Baton Pass - its role in the metagame and possible solutions to nerf full Baton Pass chains

[Gwerks]

This really is such a difficult topic. I've heard a lot of opinions indicating that Baton Pass should be banned on Espeon only, and I admit that this would appropriately nerf the baton pass strategy. However, I believe that this would be unnecessarily cruel to Espeon, who would plummet in usage completely. This is because Espeon often likes to run baton pass even if it is not part of a baton pass chain - it is an effective means to escape pursuit users and ensure that it can't be destroyed by the mere presence of Tyrannitar on the opposing team.

That being said, I believe that baton pass is currently an OP strategy (in the right hands of course) and generally Espeon is the major problem. Lots of teams pack whirlwind, roar and taunt - it shouldn't be too hard to accommodate Pokemon that learn these moves (namely Skarm, Heatran and a plethora of viable taunters) - which would be a simple counter if it weren't for Espeon.

I was thinking (if possible) that a reasonable solution would be to enforce a ban akin to the "drizzle/SS" ban introduced in Gen 5 that does not simply nerf individual pokemon. That is, banning the use of multiple baton pass users on one team (limiting perhaps to 2). Other people have also suggested this, and I'm posting this to show my support.

Anyways, it's good to hear everyone else's thoughts on this!
Cheers.

 

[Ash Borer]

Baton Pass seriously needs some sort of nerf because you can just hop on the ladder with it and solidly win the large of majority of your matches with it solely on the fact teams can't run a hard stop to it. You either full-out win or lose against baton pass, there isn't any room in between. The sentiment of just straight up quitting vs Baton Pass while running stall on the ladder is prevalent.

The serious problem with full Baton Pass teams is that they can be completely optimized to nullify any sort of couterplay against them. There has been some serious buffs to Baton Pass these last two gens, namely...

• Magic Bounce Baton Pass

I didn't just include Espeon because Baton Pass teams can adapt to using Mega-Absol. They already spam Substitute like crazy and a safe speed boost pass to Absol is all it takes for an oppurtunity to Mega-Evolve (you can m-evo while using Baton Pass). Anyway with just one slot you cover all of the most common of the couterplay options to Baton Pass, mostly by defensive teams. These options include roar, whirlwing, Taunt, hazard-stacking, and Encore. If Magic Bounce with Baton Pass was eliminated, defensive teams can have an opportunity to fight back against Baton Pass.​

• Scolipede

Obviously the increased based stats and access to Iron Defense are buffs from Ninjask. The +2 defense + +2 speed boost kicks Stored Power up to a nice 100 base power right off the bat. There are a lot more subtle advantages to Scolipede compared to Ninjask. Scolipede has a secondary Poison-typing which not only gives it more resists than Ninjask (including the same one Ninjask has) and less weaknesses, but also an ability to absorb Toxic Spikes. If you could get Toxic Spikes in on Baton Pass, you could at least put them on the clock. Now that isn't on option.​

• No cap on Stored Power's base power

Really dumb decision on Game Freak's part. Basically every boost on a baton pass team acts as a passive special attack boost. The effect of base power can be very misleading on how large of a difference it makes. Every 3 boosts essentially acts as a +1 SpA stage when using Stored power. Combined with the multiplicative powers of using CM itself you get this:

+2 Speed, +2 Defense (Iron Defense), +2 SpA and SpD (2 Calm Mind's)

+2 0 SpA Espeon Stored Power (180 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 310-366 (44.03 - 51.98%) -- 14.06% chance to 2HKO

When the most specially bulky Pokemon in the game is possibly getting 2HKO'ed after only 4 turns of super easy set up that is pratically unphazable, you know there is a problem. Oh yeah Stored Power boosts aren't affected by Unaware. So the primary attacking option for baton pass teams go right through their supposed "counter." Your only shot of surviving is being a dark type.​

• Addition of Fairy-typing on Mr. Mime / Sylveon

Mr. Mime gets more handy resists. A dragon immunity prevents it from being phazed by Dragon Tail, the next most common option to phaze outside Roar / Whirlwind / Perish Song. Furthermore, an increased resistance to Circle Throw means your Subs can't be touched / broken by it. So Espeon + Mr. Mime locks down any sort of phazing option you had. Sylveon is a second viable stored power user, and put the pain on dark-types with stab pixelate hyper voice. Both prevent Dark-types that commonly trouble Baton Pass teams in the past, which relied on psychic-types, from being too overbearing.
​

tl;dr baton pass has few options to couterplay, and the people who play it rely upon teams not going far out of their way to full-stop counter it for wins. roar mega-gyarados is ass lol Magic Bounce + Baton Pass is the way to go or no more than 2 baton passers per team

another advantage scolipede bears is that it is resistant to both pixilate Hyper Voice and Bug Buzz which could have been used to pressure baton pass teams that lack soundproof users. Baton Pass easily stays 1 step ahead of the opposition with all the tools they could need at their disposal to deal with threats. Zapdos, Mental Herb, Sash Ingrain Spore Smeargle, all a bunch of easy countertactics to what should beat BP.

