1. Welcome to Smogon! Check out the Smogon Starters Hangout for everything you need to know about starting out in the community. Don't forget to introduce yourself in the Introduction and Hangout Thread, too!
  2. Welcome to Smogon Forums! Please take a minute to read the rules.

Balanced OU (Weatherless)

Discussion in 'BW OU Teams' started by Zac73806, Jul 28, 2013.

  1. Zac73806

    Zac73806

    Joined:
    Jun 3, 2010
    Messages:
    19
    INTRODUCTION

    Hey there, thanks for checking out my RMT. I'm Zac, I've been battling for a few years now and one of my favorite competitive pokes has always been Shaymin. Its a hard poke to predict and has many different viable move sets. I decided to try to use it again in standard play as I used to in the D/P/PT days. It seemed to me it would pair well with Kyurem-B and thats where I got the idea for this team.


    TEAM BUILDING PROCESS

    [​IMG][​IMG]

    So I had these two guys. A physically defensive Shaymin, and a Kyurem that I gave a very odd EV spread that works like a charm. Looking at this, any dragon that had a decent pace could massacre these two.

    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]


    I added my good friend Mr. Donphan. He'll take unboosted Outrages from ScarfChomp all day and the same from Dragonite. He also can set up Stealth Rocks and Spin them away so that Kyurem and the rest of my team could switch in. Yet, his Ice Shard wasn't quite enough of a safety net for me. Dragons are huge threats.

    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]

    Ah yes, the ultimate dragon check, Mamoswine. This man's Ice Shard can OHKO Dragonite through MultiScale and knock out that annoying Garchomp whilst Donphan can't. This also helps me kill things like Staraptor, Landorus-T and everything Dragon type. The only bad thing about adding these two is that they're both weak to water. I have the perfect poke.

    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]

    Well, Gyarados may seem odd as something to help against strong waters but it works well against Keldeo, which was what I was mainly worried about. With STAB Waterfall and Bounce and being able to boost with Dragon Dance it seemed fairly obvious to choose it. Just need one more pokemon now.

    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]

    Chandelure may seem a little odd. I wanted something Fire type and was desprate for a special attacker. Heatran was slower then I wanted and doesn't have the attacking power that Chandelure has. I also didn't want it because it left me very susceptible to Breloom. Chandelure easily OHKOs Breloom with Fire Blast and is protected from Technician boosted Mach Punches thanks to Ghost Typing which is really nice when I have Kyurem and Mamoswine.




    In Depth Analysis

    [​IMG]



    Shaymin @ Leftovers
    Trait: Natural Cure
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Sp.Def / 4 SAtk
    Bold Nature
    - Rest
    - Seed Flare
    - Leech Seed
    - Hidden Power [Fire]​
    Bulky Shaymin has always been a star player for me in UU so I thought I'd try it out in standard since I hadn't since D/P/PT days. I use physically defensive for no reason in particular, it just works well. Rest comes in handy and is great to use due to Natural Cure. Seed Flare's 40% chance to lower Special Defense by 2 stages is brilliant and Leech Seed allows for additional health gain in conjunction with the Leftovers. Hidden Power Fire is for things that like to Leech Seed and pesky Steel types that are in against Shaymin.
    [​IMG]

    Kyurem-Black @ Leftovers
    Trait: Teravolt
    EVs: 252 Atk / 80 HP / 100 Def / 76 Spd
    Naughty Nature
    - Fusion Bolt
    - Ice Beam
    - Outrage
    - Substitute

    You're going to look at this set and say "What the hell is going on with those EV's" Well before you knock it, try it. 80 HP puts me at 411 HP which gives it a healthy amount of bulk. 100 Def EV's helps it live Bullet Punch, Mach Punch etc. 252 Attack EV's are because of Kyurem's raw power, 170 Attack is absolutely nothing to play around with, may as well max it out. The rest I just threw in Speed to outrun miscellaneous things. It is Naughty nature because most of the hits that Kyurem resists or are neutral are special hits and I figured if they're resisted, they're weakened enough so it should be fine. The rest of the set is self explanatory.

    [​IMG]

    Donphan @ Leftovers
    Trait: Sturdy
    EVs: 252 Atk / 252 HP / 4 SDef
    Adamant Nature
    - Earthquake
    - Ice Shard
    - Rapid Spin
    - Stealth Rock

    Donphan is pretty standard. Well, except for the max attack. For those of you who don't know, Donphan has 120 base attack. That's pretty phenomenal, so I wanted to take advantage of that. It isn't 2HKO'd by Terrakion Close Combat unless it's banded and can strike back with an Earthquake, Spin, or set up Stealth Rock. It can also take outrage for days.


