OU Banette (revamp)

Lumari

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All credits to Ash Borer for writing this, don't pay any attention to me, I'm just polishing it because someone has to. Original analysis by Alter

QC: Jukain / TRC / Swamp Link
GP: horyzhnz / GatoDelFuego

Overview
########

Banette is the only Pokemon with access to the combination of Prankster and Destiny Bond. In tandem with Taunt, this allows Banette to check a large majority of setup sweepers in OU, both offensive and defensive. Banette's massive Attack stat is not wasted, as it finds numerous opportunities to smack opponents with Knock Off, further supporting the team. However, Banette does have some glaring flaws; having to give up a moveslot for Protect to safely Mega Evolve is a waste, and Banette's performance, though good in its role, is usually overshadowed by other Mega Evolutions. Utilize Banette's unique abilities well, and it can prove effective.

Destiny Bond Support
########
name: Destiny Bond Support
move 1: Destiny Bond
move 2: Taunt
move 3: Knock Off
move 4: Protect
ability: Frisk
item: Banettite
evs: 124 HP / 252 Atk / 132 Spe
nature: Adamant

Moves
========

Mega Banette's access to Destiny Bond stands out due to its ability, Prankster. In conjunction with Taunt, it effectively stops all boosting threats, even if it requires Mega Banette to sacrifice itself. Taunt forces opponents to attack Mega Banette, which allows it to pull off a successful Destiny Bond, while also preventing opponents from crippling Mega Banette with status. Mega Banette's surprisingly high base 165 Attack allows it to make good use of Knock Off, dealing large amounts of damage while depriving opponents of their items. This is supportive to the team and denies Leftovers recovery, ensuring chip damage is there to stay. Protect is mostly necessary to ensure that Banette can safely Mega Evolve. Without it, Banette is unable to check the plethora of setup sweepers and other dangerous attackers it should without Mega Evolving prior in the match, which would make Banette quite inflexible. Will-O-Wisp is also an option for many reasons; not only can you use it to check physical attackers, but you can use it on free turns to further pressure the opponent and punish them for trying to get around Destiny Bond. If you opt for Will-O-Wisp over Protect, it is important to Mega Evolve early in the match, as the safety net of the latter is not available.

Set Details
========

An Adamant nature and 252 Attack EVs is the logical choice, as Mega Banette's role is not to take hits, and it does not require any Speed thanks to Prankster. However, Speed EVs are still needed so that Mega Banette is able to outspeed opposing priority users such as Azumarill and Scizor to be able to get them with Destiny Bond. Although moving last with Knock Off is important, minimal Speed investment is still inferior in general. Minimal investment in Mega Banette's defenses can actually be beneficial when attempting to eliminate a rather weak opponent such as Calm Mind Suicune that uses moves with secondary effects, such as Scald, Sludge Bomb, or Ice Beam. In this case, it is in Mega Banette's best interest to faint quickly and thus take its opponent with it before fainting to passive damage or becoming frozen and unable to use Destiny Bond at all. However, in a situation where the opponent is attempting to play around Mega Banette by switching around and occasionally using weak attacks to avoid Destiny Bond, it can be beneficial to be able to take hits, letting it damage the opponent more with Knock Off. In general, the HP investment is less situational. Strangely, neither fast or slow Mega Banette nor frail or bulky Mega Banette are 100% optimal, as all have their uses. As odd as it may seem, a spread that does not even use all 510 available EVs is completely viable, and natures including Brave or Lonely can be used to improve Mega Banette, in cases when one wants to outslow more opponents or be knocked out faster. Although Frisk can be replaced with the more situational Insomnia, being able to scout other Pokemon's items before Banette Mega Evolves gives the user knowledge of what set the opponent is using, and is generally the better choice.