Also, to the user that suggested Cloyster can beat BP.. All that will happen is Vaporeon sets up acid armour to +6 against it, then roars it ou

 

[sidakarya]

Regarding leading with Vaporeon or Zapdos first, prediction is a core part of Pokémon, and you conveniently forget this tenant. Because of this, the player should, in addition to having Talonflame, have an answer to Vaporeon and/or Zapdos on his/her team that works outside of beating Baton Pass (of which there are plenty). As I said before, it is all about effective teambuilding in addition to effective prediction. Remember, it takes two to play Pokémon; one player is not doing all of the predicting. That is grossly oversimplified.

...
All in all, this all goes back to effective teambuilding and prediction. If something you are doing is not working, then you have to change it. The same X will always result in the same Y. The community needs to start thinking of creating solutions to what we're seeing. Like with any team, you have to consider what your threats are and what counter-measures your opponent will use. This is common sense.

You're forgetting the big problem with saying this, and it's that by exploiting the mechanics of baton pass, which unlike hard switches has no priority, the baton pass piloter controls the momentum and one-on-one matchup of each turn. Switching with Baton Pass is like playing Volt-turn with the additional benefit of piling on boosts one after the other with every free turn, in addition to gaining momentum, and of course not having your Volt Switch blocked. It's probably the biggest reason, that Baton Pass teams are so brainless to play. There is rarely any occasion to make advanced predictions like double-switching, as you would in a normal team. You just pass to Zapdos when you see a Talonflame switch, or to a Sylveon or Mawile if you see T-Tar, etc. And because baton pass teams almost always have the first hand (or sente, if you're into Go), all the burden of prediction is probably on the person playing against it and not with it. Now this would be well and fine, were it just the switching (after all, volt-turn is a common and accepted playstyle), but that's not getting into the massive boosts, that an average baton pass team tends to amass, which yes, makes checking these threats that much harder.

You can counter-team infinitely, but I can assure you, the good baton pass team is in turn optimised to deal with almost any of your checks (and the only unstoppable ones pretty much have no occasion to be used, save for answering a baton pass team. I mean come on, why should something with a boost-ignoring ability carry Haze of all things lol), and the nature of baton pass teams means, you're likely doing all the work. So yes, many times, one player is doing all the predicting.

 

[Gwerks]

While I may not have much ground to stand on, never having gotten over 1450 on the OU ladders, I would say that Baton Pass teams are not overpowered, unless played correctly. It is not a simple skill less team setup as people are thinking it is. the task of defeating them falls to taking a second or two to read the team before you actually start the match. Now I have posted a team I run most often, which does fairly well against most baton pass teams without being specific to counter baton pass teams. As you can imagine, its not the greatest, but i choose to run pokemon I like, rather than just what are the most popular. anyway, I digress.

Swampert (F) @ Leftovers
Ability: Torrent
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SDef
Adamant Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Earthquake
- Roar
- Waterfall

Espeon (F) @ Assault Vest
Ability: Magic Bounce
EVs: 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
Timid Nature
- Hidden Power [Fire]
- Psychic
- Grass Knot
- Dazzling Gleam

Charizard (M) @ Charizardite Y
Ability: Solar Power
EVs: 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
Naive Nature
- Flamethrower
- Solar Beam
- Air Slash
- Dragon Pulse

Hitmontop (M) @ Assault Vest
Ability: Technician
EVs: 144 HP / 188 Atk / 176 SDef
Adamant Nature
- Sucker Punch
- Mach Punch
- Fake Out
- Rapid Spin

Crobat (F) @ Black Sludge
Ability: Infiltrator
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spd
Adamant Nature
- Toxic
- Taunt
- Brave Bird
- Roost

Froslass (F) @ Focus Sash
Ability: Cursed Body
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
Timid Nature
- Destiny Bond
- Psychic
- Shadow Ball
- Ice Beam

The two pokemon that should be noted here are Crobat and Swampert, who both do fairly good jobs at stopping BP teams without being specific to that Job alone. Infiltrator gets behind the subs, taunt stops ability boosts aside from speed, and brave bird takes out most speed boost passers. Stealth rock allows for damage upon switches, roar causes them to start over, and if they have an Espeon, you Earthquake them in anticipation of the switch. Its really not that difficult. If you see a smeargle when you start, throw out hitmontop as an opener. fakeout causes them to lose their focus sash, and mach punch stops their setup entirely.

To further develop my point, I don't think there are elements that push Baton Pass over the edge, I mean sure yeah they get annoying, but so does Gale Wings Talonflame IMO. I personally feel that banning Baton Pass is ridiculous, because I feel that people who actually can use a team effectively has to actually be fairly good at predicting and timing, which is not the case as with SwagPlay.

By no means is this a perfect solution, but honestly, I dont think this is a problem with a broken move, as much as it is people not liking Baton Pass. I could very well be wrong though.

Hey buds, I appreciate your post and I agree with a lot of the logic you are laying down. I use Crobat too, and have laddered up to 1808 with my team. Baton Pass users get quite heavy as you ascend through the ladder, and even with max attack investment, Crobat struggles to destroy any properly equipped team unless they're silly enough not to recognize what infiltrator does. For example, it's easy enough to take out Scolipede if it uses swords dance behind a sub vs Crobat, but no one skilled would do that.

Also, as far as stealth rocks go, Espeon is generally pretty vigilant and can switch with relative ease. Same goes with taunt and roar. To make matters worse, a lot of pokemon use mental herb to ensure they get at least one boost and run. For example, say you have Crobat vs. Scolipede.

