BH Balanced Hackmons

[Sweet Jesus]

Although I won't vouch for terrain pulse xerneas, I think it should be noted knock off is one of the most tier defining moves right now. With the slight rise of purify/knock off to wreck poison healers and the fact only 2 mons carry a locked item (unless you count rusted shield or you consider genesect or silivaly viable), knock off really becomes one of the hardest moves to counter in my experience. I've surprised my fair share of metronome xerneas with an unexpected knock off and the fact it's a great move on wallbreakers as much as on walls really makes it hard to predict when it will come out and xerneas can't switch-in “safely” on nearly antything that hasn't been properly scouted. Although this isn't a flaw in itself, the fact xerneas is often one of your 2 or 3 best switch-ins to the move makes it dangerous to rely on your item as a win condition as you'll often be switching in xerneas on knock off as soon as your dedicated knock off switch-in is dead or simply a wrong match-up for your opponent's knock off user.

I'd still say pixilate is the best wallbreaker set and metronome is the best item for the set, but when using it, I would fully expect to lose metronome unless I really packed my team with knock off tankers.

Since the xerneas conversation seems to be covered, I'd like to hear opinions on the viability of purify+knock off. I've encountered it against top 5 ladder players and have used it succesfully against top 5 ladder players, but I still have the feeling it's a one time trick and once it's been scouted it becomes a complete waste of a move since it's ridiculously easy to switch into (purify, not knock off). That being said, poison heal giratina is just an utter pain to kill especially with mons that aren't impossible to improof and purify is very very easy to improof. Opinions?

 

[Lunatic Hai]

Although I won't vouch for terrain pulse xerneas, I think it should be noted knock off is one of the most tier defining moves right now. With the slight rise of purify/knock off to wreck poison healers and the fact only 2 mons carry a locked item (unless you count rusted shield or you consider genesect or silivaly viable), knock off really becomes one of the hardest moves to counter in my experience. I've surprised my fair share of metronome xerneas with an unexpected knock off and the fact it's a great move on wallbreakers as much as on walls really makes it hard to predict when it will come out and xerneas can't switch-in “safely” on nearly antything that hasn't been properly scouted. Although this isn't a flaw in itself, the fact xerneas is often one of your 2 or 3 best switch-ins to the move makes it dangerous to rely on your item as a win condition as you'll often be switching in xerneas on knock off as soon as your dedicated knock off switch-in is dead or simply a wrong match-up for your opponent's knock off user.

I'd still say pixilate is the best wallbreaker set and metronome is the best item for the set, but when using it, I would fully expect to lose metronome unless I really packed my team with knock off tankers.

Since the xerneas conversation seems to be covered, I'd like to hear opinions on the viability of purify+knock off. I've encountered it against top 5 ladder players and have used it succesfully against top 5 ladder players, but I still have the feeling it's a one time trick and once it's been scouted it becomes a complete waste of a move since it's ridiculously easy to switch into (purify, not knock off). That being said, poison heal giratina is just an utter pain to kill especially with mons that aren't impossible to improof and purify is very very easy to improof. Opinions?

Koff has always been hella juicy. Whether you're disarming imposter, nerfing a choiced breaker's power, denying a wall passive healing, etc. it's always got some relevant usage in a match. I had a decent amount of fun with a Zacc/Xern core and use PH mons pretty often, so I haven't had too much trouble with playing around koff. While losing metronome does harm your setup, the set's still pretty well rounded and decently strong without it. tldr yeah just bring koff absorbers 4head

As far as purify + koff is concerned, I feel it's going to be more or less stuck as a 'niche' strategy. Not because its effect isn't good or anything, but simply because it's so matchup dependent. PH users are very common and strong, but even though I've used them pretty often myself, at least half of my battles don't see me using it. It's more or less useless outside of crippling PH unless your enemy is running funny Guts or Quick Feet, and I'd argue moveslots in BH are even more important than in other metas, since every single slot can potentially fit any one of many extremely useful/powerful moves. The general good-case scenario with koff + purify is that you trade 2 move slots (or maybe 1, since koff is already so useful on its own) for the ability to cripple one pokemon on the enemy team. Generally, 1 moveslot vs an entire mon is a good tradeoff, with the issue arising when there is no pheal mon present. Tournaments are more matchup-oriented than general ladder play, so I'd say that's where it's best, and is 100% viable there. I'd still say it's viable in ladder, but I'd generally prefer a different setup in most games.

Time to be toxic and run puri-koff + pelican

On the topic of Gira though, anyone have thoughts on offensive yveltal making a comeback? Ho-Oh still fears rend and Yveltal is clapped by Lance, but since Beak is no longer here and slapped onto every offensive mon ever to erase flying types from the face of the earth, Yveltal could be an actual mon again.

 

[shadowpea]

With Guts and Quick Feet making their presence known in the meta, has anyone experimented with Flare Boost? Its basically a special Guts that only work on burns.

