Well couldn't it be. You guys have banned shadow tag, arena tag, pure power, huge power, parental bond, and most of all wonderguard. Banning imposter on chansey and blissey would be a pretty good step to completely neutering pure hackmons.
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Ladder Balanced Hackmons
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Not really relevant, they were banned for being unhealthy, the fact that an ability is common in a banlist(and in a loose sense) doesn't necessarily make it unhealthy(see magic bounce).
You can say ban magnet pull and chansey wouldn't lead to endless battles, but that's not the problem.
The main issue is that 2X of the same move disables struggle and thus leads to a forced infinite battle. AFAIK running 2x of the same move gives NO benefit, seems like a pretty simple solution to just restrict that. Literally only affects the game in a positive way, even if slightly "complex".
Am I missing something?
Moldbreaker + Knock off will shut down your PP
Well To be honest here. Magic Bounce is not the best option in Balanced Hackmons because you've cut wonderguard, you've cut the essence of what hackmons is, and most of all in classic hackmons you must choose an ev spread instead of just the nature. Think about it a little more. Ban imposter on chansey/blissey, ban prankster on chansey/blissey, ban transform on chansey/blissey or just ban them both outright and you get a more 'balanced' hackmons right? It wouldn't be that hard. People would start to use the next best thing. But nothing at 700 hp level. It's not the point.
Apa is correct because you deter people from using imposter when you don't have a 700 hp pool to work with. It would definitely make it more balanced. You don't have an argument against it.
xJownage
Even pendulums swing both ways
You aren't really answering the question we must answer to justify banning something: Is [Imposter] unhealthy for the metagame? The answer is no, it isn't, it is a balancing factor that prevents a possible myriad of extra bans with MG Sash SS normal type (espeed) spam and the like. It is a limiting factor in the metagame, but forces you to work much harder to teambuild and makes the metagame much more balanced than it otherwise would be. This tier could easily become "who is the first to set up espeed mon" rather than the more balanced metagame we have atm. Imposter is key to the BH metagame and its here to stay, you will eventually adjust like every BH player does. And believe me, once you adjust, it won't be that hard. If you go back 60 pages or so I was arguing for it to be banned as well, but experience proves why its not unhealthy, but rather, is healthy for the metagame.
Lcass4919
The Xatu Warrior
are you fucking kidding me...
you don't even have a solid argument yourself so why do i even bother? the point of balanced hackmons is not to be balanced, OR to be different from classic/pure hackmons. its to be less centralized around wonder guard and other things that restrict the meta-IN A UNHEALTHY WAY. and why are you blaming US for the ev limit? have we not fucking stated 100 times already that that wasn't anyone's choice? do you think we like the frailty of the meta? verbatim is against banning pokemon in bh, so STOP bringing up banning chansey. and we have all explained 2000 times on why imposter is better to have IN the meta then it is to be taken OUT. this isn't a question on "is it op" its a question of "does banning it help the metagame" which we have answered at least 20 times now within a 2 week basis, its better to have something restricting the meta in a good way, then have a forced playstyle that autowins versus all playstyles and has no definitive counters. so instead of rehashing that same stupid argument we are forced to constantly restate, read the thread to see WHY its not banned. i literally commented on why 2 days ago, on the same page.
i'm sorry for being so harsh, but its just getting fucking annoying at this point. especially when your main point is "you separated yourself from hackmons therefore you should ban chansey"
Just not worth arguing at this point, Lcass4919 , this is why I don't do it much on here anymore cause noone listens or completely ignores you.
Simple fact is it's not getting banned even if we put a vote right now. So look at other options like the double move (which is the real problem), magnet pull (which could potentially become a problem) or dealwithit.jpg
Gengar-Mega used Encore...LOL
At least you admit that you've given up any real consideration of the other side of the argument and are content to parakeet the same line over and over. The fact of the matter is you all know it's broken but like what it does for the meta and you'll never ban impostor or listen to anyone who says you should. There's no point to arguing for a ban--not because it isn't broken but because your community doesn't want to learn to play without her. You're aware of this and thus can afford to argue so confidently in such a lazy way Having the audacity to say the above set has no counters? Please. Anyway you all know how I feel about this but I'm aware of the extent of your community's addiction to impostor so I'll just leave it at this. Flint is right, you should just drop it because you'll never have to worry about actually being right.
Have fun switching your Gengar in when all it takes is ONE prediction to kill your Gengar. I don't see how you can even use Gengar as a counter to tail glow prankster nature power when you can't even switch in reliably on every move. Not to mention, it's not like your Gengar is even going to do anything if you do switch in on a tri attack. All you gain is a delay of your sweep by a few turns.
