You won because you got lucky with Red Card, and because the person who was playing BP was literally retarded. Like, BPing out to Espeon on Mega Gardevoir? This guy is clueless, and your replay proves nothing.
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Baton Pass - its role in the metagame and possible solutions to nerf full Baton Pass chains
- Thread starter haunter
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Its a nuisance and it makes it harder for you to win. I have found a counter strategy that involved a Charizard Mega X, but if its killed, my team loses. Banning pokemon isn't really that fun since some people may like that pokemon. It either you're banning a move or a couple of pokemon. Banning a move is better in my opinion.
I think part of the problems lies in the fact, that how could such a 'retarded and clueless' player reach a 'respectable' rating of 1751 ELO using Baton Pass.
Also, the game was over when the BP player lost the Sylveon to Aegislash, which was probably the biggest misplay - at that point, Gardevoir's Hypervoice/Psyshock would have ripped thru the rest of the team, no matter what, especially since Mr. Mime was at only left at 3% health
So in the end I won because i played better than my opponent. Ins't that how it's supposed to be? I'm beating people at similar ratings to mine using nothing more than skill. How is that broken?
I find Stealth Rocks on my field a nuisance too, it makes it harder for me to win. Should we ban it? No. :)
So you lose when you let your counter die? Damn, Baton Pass must be truly broken. :)
Well I really liked Genesect but it got banned too. Just deal with it like everyone else? :)
Could you elaborate? :)
Like I said, it seems like full BP teams are doing the exact opposite of what makes competitive Pokémon fun. If I were to play a BP team on the ladder, I'd probably quit right away (something which I never do normally) since I just don't bother putting up with it. Nothing I do in this battle makes me a better player except against other BP teams. Same goes for the BP player: Whether you win or lose, there's rarely something to learn from that battle I imagine; either you lose because your opponent played specific counters, or you win because he didn't.
In the heat of the debate you are specifically choosing multiple BP counters in your team. The point isn' that BP isn't unbeatable. The subset of viable teams against normal opponents, that also don't auto lose to BP teams is very restricted. That is the end all of the debate.
Either way, against BP is either i got a pretty good chance, or i have no chance, entirely depending on team previews. For the BP player, it is mostly a "i'm likely screwed for the start without winning a few blind 50/50 choices", or "i have 100% chance of victory following a predetermined formula". This is not skill.
The crux is that the pool of viable teams that are somewhat autolose to BP is far greater than those that have a chance. This inherently produces no mechanics that a good meta should have.
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The reason why the player was pointed out as clueless was not to say "a skilled player cannot beat an lesser skilled baton pass player."
The implication was that a baton pass player who is not clueless (and is using a well made baton pass team) does not win through skill a majority of the time, instead following an algorithm.
An algorithm that takes into account subtleties like "hyper voice does not affect Mr. Mime" and "that thing might be carrying red card" but nevertheless a static algorithm that ultimately requires little to no critical thinking if the matchup is in the baton passer's favor. You could write down the algorithm, give it to someone, and they'd win a lot.
Because this person did not correctly follow that static algorithm, your replay proves nothing.
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No I'm not. I made this team over a month ago. Abd I did not teambuild against baton pass, I made a team I wanted to (the goal was to make a viable gardevoir team) and it ended up being accidentally good againt bp.
And if most viable teams are bad against bp, that's because most of the players refuse to prepare against bp. If everybody accepts bp as part of the meta and prepares against it, they will find it's not that hard to do. Most wallbreakers in the tier are amazing against bp, and it's not hard to have multiple of them in a team. I showed that on my video, that's not an anti-bp team I used, it's a standard team that has peaked at 1790 in the ladder before.
But by the same token, he was able to ladder to a respectable rating himself with all of these so called "dead weight" counters. This tells me that either baton pass isn't as hard to play around as it is being portrayed when proper team building is employed, or these counters that have been "refuted" as dead weight can actually fit into a team and pull their own weight.
Also, kudos to the guy that said "Mr. Mime is countered by being a terrible pokemon". That made me laugh for much too long.
The point isn' that BP isn't unbeatable. Specific anecdotes against mediocre players using BP isn't what is important.
Every team has weakness, but they can be worked around, for BP, most of the teams that are viable against the standard ladder, cannot overcome a BP team through superior battling.
You are never addressing the black and white team preview situation. Along with the huge statistical advantage of BP over every other team at the teambuilding stage.