- Scolipede uses protect and now it is faster.
- Scolipede uses iron defense, you use taunt (or brave bird, which won't get the job done at +2 Def).
- Scolipede's mental herb activates, and now it is at +2 Def and +2 Speed.
- Scolipede uses baton pass to Espeon.
- Crobat now needs a crit to take on espeon, who can easily KO or proceed to boost.

Anyways, just posting because it seems like we use teams with a similar essence (i.e. pokes that aren't used quite as much - Gourgeist, Crobat and Arcanine for example) and I know where your coming from.

 

[Flechazo]

I'll take the liberty of explaining these in bold.

Here is a list of things I can think of which can counter BP chains and which have viability in OU:

Nasty Plot Thundurus-I Because most Baton Pass teams accumulate defensive boosts easily, Thundurus-I's Special Attack boosts can easily punch holes through most Baton Passers, notably Espeon, whom it OHKOs at +2 with Dark Pulse.
Manaphy Same reason as Thundurus, except its Special Attack goes to +3.
Belly Drum Azumarill This has to be done very early in the game to be effective, preferably against Scolipede. While Scolipede uses Iron Defense, Azumarill uses Belly Drum, bringing it to +6, from which it can spam Play Rough, Waterfall, or Aqua Jet.
Landorus-I Earth Power is an effective Special move to use against Baton Pass teams before they accumulate Special Defense boosts, which are usually the last to be set up.
Talonflame I wrote an entire post on this. See that.
Calm Mind Unaware Clefable This thing is an absolute beast. Not only does it ignore Baton Pass teams' boosts, but it can accumulate its own usually with impunity. It must be noted, however, that it does not like Swords Dance Scizor or M-Mawile at all, both of which are Baton Passers, and Stored Power will still do tons of damage to it if more than 100 BP.
Volcarona Quiver Dance is an excellent move to use so that it can use Bug Buzz and Fiery Dance before Baton Pass teams accumulate Special Defense.
Chandelure Not sure how to explain this one.
Mega Gardevoir This one either.
Shell Smash Cloyster Maybe. A really big maybe.

I will probably think of more to add to this list, but this is a good start and none of these involved Taunt, Haze, or phazing moves. The point is that there are counters to BP chains, and saying "I don't want to use these" is not an excuse for banning things.

As for this:

You're forgetting the big problem with saying this, and it's that by exploiting the mechanics of baton pass, which unlike hard switches has no priority, the baton pass piloter controls the momentum and one-on-one matchup of each turn. Switching with Baton Pass is like playing Volt-turn with the additional benefit of piling on boosts one after the other with every free turn, in addition to gaining momentum, and of course not having your Volt Switch blocked. It's probably the biggest reason, that Baton Pass teams are so brainless to play. There is rarely any occasion to make advanced predictions like double-switching, as you would in a normal team. All the burden of prediction And because baton pass teams always have the first hand (or sente, if you're into Go), any prediction is probably on the person playing against it and not with it.

You can counter-team infinitely, but I can assure you, the good baton pass team is in turn optimised to deal with almost any of your checks (and the only unstoppable ones pretty much have no occasion to be used, save for answering a baton pass team. I mean come on, why should something with a boost-ignoring ability carry Haze of all things lol), and the nature of baton pass teams means, you're likely doing all the work. And that's not getting into the massive defensive boosts, that an average baton pass team tends to amass.

Baton Pass teams are anything but brainless. They require a high amount of specificity and prediction from Turn 1. In fact, Turn 1 is the most important turn of the game. If you mess up there, you lose. Period. Misplays and mis-predicts are deadly to any dedicated Baton Pass team. Play with one, and you'll understand.

Though Baton Pass teams do control momentum, every team has holes. Granted, they are sometimes difficult to find, but they are there. Double-switching is not an appropriate example because it is not common relative to other techniques. The player facing the Baton Pass team has to decide what is the best way to deal with the mon that the Baton Passer is going to switch to. That's the prediction that has to be made. You have to think of the team as an aggregate, not six separate Pokémon. That's the beauty and flaw of Baton Pass. If you are only facing the Pokémon in front of you, as with any team, you will lose. Take time to analyze your opponent's Baton Pass team. You have to decide the best way to take out each Pokémon and when. It's like cutting wood: Sometimes you have to go with the grain to get the job done.

 

[neocozmo]

While I may not have much ground to stand on, never having gotten over 1450 on the OU ladders, I would say that Baton Pass teams are not overpowered, unless played correctly. It is not a simple skill less team setup as people are thinking it is. the task of defeating them falls to taking a second or two to read the team before you actually start the match. Now I have posted a team I run most often, which does fairly well against most baton pass teams without being specific to counter baton pass teams. As you can imagine, its not the greatest, but i choose to run pokemon I like, rather than just what are the most popular. anyway, I digress.

