Battle Spot Teambuilding Discussion & Help Thread (read post #453, page 19)

[GateCreeper]

Thanks for the EV suggestions cant say, and I'll try out LO Serperior on my team, I just wanted to see how a support Serperior would fare.

I'd still like a little more input for the team members and movesets from anybody, as I feel this team does have its flaws. More help would be appreciated!

 

[DragonWhale]

Can someone RMT? I've been slowly adjusting this team while laddering recently and I want to know what you guys think. I didn't really adjust a lot of my EVs and threw around a bunch of 252s, so let me know a spread that might even work better. From my personal experience with this team, Suicune and Sableye seems to be overlapping a bit too much, but they handle different threats better than the other so it's hard to toss one for something else.

Suicune @ Chesto Berry
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Scald
- Ice Beam
- Rest

Main pokemon to switch in against Blaziken. Against more defensive Pokemon it stacks up Calm Minds until it rests and sweeps from there. It's not afraid of status thanks to Rest and can beat a lot of threats consistently. It's also my best bet against opposing Suicunes once it starts setting up, which is sometimes an issue, but usually I can win the mirror match up or bring it in range for my other Pokemon to knock it out. Does not like grass types. Considering changing Calm Mind for Roar, since that can completely destroy the opponent's momentum and also decrease my overlap with Sableye (which is bothering me quite a bit if you couldn't tell). A surprise Mirror Coat is also a good candidate to seriously screw over my opponent.

Zapdos @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 HP / 196 Def / 60 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Thunderbolt
- Heat Wave
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Roost

Bird check and therefore the best partner for Blaziken and Ferro. I had Toxic over HP Ice before, but seeing as I have two CM Pokemon that beats stall, I figured I use HP Ice instead to deal significant damage to Garchomp and Salamence. I honestly don't know which is better. One move would win me a game that the other move wouldn't and vice versa. Stops Salamence even better than Suicune, but not really with Blaziken. Rocky Helmet really helps against pokemon like Mega Kangaskhan and Mega Lopunny that want to be cheeky and use Fake Out or in Kang's case Power-up Punch.

Blaziken @ Blazikenite
Ability: Blaze
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Flare Blitz
- Superpower
- Knock Off

Ace sweeper of the team. Most teams have obvious switch ins of choice against a Blaziken, so I usually Knock Off incoming switches (or pull doubles if it's needed). I don't run protect, since most of the time I either create speed boosting opportunities by picking off paralyzed weakened Pokemon to outspeed everything else that needs to be outsped. Swords Dance is an option that I use if I know the opponent will switch into a defensive wall like Cresselia, Porygon2, or Suicune. It either completely sweeps my opponent or brings them to the point where my other pokemon can clean them off. I also lead with this against Charizards, since I don't really have a switch-in to those things. Blaze is for Trace Gardevoir and P2.

Ferrothorn @ Leftovers
Ability: Iron Barbs
EVs: 252 HP / 164 Def / 80 SpD / 12 Spe
Impish Nature
- Leech Seed
- Thunder Wave
- Gyro Ball
- Stealth Rock

Spore-taker and para-setter. Silences those pesky lead Brelooms that seem to appear when you don't want them to. 12 speed is to outspeed paralyzed max 100s like Mega Kangaskhan. It's job is done once it spreads the yellow colors and rocks, but it can still widdle down opponents with Leech Seed.

Landorus-Therian (M) @ Assault Vest
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Earthquake
- Knock Off
- U-turn
- Superpower

Intimidate U-Turn has its uses even in singles, and the possibility of scarf scares a lot of pokemon away. AV helps against special attackers like Latios and Manectric, which otherwise deal a considerable amount of damage. I use him just because of those insane stats, and its ability to soak up non-super effective special attacks with assault vest. I use him the least, but will use against Charizard teams.

Sableye @ Sablenite
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpA
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk, 0 Spe
- Calm Mind
- Dark Pulse
- Recover
- Will-O-Wisp

A suicune V2 that deals with threats that Suicune cannot beat, usually grass-types. I sometimes use him alongside Blaziken from time to time, and will mega evolve one of them accordingly, though it's usually this one. As a little bonus it cannot get trapped by Perish Gengars and WILL beat Aegislash.