Usage Tips
========

Mega Banette should be used to try and eliminate whatever threat is capable of sweeping your team. If your team is particularly weak to the likes of Dragon Dance Mega Tyranitar, then Mega Banette should be preserved until late in the match, where having the opponent lose their win condition to Destiny Bond or switch out and relinquish their boosts is ideal. Because Destiny Bond is active until Mega Banette's next attack, alternation between Destiny Bond and Knock Off against faster setup sweepers almost always ensures that the opposing Pokemon will be eliminated. However, if the opponent has access to priority moves and is faster than Mega Banette, this tactic will be useless. As Mega Banette will be played to eliminate the most important member of the opponent's team, they will often try and play around Destiny Bond by switching. Alternating between Knock Off and Destiny Bond will deal damage, remove items, and force the opponent to let Mega Banette stay alive unless they want to lose a Pokemon due to Destiny Bond. With entry hazards up, this tactic is far more effective, and as such the opponent will often attempt to use recovery moves or Defog to remove the entry hazards. If the opponent sends in a Pokemon on Mega Banette that is capable of recovering or using Defog, always use Taunt, as it is a safe play and keeps pressure on the opponent. In general, if you can predict what the opponent will do, you will either take out their most important sweeper with Destiny Bond, or remove a number of items from the opponent's Pokemon, deal damage, and eventually KO something with Destiny Bond, which are both very favorable outcomes for the Banette user. Banette checks a sweeper at +1 the same as it would at +6; if you can use support moves such as Spikes, Defog, or Heal Bell while the opponent greedily boosts up higher than they need to, these end up being free turns. Mega Banette can also be used to spinblock, which is quite useful to hyper offense teams.

Team Options
========

Above all, entry hazard users are teammates that make Mega Banette far more effective. Exceptionally strong Stealth Rock users that can lay hazards with offensive pressure such as Landorus-T, Garchomp, and Terrakion go well with Mega Banette, as its ability to revenge kill nearly anything is very appreciated on offensive teams. Other than this, Mega Banette requires very little support to function, as it is more of a supporter itself. You shouldn't really need a Choice Scarf user or use other debilitating revenge killing methods alongside Mega Banette, so use your remaining teamslots for more powerful options such as Latios, Landorus, Mamoswine, Life Orb Terrakion, and Nasty Plot Thundurus.

Other Options
########

Mega Banette can make decent use of its titanic Attack stat using Shadow Sneak or Sucker Punch, both of which are exceedingly strong against any target weak to these moves. However, it's impossible to find a moveslot for either, and Mega Banette is not as strong as other purely attacking Mega Evolutions, such as Mega Garchomp. Thunder Wave is also an option, as it can potentially let Mega Banette shut down more than one setup sweeper in the match.

Checks & Counters
########

**Priority**: Destiny Bond makes Mega Banette an extremely hard Pokemon to KO without its check or counter fainting in the process. As a result, sure counters are hard to come by. However, Pokemon that can bypass Mega Banette's own priority make excellent choices for beating it. For example, Talonflame can make use of its natural immunity to burn and priority Flying-type moves to dispose of Mega Banette quite effectively. However, it has difficulty switching into Knock Off or Shadow Claw. Thundurus can outright prevent Mega Banette from using any of its status moves with its own faster Taunt and proceed to attack it.

**Dark-types**: Most Dark-type Pokemon are capable of defeating Mega Banette in practice, but a lot of these Pokemon can also be KOed by Destiny Bond at the same time. One of the best counters to Mega Banette is Mega Absol, which can reflect Taunt and Will-O-Wisp with Magic Bounce and OHKO Mega Banette with its Dark-type STAB moves. Tyranitar can trap Mega Banette with Pursuit or inflict massive damage with Crunch, though it hates being burned. Some Pokemon, such as Sableye and Mandibuzz, can exploit Mega Banette's high base Attack stat with a powerful Foul Play.

**Item Removal Immunities**: Mega Pokemon take reduced damage from Knock Off and do not lose their item, and as such greatly decrease the effectiveness of Mega Banette's tactics. Some that resist Knock Off such as Tyranitar, Houndoom, and Mawile are very annoying.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Lumari

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Implemented first GP check, tagging horyzhnz because there's a couple of things I changed as well/need a second opinion on:

-'moves' section, 4th line, 'This is supportive': your check said 'which is', I split this sentence here because I found a sentence with three consecutive subordinate clauses to be a tad too long.
-'moves' section, 4th/6th line: moved 'finally' from Protect to Will-O-Wisp since Protect wasn't the final move discussed. It is, however, the final main slash discussed, so I'm not completely sure.
-'moves' section, final line, 'the latter': your check said Protect here as well, I found this redundant.
-checks&counters, category 'priority', 3rd line, 'However, it has difficulty': replaced Talonflame with 'it' because I found it redundant.
-section 'Dark-types, 2nd/3rd line: replaced 'Dark-type STAB' with 'Dark-type STAB moves'. There's a pretty long discussion in the grammar standards thread which one is correct and they don't seem to reach a conclusion, so I'm not sure. I found 'Dark-type STAB' to sound really awkward here because it obviously referred to the moves rather than the boost/type, so I changed it, but please overrule me if that's wrong.
-also added some extra commas (at natural pauses), because moar kommaz.