Swampert (F) @ Leftovers
Ability: Torrent
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SDef
Adamant Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Earthquake
- Roar
- Waterfall

Espeon (F) @ Assault Vest
Ability: Magic Bounce
EVs: 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
Timid Nature
- Hidden Power [Fire]
- Psychic
- Grass Knot
- Dazzling Gleam

Charizard (M) @ Charizardite Y
Ability: Solar Power
EVs: 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
Naive Nature
- Flamethrower
- Solar Beam
- Air Slash
- Dragon Pulse

Hitmontop (M) @ Assault Vest
Ability: Technician
EVs: 144 HP / 188 Atk / 176 SDef
Adamant Nature
- Sucker Punch
- Mach Punch
- Fake Out
- Rapid Spin

Crobat (F) @ Black Sludge
Ability: Infiltrator
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spd
Adamant Nature
- Toxic
- Taunt
- Brave Bird
- Roost

Froslass (F) @ Focus Sash
Ability: Cursed Body
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
Timid Nature
- Destiny Bond
- Psychic
- Shadow Ball
- Ice Beam

The two pokemon that should be noted here are Crobat and Swampert, who both do fairly good jobs at stopping BP teams without being specific to that Job alone. Infiltrator gets behind the subs, taunt stops ability boosts aside from speed, and brave bird takes out most speed boost passers. Stealth rock allows for damage upon switches, roar causes them to start over, and if they have an Espeon, you Earthquake them in anticipation of the switch. Its really not that difficult. If you see a smeargle when you start, throw out hitmontop as an opener. fakeout causes them to lose their focus sash, and mach punch stops their setup entirely.

To further develop my point, I don't think there are elements that push Baton Pass over the edge, I mean sure yeah they get annoying, but so does Gale Wings Talonflame IMO. I personally feel that banning Baton Pass is ridiculous, because I feel that people who actually can use a team effectively has to actually be fairly good at predicting and timing, which is not the case as with SwagPlay.

By no means is this a perfect solution, but honestly, I dont think this is a problem with a broken move, as much as it is people not liking Baton Pass. I could very well be wrong though.

It's cool you brought an example scenario to boot, nice post, that's pretty awesome what you did there. However, the one thing is, not many teams would use what you use though (your strategy is cool btw), and yea there are strategies behind it, I've beaten baton pass teams without the usage of my greninja haze, but there is more to it than that I feel :? cuz some teams do really well even without the roar/physical move and when an espeon team comes, they get bashed, and it makes it unfair for them too, as they could have won that battle, but the baton pass espeon team ruined it for them, jus cuz they didn't have the right moveset, but yea I do like what you said though :?

 

[Red Cat]

My stance on Baton Pass is pretty clear from my post in the swagger np thread. It's a giant load of bullshit. Please do not suggest things like haze or focus energy mons as counters - with respect to haze, viable users are pretty much limited to politoed and quagsire (there are at least legitimate reasons to run haze quag on stall, though). These two don't fit on every playstyle and I think it's silly that a team should be forced to run haze. Focus Energy is even worse because it's a shitty move inherently that's tied to shitty Pokemon. The only even slightly relevant Focus Energy mon I can think of is Kingdra and that gets solidly OHKOed by sylveon (which also is immune to dmeteor and not OHKOed by hydro (which vaporeon is immune to)).

I don't know if this idea has been posted, but I personally feel that the cleanest ban is simply to ban multiple users of Baton Pass on a team. I don't think banning Espeon + BP is the best idea (espeon makes legitimate use of Baton Pass that's not related to the stat boost aspect) but there's never really going to be a team that uses more than one Pokemon with Baton Pass.

@ previous post

Thund can't guarantee a win vs. bp, especially if you dont' lead with it; having a free sub vs. thund I means that you can pass to something and kill it. You can win vs. it when it leads if you just sub on the first turn (if they taunt that's a problem anyway; if they np, you win, if they twave, you keep subtecting and pray you don't get full parad before you get +6 (you outspeed it at +6); at that point you pass both a sub and +6 to something else).

Mega Pinsir is not a counter but a pretty good check; definitely creates problems but there are ways to solve the problem it creates. Same goes for Talonflame. Both are shit on pretty hard by Zapdos.

Manaphy you play around by hitting it with Scolipede when it tries to set up. If you have any boosts (i.e. it doesn't lead) you just pass to Espeon, take a hit, then KO it. Roar Vaporeon fucks it pretty hard.

BD azumarill can be handled with vaporeon to certain extent.

Landorus-I is an actual problem that BP has issues handling because there's not much bp can do to it without killing itself; even Sylveon can't eat two of its moves because of Sludge Wave.

Unaware Clefable loses to Roar Vaporeon.

Volcarona is bad and loses to Sylveon.

Chandelure is bad and loses to Sylveon.

Mega Gardevoir can be impeded by Sylveon and megamawile. Its moves don't go through protect so you get a +1 speed boost no matter what. People will very happily hyper voice scolipede and get 2HKOed by megahorn.

Cloyster is bad and I hope I shouldn't have to explain why.

I'll try to respond to each Pokemon one by one.

Zapdos doesn't like Flare Blitz from Talonflame, so it does not shit on Talonflame.

Manaphy should always lead and can OHKO Vaporeon at +3. If Vaporeon Roars, Manaphy can just come back.

Vaporeon doesn't like +6 Play Rough from Azumarill.

Clefable can Moonblast Vaporeon before it Roars and come back. Vaporeon can only take so many Moonblasts before dying.

I guess you are right on Volcarona.

I don't think Sylveon can CM fast enough to survive repeated Specs Shadow Balls from Chandy, and even if it can, it can be revenge killed afterwards. There is also the threat of Trick. I don't know why I even said that garbage, Chandy can Trick Specs or a Scarf to anything thanks to Infiltrator, which makes one member of the chain useless.