    [​IMG]


    Mamoswine @ Expert Belt
    Trait: Thick Fat
    EVs: 252 Atk / 252 HP / 4 Spd
    Adamant Nature
    - Earthquake
    - Ice Shard
    - Icicle Crash
    - Stone Edge

    Yeah, this guy is pretty good. Expert Belt so I have the freedom to switch up moves. I prefer it over Life Orb because the recoil racks up quickly when you're throwing Ice Shards around. I use thick fat for Super ice bulk and so I can live some fire attacks that are fired off at me. I use Stone Edge over Superpower for no particular reason. I kind of just do :)

    [​IMG]


    Gyarados @ Leftovers
    Trait: Moxie
    EVs: 252 Spd / 252 Atk / 4 HP
    Adamant Nature
    - Waterfall
    - Bounce
    - Dragon Dance
    - Substitute

    Gyarados is absolutely the most standard thing on this team. I'm pretty sure every single person that runs Gyarados is running something extremely similar to this, but i'll explain it for technicalities sake. Get behind the substitute, Dragon Dance once or twice then win the game. Easy as that. The only thing I run that's a little different is that I run Adamant over Jolly. It hits harder, I like it.

    [​IMG]

    Chandelure @ Choice Scarf
    Trait: Flash Fire
    EVs: 252 Spd / 252 SAtk / 4 SDef
    Timid Nature
    - Fire Blast
    - Shadow Ball
    - Hidden Power [Fighting]
    - Sleep Talk/Energy Ball
    I still don't really know what I want to run in the fourth slot on this set, and after some comments I switched it to Energy Ball and it didn't really do much for me. I decided to try something a little gimmiky. I've been running Sleep Talk as the fourth move and using it to take spores from Breloom and hitting things with Sleep Talk. Has been working reletively well so far.
    Threats
    [​IMG] Cloyster: Well, Shell Smashing Cloyster is a problem for most teams due to its sheer power after one Shell Smash. Mamoswine can take one hit from a +2 Cloyster and KO with an Earthquake but you have to have a safe switch and Mamo has to have a decent amount of HP remaining. I NEED HELP COUNTERING THIS GUY.

    [​IMG] Keldeo: Well, I assume that this thing will be banned relatively soon but it is extremely threatening to this team. Kyurem can take about 72% from an unboosted Secret Sword and do massive damage with Fusion Bolt. Shaymin can also fire off Seed Flares to do big damage but its accuracy is a little shady sometimes so its not a 100% KO.

    [​IMG] Ninetales: This thing is only really a problem if it has a lot of Special Attack investment. Without it, it is easily KO'd by Kyurem Outrage, Mamoswine/Donphan Earthquake or a Gyarados Waterfall but it it has SpAttk Ev's it can OHKO Kyurem and Mamoswine and 2HKO Donphan and Gyarados with Solarbeam. With those four Pokemon though, you're bound to kill it eventually.

    [​IMG] Hippowdon: I don't really see this guy often but he is a problem. As you can see, the big sweepers get behind substitutes and start destroying enemy teams. This thing, being extremely bulky and carrying Whirlwind can absolutely shut them down. Kyurem Ice Beams can do a good chunk along with Shaymin Seed Flares can wear him down and eventually knock him out.

    [​IMG] Terrakion: Well, Terrakion is semi threatening but only really if banded. Terrakion can't 100% 2HKO Donphan if it is unboosted which leaves room for Donphan to hit it with an Earthquake and clean knock him out.

    [​IMG] Ferrothorn: This guy is really only annoying under rain. Shaymin and Chandelure are really the only Pokemon on the team that have weapons to knock this guy out easily. With Stealth Rock up it makes it tricky due to Chandelure having the Rock weakness.​

    Conclusion
    Well everyone, Thanks for reading. I look forward to looking at your praises, criticisms and critiques.

