Ban Leppa berry on a set with any move that can heal the opponent?
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Ladder Balanced Hackmons
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This will barely work, the only way to stop this strategy is to ban Leppa Berry, 2 of the same moves and a Struggle Clause, banning Leppa Berry is not a good idea because it has legitimate uses.
You could argue that special Kangaskhan was a legitimate use of Mega Kangaskhan in OU that wasn't broken. You could also argue that Huge Power in BH had a legitimate use of powering up Pokemon whose stats just weren't as high as they should be. Both of these things were banned from their respective metagames.
"It has legitimate uses" is a terrible, terrible argument that should have no place in a tiering discussion. Don't pussyfoot around a broken aspect of the game because you want to use it for "legitimate" reasons.
As for my mostly uneducated opinion (I'm really bad at XY BH):
ban Leppa, ban all trapping (to be honest if Mega Gengar weren't a Mega I'd push for banning it in Doubles), ban two of the same move, and ban Heal Pulse. Feel free to respond to this, but it doesn't really mean much.
The very significant difference between your examples and what is being discussed is those things were actually broken while these bans are being discussed simply for the sake of being discussed since OU recently banned the move combination that ends with this sort of thing. Notice how everybody forgot about the thread about this last gen until the endless battle clause was implemented. Of course, the OU bans didn't really matter there because there's no actually viable set that uses the banned combination of moves.
Balanced Hackmons has a ton of ways to do this meaning that banning all of the ways to do this for such a dumb gimmick that isn't even seen on the ladder (at times where it's not being discussed and shown to people there's almost no one doing it) becomes a difficult task if you're trying to affect the tier as little as you can. Your ban suggestion, while I know you said yourself was just something you put out there and doesn't mean much, is an example of how complicated this would have to get to terminate the strategy altogether. Not to mention very viable abilities and moves that aren't limited to obscure sets such as magnet pull and arguably mean look in your case (and probably magnet pull in every ban suggestion that actually remembers the magnet pull ingrain aqua ring set from hell) end up becoming banned for absolutely no reason.
Is it really worth hurting the tier this much to stop a strategy that nobody really uses and has a small chance to work if you're up against it in the first place?
If anyone can find a ban list that affects the tier in a very limited way, I'll be fine with that. But at the moment I really don't see why viable sets should be banned just so this non-existent strategy can be removed.
Leppa berry has fun uses, such as endless metronome cannon, which does work in BH sometimes and causes a little wtfuckery.
I'm gona say:
Make a struggle clause.
x amount of struggles in a row for immident tie/win/lose situation.
It's about most reliable way without making people who like gimmicks pissed off.
and honestly endless battles are bit more rarer anyway, they were a bigger thing in OU with funbro (rip ;_;7)
I'm gona say:
Make a struggle clause.
x amount of struggles in a row for immident tie/win/lose situation.
It's about most reliable way without making people who like gimmicks pissed off.
and honestly endless battles are bit more rarer anyway, they were a bigger thing in OU with funbro (rip ;_;7)
Like I said, ban Healing Pulse and duplicate moves on the same Pokemon. While it doesn't cover everything, it has zero impact on real strategies and it also kills the most obvious methods. A struggle clause can be added to hit a large number of the less obvious ones, but that's less pressing since I don't think I've seen a method that doesn't rely on Healing Pulse or duplicate moves.
I believe a much simpler solution to this issue than any banlist is implementing another clause, the Stalemate Clause.
This could be when two Pokemon are out of the field for an extended period of time, such as 100 turns, which forces a Draw. In my experience with watching the endless battles (I haven't been perma-trapped before but it's been close) there isn't any switching going on. Once I was able to realize that say, Lugia was the trapping mon, then I could work around it well, such as by switching into a Magic Bounce mon or a mon with Volt Switch. This would cover most of the issues that are going on, and even if people did try to stall for 99 turns and then switch, attempting to set it up again, a random counter for the number of turns could be placed, such as the 0.8x to 1.0x multiplier for standard damage.
What do you guys think? This would force Draws instead of endless battles, the trolls would no longer be satisfied and the endless stall could very well vanish from BH.
This results in the problem that there could be a legitimate reason to keep two 'mons out on the field for such a large amount of time. Say, PP Stall Shuckle trying to stall out a Shedinja with Baton Pass and Ice Shard. It would take forever, but that is a match that would end. Eventually.
PP Stall is a viable (if insane, time consuming, and rather unreliable) strategy, and Harvest Leppa is basically the cornerstone of said strategy. Banning Leppa breaks this strategy in half. There are others that I know of, but none quite so prominent. Last-pokemon stallfests are also subject to stalemate by that rule even if one would win by virtue of more PP, or more health.