Mega Gardevoir can CM when Scolipede Protects. And if Scolipede is running Megahorn, it is missing either Iron Defense, Substitute, or Protect which limits its usefullness.

Cloyster is whatever a person wants to think of it. It is an option, that's all.

 

[Always!]

So interesting that Baton Pass is here......

Honestly, what do most players who have been beaten by this have to say? It isn't a guaranteed win, even without the opposing team carrying any checks to BP, as we all know, Crits are a bitch. But at the same time, when you happen to stumble upon BP, half the time you are nearly fucked over because most players don't know how to handle it before the team has already set up, and majority of players lack a pokemon that can be even remotely useful against BP. I've beaten a BP team using Mirror Coat Deo-S (Don't judge pl0x ;-;), and after beating the Espeon, even after Deo-S got KOed, the team then was much more easy to take on. I feel that Espeon is arguably the crux of BP with Magic Bounce, as when that's gone, BP tends to crumble. However, BP can be taken down easily if you manage to take down one of your opponents pokemon, as BP teams reliance on each other are massive. While the capability of being able to beat BP teams are there, the chances of that happening are quite small unless you stick out and attempt to completely outplay them somehow, and that is only if you carry something that can check the strategy or get lucky with a Crit. My two cents are that while BP teams are beatable, it's just way too much in the BPer's favour as it is extremely hard to actually stop a chain once it gets going. And if you have to use a shitty option just as a failsafe, it's kind of stupid imo

My 2chainz Cents :1

 

[Ash Borer]

I'll try to respond to each Pokemon one by one.

Zapdos doesn't like Flare Blitz from Talonflame, so it does not shit on Talonflame.

Manaphy should always lead and can OHKO Vaporeon at +3. If Vaporeon Roars, Manaphy can just come back.

Vaporeon doesn't like +6 Play Rough from Azumarill.

Clefable can Moonblast Vaporeon before it Roars and come back. Vaporeon can only take so many Moonblasts before dying.

I guess you are right on Volcarona.

I don't think Sylveon can CM fast enough to survive repeated Specs Shadow Balls from Chandy, and even if it can, it can be revenge killed afterwards. There is also the threat of Trick.

Mega Gardevoir can CM when Scolipede Protects. And if Scolipede is running Megahorn, it is missing either Iron Defense, Substitute, or Protect which limits its usefullness.

Cloyster is whatever a person wants to think of it. It is an option, that's all.

Your scenario of Flare Blitzing Zapdos is unrealistic. TAlonflame needs to be Choice Banded to be powerful enough to cut down Scoliped initially in which case Scoli just protects and goes to either Vap or Zapdos depending on what move you selected. IF the opponent sees Talonflame and leads with Vap or Zap then you've given the opponent free turns, unless you have something that can set up on Vaporeon or Zapdos (they both can have roar..) then youre probably going to lose to a counterlead.

Against Azumarill Leads Scolipede simply has to Iron Defense then either stay in on Play Rough and ID again, then pass to Vap, or Pass to Vap on Waterfall and win, its a coinflip for the match a couple turns in, really.

Clefable may be able to moonblast Vaporeon for a bit of damage but every turn it switches back in Vaporeon acquires more boosts which buffs up Stored Power eventually overwhelming it.

Chandelure: 252+ SpA Choice Specs Chandelure Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Sylveon: 193-228 (48.9 - 57.8%) -- 56.3% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery. Even with Fire Blast in a 1v1 scenario Sylveon can easily get a CM off, then pass to Vaporeon and eat the hits up while boosting further. Shadow Ball of course just lets Sylveon boost as much as it pleases.

Regardless of all of these would be counters, some of which are not realistically counters, BP always has Sash Spore Smeargle to fall back on which can easily shut down nearly any booster giving BP the momentum it needs to get going.

 

[Red Cat]

Your scenario of Flare Blitzing Zapdos is unrealistic. TAlonflame needs to be Choice Banded to be powerful enough to cut down Scoliped initially in which case Scoli just protects and goes to either Vap or Zapdos depending on what move you selected. IF the opponent sees Talonflame and leads with Vap or Zap then you've given the opponent free turns, unless you have something that can set up on Vaporeon or Zapdos (they both can have roar..) then youre probably going to lose to a counterlead.

Against Azumarill Leads Scolipede simply has to Iron Defense then either stay in on Play Rough and ID again, then pass to Vap, or Pass to Vap on Waterfall and win, its a coinflip for the match a couple turns in, really.

Clefable may be able to moonblast Vaporeon for a bit of damage but every turn it switches back in Vaporeon acquires more boosts which buffs up Stored Power eventually overwhelming it.

Chandelure: 252+ SpA Choice Specs Chandelure Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Sylveon: 193-228 (48.9 - 57.8%) -- 56.3% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery. Even with Fire Blast in a 1v1 scenario Sylveon can easily get a CM off, then pass to Vaporeon and eat the hits up while boosting further. Shadow Ball of course just lets Sylveon boost as much as it pleases.

Regardless of all of these would be counters, some of which are not realistically counters, BP always has Sash Spore Smeargle to fall back on which can easily shut down nearly any booster giving BP the momentum it needs to get going.