Maybe something like this?

Eternatus @ Flame Orb
Ability: Flare Boost
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid / Modest Nature
- Quiver Dance (or you can run an attacking move ig)
- Core Enforcer / Clanging Scales
- Sludge Wave / something else
- Coverage / something else

QD up (or not) and break/sweep the opposing team. This thing is actually really strong, pretty speedy even when unboosted, and bulky enough to take some hits. You'll probably run Blue Flare or Earth Power for your coverage option, though anti-flying options are certainly viable. You can also make Spore/Lovely Kiss work out, because Etern isn't afraid of Bouncers thanks to it being burned already.

A lot of mons prefer other, better abilities, though. Most sweepers like Adaptability or PHeal better, and -ate Boomburst does more damage than what Flare Boost provides. Pheal also give Flare Boost huge competition as an ability that gives pseodu-status immunity with a passive boost. There's also the fact that Pokemon don't like the residual damage burns leave them. Still, like Guts/Quick Feet, I think that Flare Boost might have potential in this meta. What do you guys think?

 

[Lunatic Hai]

With Guts and Quick Feet making their presence known in the meta, has anyone experimented with Flare Boost? Its basically a special Guts that only work on burns.

Maybe something like this?

Eternatus @ Flame Orb
Ability: Flare Boost
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid / Modest Nature
- Quiver Dance (or you can run an attacking move ig)
- Core Enforcer / Clanging Scales
- Sludge Wave / something else
- Coverage / something else

QD up (or not) and break/sweep the opposing team. This thing is actually really strong, pretty speedy even when unboosted, and bulky enough to take some hits. You'll probably run Blue Flare or Earth Power for your coverage option, though anti-flying options are certainly viable. You can also make Spore/Lovely Kiss work out, because Etern isn't afraid of Bouncers thanks to it being burned already.

A lot of mons prefer other, better abilities, though. Most sweepers like Adaptability or PHeal better, and -ate Boomburst does more damage than what Flare Boost provides. Pheal also give Flare Boost huge competition as an ability that gives pseodu-status immunity with a passive boost. There's also the fact that Pokemon don't like the residual damage burns leave them. Still, like Guts/Quick Feet, I think that Flare Boost might have potential in this meta. What do you guys think?

Did some calcs.


252+ SpA Flare Boost Eternatus Core Enforcer vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Ferrothorn: 104-123 (29.5 - 34.9%) -- 100% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ SpA Flare Boost Eternatus Blue Flare vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Ice Scales Zamazenta-Crowned: 140-165 (36 - 42.5%) -- 97.1% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ SpA Flare Boost Eternatus Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Ice Scales Zamazenta-Crowned: 97-115 (25 - 29.6%) -- 0% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ SpA Flare Boost Eternatus Core Enforcer vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Ice Scales Giratina: 186-219 (36.9 - 43.4%) -- 99.2% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Granted, some of these involve scales on some of the bulkiest mons in the meta, but I also did the liberty of making it a modest Etern in both. In conjunction with Blue Flare, Dragon and Poison actually have perfect coverage, and being able to 3hko even fatty scales mons is nice considering that this is before anything like boosts or sleep turns are factored in. I only included the Ferro calc since FF steels are the only thing that can actually resist fire / poison / dragon coverage. FF Magearna would be better handled by EP, but you lose a bit of firepower against Zam that way.

Blue Flare as coverage with STAB seems like the best offensive moveset for Etern (SDL's Mold Breaker SBEVE ran that and it was painful to deal with), and this set seems easier to improof than that since at least enemy Etern won't have the boost from the ability (Etern without any external damage boost is actually not hard to wall at all). Could be fun to build with, though I generally don't like mons that get put on a timer just by existing. Ig this is the same sort of scenario where I'd probably prefer a different Etern set much of the time, but in this case since it actually has some form of crippling opponents or boosting up, it seems a bit more viable.

 

[a loser]

First off, the Sample Teams have been updated! Thank you to everyone who submitted their teams and congrats to those who had their team chosen.

I'd like to talk about something that has recently risen in popularity: Imprison + Transform.
This strategy is not new. I've tried it out and loads of others have played with it because it seems so broken in theory. The basic idea is that you trap your opponent and proceed to click Imprison and then Transform so that the foe cannot switch out and is forced to use Struggle and KO itself.

This is a lot easier said than done, considering in BH you can run pivot moves on anything you want, Ghost-types can't be trapped, and you have to be bulky and/or fast enough to pull this off before you are KO'd by the opponent or at least crippled in some way. Usually low ladder attempts of this strategy use Prankster to speed up the process, but this is not optimal as it is checked by Dark-types and stray Dazzling/Queenly Majesty users.