Did you even READ lcass' post? The other half of it that you glanced over happened to be refuting every single point you people have made. The line saying that we have already explained why imposter is necessary doesn't mean we are ignoring your side. It is a true statement drawing attention to ALL of the points we have made regarding imposter over the last few pages that have gone COMPLETELY UNANSWERED. In making this argument, you are essentially ignoring the other parts of his post, which just serves to prove his point further.
Our community doesn't want to learn to play without her? Once again, it has already been stated several times that without Chansey, the metagame would just be full of set up sweepers that completely destroy any attempt to make a balanced or stall team. Imposter Chansey may be centralizing, but it is the only thing keeping the metagame from becoming all hyper offense on the high ladder. Now, I'd like to see you come up with counters to sets mentioned previously, like prankster tail glow arceus, without using unviable sets that only serve to defeat one thing. And don't forget, this arceus is just ONE example of multiple set up sweepers that imposter serves to check right now. Before you make the point that none of these sets are seen now, so they must be bad, the presence of imposter Chansey ensures that all teams are thought out carefully, and removes the viability of certain threats, which would become extremely prevalent without imposter. On a final note, imposter doesn't hinder creativity from teambuilding at all; it serves to ensure that all teams are planned well and mindlessly made teams with only contrary and simple smash make it nowhere on the ladder, thus promoting diversity.
Tl;dr: 1)You have answered none of our points for imposter, and instead ignore them.
_____2)Without imposter, the only viable bh teams will be hyper offense, and stall or balanced teams will be impossible.
I don't think double move alone is a problem, it's when its combined with trapping that endless battles happen, I'd think the best way to solve the problem is double move + trapping ban or ban all perma-trapping ( Magnet Pull, block etc, not infest or magma storm )
I know.
If anyone brings up "imposter limits creativity" again, let me give you my two cents;
It doesnt.
Infact it promotes it.
Without imposter you can just slap anything you want without any brain use, because you dont get punished for it
With imposter you actually have to think, you know, so it actually has creativity in it.
Like let me give you an exsample from XY days when I was trying to make a fun kyurem-black;
"I want to give refridge kyurem-b big dommage nuke, I know ill give it swords dance" - imposter field day. Was absolutely hell to self tank.
Then I re thought it;
"I want to give refridge kyurem-b big dommage nuke, I know ill give it nuzzle and smelling salt" - and what do you know, it cripples imposter and has support use, it made many people take a choice between "do I want to get OHKO'd or do I just keep it paralyzed" (Ofcourse this set doesnt work aswell due of -ate limits nowdays, and granted, it had its issues aswell against certain mons)
But if imposter wouldn't have been a limiting factor, the first set would've been a no brainer and second one wouldnt have ever excisted in the first place cause I wouldn't have gotten punishment that would've gotten me to rethink.
Infact, I could've just given it belly drum + spiky shield instead, and man, isn't that just so fucking creative, dont you think?
It doesnt.
Infact it promotes it.
Without imposter you can just slap anything you want without any brain use, because you dont get punished for it
With imposter you actually have to think, you know, so it actually has creativity in it.
Like let me give you an exsample from XY days when I was trying to make a fun kyurem-black;
"I want to give refridge kyurem-b big dommage nuke, I know ill give it swords dance" - imposter field day. Was absolutely hell to self tank.
Then I re thought it;
"I want to give refridge kyurem-b big dommage nuke, I know ill give it nuzzle and smelling salt" - and what do you know, it cripples imposter and has support use, it made many people take a choice between "do I want to get OHKO'd or do I just keep it paralyzed" (Ofcourse this set doesnt work aswell due of -ate limits nowdays, and granted, it had its issues aswell against certain mons)
But if imposter wouldn't have been a limiting factor, the first set would've been a no brainer and second one wouldnt have ever excisted in the first place cause I wouldn't have gotten punishment that would've gotten me to rethink.
Infact, I could've just given it belly drum + spiky shield instead, and man, isn't that just so fucking creative, dont you think?
nyan kat, am I to understand that you actually believe lcass when he says that's an unbeatable set sans Impostor? If that's the case you need to think about it a little more. Let's say, for the sake of argument that it actually is an unbeatable set. One thing I fail to understand is how having Impostor in the metagame improves the situation. Now instead of your opponent automatically winning for using it, you automatically win for impostoring it--how exactly is that an improvement? Again the idea that that set has no counters is laughable. I'm not going to go in to all the flaws in your objection to my example of a counter, sorry if you aren't able to understand why Gengar-Mega would beat that Arceus.