 

[cant say]

Can someone RMT? I've been slowly adjusting this team while laddering recently and I want to know what you guys think. I didn't really adjust a lot of my EVs and threw around a bunch of 252s, so let me know a spread that might even work better. From my personal experience with this team, Suicune and Sableye seems to be overlapping a bit too much, but they handle different threats better than the other so it's hard to toss one for something else.

View attachment 37002
Suicune @ Chesto Berry
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Scald
- Ice Beam
- Rest

Main pokemon to switch in against Blaziken. Against more defensive Pokemon it stacks up Calm Minds until it rests and sweeps from there. It's not afraid of status thanks to Rest and can beat a lot of threats consistently. It's also my best bet against opposing Suicunes once it starts setting up, which is sometimes an issue, but usually I can win the mirror match up or bring it in range for my other Pokemon to knock it out. Does not like grass types. Considering changing Calm Mind for Roar, since that can completely destroy the opponent's momentum and also decrease my overlap with Sableye (which is bothering me quite a bit if you couldn't tell). A surprise Mirror Coat is also a good candidate to seriously screw over my opponent.

View attachment 37003
Zapdos @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 HP / 196 Def / 60 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Thunderbolt
- Heat Wave
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Roost

Bird check and therefore the best partner for Blaziken and Ferro. I had Toxic over HP Ice before, but seeing as I have two CM Pokemon that beats stall, I figured I use HP Ice instead to deal significant damage to Garchomp and Salamence. I honestly don't know which is better. One move would win me a game that the other move wouldn't and vice versa. Stops Salamence even better than Suicune, but not really with Blaziken. Rocky Helmet really helps against pokemon like Mega Kangaskhan and Mega Lopunny that want to be cheeky and use Fake Out or in Kang's case Power-up Punch.

View attachment 37004
Blaziken @ Blazikenite
Ability: Blaze
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Flare Blitz
- Superpower
- Knock Off

Ace sweeper of the team. Most teams have obvious switch ins of choice against a Blaziken, so I usually Knock Off incoming switches (or pull doubles if it's needed). I don't run protect, since most of the time I either create speed boosting opportunities by picking off paralyzed weakened Pokemon to outspeed everything else that needs to be outsped. Swords Dance is an option that I use if I know the opponent will switch into a defensive wall like Cresselia, Porygon2, or Suicune. It either completely sweeps my opponent or brings them to the point where my other pokemon can clean them off. I also lead with this against Charizards, since I don't really have a switch-in to those things. Blaze is for Trace Gardevoir and P2.

View attachment 37005
Ferrothorn @ Leftovers
Ability: Iron Barbs
EVs: 252 HP / 164 Def / 80 SpD / 12 Spe
Impish Nature
- Leech Seed
- Thunder Wave
- Gyro Ball
- Stealth Rock

Spore-taker and para-setter. Silences those pesky lead Brelooms that seem to appear when you don't want them to. 12 speed is to outspeed paralyzed max 100s like Mega Kangaskhan. It's job is done once it spreads the yellow colors and rocks, but it can still widdle down opponents with Leech Seed.

View attachment 37006
Landorus-Therian (M) @ Assault Vest
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Earthquake
- Knock Off
- U-turn
- Superpower

Intimidate U-Turn has its uses even in singles, and the possibility of scarf scares a lot of pokemon away. AV helps against special attackers like Latios and Manectric, which otherwise deal a considerable amount of damage. I use him just because of those insane stats, and its ability to soak up non-super effective special attacks with assault vest. I use him the least.

View attachment 37008
Sableye @ Sablenite
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpA
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk, 0 Spe
- Calm Mind
- Dark Pulse
- Recover
- Will-O-Wisp

A suicune V2 that deals with threats that Suicune cannot beat, usually grass-types. I sometimes use him alongside Blaziken from time to time, and will mega evolve one of them accordingly, though it's usually this one. As a little bonus it cannot get trapped by Perish Gengars and WILL beat Aegislash.

Here I am with another edition of 'optimising EVs for level 50'

Suicune should be 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 Def or 244 HP / 252 Def / 12 SpD since you're currently wasting a point in both HP and SpD.

Ferrothorn should be 252 HP / 4 Atk / 164 Def / 76 SpD / 12 Spe since you're wasting a point in SpD and the extra 4 will only make a difference in the attack stat. Gyro Ball doesn't synergize so well with Thunder Wave (it really is only good against Garchomp / Mega Sceptile) so maybe drop it for Iron Head.