Enter. I'm pretty sure most of us have encountered something like this by now:
Zacian-Crowned @ Rusted Sword
Ability: Intrepid Sword
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Anchor Shot
- Imprison
- Transform
- Strength Sap / Recover / Taunt / Jungle Healing

Zacian-C differs from "traditional" ImprisonForm users as it has an incredible defensive typing, a strong offensive presence along with blistering Speed, and very solid bulk to top it off. This set is able to straight up eliminate one of All-Out-Attacker Zacian-C's most common checks, Fur Coat Zamazenta-C. By simply existing, Zacian-C baits in FC Zama-C which is trapped on the switch, and promptly Imprisoned and transformed into. While it isn't unheard of, Zama-C normally doesn't run pivot moves so standard sets like Anchor / Spectral / Low Kick / Recover don't really stand a chance here.

The first three moves are all needed, but the last slot is variable depending on the rest of the team. Some sort of recovery is great, as it allows Zacian-C to heal itself without depending on the opponent's moveset, but Taunt is a decent option if you have Wish support from a teammate. Aromatherapy support is great if you can fit it on the team, but Jungle Healing lets Zacian-C cure itself of unwanted status without compromising teammates that could rely on their status.

There are plenty of ways around this set, but it is definitely a pain to face. Ghost-types like Giratina, Aegislash, and Doublade normally have no trouble with this as they can't be trapped. However, without Prankster all of these are slower than Zacian-C and can be locked out of their recovery moves which gets dangerous if their health is low. Setup sweepers like Reshiram, Groudon, and others can KO Zacian-C before it has a chance to transform as well but even these can be played around with Strength Sap or Taunt. Mons with pivot moves are nice to have as they are able to escape Zacian-C before it can Anchor, Imprison, and Transform, but this is really only useful if Zacian-C hasn't already set Imprison and if you have a teammate that actually can check Zacian-C. Shed Shell users are another option to check Zacian-C as they can't be trapped, but any of Zacian-C's five other teammates are more than happy to remove that item.

Other things like chip damage from entry hazards, status, and defensive Poison Heal users without a recovery move can all be used to limit the damage Zacian-C can do in a battle, but even still Zacian-C has the potential to put in work and at least cause problems. Zacian-C seems like the best user of it, but others like Magearna and Xerneas are also capable. Has anyone tried this strategy with other mons? How have you all handled the rise of ImprisonForm?

 

[Sweet Jesus]

First off, the Sample Teams have been updated! Thank you to everyone who submitted their teams and congrats to those who had their team chosen.

I'd like to talk about something that has recently risen in popularity: Imprison + Transform.
This strategy is not new. I've tried it out and loads of others have played with it because it seems so broken in theory. The basic idea is that you trap your opponent and proceed to click Imprison and then Transform so that the foe cannot switch out and is forced to use Struggle and KO itself.

This is a lot easier said than done, considering in BH you can run pivot moves on anything you want, Ghost-types can't be trapped, and you have to be bulky and/or fast enough to pull this off before you are KO'd by the opponent or at least crippled in some way. Usually low ladder attempts of this strategy use Prankster to speed up the process, but this is not optimal as it is checked by Dark-types and stray Dazzling/Queenly Majesty users.

Enter. I'm pretty sure most of us have encountered something like this by now:
Zacian-Crowned @ Rusted Sword
Ability: Intrepid Sword
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Anchor Shot
- Imprison
- Transform
- Strength Sap / Recover / Taunt / Jungle Healing

Zacian-C differs from "traditional" ImprisonForm users as it has an incredible defensive typing, a strong offensive presence along with blistering Speed, and very solid bulk to top it off. This set is able to straight up eliminate one of All-Out-Attacker Zacian-C's most common checks, Fur Coat Zamazenta-C. By simply existing, Zacian-C baits in FC Zama-C which is trapped on the switch, and promptly Imprisoned and transformed into. While it isn't unheard of, Zama-C normally doesn't run pivot moves so standard sets like Anchor / Spectral / Low Kick / Recover don't really stand a chance here.

The first three moves are all needed, but the last slot is variable depending on the rest of the team. Some sort of recovery is great, as it allows Zacian-C to heal itself without depending on the opponent's moveset, but Taunt is a decent option if you have Wish support from a teammate. Aromatherapy support is great if you can fit it on the team, but Jungle Healing lets Zacian-C cure itself of unwanted status without compromising teammates that could rely on their status.

There are plenty of ways around this set, but it is definitely a pain to face. Ghost-types like Giratina, Aegislash, and Doublade normally have no trouble with this as they can't be trapped. However, without Prankster all of these are slower than Zacian-C and can be locked out of their recovery moves which gets dangerous if their health is low. Setup sweepers like Reshiram, Groudon, and others can KO Zacian-C before it has a chance to transform as well but even these can be played around with Strength Sap or Taunt. Mons with pivot moves are nice to have as they are able to escape Zacian-C before it can Anchor, Imprison, and Transform, but this is really only useful if Zacian-C hasn't already set Imprison and if you have a teammate that actually can check Zacian-C. Shed Shell users are another option to check Zacian-C as they can't be trapped, but any of Zacian-C's five other teammates are more than happy to remove that item.