I also implemented your comment regarding CroCune (3rd to 6th line of set details), so could you please check if it's more to your liking this way? I basically just generalised it to any move with secondary effects, as the reason for having to faint quickly is really the same in those cases. (You also might wanna GP those two sentences lol, because they're newly written and I had some trouble phrasing the first one. I don't really mind convoluted sentences that much, but 'when attempting to KO a weak opponent such as Calm Mind Suicune with Destiny Bond that uses moves with secondary effects, such as X, Y, and Z' went too far lol. I'm also fine with removing the Suicune mention altogether if that makes it more readable, but I found it a bit abstract otherwise)


Link to the previous thread (including your check): http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/banette-revamp-gp-0-2.3507077/

If everything's alright, I'll update the title and send this critter off for its second check :)
 

horyzhnz

[10:02:17 AM] flcl: its hory xD
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uh keep your changes they sound fine, stab issue was after I did this check lol, but regarding crocune, remove all the specifics of passive damage, since that already includes all status dmg and weather. Then in he first line of the crocune remove 'to mega banette'. Cant do this properly im on a phone.
 

Lumari

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uh keep your changes they sound fine, stab issue was after I did this check lol, but regarding crocune, remove all the specifics of passive damage, since that already includes all status dmg and weather. Then in he first line of the crocune remove 'to mega banette'. Cant do this properly im on a phone.
Thanks man, implemented stuff and for any screwups on my part there's the second check anyway lol.
 

GatoDelFuego

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The Dutch Plumberjack

REMOVE CHANGE COMMENTS

Overview
########

Banette is the only Pokemon with access to the combination of Prankster and Destiny Bond. In tandem with Taunt, this allows Banette to check a large majority of setup sweepers in OU, both offensive and defensive. Banette's massive Attack stat is not wasted, as it finds numerous opportunities to smack opponents with Knock Off, further supporting the team. However, Banette does have some glaring flaws; (SC) having to give up a moveslot for Protect to safely Mega Evolve is a waste, and Banette's performance, though good in its role, is usually overshadowed by other Mega Evolutions. Utilize Banette's unique abilities well, and it can prove effective.

Destiny Bond Support
########
name: Destiny Bond Support
move 1: Destiny Bond
move 2: Taunt
move 3: Knock Off
move 4: Protect / Will-O-Wisp
ability: Frisk
item: Banettite
evs: 128 HP / 252 Atk / 132 Spe
nature: Adamant

Moves
========

Mega Banette's access to Destiny Bond stands out due to its ability, Prankster. In conjunction with Taunt, it effectively stops all boosting threats, even if it requires Mega Banette to sacrifice itself. Taunt forces opponents to attack Mega Banette, which allows it to pull off a successful Destiny Bond, while also preventing opponents from crippling Mega Banette with status. Mega Banette's surprisingly high base 165 Attack allows it to make good use of Knock Off, dealing large amounts of damage while depriving opponents of their items. This is supportive to the team and denies Leftovers recovery, ensuring chip damage is there to stay. Protect is mostly necessary to ensure that Banette can safely Mega Evolve. Without it, Banette is unable to check the plethora of setup sweepers and other dangerous attackers it should without Mega Evolving prior in the match, which would make Banette quite inflexible. Finally, Prankster Will-O-Wisp is great for many reasons; (SC) not only can you use it to check physical attackers, but you can use it on free turns to further pressure the opponent and punish them for trying to get around Destiny Bond. If you opt for Will-O-Wisp over Protect, it is important to Mega Evolve early in the match, as the safety net of the latter is not available.