All of your scenarios involve strategy and prediction which suggests that Baton Pass is not the mindless algorithm that the pro ban side makes it look like. Lead selection is part of the strategy. If the opponent leads with Vaporeon or Zapdos, and you predict that, you can start off with a huge advantage and really disrupt the chain before it gets going.

 

[Ash Borer]

All of your scenarios involve strategy and prediction which suggests that Baton Pass is not the mindless algorithm that the pro ban side makes it look like. Lead selection is part of the strategy. If the opponent leads with Vaporeon or Zapdos, and you predict that, you can start off with a huge advantage and really disrupt the chain before it gets going.

No, they do not. In the scenario of Talonflame, the scolipede user merely has the protect, against specs Chandy, again, Scoli just has to protect and go to either Vaporeon or Smeargle depending on the move selected. Against Clefable, simply roaring it out is not prediction reliant by any means. Finally, against Azumarill there is a degree of prediction but it is a mere coin flip.. you play rough and scoli stays in, you lose, you waterfall and Vap comes in you lose. This is different from a prediction in a conventional match where you have to weigh the odds, and it rewards the ability to think ahead in a battle and read the opponent based on earlier moves. It is devoid of thought.

 

[Flechazo]

No, they do not. In the scenario of Talonflame, the scolipede user merely has the protect, against specs Chandy, again, Scoli just has to protect and go to either Vaporeon or Smeargle depending on the move selected. Against Clefable, simply roaring it out is not prediction reliant by any means. Finally, against Azumarill there is a degree of prediction but it is a mere coin flip.. you play rough and scoli stays in, you lose, you waterfall and Vap comes in you lose. This is different from a prediction in a conventional match where you have to weigh the odds, and it rewards the ability to think ahead in a battle and read the opponent based on earlier moves. It is devoid of thought.

Have you ever played with a Baton Pass team before? Because it does not sound like it. If both Scolipede and Talonflame are out on Turn 1, Scolipede always loses against any variant, and once Scoli goes down the team is in serious trouble. Choice Band Talon can easily Brave Bird Scoli to death because of priority, and Swords Dance Talon can set up on it for free since Scoli usually Protects, as you say it will because we Baton Passers are mindless, and punch a huge hole in it afterwards. Also, if Scoli switches, Talon punches a huge hole in whatever switches in, potentially crippling the team. Scolipede will never win against Talonflame on Turn 1. Ever. Like Red Cat smartly retorted, lead selection is everything when facing a Baton Pass team, and even when using one. You need to think about what your opponent is going to do, because one early false move will cost you the game.

Also, with Azumarill, the safest option is to use Waterfall, since Vaporeon cannot hurt Azumarill too much. It's not a coin-flip by any means.

 

[Red Cat]

No, they do not. In the scenario of Talonflame, the scolipede user merely has the protect, against specs Chandy, again, Scoli just has to protect and go to either Vaporeon or Smeargle depending on the move selected. Against Clefable, simply roaring it out is not prediction reliant by any means. Finally, against Azumarill there is a degree of prediction but it is a mere coin flip.. you play rough and scoli stays in, you lose, you waterfall and Vap comes in you lose. This is different from a prediction in a conventional match where you have to weigh the odds, and it rewards the ability to think ahead in a battle and read the opponent based on earlier moves. It is devoid of thought.

After Scolipede Protects on Brave Bird it has to hard switch to Zapdos thanks to Gale Wings, so you can predict that and go to a counter for Zapdos. For the Azumarill case, these coin flip predictions happen all the time, Baton Pass or not. It is just part of the game. Chandy can Trick anything thanks to Infiltrator, which automatically shuts down one member of the chain.

 

[Flechazo]

Chandy can Trick anything thanks to Infiltrator, which automatically shuts down one member of the chain.

Smart observation. I was wondering when someone was going to mention Trick. That has always royally screwed me whenever I use my Baton Pass team.

 

[Ash Borer]

After Scolipede Protects on Brave Bird it has to hard switch to Zapdos thanks to Gale Wings, so you can predict that and go to a counter for Zapdos. For the Azumarill case, these coin flip predictions happen all the time, Baton Pass or not. It is just part of the game. Chandy can Trick anything thanks to Infiltrator, which automatically shuts down one member of the chain.

Infiltrator + Trick is amazing vs Baton PAss however this is illegal with Chandy as Trick is a 5th gen tutor and Infiltrator is only obtainable in friend safari in XY.

While I agree that a coinflip prediction may be part of the game I'll rebut with this. In a conventional match a coinflip prediction is necessarily a lategame scenario where either player had to have played the match such that they were both even throughout it. This means that, yes a coinflip occurred however both players had the opportunity to outplay each other earlier in the match, therefore we can conclude that both players are rather even in skill, and in any game, players that are even in skill should be losing and winning against each other around 50% of the time. However, a coinflip decision for the game within the first few turns is basically unacceptable for a legitimate competitive game as neither player has demonstrated any degree of prowess in the game and its simply up to chance.

Your point about doubling into a Zapdos counter is fair.

Smart observation. I was wondering when someone was going to mention Trick. That has always royally screwed me whenever I use my Baton Pass team.

the only trick + Inf user is NOivern, in any other cause you can just protect with scolipede and then sub on trick which blocks it giving you a plethora of free turns.