Landorus should be 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Spd or 244 HP / 252 Atk / 12 SpD since you're wasting a point in both HP and SpD. Superpower is pretty fluff coverage, why not swap it for Rock Slide / Stone Edge?

Sableye is the same, it should either be 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA or 244 HP / 252 Def / 12 SpA.

At a glance, the team looks fairly good. What has been giving you trouble exactly?

 

[DragonWhale]

Here I am with another edition of 'optimising EVs for level 50'

Suicune should be 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 Def or 244 HP / 252 Def / 12 SpD since you're currently wasting a point in both HP and SpD.

Ferrothorn should be 252 HP / 4 Atk / 164 Def / 76 SpD / 12 Spe since you're wasting a point in SpD and the extra 4 will only make a difference in the attack stat. Gyro Ball doesn't synergize so well with Thunder Wave (it really is only good against Garchomp / Mega Sceptile) so maybe drop it for Iron Head.

Landorus should be 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Spd or 244 HP / 252 Atk / 12 SpD since you're wasting a point in both HP and SpD. Superpower is pretty fluff coverage, why not swap it for Rock Slide / Stone Edge?

Sableye is the same, it should either be 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA or 244 HP / 252 Def / 12 SpA.

At a glance, the team looks fairly good. What has been giving you trouble exactly?

Thanks. I just used the offered EV spreads that Showdown gives you for a lot of them, so it ended up that way (since it assumes level 100).

I guess one of the biggest glaring weaknesses this team has is against Mega Charizards. I don't really have switch-ins against Y, and X is a real savage against all my defensive Pokemon. I don't really have a 3 Pokemon team that can consistently deal with both Zards at once, and I pretty much lose if I guess wrong.

Another Pokemon I struggle against is Volcarona, since it can QD alongside my CMs, and Suicune loses to Giga Drain variants and Sableye isn't consistent. While it's usually OHKO'd by Mega Blaziken, if it sets up one on the switch and has HP Ground, it's pretty much GG.

Otherwise it's mostly just my misplays and/or hax that loses me battles. If anyone has any good ideas to make this team better I would be glad to hear them.

 

[cant say]

Thanks. I just used the offered EV spreads that Showdown gives you for a lot of them, so it ended up that way (since it assumes level 100).

I guess one of the biggest glaring weaknesses this team has is against Mega Charizards. I don't really have switch-ins against Y, and X is a real savage against all my defensive Pokemon. I don't really have a 3 Pokemon team that can consistently deal with both Zards at once, and I pretty much lose if I guess wrong.

Another Pokemon I struggle against is Volcarona, since it can QD alongside my CMs, and Suicune loses to Giga Drain variants and Sableye isn't consistent. While it's usually OHKO'd by Mega Blaziken, if it sets up one on the switch and has HP Ground, it's pretty much GG.

Otherwise it's mostly just my misplays and/or hax that loses me battles. If anyone has any good ideas to make this team better I would be glad to hear them.

Your Landorus should be able to deal with both those things pretty well though. It gets 2HKO by both of their STABs so it can't reliably switch in (unless Zard X is DDing) but should be able to revenge them well enough with Earthquake and Rock Slide / Tomb. He also deals with Volcarona as well...

 

[Meultima]

You'll probably want some rock attacks to take on the Charizards. Probably replace something for Stone Edge on Blaziken since it's your go-to Charizard lead, Swords Dance is probably your most expendable move especially since it's a nombo with Superpower. Sableye should be able to take care of the things you noted Swords Dance helps with. As cant say noted, you should probably consider running a rock move on your Lando-T as well. Either of these will solve your Volcarona problem in one fell swoop.

 

[DragonWhale]

Your Landorus should be able to deal with both those things pretty well though. It gets 2HKO by both of their STABs so it can't reliably switch in (unless Zard X is DDing) but should be able to revenge them well enough with Earthquake and Rock Slide / Tomb. He also deals with Volcarona as well...

