Rock Blast to OHKO Ariados through its Focus Sash.and Kangaskhan can use Focus SashFake Out (I assume this is what you meant) to disable the Focus Sash, then KO with its powerful Normal-type STAB. Ariados is heavily reliant on theits Focus Sash, and is frail nonethelessanyway, so two powerful hits from just about anything that aren'tit doesn't resisted should do the jobKO.</p>