A 100 turn limit dosen't really help anything. A certain number of Struggles then that pokemon is automatically KOed, or something similar would probably be better. (I have no idea if this is actually possible, so don't kill me for it)
PP Stall is a viable (if insane, time consuming, and rather unreliable) strategy, and Harvest Leppa is basically the cornerstone of said strategy. Banning Leppa breaks this strategy in half. There are others that I know of, but none quite so prominent. Last-pokemon stallfests are also subject to stalemate by that rule even if one would win by virtue of more PP, or more health.
A 100 turn limit dosen't really help anything. A certain number of Struggles then that pokemon is automatically KOed, or something similar would probably be better. (I have no idea if this is actually possible, so don't kill me for it)
True, there could be the case but I'd still argue that it could be Draw worthy, as nothing is really happening. Your example of trying to out PP a shedinja without switching doesn't hold up, because you said Baton Pass. Baton Pass switches out Shedinja, therefore breaking my clause and resetting the count. Standard Shedinja's run with:
Endeavor 8 pp
Ice Shard 48 pp
Recycle 16 pp
Switching move (pp doesn't matter)
Clearly this adds up to less than 100 pp. Plus the clause could be 150, or higher.
You're right that banning Leppa takes that strategy away, but with the Stalemate clause there is no need for bans.
I didn't think about that, for 1 against 1. I think that most of the time it wouldn't break 100 turns, but in some rare cases where people are running SR, Spikes and Rapid Spin on both of their last Pokemon this could result in a tie. Honestly 100 turns without switching is a really long time and I wouldn't be opposed to a tie if that happened to me in game, 1 vs 1.
Well I don't know if you've seen any of those infinite battles but 100 turns most definitely would help in every single one I've seen.
Edit: Thanks CactusCacti! Struggle Clause could be useful with a few other things like two of the same moves banned along with Leppa gone (thanks Adrian :p).
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Fling + Leppa doesn't unfortunantly work.
If you try recycle after fling, it will fail.
I have tested this several times.
If you try recycle after fling, it will fail.
I have tested this several times.
Oh gotcha! I'm pretty sure it worked in Gen V, so I just assumed. xD
Just like trying to recycle after Knock Off.
On a different note, I don't think something like this is in the thread yet:
Yveltal @ Leftovers
Ability: Unaware
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SAtk / 252 SDef / 252 Spd
Naive Nature
- Baton Pass
- Knock Off
- Heart Swap
- Oblivion Wing
Stops most non-Kyurem boosters cold, steals their boosts then either attacks them back or passes said boosts to something more worthwhile. Knock Off is the strongest Dark attack around, and is one of the most useful moves in general. Oblivion Wing is for recovery, and to use any Special boosts that might get sent your way.
About the only non-Kyurem boosters that give it trouble (That I can remember) are MM2X/Y with relevant coverage moves. As this can work as a check to something Impostoring your boosts, make sure to keep this in mind when giving your 'mons coverage moves. This is, of course, discounting Mold Breaker boosters.
On a different note, I don't think something like this is in the thread yet:
Yveltal @ Leftovers
Ability: Unaware
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SAtk / 252 SDef / 252 Spd
Naive Nature
- Baton Pass
- Knock Off
- Heart Swap
- Oblivion Wing
Stops most non-Kyurem boosters cold, steals their boosts then either attacks them back or passes said boosts to something more worthwhile. Knock Off is the strongest Dark attack around, and is one of the most useful moves in general. Oblivion Wing is for recovery, and to use any Special boosts that might get sent your way.
About the only non-Kyurem boosters that give it trouble (That I can remember) are MM2X/Y with relevant coverage moves. As this can work as a check to something Impostoring your boosts, make sure to keep this in mind when giving your 'mons coverage moves. This is, of course, discounting Mold Breaker boosters.
This set doesn't really look consistent, the lack of reliable recovery hurts it and it looks dead-weight against full stall teams. If I were you, i'd use a more useful ability that works great against offense and stall teams alike. Also, most good players will attempt to scout your Yveltal or even stop a sweep.
I said it was an example, but I never said it was the best example. The only other ability that would almost insure you to get a boost off would be Prankster- and while Prankster means you do remove the boost, there's nothing stopping them from boosting again. This set does have problems against Stall, yes, but it's not entirely dead-weight. Knock Off is just as annoying as ever, even if only as a one-shot use.
Depending on the typing synergy on your team, I'd recommend Umbreon or Mega Gyarados as a defensive Dark-type Unaware over Yveltal as they both have better bulk and are not weak to Kyu's STAB. Yveltal could perhaps run an offensive Unaware set, however.
Also, Pranksters usually use Topsy Turvy, which means they have to boost multiple times to get back to where they were. And if the opponent has Bounce, then they can just force them out with Parting Shot. Or the Prankster can just straight up Destiny Bond or Grudge the sweeper in question.