Hmm yeah maybe I'll replace Superpower with a rock move, since that doesn't really help and I already have Blaziken. I don't want to deal with Stone Edge accuracy, so I might replace it with Rock Tomb to maintain speed advantage on a switch. That should revenge them consistently enough provided they don't have more than one boost. Hmmm... The scariest part is that they can dance multiple times while I try to sack a mon for a free switch. Maybe I'll send out Ferro for a "kill me or I'll T-Wave you" sort of deal. The worst part about this is that I'll have one healthy poke and a weakened Lando at best, and it's going to be hard for me to get back from that. I guess lead Lando is going to be the best bet against a Zard team, and I can potentially find an opening to set up Blaziken, after which both Zards are easilty taken care of.

You'll probably want some rock attacks to take on the Charizards. Probably replace something for Stone Edge on Blaziken since it's your go-to Charizard lead, Swords Dance is probably your most expendable move especially since it's a nombo with Superpower. Sableye should be able to take care of the things you noted Swords Dance helps with. As cant say noted, you should probably consider running a rock move on your Lando-T as well. Either of these will solve your Volcarona problem in one fell swoop.

Blaziken's role is to sweep, and without mega-ing (because Sableye needs to do so to deal with those threats consistently), the damage output is going to be waaay below optimal. I'm probably going to replace Blaziken with Lando as my anti-Zard lead, since X's EQ will destroy me. Swords Dance is essential for that very reason, since it makes sweeps that much easier to do. Its job is to KO a maximum of 3 Pokemon, so the attack drop after a SD isn't too much of a big deal since you rarely use more than the +2 and +1 Superpowers. Flare Blitz OHKOes Volcarona anyway unless they're defensive, which they rarely are. I just had trouble when it's at +1 and has HP Ground (though sometimes they expect the protect and dance again, which allows me to win).

 

[freekhoorn]

Thanks for the EV suggestions cant say, and I'll try out LO Serperior on my team, I just wanted to see how a support Serperior would fare.

I'd still like a little more input for the team members and movesets from anybody, as I feel this team does have its flaws. More help would be appreciated!

Dont you want dark pulse for your lucario? It really helps with aegislash, But you also have that chandelure wich i really like, although it cant switch in on shadow ball from aegislash. Instead of energy ball you could opt for psychic for bulky fighting types like conkeldurr. And for serperior, i think the offensive version is better, cause noone will setup on you anyway then cause leaf storm +2/4 hurts a lot to evrything except dragons and steels. Dragon pulse is a good option for serperior for the dragons. I run a mega ampharos and he is severely damaged by +2 dragon pulse if not koed.

 

[Jibaku]

@ DragonWhale

One issue I can see in your team is Speed (or rather, the lack of). Given that your only fast Pokemon is Blaziken (who doesn't have Protect to help it revenge kill), your team risks getting cleaned up by faster opponents. Greninja in particular can be extremely problematic - the old Hydro Pump/Ice Beam/Grass Knot/Dark Pulse set, which still sees a bit of use, can cause a good number of issues. HP Fire and Low Kick can compound these issues and you may be required to heavily outplay Greninja to get past it. Since your Ferrothorn is physically defensive, it won't enjoy taking Ice Beams either. Mega Manectric is another troublesome threat, being able to 2HKO your team and having 2 switch in opportunities in Ferro and Zapdos, requiring you to play around its Overheat (if it has Flamethrower instead you'll run into bigger issues). Both Greninja and Manectric can also shrug off the Prankster Will-O-Wisp from Sableye.

Placing Protect somewhere on Blaziken is fine, especially since you already have 2 setups with Sableye and Cune.

Other than that and the Charizards your other issues are not as worrisome. Certain things like CM Clefable will be rather annoying but it is somewhat rare. Mega Venusaur may be annoying but Sableye beats it 1v1. Sludge Bomb poison can be very annoying, however.

I'm currently running a similar team with Vest Azu > Cune, MGengar > MSableye, and Bulky Scarf Lando-T > Vest Lando-T with pretty decent success thus far. Charizard is still very annoying but Vest Azu helps scout out its forme, and between Blaziken, Lando-T, and Gengar, I have options to revenge it. Azumarill also helps take down Volcarona.