The Arceus set is so overpowered that the opponent had to resort to prankster encore Mega Gengar to unreliably check it...LOL
Are you even READING what other people post here?
anyway guys we are kinda falling off topic lol
I was wondering, is the 'draw' command going to be implemented at some point? Is there a forum i am unaware of that is already covering this topic?
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Lcass4919
The Xatu Warrior
you know, i was about to make another post saying how i never said it had no counters, but actually said no consistent counters that appear in the meta(you know, like you can make your unaware cress...but no common sight pokemon would be able to manage it), and then also explain how imposter would alter the scenario, but you really nitpicked my argument again. so i'm just not even going to bother...its just pointless if your going to keep doing this.
HOWEVER, let me educate you on what a counter is: http://www.smogon.com/smog/issue32/checks-and-counters Please refer to this article for my evidence. "Pokémon A counters Pokémon B if Pokémon A can manually switch into Pokémon B and still win every time, even under the worst case scenario, without factoring in hax." ergo, mega gengar is NOT a counter to my arceus set i posted. beating =/= countering, its called checking. get your facts straight.
also, while i'm at it, this is a bit harsh even as a joke. no need to stab people for their opinions.
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What? it's totally a counter
252+ SpA Arceus Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mega Gengar: 136-160 (41.9 - 49.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ SpA Arceus Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Gengar: 152-180 (46.9 - 55.5%) -- 17.6% chance to 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
Prankster M-gar is a great mon. And it's a reliable counter.
Edit: I'm not here to advocate for either side of the argument, and I'll hardly read any of it, but these two statements were something I read and were wrong and stupid respectively.
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Lcass4919
The Xatu Warrior
the problem is your using special defensive mega gengar. which other then being able to outspeed and taunt shit, is vastly inferior to giratina which has like...3x the bulk. and in order to outspeed and encore (i mean, i could easily run taunt over one of the movesets) gengar really needs at least 120 base speed. on top of that being 2hkoed with rocks up counts as a "Worse case scenario" of switching in. its a pretty cool concept, don't get me wrong, but far from a counter especially if it runs speed evs and/or taunt.
Taunt was not in the set you listed, rocks don't do anything when gengar hits recover, I don't disagree that arceus could adapt to this gengar or that giratina could do it better, but the set you posted IS countered by Mgar.
In that hypothetical situation, you shouldn't use the set in the first place because Chansey will cause you to lose. So it forces people to not use sets that they can't deal with themselves.
xJownage
Even pendulums swing both ways
1. He never said there were no counters to that set or to any set, he said there are no or few VIABLE counters. VIABLE. V-I-A-B-L-E. As in, actually useful mons that reliably counter it.
2. Imposter means you get counter-sweeped, so you know what happens? THAT SET ISN'T USED ANYMORE. Therefore those sets go away, because with imposter, using one of those mons means you lose, not win, and because of that nobody will use it.
3. There are so many of these sets possible and Gengar-Mega beats ONE. There are hundreds of mons possible with this type of set and viable coverage, so saying that it has one counter (that isn't even a counter) means its not broken is even more laughable than saying it has no counters at all.
1. We know its broken. Surreeee. We'll never ban imposter. True. We'll never listen to anybody who says we should. Also true. Why? Because these people (you) are wrong. Lets make this a super HO tier full of people spamming tail glow / SS everything and watch shit die. How is this a fun metagame? Because Chansey makes these mons counter-sweep the user's own team, people don't use them.
2. We don't want to learn to play without her? What are you on? If we are without her, THERE IS NOTHING TO LEARN ANYMORE. Setup sweepers: the metagame requires no skill and is completely retarded, so there is no point in us learning anything because its all about who can set up their sweeper the fastest. There is no BH metagame without imposter, there is a bullshit metagame where everything uses shell smash / BD and watches shit die.
3. Addicted to imposter? Arguing in a lazy way having the audacity to say a set has no counters? Do you even know what you are saying anymore? I think you are just spitting out random shit you think is partially insulting because you have no idea how to actually argue your point. We are not addicted to imposter, we want imposter in the metagame. I really don't know how being addicted ever got into your bullshit. Us lazily saying a set has no counters? First off, we say they have no viable counters. Second, we say there are so many sweepers it is impossible to counter them all, therefore the meta would be unhealthy as shit. Third, how are we lazily saying these sets have no counters? We are explaining the severity of the issue and you are refusing to acknowledge the MILLIONS of possible sweeper combinations that people won't use because they result in the user getting swept rather than the opponent. You have 2 choices. Shut up or accept it.