Other things like chip damage from entry hazards, status, and defensive Poison Heal users without a recovery move can all be used to limit the damage Zacian-C can do in a battle, but even still Zacian-C has the potential to put in work and at least cause problems. Zacian-C seems like the best user of it, but others like Magearna and Xerneas are also capable. Has anyone tried this strategy with other mons? How have you all handled the rise of ImprisonForm?

Although this can be a decent strategy, it's very match up dependant and relies on your opponent forgeting to prepare for it because it rarely deals significant chip damage to it's counters, especialy since the first move you're throwing out is usualy imprison. This makes it basicaly a deadweight mon as long as a counter is alive. Both Cramorant and Giratina's mere presence is enough to completely shut down imprison transform sets often regardless of giratina or cramorant's actual set.

Because of this, I always prepare for imprison transform but never use it. I have considered a spirit shackle + fighting move + imprison + transform + regen + griseous orb giratina-O to actualy deal decent damage to opposing giratina and kill normal types immune to the locking move, but I still feel it's rather gimmicky especially since you don't reach the 50% damage on giratina.

 

[Quantum Tesseract]

Although this can be a decent strategy, it's very match up dependant and relies on your opponent forgeting to prepare for it because it rarely deals significant chip damage to it's counters, especialy since the first move you're throwing out is usualy imprison. This makes it basicaly a deadweight mon as long as a counter is alive. Both Cramorant and Giratina's mere presence is enough to completely shut down imprison transform sets often regardless of giratina or cramorant's actual set.

Because of this, I always prepare for imprison transform but never use it. I have considered a spirit shackle + fighting move + imprison + transform + regen + griseous orb giratina-O to actualy deal decent damage to opposing giratina and kill normal types immune to the locking move, but I still feel it's rather gimmicky especially since you don't reach the 50% damage on giratina.

If you click imprison first, you're using imprisonform wrong. You should be throwing out anchor shot to trap something before you do the whole imprisonform thing; on Zama-C, it lets you bluff being a normal set (since they often run anchor and recovery), while on Zacian-C it lets you start pressuring their giratina. You do more damage with 32 anchors than they can recover off, so if they have that as their Imprisonform counter you can just wear them down and kill them. Zamazenta isn't quite so good at that, but it can still wear down tina if Rocks are up, or support a sweeper; if you have a pokemon they use Giratina to check, like a CB Groudon or the like, they might have to recover at 60-70 to prevent a sweep, which can in turn let you run them out of recovery. Either they let themselves be unable to check your offensive threat, or they die to imprisonform.


It's not unbeatable, but it is a powerful matchup fish. The reliable ways of handling imprisonform in general are:
1. Have a giratina set that beats their Trapper (scales for magearna, FC for Zacc, etc. Very easy to do but never a guarenteed win
2. Have lots of offensive pressure so it doesn't get to try it too often.
3. Have 2 slow pivots and keep them alive at all costs until you've scouted for it fully
4. Run less viable anti trapping measures, like other ghosts, or shed shell and somehow avoid being knocked off

 

[Sweet Jesus]

If you click imprison first, you're using imprisonform wrong. You should be throwing out anchor shot to trap something before you do the whole imprisonform thing; on Zama-C, it lets you bluff being a normal set (since they often run anchor and recovery), while on Zacian-C it lets you start pressuring their giratina. You do more damage with 32 anchors than they can recover off, so if they have that as their Imprisonform counter you can just wear them down and kill them. Zamazenta isn't quite so good at that, but it can still wear down tina if Rocks are up, or support a sweeper; if you have a pokemon they use Giratina to check, like a CB Groudon or the like, they might have to recover at 60-70 to prevent a sweep, which can in turn let you run them out of recovery. Either they let themselves be unable to check your offensive threat, or they die to imprisonform.


It's not unbeatable, but it is a powerful matchup fish. The reliable ways of handling imprisonform in general are:
1. Have a giratina set that beats their Trapper (scales for magearna, FC for Zacc, etc. Very easy to do but never a guarenteed win
2. Have lots of offensive pressure so it doesn't get to try it too often.
3. Have 2 slow pivots and keep them alive at all costs until you've scouted for it fully
4. Run less viable anti trapping measures, like other ghosts, or shed shell and somehow avoid being knocked off

I did mess up there. Anchor shot is generaly the better first move. I'd also add taunt cramorant to your ways to handle the threat since it usualy completely shuts it down on the first switch although it's also the frailest counter.

I also wanted to talk about leech seed which I've been using a lot lately and feel like it's among the most underated moves in the tier since I barely ever see other players use it. Leech seed is an amazing multi-purpose move that can make it the perfect filler move, especialy on offensive mons. Instead of a healing move, a status inducing move or additionnal coverage leech seed provides an option that combines all 3 of these options in one move.