 

[GateCreeper]

Dont you want dark pulse for your lucario? It really helps with aegislash, But you also have that chandelure wich i really like, although it cant switch in on shadow ball from aegislash. Instead of energy ball you could opt for psychic for bulky fighting types like conkeldurr. And for serperior, i think the offensive version is better, cause noone will setup on you anyway then cause leaf storm +2/4 hurts a lot to evrything except dragons and steels. Dragon pulse is a good option for serperior for the dragons. I run a mega ampharos and he is severely damaged by +2 dragon pulse if not koed.

Glad you mentioned a bit about my movesets. I've changed them up a bit, and switched a pokemon as well, so I'll post the changes I made.

Snake Eyes (Serperior) @ Life Orb
Ability: Contrary
Level: 50
EVs: 248 SpA / 8 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 30 SpA / 30 SpD
- Leaf Storm
- Substitute
- Dragon Pulse
- Hidden Power [Ground]

I'm going with offensive Serperior and this is the moveset I have with it. Leaf Storm is there for obvious reasons, Substitute is great on those bulky waters who don't want to stay on Serp and switch out, allowing a free shield. Dragon pulse is for coverage and dragons themselves, like Hydreigon, Dragonite, the Latis, Dragalge, and Goodra, all of which don't appreciate a +2 LO Dragon Pulse, except for Goodra and Multiscale Dragonite (Maybe). For the hidden power, I chose to run HP Ground b/c it gives me a lot more coverage against pokes in general and hits Steels like Heatran hard, while HP fire is mostly expected from a Serperior, and will lose their Heatran if they decide to stay in.

Luke (Lucario) @ Lucarionite
Ability: Justified
Level: 50
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Close Combat
- Iron Tail / Bullet Punch
- ExtremeSpeed / Crunch
- Swords Dance

I decided to run Physical Lucario, since no one actually expects it as much. According to the PGL stats, not a lot of people use physical Mega Luc anymore, so I chose to run a physical one to get the extra jump on people who expect a special one. Close Combat is a strong physical move on Mega Lucario, and it beats a lot of pokes who are weak to it (looking at you Mega Kanga). Swords Dance is there so I can setup on things that can't hurt me too hard, like Mega Venusaurs lacking HP Fire. Now, I'm torn against as to what I should run for the second and third slots. Bullet Punch+Crunch is the one I'm leaning towards, since it destroys Aegislash at +2, which otherwise counters this set. However, Iron Tail+Espeed is also very tempting, since Iron Tail is a very strong secondary stab unlike Bullet Punch, and Espeed allows to outrun other priority moves like Talonflame's Brave Bird and Water Shuriken Greninja (idk if that's used a lot, but I've seen it twice in a row before).

Salamence @ Salamencite
Ability: Intimidate
Level: 50
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Facade
- Dragon Dance
- Draco Meteor
- Earthquake

I welcomed Mega Mence back onto the team. Two megas on one team is really not the best, but I've seen some successful teams on high ladder who use two megas and bring one each match. This Mega Salamence is supposed to be mixed, but I don't really know how a Mega MixMence moveset looks like. Anyways, Facade is my flying STAB, and I used Facade because Mega Mence is just asking to be statused with how threatening it can be after a DD, so I like to abuse the mistake the opponent makes if he/she tries to paralyze me. Draco Meteor hurts physical walls hard, and they usually don't expect me to drop meteors after I DD. EQ has nice coverage with Facade, and is just a great move in general due to its power and almost no drawbacks.

I've made some minor changes with the other pokemon, but those are mostly suggestions made by cant say and freekhoorn, so they aren't noteworthy to post. I have yet to try this team out the way it is now, but I will do so soon. I'll find any weaknesses existing in the team myself and make an update about it in this topic. In the meantime, does anyone dislike the changes I made? Would anyone say that the previous team was better? Also, could these movesets and pokemon changes be improved? These are the questions I ask myself, and I hope you guys can help me answer them. All the help from before has been appreciated, so thanks a lot. Keep the advice coming people :)

 

[DragonWhale]

@ DragonWhale

One issue I can see in your team is Speed (or rather, the lack of). Given that your only fast Pokemon is Blaziken (who doesn't have Protect to help it revenge kill), your team risks getting cleaned up by faster opponents. Greninja in particular can be extremely problematic - the old Hydro Pump/Ice Beam/Grass Knot/Dark Pulse set, which still sees a bit of use, can cause a good number of issues. HP Fire and Low Kick can compound these issues and you may be required to heavily outplay Greninja to get past it. Since your Ferrothorn is physically defensive, it won't enjoy taking Ice Beams either. Mega Manectric is another troublesome threat, being able to 2HKO your team and having 2 switch in opportunities in Ferro and Zapdos, requiring you to play around its Overheat (if it has Flamethrower instead you'll run into bigger issues). Both Greninja and Manectric can also shrug off the Prankster Will-O-Wisp from Sableye.