Quit being a complete fucking hypocrite. This is not appreciated, you know. I do not enjoy sitting here watching you insult the players of this community and basically call them ignorant fucks while you act like you are right. You haven't made one argument against the fact that the millions of viable sweepers in a non-chansey meta have no VIABLE counters (and if you mention SDef gengar / Defensive Deo-A again you're a dumbass). You have sat up on your high-hat acting all mighty coming in and acting like you know what you are talking about. Now get the fuck off this thread and quit insulting our intelligence like a fucking 5 year old.
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This is quickly becoming less of a discussion about Imposter Chansey, and more about attacking the other side. Lets not call each other idiots, addicts, hypocrite or whatever other varient. This should be a civil discussion and i don't much like how either side is behaving right now tbh.
As for the whole Gengar/Arceus thing, the Arceus represents the set up spam that would supposedly result from an Imposter Ban. Arceus is not even the the strongest user of that set. Mega Mewtwo Y would easily bust prankster Gengar with that set. This is the inherent problem with an imposter less meta. Yes we can run other things. We do run other things besides chansey btw.
To be safe from set up spam it would be reasonable to assume Prankster and Unaware would be the main counters correct? So offense could resort to Mold Breaker and Magic Bounce set up sweepers. Just use the Prankster to counter the Moldy, and the Unaware to counter the magic bounce right? Well its not that cookie cutter. If you run Prank Giratina, you could easily get torched by moldy MMx with fairy coverage. And it set up all over you unaware right? so it sweeps your team unless you manage to revenge kill it. Yes i do realize this exact situation can occur in the current metagame. But Imposter Chansey is an effective enough deterrent to make sweepers with niche counters too risky to have high success on the ladder.
Is this basically the same argument anti-imposter people have heard since day 1? Yes it is. And i know its not convincing some of you. But your arguments and the way you carry them out aren't convincing us either. We've heard all the anti imposter arguments, and we remain uncovinced it would be better for the metagame. Remember BH doesn't ban things for being stupidly powerful/broken alone. They need to be so broken and overcentralizing that is causes an undesirable metagame (looking at you Assist Groudon). The majority of the community doesn't feel Chansey causes an undesirable metagame. Therefore its never going anywhere.
As for the whole Gengar/Arceus thing, the Arceus represents the set up spam that would supposedly result from an Imposter Ban. Arceus is not even the the strongest user of that set. Mega Mewtwo Y would easily bust prankster Gengar with that set. This is the inherent problem with an imposter less meta. Yes we can run other things. We do run other things besides chansey btw.
To be safe from set up spam it would be reasonable to assume Prankster and Unaware would be the main counters correct? So offense could resort to Mold Breaker and Magic Bounce set up sweepers. Just use the Prankster to counter the Moldy, and the Unaware to counter the magic bounce right? Well its not that cookie cutter. If you run Prank Giratina, you could easily get torched by moldy MMx with fairy coverage. And it set up all over you unaware right? so it sweeps your team unless you manage to revenge kill it. Yes i do realize this exact situation can occur in the current metagame. But Imposter Chansey is an effective enough deterrent to make sweepers with niche counters too risky to have high success on the ladder.
Is this basically the same argument anti-imposter people have heard since day 1? Yes it is. And i know its not convincing some of you. But your arguments and the way you carry them out aren't convincing us either. We've heard all the anti imposter arguments, and we remain uncovinced it would be better for the metagame. Remember BH doesn't ban things for being stupidly powerful/broken alone. They need to be so broken and overcentralizing that is causes an undesirable metagame (looking at you Assist Groudon). The majority of the community doesn't feel Chansey causes an undesirable metagame. Therefore its never going anywhere.
Kingslayer, thanks. You're right--we should try to be civil about this. You're also right that not everyone uses chansey--especially in lower ladder. And I'm quite thankful for that. I challenge more players to stop using her.
Cacti, you make an excellent point. It absolutely does take creativity to beat chansey. Perhaps that is enough reason to keep her in the meta. That said, when people say chansey lowers the creativity of the meta, they mean using her doesn't take much skill or thought. One thing you may have overlooked here is that beating setup without her takes creativity too--a lot more than just having a chansey.
Lcass, ok let's look at this in terms of counters. How many OU pokemon does Arceus counter? How many BH pokemon does chansey counter?
xJownage I never meant to insult anyone. Sorry if it seems like I did. I have an opinion that's different than yours and sure I think I'm right. But I understand that I obviously could be wrong and never meant come across as arrogant. I think that lcass, donkeys, cacti, flint and several others who have weighed in on this are great players and have lots of respect for them, we just disagree on this issue.
Anyway I'm going to leave this with roughly the same sentiment that flint expressed and I restated. It really doesn't matter who is right because the community is never going to ban chansey so there is little point discussing it. I simply challenge you all to avoid using her for you own sakes. Winning without chansey is a lot more satisfying in my experience.