-Leech seed's draining effect can often be used on wallbreakers that will threaten more 2hkos from their existing coverage move + leech seed damage than from a 4th coverage move.

-Leech seed can provide some form of passive recovery without wasting a move on something that brings no offensive value. Since walls usualy have higher hp than wallbreakers, the user often heals more than 1/8 of his own HP.

-Leech seed is very effective against chansey and sometimes even enough to improof yourself since chansey ultra high HP will always come out loser from a double leech seed situation. Even if you do have to switch out, chansey won't heal as much with leech seed as it would with a traditional healing move and you can improof yourself with a magic bouncer or ferrothorn specificaly designed to cover your wallbreaker's 3 coverage moves.

-Leech seed can be used against poison healers unlike status inducing moves. Even if all the damage dealt through leech seed is canceled by poison heal, you are still healing from it and most importantly, the opponent isn't healing because he usualy relies on a protection move + poison heal to recover hp. This becomes even more interesting when hazards are on the field or when your opponent's poison healer is his only counter to your wallbreaker since he'll be forced to switch out to take a hit nothing else can tank.

-Leech seed doesn't trigger cramorant's effect yet can still deal a little bit of damage.


Thundurus-Therian (M) @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Aerilate
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Boomburst
- Volt Switch
- Court Change
- Leech Seed

Thunderous is a one move wallbreaker that doesn't fear cramorant and has a powerful pivot that usualy hits his counters for neutral damage. He uses leech seed as a way to prevent chansey from winning the court change war even with a shed shell and getting extra kills on things that take somewhere between 37,5 and 50% from boomburst.

Tapu Fini @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Poison Heal
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Scald
- Leech Seed
- Quiver Dance
- Baneful Bunker

There are very few mons that aren't threatend by a scald burn, a setting up defensive poison healer and leech seed. Magic bouncers fear the burn and QD and poison healers fear leech seed and QD. The fact spectral thief has less pp than qd and doesn't gain in power from stealing QD makes it's users prone to getting drained by residual damage while failing to stop the set up. Setting up leech seed also adds extra recovery power to baneful bunker and will even give you the upper hand against toxic orb chansey which generaly counters all poison healers easily. baneful bunker poisons anything trying to spin the seeds and hazards (which are obviously a great combination with leech seed).

 

[XxBigGuy89xX]

What makes it Balanced?
The removal of abilities, moves or Pokemon that focus the meta only around their use.

So... is this principle meant to be taken at face value? Because if so, it seems mind-boggling that imposter chansey/blissey isn't banned. Anyone who's played BH is well aware that the mere possibility of imposter chansey radically alters how every single pokemon and moveset must be constructed. Any single ability or pokemon having such a pervasive and severe effect ought to be banned, no?

 

[Varrio]

So... is this principle meant to be taken at face value? Because if so, it seems mind-boggling that imposter chansey/blissey isn't banned. Anyone who's played BH is well aware that the mere possibility of imposter chansey radically alters how every single pokemon and moveset must be constructed. Any ability or pokemon having such a pervasive and severe effect ought to be banned, no?

You do realise that YOU control what your imposter's set is, right? That means you just need to imposter-proof your Pokemon. It's really not that hard unless you're really bad at the game, which is usually the case for people who complain about Imposter Chansey/Blissey and want it to be banned. There are many posts in this thread about that argument so just read that so they answer your question.

 

[opfish]

So... is this principle meant to be taken at face value? Because if so, it seems mind-boggling that imposter chansey/blissey isn't banned. Anyone who's played BH is well aware that the mere possibility of imposter chansey radically alters how every single pokemon and moveset must be constructed. Any ability or pokemon having such a pervasive and severe effect ought to be banned, no?

It seems mind boggling that you have already judged "Imposter=Broken" before understanding and practicing in this meta. You can control the Imposter set as Varrio said, and there are many sets are "Self-Improof" such as Multi-Attack, Poison Heal, etc... Good teams can prevent Imposter from getting any advantages, you may go "sample team" to learn about how teams "improof". I understand that it is hard for new players to "improof", but you should learn it, instead of saying to ban it. Practice more then you will learn "improof" and become a decent player.

 

[Codename C.A.T]

So... is this principle meant to be taken at face value? Because if so, it seems mind-boggling that imposter chansey/blissey isn't banned. Anyone who's played BH is well aware that the mere possibility of imposter chansey radically alters how every single pokemon and moveset must be constructed. Any ability or pokemon having such a pervasive and severe effect ought to be banned, no?

You have started a gang war.

ImpChans is not broken. However, ImpChans DOES define BH as a tier. This feels like when people ask for a Lando-T ban in OU without understanding how bans work. Hell, I've seen a couple people ask for a Snorlax ban in GSC OU, which is just no. All of these things have counters, but they also all define their own metas. People who beg for these to be banned reveal they don't know anything about what the meta is actually like.