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If anything, your video PROVES that BP is unhealthy for the game. When you have a player who makes misplays as they did (BP to Espeon on M-Gardevoir... WTF?) and has an ELO of 1751, it makes me wonder how people like that make it this high up the ladder.
Ash Borer mentioned this on post #66, but when you used to look at the ladder you could see who the legitimate best players were. Now, cause of crap like SwagPlay before Swagger got banned and bow BP, players build teams that are more or less auto-pilot and can legitimately win 80%+ of their games without any real understanding of how the game works.
Games like this shouldn't have mechanisms that allow people to "come off the street" and start winning. BP does that for people who don't give a rip about the meta and just want to brag that they have a sweet ELO despite the fact that they are using a team that requires maybe 30 brain cells to operate.
Also, to address people who say that there are enough viable checks out there like Taunt and what not; the reason that Mega Kangaskhan got banned was because of the obscurity of its checks.
You can't tell me that Haze Quagsire (just the thought of it is stupid because Unaware Quagsire alone should be sufficient for ignoring Stats, I shouldn't need Haze to avoid getting hit with a 120+ friggin Stored Power from Espeon) & Thundurus can use Prankster Taunt on Scolipede when someone is carrying a Magic Bounce Espeon for situations like that. Roar/Whirlwind fall under the same premise and even your claim, and some other peoples claims, that just going YOLO from the get to outpace BP is enough of a reason not to nerf BP is bogus because in reality, what you are really saying is that everyone should build a team around the playstyle of just trying to smash your way through an opponent's team, which my seven year old can tell you, just isn't viable in the long run if you truly want to reach the upper echelons of the ladder.
P.S. You saying that you made a team that is "accidentally" good against BP is also "accidentally" helping you ELO as that 8-0 you claim to have against BP teams is an additional 152-200 points that could've swung your ELO in the other direction. Just saying...
So if the player was better than me they would have won? No shit sherlock
And red card is not a factor imo. It's unreliable to both players, you can't say bp is overpowered based on red card, if the bp player themselves have to make bets when they decide to use red card.
Besides, I's not an amazing player. I literally joined competitive pokemon 2 months ago. High level players can make teams a lot better than mine and not make mistakes I usually make.. My point is that, assuming both players are in the same skill level, the player facing bp has all the tools necessary to win easily available to put on a standard competitive team.
No, dude. I said if they weren't clueless (i.e. they knew the algorithm), not if they were better than you. I'm saying if someone wrote down the baton pass algorithm, gave it to a 5 year old who doesn't play Pokemon, they could/should win if they just follow the instructions.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-92810958
met this random bp team low on the ladder
basically my point is that bp chains arent that bad when setting up late game sweepers either.
met this random bp team low on the ladder
basically my point is that bp chains arent that bad when setting up late game sweepers either.
So because the team you built also happened to have a chance against BP means what? That every team I build has to have a chance against it? Cause if I were to build a team like Stall I'm severely limited in my options already. You're proving the point of people saying it's unhealthy for the metagame.
Well, that's kind of a complicated algorithm isn't it? It literally involves knowing how to deal with every pokemon in OU, from aegislash to mega manectric. Doesn't seem like something a 5 year old could memorize. More like something that requires skill and metagame knowledge to do. Maybe topping the ladder with bp isn't that easy?
G
It proves that it's poasible to make a team that is good against bp abd also viable agaonst everything else, and that this is so easy to do it can happen by accident. All six of my pokemon are OU by march stats and use common movesets. Though my team is not perfect, it's functional for the metagame while being good versus bp.
Thank you for your response dear! Your opinion is very understandable and I can agree that playing against and with Baton Pass can be unfun and gets stale fast. The problem is that this is not a reason to ban the strategy, although your second point would be.
It has been brought up before that the counters to Baton Pass may not be as few and far between as most people think, but that including them in one's team, while it may make for a better matchup against Baton Pass teams, will make one's other matchups to get worse - there seems to be no in-between, and that is a legit concern. Although I feel that enough examples of perfectly viable offensively oriented Pokémon that give Baton Pass a hard time, have been given, I may overestimate their effectiveness.