Cacti, you make an excellent point. It absolutely does take creativity to beat chansey. Perhaps that is enough reason to keep her in the meta. That said, when people say chansey lowers the creativity of the meta, they mean using her doesn't take much skill or thought. One thing you may have overlooked here is that beating setup without her takes creativity too--a lot more than just having a chansey.
Lcass, ok let's look at this in terms of counters. How many OU pokemon does Arceus counter? How many BH pokemon does chansey counter?
xJownage I never meant to insult anyone. Sorry if it seems like I did. I have an opinion that's different than yours and sure I think I'm right. But I understand that I obviously could be wrong and never meant come across as arrogant. I think that lcass, donkeys, cacti, flint and several others who have weighed in on this are great players and have lots of respect for them, we just disagree on this issue.
Anyway I'm going to leave this with roughly the same sentiment that flint expressed and I restated. It really doesn't matter who is right because the community is never going to ban chansey so there is little point discussing it. I simply challenge you all to avoid using her for you own sakes. Winning without chansey is a lot more satisfying in my experience.
Lcass4919
The Xatu Warrior
not to call you out or insult you or anything, but thats a pretty bad comparason, imposter isn't like common pokemon sets, and personally, it is probably better to compare ditto in say, Little cup, then it is to arceus in ou. the main difference is imposters ability is entirely in your hands, unlike arceus which you have no say in what it can potentially run. and i agree it would probably be a bit too much for LC to handle ditto. It would be very limiting for a normal meta to have to adapt to imposter, since unlike bh, where everything is basically smeargle on steroids, they are limited on what they can or cant run as it is, which is both a blessing and a curse, because thankfully, everyone cant run smashpass in nu, but at the same time, they cant opt for steam eruption over scald-or something like that. thankfully ditto is frail as shit, so it cant really do much without a scarf.
this....this i actually agree with entirely. sometimes i see people relying too much on chansey or even shedinja(and people know my love of breaking people who rely on sheddy), although i admit i DO run imposter chansey and shedinja sometimes, i also can say i don't rely on chansey/shedinja for anything other then a "setup sweeper check/pivot" half the time my imposter only gets sent out once or twice in a battle, mainly because my main team handles them alone. and other times i do rely a bit on chansey when i'm forced to take on a pokemon i'm not used to facing and will overwhelm me. however, i do make sure every few teams i take off chansey (actually, iirc all of my #1 teams never ran chansey...shedinja however is another story lmao) and i put on ways to check setup spam, like mega ray, or sheddy or something. all in all, i also challenge people not to use chansey...
and i challenge people not to use shedinja as a counter e_e because then your practically giving me the win.
Honestly killing shedinja is like the most satisfying thing to do in BH its like an instant feel good when a foe's team suddenly falls apart cause their sheddy died
Not use Imposter or Sheddy? Well, that's me already most of the time. It does pretty much force using Unaware or Prankster to deal with set-up sweepers, a lot of offensive pressure to prevent set-up, or a lot of momentum denial to stop them from getting going. With none of those, it's pretty much GG if the opponent gets off a Shell Smash. And generally, you need at least two of the above.
And on that note, I can't see Imposter being removed from BH as is. Maybe if Gen VII gifts us with more Pokemon and tools to deal with set-up sweeping it might be possible. But right now, it'd cause way too much damage and disruption and it'd require a lot of changes. At best, everyone would be forced to, well, see the above paragraph and throw Sheddy into the mix.
A tier like BH could maybe be made Imposterless if built from the ground up, possibly using the OU banlist as a base along with certain set-up moves and abilities being banned from the get go. But that wouldn't be BH, it'd be a different sort of Hackmons.
Edit: Oh, and unrelated, but someone said they saw a Gen V video of one of my test teams losing to someone with a Mbounce Latios on YouTube? I forget who they were, hence the public request here for a link since I'm curious.
And on that note, I can't see Imposter being removed from BH as is. Maybe if Gen VII gifts us with more Pokemon and tools to deal with set-up sweeping it might be possible. But right now, it'd cause way too much damage and disruption and it'd require a lot of changes. At best, everyone would be forced to, well, see the above paragraph and throw Sheddy into the mix.
A tier like BH could maybe be made Imposterless if built from the ground up, possibly using the OU banlist as a base along with certain set-up moves and abilities being banned from the get go. But that wouldn't be BH, it'd be a different sort of Hackmons.
Edit: Oh, and unrelated, but someone said they saw a Gen V video of one of my test teams losing to someone with a Mbounce Latios on YouTube? I forget who they were, hence the public request here for a link since I'm curious.
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