    Importable!
    Shaymin @ Leftovers
    Trait: Natural Cure
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 SDef / 4 SAtk
    Bold Nature
    - Rest
    - Seed Flare
    - Leech Seed
    - Hidden Power [Fire]


    Kyurem-Black @ Leftovers
    Trait: Teravolt
    EVs: 252 Atk / 80 HP / 100 Def / 76 Spd
    Naughty Nature
    - Fusion Bolt
    - Ice Beam
    - Outrage
    - Substitute


    Mamoswine @ Expert Belt
    Trait: Thick Fat
    EVs: 252 Atk / 252 HP / 4 Spd
    Adamant Nature
    - Earthquake
    - Ice Shard
    - Icicle Crash
    - Stone Edge


    Donphan @ Leftovers
    Trait: Sturdy
    EVs: 252 Atk / 252 HP / 4 SDef
    Adamant Nature
    - Earthquake
    - Ice Shard
    - Rapid Spin
    - Stealth Rock


    Gyarados @ Leftovers
    Trait: Moxie
    EVs: 252 Spd / 252 Atk / 4 HP
    Adamant Nature
    - Waterfall
    - Bounce
    - Dragon Dance
    - Substitute


    Chandelure @ Choice Scarf
    Trait: Flash Fire
    EVs: 252 Spd / 252 SAtk / 4 SDef
    Timid Nature
    - Fire Blast
    - Shadow Ball
    - Hidden Power [Fighting]
    - Sleep Talk

    Last edited: Aug 3, 2013
    scotti likes this.
  2. Explorer

    Explorer

    Joined:
    Mar 22, 2012
    Messages:
    683
    Just two little things I would change:
    1. Move Mamoswine's 4 SpD EVs to Speed just to speed-creep opposing Mamoswine that run your EV spread.
    2. Dark Pulse and Shadow Ball are redundant on Chandelure together. Thus I suggest you run Energy Ball over Dark Pulse, giving you SE hits on Politoed and Terrakion.

    Otherwise this is an excellent team! Good luck!
  3. Reymedy

    Reymedy The Black Sun.
    is a Tutoris an official Team Rateris a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributor
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Oct 17, 2012
    Messages:
    1,711
    Hello, you invested some time in this RMT, and you still have no decent answer. What a pity.
    So let's start the rate, as I read your team building process, I'm quite confused. First you start with two pokemons, and you don't explain why. Then you say that you add Donphan to "take unboosted Outrages from ScarfChomp all day and the same from Dragonite".
    However :
    - 252 Atk Garchomp Outrage vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Donphan: 169-199 (44.01 - 51.82%) -- 16.41% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
    - 252+ Atk Dragonite Outrage vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Donphan: 189-223 (49.21 - 58.07%) -- 98.83% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
    I'm not even talking about a possible CB Nite/Chomp. It also means that after a SD, Chomp can OHKO your Donphan (if sturdy is broken).
    Well, it means that you already made a pretty big mistake in your team building. On top of that, Ice Shard from Donphan is really too weak to revenge kill what it should revenge kill. I'm aware that you got Mamoswine though, but it makes me wonder "then what the hell is doing Donphan ? SR and die ? Spin and die ?".
    First time I see someone mentionning Staraptor in his team building by the way.
    "Chandelure may seem a little odd. Its weird to me too, but it works for whatever reason." Whatever reason ? *.*

    Okay moving on, here are the weaknesses :

    - Kyurem-B, Scarf, or mixed, as long as they outspeed yours and Mamoswine, they should rape your team. You have no Steel, and he can hit everything for SE coverage bar Mamoswine and Chandelure (unless Earth Power).

    - Terrakion, because honnestly that Donphan is too weak. If it's CB it won't have any issue breaking through the pig, and else, he will just weaken you first. Donphan has SR to set, I don't feel like he's stay healthy all game.

    - Ferrothorn. Under the Rain, he'll be peacefully walling your whole team bar Chandelure. But who will let Ferrothorn on Chandelure, since you're Scarfed and SR weal, you won't come much, and you won't be hard to play around.

    - Anything with a way to spin block Donphan (who is the easiest spinner to spin block in OU, unless you go with Head Smash).

    The issues lie in Donphan and Chandelure. Shaymin set is also pretty meh, but it is fixable. The fact is that Chandelure doesn't bring that much to your team and is probably outclassed. However, it has some merits because it covers you against some Sun sweepers like Venusaur, but also against Breloom.
    Donphan, in itself, doesn't bring anything. Basically SR and Spin. It's true that your team has alot of SR-weak pokemons. I don't like building teams with Spinners, because the only really good Spinners are Tentacruel under Rain, and Starmie.

    The changes :

    - However, under some circumstances, Forretress can be a decent Spinner.
    In your situation, you need SR, a "check" to Terrakion, and to Kyurem-B. Well, Forretress can do it decently well (a physically defensive set -onsite- with GyroBall/SR/Spin/Volt-Switch).

    - Next change, would be something to dent Ferrothorn. Simply, Superpower>StoneEdge on Mamoswine. It will also hit Rotom-W harder, to open a path for Gyarados.

    For the next changes, they're less crucial, I only propose them to make your team work better, not to fix issues.