After all the problem is simple: although no one has successfully proven that full defensive Baton Pass teams are broken if you ask me, their counters being unorthodox could be a valid reason to decide against allowing the playstyle as it is now in the metagame. In this case Baton Pass teams would not be nerfed because they are overpowered, but because their strategy is simply so unconventional that it can't be checked by normal means, getting in the way of teams that many posters unfortunately consider more legitimate (I repeat: I do not think this has been confirmed yet).
Although it may seem that I'm just citing the obvious, the posts in this thread make it very clear that there are still many players in this thread that view Baton Pass as a problem for the wrong reason.
I really don't know how you can say that team is good vs. Baton Pass considering that if that person went to Vaporeon instead of Sylveon vs Aegislash you most likely would have just gotten slaughtered. Regardless, posting ladder replays vs. people for whom the only known measurement of skill is ladder rating really does not prove anything. Baton Pass has auto-win matchups against way too many teams, and that is what makes it broken. No other team archtype can boast this "auto-win" advantage, and this is unhealthy for the game. There are obviously random counters such as that amazing Imprison Mushara set I saw a couple pages back, but these are basically un-viable and completely irrelevant in the metagame (and for good reason). Most of the threats in the metagame simply cannot break Baton Pass teams, and even top wallbreakers such as Mega Charizard X and Mega Mawile fail to do so. Baton Pass makes the game too matchup-oriented in that it simply defeats a large quantity of teams rather easily. If both players are of equal skill level or the Baton Pass player is a good one, the BP player will win most games simply due to the large amount of teams this archtype defeats, without needing to make very many 'big plays' at all.
Great, this is the part of the thread that goes to hell in a hand basket.
Now we are insulting and being condescending towards one another. Can we try to act with a little civility here.
Fact of the matter is that BP, regardless of anyone's personal take on it, is very formulaic with little wiggle room for change. As a BP user, you go in either saying, "I got this" OR "I'm Prince William royally friggin SCREWED!!!" There is no middle ground.
The fact that you stumbled upon a team that can handle BP is either a testament to the sentiment that you are a savant at Pokémon OR a blind squirrel who found a very good nut for the winter. (Yes, tongue in cheek)
However, not everyone can accomplish this (your team build) on the first go. What a noob CAN accomplish is building a BP team that sky-rockets them to a 1700+ ELO in a couple of hours.
That, my friend, is the VERY definition of formulaic.
"How do you like THEM Apples?!" - Matt Damon, Good Will Hunting
While I agree that BP forces players to react in uncommon ways, and that the pool to choose from is rather small, and I wouldn't be against a limit on the number of BP per team - but I've been seeing ingenious ways on the upper ladder for beating baton pass that aren't necessarily useless against 'normal' teams.
Mega Gardevoir almost single handedly runs thru BP, and multiple teams are packing Scizor, Thundurus, Heatran, Aegislash, Talonflame, Pinsir, Breloom and others which all give BP huge problems, especially when used in conjunction with each other - and the thing is these pokemon are respectable in the OU environment.
While I agree that BP sometimes gives 'lesser players' the upper hand, the response to baton pass is simply remarkable and I don't think the creativity involved should be ignored. BP is borked and I really don't know what to think at this point :S Part of me thinks it should be nerfed, part of me thinks we should let it play out and see what happens with this strange phenomenon. Although I still do believe that BP results in a large amount of "uncompetitive matches" where the outcome is decided within the first few turns, with either player forfeiting straight away, and I don't think this is necessarily good for the meta, but there have been several matches I've seen where the struggle is real, and the players play out an interesting, fun match to the end...this "it could go either way depending on team matchup" is part of what makes BP such a strange phenomenon.
BP is borked and is way too contreversial at this point to make a final decision imo - the hatred against it and the long standing tradition of "good players not using it" is a huge factor against BP. BP is essential a wild card - you go all in from the get go, putting all your cards on the table, but it is easily beatable given a few key changes in teambuilding. I really don't think this is different that including a Trapper Scarf Gothitelle for screwing over Stall teams...you add one or two pokemon with certain moves and you can screw over a whole playstyle.
I also believe Baton Pass requires a certain knowledge of the metagame, albeit perhaps a lesser knowledge than playing, say, a balanced team. You have to be aware of a handful of threats, and if your opponent carries several of them it makes it much harder on the BP player.