 

[Aquaslash]

I've admittedly been something of a passerby in these conversations, making the odd post here and there. I generally play more on Wi-Fi than on PS (due to only recently hearing of the latter), but I like to at least think I know what I'm doing all the same. Like I said in the other post I've been using a BP team for a really long time now, but laddering isn't really my "thing". At any rate, I feel like I have a stake in this all the same because it affects something I seriously enjoy doing.

I gotta say I take slight offense at all the insistence that BP is a brainless strategy cause it really isn't. At least not the way I play it anyways. While the members of my team were pretty much set, I had to give a lot of thought to movepools and EVs and all that good stuff. There is a LOT of prediction involved, and I agree with the guy that says the most important turns are the first ones. Most of the time, if you don't gain momentum early on, then you simply won't get it period. That can often decide matches from the start.

To me, using a full BP team is the ultimate excercise in team work. A lot of times, if one guy dies, the whole team is in serious trouble, ESPECIALLY if he takes the chain with him. I built my team with the idea that everyone can somewhat stand alone once the chain's broken but either way, it's still an uphill battle. So many things can just come in and wreck everything, especially if you're missing akey component.

Don't have a heal bell mon? Status just crippled a guy. Don't have Jolteon, Zapdos, or Vaporeon didn't get his Acid Armor off? Talonflame is raping your team. Your defense booster died before Espeon came in? Better hope you either got speed boosts or the other guy don't have strong priority. Espeon died and you don't have Zapdos or Scizor? I hope you like hazards! I've actually had the unfortunate experience of getting swept by Aegis cause while I was boosting, he got +6, one shotted Vaporeon with Sacred Sword (which ignores all those defense boosts), and proceeded to just wreck everything with Shadow Sneak.

Furthermore, I really don't see how BP isn't just an accepted playstyle, like stall or weather or HO. It's said that you can't shut it down once it gets going, but isn't that true of any well built team? How is it different from a setup sweeper getting his setup and well...sweeping! A +2 Bisharp that's got hazards up is nigh impossible to stop unless you have mach punch. Does that make the DeoSharp core broken too?

I guess what I'm trying to say with all this is that BP takes just as much thought as any other "accepted playstyle". Like I said earlier, each win I tend to get, I truly believe I at least worked for.

 

[Flechazo]

Infiltrator + Trick is amazing vs Baton PAss however this is illegal with Chandy as Trick is a 5th gen tutor and Infiltrator is only obtainable in friend safari in XY.

While I agree that a coinflip prediction may be part of the game I'll rebut with this. In a conventional match a coinflip prediction is necessarily a lategame scenario where either player had to have played the match such that they were both even throughout it. This means that, yes a coinflip occurred however both players had the opportunity to outplay each other earlier in the match, therefore we can conclude that both players are rather even in skill, and in any game, players that are even in skill should be losing and winning against each other around 50% of the time. However, a coinflip decision for the game within the first few turns is basically unacceptable for a legitimate competitive game as neither player has demonstrated any degree of prowess in the game and its simply up to chance.

Your point about doubling into a Zapdos counter is fair.



the only trick + Inf user is NOivern, in any other cause you can just protect with scolipede and then sub on trick which blocks it giving you a plethora of free turns.

1. I explained that the Azumarill scenario is not a coin-flip, for Waterfall is always the right move to pick since Vaporeon can't hurt it with the standard BP set.

2. You're relying on completely situational scenarios--that is, a Straw Man--to prove your thesis. One uses Trick when it is opportune, which can be anywhere during the game. The player will not just blindly use it on Scolipede no matter what.

 

[AceStarThe3rd]

Has nobody even considered the fact that BP teams aren't the only ones that use Baton Pass? Think about what you would actually be affecting if you try to eliminate it for one type of team

And I just use a Tentacruel with Haze.
252 SpA Espeon Stored Power (20 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Tentacruel: 56-68 (15.3 - 18.6%) -- possible 8HKO after Black Sludge recovery
0 SpA Espeon Stored Power (20 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Tentacruel: 50-60 (13.7 - 16.4%) -- possible 9HKO after Black Sludge recovery
0- Atk Tentacruel Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Espeon: 142-168 (42.5 - 50.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
-_-

 

[sidakarya]

Has nobody even considered the fact that BP teams aren't the only ones that use Baton Pass? Think about what you would actually be affecting if you try to eliminate it for one type of team

Most people in this thread are against a blanket baton pass ban...

And I just use a Tentacruel with Haze.
252 SpA Espeon Stored Power (20 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Tentacruel: 56-68 (15.3 - 18.6%) -- possible 8HKO after Black Sludge recovery
0 SpA Espeon Stored Power (20 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Tentacruel: 50-60 (13.7 - 16.4%) -- possible 9HKO after Black Sludge recovery
0- Atk Tentacruel Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Espeon: 142-168 (42.5 - 50.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
-_-

It should work, after all Espeon used Stored Power with no boosts at all. :^)

Tentacruel has less speed than Espeon btw.

 

[preserve]

Even though speed boosts are important, it's the main reason why baton pass teams are so successful. If you get enough defensive boosts up, it doesn't matter how fast or slow you are, your opponent can't harm you without getting a crit. And trick is only one time use and it's not smart to have six trick users on team. This was mention before that breaking the chain once doesn't guarantee a win as they can start the chain all over. The thing that people are forgetting is that most of the things that even have a chance at beating baton pass teams, usually gets destroyed by regular teams. The play styles for beating baton pass teams are totally different from playing non-baton passing teams which makes it impossible to prepare for both, which is why I think baton pass teams are unfair and should get nerfed. It was that long ago where 4 of the top 5 people on the ladder were using baton pass teams which shows how easy it is win with

And I just use a Tentacruel with Haze.