 

[XxBigGuy89xX]

ImpChans is not broken. However, ImpChans DOES define BH as a tier.

This seems to be the issue, and is why I framed my post as a question in the first place. My understanding was that single pokemon shouldn't be so influential as to "define" the BH meta. Is this understanding incorrect?

 

[Redchimp]

This seems to be the issue, and is why I framed my post as a question in the first place. My understanding was that single pokemon shouldn't be so influential as to "define" the BH meta. Is this understanding incorrect?

that's because it doesn't define the tier, needing to plan for it doesn't make it a defining part of the metagame, same way you would need some counter to Lando-T or Urshifu-Single Strike preban. That also shows the barrier from being a central part of the metagame to broken, very little could swap into Urshifu with choice band without being threatened, Lando-T is just weak enough to not have this issue. ImpChans is destroyed by things like poison heal, taunt cramorant, and basic improofing. I'll give an example, I use a team from this forum called "Adaptable Offense" the most, Palkia and Groudon are my main threats.

Groudon @ Choice Band
Ability: Adaptability
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Thousand Arrows
- Precipice Blades
- Glacial Lance
- U-turn

Palkia @ Lustrous Orb
Ability: Adaptability
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Dragon Energy
- Fishious Rend
- Strength Sap
- Glare

I use these sets to attempt for a big lead with groudon and a late sweep with palkia. However, ImpChans can be bad as neither of these can counter ImpChans themselves, this is where the 3rd and 4th member of the team comes in, Cramorant and Tapu Fini counter Groudon and Palkia respectively, if they lead impchans into my groudon i know they will prob go for glacial lance, so i swap into cramorant and para the chansey, ensuring i outspeed in each encounter against it. If my palkia gets imposter'd, i swap to fini who can also often get a para on palkia as it goes for a glare to try and heal up late game. Magic Bounce goes and does it's thing and chansey is para'd.

Tapu Fini @ Leftovers
Ability: Magic Bounce
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Bold Nature
- Spectral Thief
- Moonblast
- Baneful Bunker
- Recover


Simply put improofing is just a part of BH just like hazard removal is, and it's dumb to ban ImpChans, however annoying the ability can be.

 

[XxBigGuy89xX]

It's really not that hard unless you're really bad at the game, which is usually the case for people who complain about Imposter Chansey/Blissey and want it to be banned. There are many posts in this thread about that argument so just read that so they answer your question.

I suspect the fact that there are so many posts on this topic has more to do with communication issues on behalf of the "explainers," rather than bad players simply whining to avoid having to git gud. There are many posts, as you say, including three in direct response to my question, and zero of them (maybe 0.5, giving credit to Codename CAT) addressed my concern. I am aware that there are counters to impostor chansey. I employ these counters with a good degree of success when I play the game. This is not relevant, because the question is not "is Chansey unbeatable," the question is "does Chansey have an undue influence on the meta." By telling people they need to build in chansey-counters to every mon they have, you sort of make it seem like the answer to that question is yes.

 

[XxBigGuy89xX]

Simply put improofing is just a part of BH just like hazard removal is, and it's dumb to ban ImpChans, however annoying the ability can be.

Is there not a difference between an archetype/subcategory of mons (e.g. hazards) being extremely influential vs a single build being that influential? I have counters to walls, hazard-setters, physical + special heavy hitters, and setup sweepers, but Impostor Chansey is the only specific build I have ever had to specifically and exhaustively account for.

(P.S. Your information is appreciated)

 

[Redchimp]

I suspect the fact that there are so many posts on this topic has more to do with communication issues on behalf of the "explainers," rather than bad players simply whining to avoid having to git gud. There are many posts, as you say, including three in direct response to my question, and zero of them (maybe 0.5, giving credit to Codename CAT) addressed my concern. I am aware that there are counters to impostor chansey. I employ these counters with a good degree of success when I play the game. This is not relevant, because the question is not "is Chansey unbeatable," the question is "does Chansey have an undue influence on the meta." By telling people they need to build in chansey-counters to every mon they have, you sort of make it seem like the answer to that question is yes.

ok so I'll answer that question. Yes, she has an undue influence on the meta, so does Latios in Gen5OU, half the reason Ferro is meta in gen5 is as a latios counter, same thing with Yveltal for a good bit in gen8ubers to counter Calyrex-Shadow, there are always going to be top pokemon in each meta, ImpChans just happens to be one of them

 

[dragonlordxxslayer]

Is there not a difference between an archetype/subcategory of mons (e.g. hazards) being extremely influential vs a single build being that influential? I have counters to walls, hazard-setters, physical + special heavy hitters, and setup sweepers, but Impostor Chansey is the only specific build I have ever had to specifically and exhaustively account for.