Also also, Knock Off is not the strongest Dark-type attack around since it only inflicts it's BP 80 hit once per opponent, barring Sticky Hold and Multi-type Plateceus. It does, however, have more than enough utility to warrant using it over Crunch unless the mon in question needs Crunch's consistently higher power.
Also, Pranksters usually use Topsy Turvy, which means they have to boost multiple times to get back to where they were. And if the opponent has Bounce, then they can just force them out with Parting Shot. Or the Prankster can just straight up Destiny Bond or Grudge the sweeper in question.
Also also, Knock Off is not the strongest Dark-type attack around since it only inflicts it's BP 80 hit once per opponent, barring Sticky Hold and Multi-type Plateceus. It does, however, have more than enough utility to warrant using it over Crunch unless the mon in question needs Crunch's consistently higher power.
The set is sort-of-but-not-really offensive, because it can use either side of the boost spectrum to attack with after stealing a boost, or pass it to something that appreciates it more. Hence both Oblivion Wing and Knock Off.
Knock Off on a first strike is actually the strongest, clocking in at 2.5 BP stronger than Foul Play. (65*1.5 = 97.5) It also uses your own Attack stat, meaning that most things you would be aiming to hurt with it can't reduce the impact by running 0 attack EVs and IVs.
Well, if you're going to compare inconsistent attack moves, then, first, against someone you'd want to Foul Play.
And then against a common wall...
Point being, Foul Play offers superior damage against the targets you want to Foul Play. Knock Off does less to them and also is easily walled after that first hit (and so is Foul Play if they set their IVs and EVs correctly) by just about everything bulky. Hence, Crunch is the best option for consistent, physical Dark-type offense.
252 Atk Yveltal Foul Play vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Kyurem-B: 165-195 (36.3 - 42.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+2 252 Atk Yveltal Foul Play vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Kyurem-B: 330-388 (72.6 - 85.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (This is if Kyu-B used Swords Dance. Since Yveltal is Unaware, it effectively gives Yveltal the boost instead when it comes to Foul Play. I actually put the boost on Kyu-B in the calculator and it spat the result out like this.)
252 Atk Yveltal Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Kyurem-B: 127-150 (27.9 - 33%) -- guaranteed 4HKO, but only if it has Sticky Hold. Otherwise damage is halved on subsequent hits.
252 Atk Yveltal Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Kyurem-B: 105-124 (23.1 - 27.3%) -- 62.1% chance to 4HKO
+2 252 Atk Yveltal Foul Play vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Kyurem-B: 330-388 (72.6 - 85.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (This is if Kyu-B used Swords Dance. Since Yveltal is Unaware, it effectively gives Yveltal the boost instead when it comes to Foul Play. I actually put the boost on Kyu-B in the calculator and it spat the result out like this.)
252 Atk Yveltal Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Kyurem-B: 127-150 (27.9 - 33%) -- guaranteed 4HKO, but only if it has Sticky Hold. Otherwise damage is halved on subsequent hits.
252 Atk Yveltal Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Kyurem-B: 105-124 (23.1 - 27.3%) -- 62.1% chance to 4HKO
And then against a common wall...
252 Atk Yveltal Foul Play vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Giratina: 182-216 (36.1 - 42.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO, but only if they didn't zero-out their Attack IVs/EVs
252 Atk Yveltal Foul Play vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Giratina: 126-150 (25 - 29.7%) -- 0% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery (if they did zero-out)
252 Atk Yveltal Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Giratina: 222-264 (44 - 52.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery, but only if it has Sticky Hold. Otherwise, again, damage is halved on subsequent hits.
252 Atk Yveltal Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Giratina: 186-218 (36.9 - 43.2%) -- 98.8% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Yveltal Foul Play vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Giratina: 126-150 (25 - 29.7%) -- 0% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery (if they did zero-out)
252 Atk Yveltal Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Giratina: 222-264 (44 - 52.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery, but only if it has Sticky Hold. Otherwise, again, damage is halved on subsequent hits.
252 Atk Yveltal Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Giratina: 186-218 (36.9 - 43.2%) -- 98.8% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Point being, Foul Play offers superior damage against the targets you want to Foul Play. Knock Off does less to them and also is easily walled after that first hit (and so is Foul Play if they set their IVs and EVs correctly) by just about everything bulky. Hence, Crunch is the best option for consistent, physical Dark-type offense.
One of the greatest aspects about Knock Off is its huge PP (40) this makes it much better than Crunch in my honest opinion because not only does it Knock Off Leftovers (which makes it tank hits much better) and other items, it also allows you to drain Giratina's PP much more efficiently.
Most Giratina's do not use its attack stat, Foul Play will be doing mediocre damage most of the time.
Most Giratina's do not use its attack stat, Foul Play will be doing mediocre damage most of the time.