I actually tried this once and all it did was prolong the game because there's nothing stopping them from getting boosts up again and my tentacruel slowly died from repeated hits.

 

[Ash Borer]

1. I explained that the Azumarill scenario is not a coin-flip, for Waterfall is always the right move to pick since Vaporeon can't hurt it with the standard BP set.

2. You're relying on completely situational scenarios--that is, a Straw Man--to prove your thesis. One uses Trick when it is opportune, which can be anywhere during the game. The player will not just blindly use it on Scolipede no matter what.

1. Vaporeon simply sets up to +6 with Acid ARmour if you waterfall, then roars your Azumarill out accruing +6 defense meaning that no physically offensive pokemon can touch your entire team now, and your azumarill has lost all its power.

2. When is there an opportunity to use it? Which BP member does not carry substitute, and why would it not be up incessantly to block crits regardless? Scolipede, Espeon, Vaporeon, Zapdos should be carrying Substitute mostly. I explicitly referred to a first turn scenario vs. Scolipede as if you do not trick first turn then you will be slower than the entire BP team thanks to speed boost, therefore they can jsut sub before you trick. Even if hte BP team lacks substitute on one of its members, you can never double switch into this Pokemon as the opponent will always BP instead of switching so they wil lgain switch advantage and easily sub on your choiced attacker for free.

 

[Aquaslash]

This was mention before that breaking the chain once doesn't guarantee a win as they can start the chain all over.

While this is true to an extent, the question then becomes how much damage did the team take before the chain snapped? They might not have anything left to really get it started, OR, they might be in range where they can all get cleaned up by something.

 

[Red Cat]

Infiltrator + Trick is amazing vs Baton PAss however this is illegal with Chandy as Trick is a 5th gen tutor and Infiltrator is only obtainable in friend safari in XY.

While I agree that a coinflip prediction may be part of the game I'll rebut with this. In a conventional match a coinflip prediction is necessarily a lategame scenario where either player had to have played the match such that they were both even throughout it. This means that, yes a coinflip occurred however both players had the opportunity to outplay each other earlier in the match, therefore we can conclude that both players are rather even in skill, and in any game, players that are even in skill should be losing and winning against each other around 50% of the time. However, a coinflip decision for the game within the first few turns is basically unacceptable for a legitimate competitive game as neither player has demonstrated any degree of prowess in the game and its simply up to chance.

Your point about doubling into a Zapdos counter is fair.



the only trick + Inf user is NOivern, in any other cause you can just protect with scolipede and then sub on trick which blocks it giving you a plethora of free turns.

I didn't know Infiltrator + Trick was illegal on Chandelure. My bad. (When will Pokemon Z come out so we can get access to those tutor moves?) I guess Choice Scarf Deoxys-S could work too even if it is not its best set, but it does have other uses besides screwing Baton Pass. I guess the whole coinflip argument is really subjective. You could argue that every decision is in some sense a random coinflip, since the riskiest decision is the most unexpected, and the safest decision is the most predictable. It is a really philosophical question. Early game decisions can decide any game, it just takes longer for the result of those early misplays to be realized in my opinion. That is why I don't see Baton Pass as any different than any other playstyle.

 

[Ash Borer]

Has nobody even considered the fact that BP teams aren't the only ones that use Baton Pass? Think about what you would actually be affecting if you try to eliminate it for one type of team

Few people if any support a complete ban of the move Baton Pass by itself, I know I do not. The solution to me is limiting a team to a finite number of Baton Pass users per team, 2 or 3 seem to be the most reasonable number.

 

[Flechazo]

1. Vaporeon simply sets up to +6 with Acid ARmour if you waterfall, then roars your Azumarill out accruing +6 defense meaning that no physically offensive pokemon can touch your entire team now, and your azumarill has lost all its power.

2. When is there an opportunity to use it? Which BP member does not carry substitute, and why would it not be up incessantly to block crits regardless? Scolipede, Espeon, Vaporeon, Zapdos should be carrying Substitute mostly. I explicitly referred to a first turn scenario vs. Scolipede as if you do not trick first turn then you will be slower than the entire BP team thanks to speed boost, therefore they can jsut sub before you trick. Even if hte BP team lacks substitute on one of its members, you can never double switch into this Pokemon as the opponent will always BP instead of switching so they wil lgain switch advantage and easily sub on your choiced attacker for free.

1. As stated before, timing is everything. Azumarill should be out the field before those boosts are accumulated. You are using a Straw Man again, for you assume Azumarill is out only when Vaporoen is at +6, thus insulting the intelligence of the player. Remember, Roar has negative priority, so Azu will Play Rough first. If you see Vaporeon is on the other team, with Belly Drum Azumarill, you have to find the right opportunity to set up and attack before too many boosts are accumulated. If your opponent got to +6 Defense, you did something wrong--and most likely during the early turns.

2. Sylveon does not carry Substitute. Mr. Mime does not either, I believe. Both of them are She is essential to a well-built BP team. It's all about opportunity and prediction.