(P.S. Your information is appreciated)

this is going to be my only post on this discussion but, to me imp always felt like a way to keep meta more balanced in that it keeps people from running braindead offensive strats like v-create Glance rend on every mon without repercussions and keeps the meta form being too centralized on HO and allows stall to work better. an example of this would be eternamax in PH as it actually makes people think on how to teambuild rather than making sPaM cLIcK ThiS mOve foR frEe wIN. imposter chansey also makes certain things like poison heal more viable as strategies to use on mons and there are probably some other examples of things that are viable because of imp or there viability was improved. I really apologize if this doesnt make sense as im really tired at the moment i'm writing this.

 

[Redchimp]

this is going to be my only post on this discussion but, to me imp always felt like a way to keep meta more balanced in that it keeps people from running braindead offensive strats like v-create Glance rend on every mon without repercussions and keeps the meta form being too centralized on HO and allows stall to work better. an example of this would be eternamax in PH as it actually makes people think on how to teambuild rather than making sPaM cLIcK ThiS mOve foR frEe wIN. imposter chansey also makes certain things like poison heal more viable as strategies to use on mons and there are probably some other examples of things that are viable because of imp or there viability was improved. I really apologize if this doesnt make sense as im really tired at the moment i'm writing this.

no that's well said and I've never thought it it like that but you are definitley true. Without Chansey the metagame would be filled with simple spammers and other braindead strats

 

[XxBigGuy89xX]

Re: Everyone would only run hyper offense if there were no chansey

I don't run chansey and I have absolutely no problems with the superpowered offenses people like to run. The accessibility of all the support moves and abilites (notably for me prankster, topsy turvy, will-o-wisp, and parting shot), as well as spectral thief, just make it a trivial matter to neutralize and cripple anything threatening.

 

[willempju]

this is going to be my only post on this discussion but, to me imp always felt like a way to keep meta more balanced in that it keeps people from running braindead offensive strats like v-create Glance rend on every mon without repercussions and keeps the meta form being too centralized on HO and allows stall to work better. an example of this would be eternamax in PH as it actually makes people think on how to teambuild rather than making sPaM cLIcK ThiS mOve foR frEe wIN. imposter chansey also makes certain things like poison heal more viable as strategies to use on mons and there are probably some other examples of things that are viable because of imp or there viability was improved. I really apologize if this doesnt make sense as im really tired at the moment i'm writing this.

Yeah, but 'if we remove mon X the meta would explode' is not a reason smogon uses to not ban something and is actively discouraged in other tiers as an argument

 

[Lunatic Hai]

While there's a good bit of miscommunication, I think it's pretty easy to pin things down.

So... is this principle meant to be taken at face value? Because if so, it seems mind-boggling that imposter chansey/blissey isn't banned. Anyone who's played BH is well aware that the mere possibility of imposter chansey radically alters how every single pokemon and moveset must be constructed. Any single ability or pokemon having such a pervasive and severe effect ought to be banned, no?

"The removal of abilities, moves or Pokemon that focus the meta only around their use."

I take this to mean that banworthy moves, abilities and mons all basically invalidate much of the meta to the point where they're near must-pick, with you either needing to run terribly specific means of countering them (to the point where you're basically unable to deal with much else) or just run it yourself.

Imp isn't the kind of ability that restricts the meta to the point of basically needing to be used. Probably 80% of my teams don't run imposter, and a good bit of the remaining 20% is made up of other people's teams (or adjusted versions of them). Back when unrestricted Zacc was a thing, it ran rampant to the point where most of the offensive metagame was nowhere near as good, and the defensive side had basically 0 counterplay depending on the set. I use these two as examples in many cases regarding banworthy things, but they're good ones nonetheless; Ray and Pdon ran over just about everything in their path, and were ridiculously flexible to boot. Sure, they had some counterplay too, but the point with Imp is that the amount of counterplay and control you have is far greater. Information is incredibly useful for counterplay, so an unknown enemy set can be a damn pain without scouting or guessing right, but with Imp, you know all of the variables but one (item) right off the bat. Yes, it exerts a great deal of influence over the meta, but the fact that it's limited by whatever it's copying is a great means of exploiting it. Oftentimes, improofs overlap with mons you'd already have plenty of reason to use anyway; if I'm running Metronome Pix Xern (aka Metrosexual) and need an improof for it, that mon will also likely be a help against opposing Metrosexuals. And, given how good that set is, you definitely want to be prepared for the enemy running it.

This is not relevant, because the question is not "is Chansey unbeatable," the question is "does Chansey have an undue influence on the meta." By telling people they need to build in chansey-counters to every mon they have, you sort of make it seem like the answer to that question is yes.