Pretty much already said that. :p
Rumors said:
Edit: I only brought up Foul Play because he did. And I did mention it deals terrible damage if they adjust their IVs and EVs correctly.
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Adaptability would be better since the opponent's dark attacks wouldn't also be boosted against you (small bonus, but M-Absol's high attack means it won't like taking Foul Play). It also seems to do slightly more to an opponent.
Using neutral defense Arceus for these calcs:
252+ Atk Dread Plate Adaptability Mega Absol Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Arceus: 180-212 (40.5 - 47.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Dread Plate Dark Aura Mega Absol Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Arceus: 178-210 (40 - 47.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Using neutral defense Arceus for these calcs:
252+ Atk Dread Plate Adaptability Mega Absol Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Arceus: 180-212 (40.5 - 47.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Dread Plate Dark Aura Mega Absol Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Arceus: 178-210 (40 - 47.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Absol-M has the downside of having the approximate defenses of mildy soggy paper. Also, with no way to set up, those coverage moves aren't going to be doing all that much to things with neutral resistance.
Sure, you have a base 80 power move with priority, and three boosts from item, type, and Ability. Said move is also bypassed by not attacking, and even if you do attack, the unboosted hit is not killing anything you need to worry about anytime soon. If you need priority go with Kyu-B or Gigas; Otherwise, use Mega Mewtwo X.
Sure, you have a base 80 power move with priority, and three boosts from item, type, and Ability. Said move is also bypassed by not attacking, and even if you do attack, the unboosted hit is not killing anything you need to worry about anytime soon. If you need priority go with Kyu-B or Gigas; Otherwise, use Mega Mewtwo X.
so I've been playing with silly thing's in the ladder, like really silly (mega gardevoir with item called panties being switched on knock off users to see foe reactions)
but then I had a discussion at one point when it came to imposter when doing silly things and running to someone impostering one of my more "wtf" level sets
Appereantly light ball + pikachu imposter gains the bonuses
So do the rest of the pokemon specific items also give their bonuses on imposter?
Such as Marowak + Thick club imposter getting double attack?
Lati@s soul dew imposter still gaining Spdef + Spatk?
chansey's lucky punch giving the big crit bonus?
I'm semi intrested on these cause they could allow for some intresting case specific offense bonuses that aren't as paper thin as pikachu.
Specially the lati@s soul dew, that could get handy.
but then I had a discussion at one point when it came to imposter when doing silly things and running to someone impostering one of my more "wtf" level sets
Appereantly light ball + pikachu imposter gains the bonuses
So do the rest of the pokemon specific items also give their bonuses on imposter?
Such as Marowak + Thick club imposter getting double attack?
Lati@s soul dew imposter still gaining Spdef + Spatk?
chansey's lucky punch giving the big crit bonus?
I'm semi intrested on these cause they could allow for some intresting case specific offense bonuses that aren't as paper thin as pikachu.
Specially the lati@s soul dew, that could get handy.
Kit Kasai
Love colored magic
It's just like how chansey imposter still gets the boosts from eviolite, isn't it...?
Actually the Light Ball boost is the equivalent of Huge Power's one, and also applies for the Special Attack, which is pretty insane.
The problem with Pikachu is that, because of it's craptastic HP, it's too reliant of winning the speed tie. If it outspeeds, then your opponent might as well ragequit, but if it doesn't, you have basically wasted a teamslot.
It has, however, the advantage over Latias and Marowak of getting the boost on both sides of the spectrum.
+2 252+ Atk Light Ball Refrigerate Pikachu Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Kyurem-B: 720-847 (158.5 - 186.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Refrigerate Kyurem-B Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Pikachu: 360-424 (131.3 - 154.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Loses even vs those who run White Herb if unlucky.
+1 252 SpA Light Ball Pixilate Pikachu Boomburst vs. +1 252 HP / 252 SpD Xerneas: 478-564 (104.8 - 123.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252 SpA Pixilate Xerneas Boomburst vs. +1 252 HP / 252 SpD Pikachu: 240-283 (87.5 - 103.2%) -- 25% chance to OHKO
High chance to win if Quiver Dance. However it loses to Shell Smash if luck isn't on your favor
+2 252+ Atk Refrigerate Kyurem-B Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Pikachu: 360-424 (131.3 - 154.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Loses even vs those who run White Herb if unlucky.
+1 252 SpA Light Ball Pixilate Pikachu Boomburst vs. +1 252 HP / 252 SpD Xerneas: 478-564 (104.8 - 123.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252 SpA Pixilate Xerneas Boomburst vs. +1 252 HP / 252 SpD Pikachu: 240-283 (87.5 - 103.2%) -- 25% chance to OHKO
High chance to win if Quiver Dance. However it loses to Shell Smash if luck isn't on your favor