Set Details
========

An Adamant nature and 252 Attack EVs is the logical choice, as Mega Banette's role is not to take hits, and it does not require any Speed thanks to Prankster. However, Speed EVs are still needed so that Mega Banette is able to outspeed opposing priority users such as Azumarill and Scizor to be able to get them with Destiny Bond. Although moving last with Knock Off is important, minimal Speed investment is still inferior in general. Minimal investment in Mega Banette's defenses can actually be beneficial when attempting to eliminate a rather weak opponent such as Calm Mind Suicune that uses moves with secondary effects, such as Scald, Sludge Bomb, or Ice Beam. In this case, it is in Mega Banette's best interest to faint quickly and thus take its opponent with it, (RC) before fainting dying to passive damage or becoming frozen and unable to use Destiny Bond at all. However, in a situation where the opponent is attempting to play around Mega Banette by switching around and occasionally using weak attacks to avoid Destiny Bond, it can be beneficial to be able to take hits, letting it damage the opponent more with Knock Off. In general, the HP investment is less situational. Strangely, neither fast or slow Mega Banette, (RC) nor frail or bulky Mega Banette are 100% optimal, as all have their uses. As odd as it may might seem, a spread that does not even use all 510 available EVs is completely viable, and natures including Brave or Lonely How is this relevant at all???? What special attacks is it using? More Attack == more good can be used to improve Mega Banette. Although Frisk can be replaced with the more situational Insomnia, being able to scout other Pokemon's items before Banette Mega Evolves gives the user knowledge of what set the opponent is using, and is generally the better choice.

Usage Tips
========

Mega Banette should be used to try and eliminate whatever threat is capable of sweeping your team. If your team is particularly weak to the likes of Dragon Dance Mega Tyranitar, then Banette should be preserved until late in the match, where having the opponent lose their Mega Tyranitar win condition to Destiny Bond or switch out and relinquish their boosts is ideal. Because Destiny Bond is active until Mega Banette's next attack, alternation between Destiny Bond and Knock Off against faster setup sweepers almost always ensures that the opposing Pokemon will be eliminated. However, if the opponent has access to priority moves and is faster than Mega Banette, this tactic will be useless. As Mega Banette will be played to eliminate the most important member of the opponent's team, they will often try and play around Destiny Bond by switching. Alternating between Knock Off and Destiny Bond will deal damage, remove items, and force the opponent to let you Mega Banette stay alive unless they want to lose a Pokemon due to Destiny Bond. With entry hazards up, this tactic is far more effective, and as such the opponent will often attempt to use recovery moves or Defog to remove the entry hazards. If the opponent sends in a Pokemon on Mega Banette that is capable of recovering or using Defog, always use Taunt, as it is a safe play and keeps pressure on the opponent. In general, if you can predict what the opponent will do, you will either take out their most important sweeper with Destiny Bond, or remove a number of items from the opponent's Pokemon, deal damage, and eventually KO something with Destiny Bond, which are both very favorable outcomes for the Banette user. Banette checks a sweeper at +1 the same as it would at +6; (SC) if you can use support moves such as Spikes, Defog, or Heal Bell while the opponent greedily boosts up higher than they need to, these end up being free turns. Mega Banette can also be used to spinblock, which is quite useful to hyper offense ive teams.

Team Options
========

Above all, entry hazard users are teammates that make Mega Banette far more effective. Exceptionally strong Stealth Rock users that can lay hazards with offensive pressure such as Landorus-T, Garchomp, and Terrakion go well with Mega Banette, as its ability to revenge kill nearly anything is very appreciated on offensive teams. Other than this, Mega Banette requires very little support to function, as it is more of a supporter itself. You shouldn't really need a Choice Scarf user or use other debilitating revenge killing methods alongside Mega Banette, so use your remaining teamslots for more powerful options such as Greninja, Is Greninja really the epitome of power? I'd say more like...Latios? Idk Landorus, Mamoswine, Life Orb Terrakion, and Nasty Plot Thundurus.

Other Options
########

Mega Banette can make decent use of its titanic Attack stat using Shadow Sneak or Sucker Punch, both of which are exceedingly strong against any target weak to these moves. However, it's impossible to find a moveslot for either, and Mega Banette is not as strong as other purely attacking Mega Evolutions, such as Mega Garchomp. Thunder Wave is also an option, as it can potentially let Mega Banette shut down more than one setup sweeper in the match.

Checks & Counters
########

**Priority**: Destiny Bond makes Mega Banette an extremely hard Pokemon to KO without its check or counter fainting in the process. As a result, sure counters are hard to come by. However, Pokemon that can bypass Mega Banette's own priority make excellent choices for beating it. For example, Talonflame can make use of its natural immunity to burn and priority Flying-type moves to dispose of Mega Banette quite effectively. However, it has difficulty switching into Knock Off or Shadow Claw. Thundurus can outright prevent Mega Banette from using any of its status moves with its own faster Taunt and proceed to attack it.