Maybe it's a bit nebulous determining whether any given mechanic has an undue influence in the meta, but I feel people who are skilled in a meta will by and large have a decent sense for whether something crosses that line, or at least approaches it. It's not even a matter of bias, either; many BH players such as myself don't use imposter terribly often or have any great affinity for it. It just simply isn't something seen as overpowered by much of the people who actually have an understanding of the meta. While it's not a 1 to 1 comparison, Codename C.A.T does have a point about mons as defining in their respective metas as GSC Lax, Lando-T, etc. These are far more "must-pick" than imp chansey/blissey will ever be. Forgive the more seasoned veterans of the meta, but the reason for the air of exasperation and lacking communication does stem from the fact that people so often try to argue against Imposter without having this context, and explaining one of the core aspects of the meta over and over can get stale. I'd imagine many OU players roll their eyes when people complain about Lando, and while it isn't ideal, that sort of thing is pretty common in just about anything from Pokemon to chess to writing quality Xavier Renegade Angel x Friedrich Nietzsche crossover fanfics.

this is going to be my only post on this discussion but, to me imp always felt like a way to keep meta more balanced in that it keeps people from running braindead offensive strats like v-create Glance rend on every mon without repercussions and keeps the meta form being too centralized on HO and allows stall to work better. an example of this would be eternamax in PH as it actually makes people think on how to teambuild rather than making sPaM cLIcK ThiS mOve foR frEe wIN. imposter chansey also makes certain things like poison heal more viable as strategies to use on mons and there are probably some other examples of things that are viable because of imp or there viability was improved. I really apologize if this doesnt make sense as im really tired at the moment i'm writing this.

Imp is honestly better at dealing with balance, regular/bulky offense, and stall/semistall than HO. If anything, I'd say HO is the style that fears Imposter least, since it's rather easy to improof/self improof given things like sash, belly burden, memory/plates being slapped onto a random setup mon, etc. Fwqef's BHAQ team is one such example.

Hope this clears stuff up a bit.

 

[a loser]

So... is this principle meant to be taken at face value? Because if so, it seems mind-boggling that imposter chansey/blissey isn't banned. Anyone who's played BH is well aware that the mere possibility of imposter chansey radically alters how every single pokemon and moveset must be constructed. Any single ability or pokemon having such a pervasive and severe effect ought to be banned, no?

This is a fair question. My thinking is that no matter what metagame you play, there are going to be certain Pokemon, abilities, moves, and playstyles that rise to the top. This doesn't necessarily mean that they are overpowered or banworthy, though.

In the current metagame, Pixilate Xerneas is very, very good. Mixed sets with Metronome have the ability to tear through opposing teams once it gets a Rapid Spin boost and/or racks up the Metronome count with Boomburst. I believe that it is absolutely necessary to have at least one check/counter to Xerneas on your team, if not more than one, to avoid losing to it. This Xerneas should impact every player's teambuilding process if they don't want to lose to it but it doesn't mean that Xerneas, Pixilate, or Boomburst are problematic. There are plenty of ways to check/counter Xerneas without having to resort to niche abilities like Soundproof or running 3+ Steel-types on every team.

I know Imposter is a different animal here, but I believe its impact on the metagame is similar to that of other very good and viable strategies. Said good and viable strategies will be commonly used because if you use them well, you'll likely win games. The best options available for teambuilding are always going to be the "focus" of the metagame, but not in the same way that broken things like Wonder Guard, Huge/Pure Power, and Neutralizing Gas would force the metagame to focus around them.

Lunatic Hai makes some good points here too. Basically, Imposter and many other viable strategies are always going to be more common and therefore make them seem like the focus of the game. Maybe we could change up the wording in the statement you quoted, but this "focus" is much different than that of other things like the ones I mentioned above.

 

[dragonlordxxslayer]

Imp is honestly better at dealing with balance, regular/bulky offense, and stall/semistall than HO. If anything, I'd say HO is the style that fears Imposter least, since it's rather easy to improof/self improof given things like sash, belly burden, memory/plates being slapped onto a random setup mon, etc. Fwqef's BHAQ team is one such example.

Hope this clears stuff up a bit.

ah thanks looking back i probably could have done better writing out my explanation but, my veiwpoint on imp is basically the same as yours

 

[willdbeast]

the tools have literally only increased

This isn't entirely true. There are a lot of new tools this gen in the forms of unique moves, abilities and pokemon but there are also things we could formerly use to beat imposter that simply don't exist any more; most notable are probably Judgment and Megas, both of which could be used effectively on more offensive teams to deal with imposter without needing a safe switchin.

That aside I do agree in general with the sentiment of XxBigGuy89xX that the way the opening description and FAQ for this thread are worded aren't a completely accurate portrayal of the philosophy of the meta, but it's very hard to pin down exactly what it is the community bases decisions on and even if you do it's going to change over time (just look at how greatly the approach to balancing changed from gen 5 to now). It's hard to put into words exactly how much of an impact on the meta is too much. Every viable mon has some sort of impact on building a reasonable team and some like Zamazent-C and Zacian-C have pretty huge impacts on what you can and must run to beat them. It's very hard to compare the more widespread impact of Imposter over (likely) every pokemon in your team vs the more controlling impact of other top tier mons which might only require one or two pokemon on the team to be affected but place a very tight restriction on what these mons are.