    - I'd change Kyurem-B set to a EarthPower/IceBeam/FusionBolt/Substitute one. This set has no counter, and can dismantle any stall. Since, stall will be an issue (usually they spinblock Forretress pretty easily, putting your team in trouble). Put the Atk in SpA, and you'd probably prefer giving him 236 Spe.

    - No reason to put 252 Spe on Gyara, you only need 176, you can put the rest in HP.

    - I find Shaymin just randomly done. You don't say what it cover, but being Physically defensive is weird. Physical Grass and Water attacks are not that common. I'd really advocate for a LO set. Something like max SpA, almost max HP and TailWind. Like SeedFlare/HPIce/EarthPower/TailWind. It would be just a blast paired with Kyurem-B or Mamoswine. Food for thoughts.

    - You could change Chandelure for another check to Sun, hitting harder and able to sweep once the walls are broken by Kyurem-B. Something like Nite or Chomp, or whatever suits your liking.

    I hope I helped, I'm too lazy to do a tl;dr and the sets, so read it all, I explained anything anyway.
  4. Ulriken

    Ulriken

    Joined:
    Aug 2, 2013
    Messages:
    25
    The first thing that needs to be said is that things like "no particular reason" and "just because" really aren't the best ways to describe a team. Teams that are well planned usually beat those that are not, so just remember to keep the question "Why?" in mind whenever you're making a team.

    My first thought looking at your team is that every member is at least comfortably 2-hit KO'd by Keldeo in rain, with Donphan/Mamoswine/Chandelure all falling in one hit to Hydro Pump if Keldeo carries Choice Specs. Kyurem-B will also go down in one hit to Secret Sword after Stealth Rock. Regardless of Keldeo's possible imminent banishment, this showcases a major weakness of your team in general--Rain. And rest assured, you will see alot of rain.
    Right now you have 3 Pokemon weak to water, and 3 resists. None of those resists however have sufficient SpD to take sponge the powerful Water-type attacks aimed at the other 3. For this reason, I'm going to suggest you convert Shaymin to a more general Rain check.

    First off, Rest+Leech Seed+ Leftovers is a lot of recovery. Any two of those is probably sufficient. Possible changes include swapping out Rest for Substitute, as you'll recover the lost health nicely with Leech+Leftovers. On the whole however I'd rather limit it to only one recovery move, to provide Shaymin with as much attacking coverage as possible. To this end I'd switch Rest/Leech Seed out for Earth Power, while keeping Hidden Power Fire. HP Fire will hit opposing Steel and Grass-types more effectively, but when the rain comes Earth Power will still be useful. If you are concerned with longevity, you can keep the Leftovers on, but Life Orb is another option for a more offensive presence.

    Kyurem-B
    There is really no need for 252 Attack EVs, as uninvested it is already a monster. The above set by Remedy is a good suggestion, as Kyurem's mixed wallbreaking ability is almost unmatched.
    Gyarados
    Consider switching out Moxie for Intimidate. After a DD or two, Gyarados's attack is already very high, and Moxie is not always necessary at this point. Intimidate can really help patch up the overall lackluster physical defense of your team, and also gives Gyarados more opportunities to set up, especially against the Fighting types that will give Kyurem/Mamoswine difficulty.
    Chandelure
    Dark Pulse isn't doing too much for you here. Energy Ball will hammer Gastrodon, as well as do some nice damage to Water-types on a predicted switch. Like Remedy said Chandelure is definitely a candidate to be switched out, but if it can pick up a Flash Fire boost from a stray Will-o-Wisp or Fire attack aimed at Shaymin, it could be able to do pretty significant damage, as well as possible taking advantage of your opponent's Sun.


    In general, the lack of diversity outside your FWG core is troubling. Donphan and Mamoswine share the Ground-type (and the weaknesses that go along with it), and along with Kyurem all 3 rely at least partially on Ice-type attacks (with Mamoswine and Kyurem bringing Ice's weaknesses as well). Although Dragons are certainly a major threat, they are not enough to require this much preparation. Something has to go, and though I suggest Donphan, I'll keep it up to you. You can also leave Stealth Rock duties to Mamoswine, which may increase your options at Donphan's team slot. A solid defensive Pokemon will probably be your best bet, Gliscor comes to mind as a Fighting-resist to protect your Ice-types, as well as break stall. If you want to keep Chandelure however, you will greatly miss the Rapid Spin support, so keep that in mind as well.

    Thanks for reading, and I hope this helped. Best of luck!

Users Viewing Thread (Users: 0, Guests: 0)