The stigma against BP is a huge problem, especially when approaching it from a semi-rational standpoint, and the ragequits, forfeits, and un-willingness to change so that you can easily beat BP are also a problem. BP raises a lot of questions and is generally seen as a 'cheap strategy', but shouldn't a cheap strategy be able to be pounded into the dust? If everybody agreed to pound BP strategy into the dust, what would happen? The meta-game would continue changing for sure, and I feel something strange and unpredictable would be the outcome. I really don't know what would happen if we let BP run it's course - I think the outcome would be similar though if we nerfed it - the metagame will keep changing and adapting in a creative way - and the last thing we want is a stagnant, boring metagame as Gen 5 weather wars were said to be.
I also believe that Denissss is a legitimate good player - there's no way someone could stay #1 for so long without metagame knowledge, prediction, and skill. Baton Pass may have helped him, but I think it's the combination of BP + an intelligent player that makes BP so scary.
What would happen if people adapted enough to pound BP into the dust? What kind of meta game would evolve? We will never know if we nerf/ban aspects of it, but if you inherently believe that BP is 'bad', then you are probably on the side of getting rid of it/nerfing it immediately. What I want to ask is "How can you be so sure?" How do you really know that nerfing/banning aspects of BP will result in a 'healthier' metagame?
People's creativity is often pushed to the limits in the face of extreme tormoil, and something beautiful might result if we let this phenomenon play out. BP might die out due to countermeasures, and a new way of playing might be discovered. What I really want to ask, is how do you know for sure that taking action on this will result in a better, healthier metagame? Without conflict, people devolve to laziness and complacency. With laziness and complacency comes the pressure of action and purpose and passion to fight against it. What I want to ask is what is truly happening here? Do we really know what's best in this case, in an ever changing, infinitely combinable, ever evolving game such as this? Is BP truly over powered, or is it just the pressure that sparks creativity, inspiration, and unusual tactics in the players facing it? Could these aspects be used in a "normal metagame" that results in an more unpredictable, fun, and unusual metagame in which players are doing things that impact each other in previously unknown ways?
What we need is Peace and acceptance in this Metagame, and an ability to change, react, and create. Everyone wants to win, but for many players they also want to learn and have fun, and be introduced to things that they hadn't thought of before. I feel that a strategy such as Baton Pass can result in frustration for many players, just as letting a Charizard X get to plus 2 and sweeping your team. It can also lead to countermeasures that result in a satisfying match. This is up to the council, but I really am starting to believe that we don't have enough information at this point to make an absolute decision.
Agree or not, BP is one of the most contraversial things to happen in the recent past, and careful thought needs to be taken on what we need to do.
Nerf it so that "bad players" can't get respectable ratings, or show those players through countermeasures that their strategy is niche and unviable?
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Nerf because otherwise, "You're using Stall? Lol I win gg get gud."
I fail to see how Mega Gardevoir runs through BP when Mr. Mime can switch into it rather easily. Scizor definitely isn't beating Baton Pass after Iron Defense boosts, and Vaporeon can Roar it out if it tries to set up alongside it. Aegislash can't break Vaporeon, and I really don't see how Heatran is a threat. Pinsir can be a threat to teams without Zapdos; I'll give you that. Prankster Thundurus can be an issue, especially with Taunt, but it can be played around. Breloom will probably end up losing to Scolipede, or at least letting it Iron Defense on it since Breloom needs to Rock Tomb to break the Substitute. Talonflame can be a threat at first, but again, after Iron Defense / Acid Armor boosts it basically becomes deadweight against Baton Pass. And keep in mind, there's always Smeargle who can, at the very least, force a switch from the threatening "BP-beating" Pokemon's side (you can always Ingrain or Substitute on a predicted switch, so it can usually work out, as the opposition will usually be forced to switch due to the fear of their BP answer being crippled by a devastating Spore). Now, it may seem like having all of these threats on one team would add up and the damages each one can do to Baton Pass would ultimately overwhelm the archtype, but the because of the boosting nature of the team, having these threats on the same team truly will not improve one's chances as much since many of them, such as Talonflame, can become neutered after a few boosts. This is what makes Baton Pass truly devastating. It simply has a large advantage against a wide variety of team archtypes and, unlike other teams, can win against them ridiculously easily. Sure, there are threats to the team, and sure, there are random niche counters, but ultimately the team archtype just has too many good matchups which it can win easily, and demands a nerf of some sort (best option is limiting to 4 or 3 Baton Passers on a team, in my opinion).
If he had clicked Hyper Voice when he passed to Sylveon instead of Stored Power he would have swept you clean, just saying.
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