**Dark-types**: Most Dark-type Pokemon are capable of defeating Mega Banette in practice, but a lot of these Pokemon may can also be KOed by Destiny Bond at the same time. One of the best counters to Mega Banette is Mega Absol, which can reflect Taunt and Will-O-Wisp with Magic Bounce, (RC) and OHKO it Mega Banette with its Dark-type STAB moves. Tyranitar can trap Mega Banette with Pursuit or inflict massive damage with Crunch, though it hates being burned. Some Pokemon, such as Sableye and Mandibuzz, can exploit Mega Banette's high base Attack stat with a powerful Foul Play.

**Item Removal Immunities**: Mega Pokemon take reduced damage from Knock Off and do not lose their item, and as such greatly decrease the effectiveness of Mega Banette's tactics. Some that resist Knock Off such as Tyranitar, Houndoom, and Mawile are very annoying.

2/2

Good writing!
 
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Lumari

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GatoDelFuego Regarding the natures, those are for cases when one wants to outslow more opponents (in order to more reliably alternate between DBond and Knock Off) or faint faster. I'll add a short sentence explaining it.
 

Lumari

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Yes but in what case would Adamant not be the best? Banette doesn't care about its Special Attack at all.
In whatever case one wants to deliberately have its Defense or Speed as low as possible in order to be knocked out as fast as possible/outslow as many opponents as possible (somewhat like Relaxed Gyro Ball Ferrothorn, who doesn't care about its Special Attack either).
 

GatoDelFuego

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In whatever case one wants to deliberately have its Defense or Speed as low as possible in order to be knocked out as fast as possible/outslow as many opponents as possible (somewhat like Relaxed Gyro Ball Ferrothorn, who doesn't care about its Special Attack either).
I am so dumb and sorry I thought Brave and Lonely were the stupid neutral natures that did nothing; carry on here
 

Lumari

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I am so dumb and sorry I thought Brave and Lonely were the stupid neutral natures that did nothing; carry on here
In that case, this is done :)

edit: WHOOPS, corrected EVs, added up to 512. Removed 4 HP EVs in order to retain Jolly Azu speed benchmark
 
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Jukain

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alright so i know i took a different stance earlier, but i'm going to make a call that non-protect mega banette isn't really worth using. it never really gets a free chance to mega evolve and is almost entirely helpless without prankster. protect is too important for it to salvage any niche at all. if there are no objections i'll just deal with that and move it to prelim pokedex.

opinions?
 

Lumari

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Jukain
Ash Borer said:
1. You're selling Protect short by far too much. With priority Destiny Bond Banette acts as a really, really valuable revenge killer than can protect teams from nearly any kind of boosting sweeper, including speed boosting sweepers like Charizard X. Without protect Banette is too inflexible to be considered a valuable team member against faster sweepers like Charizard, Gyarados, Terrakion, Volcarona, Dragonite, Lucario, Diggersby, Thundurus, Scarf Cleaners like Moxie Salamence, slower priority users like Swords Dance Scizor, and more. You would need to evolve Banette earlier nn the game to threaten these pokemon, which is very challenging against offensive teams considering that it is quite frail, and often youll need to bend over backwards to accomplish this, forfeiting momentum or what have you. Protect improves flexibility of Banette, and as well, frees up EVs to dump into attack. Yes with protect, Banette doesnt need bulk investment at all letting you run adamant max attack with little regrets! In fact, because youre trying to bait Destiny Bond kills minimum bulk can be more beneficial! This increase's your attacking power greatly.
Ash Borer said:
Protect at least deserves a slash alongside Will-o-Wisp as it improves Banette's flexibility greatly, and it doesnt need Will-o-Wisp to perform its role as a Destiny Bond revenge killer effectively. I understand that prankster status is useful, but other pokemon do this better, and focusing on Banette's niche, and optimizing is Banette's best shot at being worthy of a teamslot, imo
Copying Ash's reasoning (from Alter's analysis) for adding Protect. Iirc, Ash didn't slash Wisp in his skeleton as well when he first created it.
For what it's worth, I agree with removing Wisp - it does have its uses obviously, but using it forces you to mega evolve earlier in the match, giving your opponent a free turn, losing a lot of momentum yourself, yada yada - AND you have to switch in to a weak wall or something like that in order to mega evolve, so Banette can even end up being dead weight against offense. Basically, what Ash said, and he's far more qualified than I am :)
 

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