Placing Protect somewhere on Blaziken is fine, especially since you already have 2 setups with Sableye and Cune.

Other than that and the Charizards your other issues are not as worrisome. Certain things like CM Clefable will be rather annoying but it is somewhat rare. Mega Venusaur may be annoying but Sableye beats it 1v1. Sludge Bomb poison can be very annoying, however.

I'm currently running a similar team with Vest Azu > Cune, MGengar > MSableye, and Bulky Scarf Lando-T > Vest Lando-T with pretty decent success thus far. Charizard is still very annoying but Vest Azu helps scout out its forme, and between Blaziken, Lando-T, and Gengar, I have options to revenge it. Azumarill also helps take down Volcarona.

Thanks for the advice. My initial game plan was to make up for the mediocre speed with Thunder Wave, and Manectrics give Blazikens opportunities to SD and outspeed the next turn (or if they switch predicting protect it's even better) or Landorus to come in with a revenge kill. The main issue with my speed is that I can only check and not counter common threats, and so once I fall behind it becomes hard to overturn the game in my favor. I guess Protect on Blaziken seems to be the best option for this case. Scarf Landorus is really good for this as well, but I feel like it's a very difficult Pokemon to use because of all the predictions required to maximize its potential. I'll still give it a try.

Mega Sableye is slow but it's my best answer against Mega Venusaur, since Blaziken cannot dance in front of many Venusaur sets. Kee Calm Mind Clefables are a problem as you said, which is one of the reasons why I'm considering Roar on Suicune.

 

[x Shuffle]

Hi guys, first ever post on here, pretty out of my depth! I got into playing Battle Spot singles over Christmas time and it's the first time I've ever played any Pokemon game online, I was pretty amazed by how much there is to learn, it's incredible.

I've stumbled my way through matches and slowly began to improve as I recognised different threats etc, I'm still pretty horrendous sitting at around 1400 I think atm. I've been mainly using a sample team (other than a few joke teams now and then) which has is really, really good (it's the Leeroy Jenkins Hyper Offense team in the Sample Teams thread), but I feel a bit bad for using a team that's not my own. Although I am asking for help with building one but whatever haha!

I don't have any experience whatsoever with team building so any and all help is welcomed! (I haven't used these guys yet, I'm just going by what the calcs say.)

Manectric-Mega @ Manectite
Ability: Intimidate
Level: 50
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Volt Switch
- Thunderbolt
- Overheat
- Hidden Power [Ice]

This is a Pokemon that I've really wanted to use for awhile, it's speed is great and it seems like a pretty safe (if predictable) lead with Volt Switch. This is just a pretty standard set really, focusing on hitting hard and fast before switching out. It bodies Talonflame and does a huge amount of damage to Garchomp with HP Ice, however not enough to OHKO which leaves it open to being EQ'd. Overheat takes care of Ferrothorn and many other grass types that would like to Spore/Leech Seed/Poison etc me to death. Not Mega Venusaur though which looks like it could cause a lot of problems to these three Pokemon.

Feraligatr @ Life Orb
Ability: Sheer Force
Level: 50
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Waterfall
- Crunch
- Swords Dance
- Aqua Jet

I guess this was the Pokemon that inspired me to finally give building my own team a go, it just looks badass. Obviously he can deal with any Ground types which Manectric can't deal with, I'm not too sure about the set though, it's not exactly the bulkiest thing in the world and SD means I'm not going to be outspeeding much, although Aqua Jet's priority counters that I guess. Would a bulky DD set be better? Or even just a normal DD set? And I'm tempted to go for Ice Punch over Crunch due to the sheer number of Dragon types on Battle Spot.

Excadrill @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Mold Breaker
Level: 50
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Earthquake
- Iron Head
- Rock Slide
- ???

Another Pokemon I'd been wanting to try for awhile and he can do a number on the Electric types that Manectric and Feraligatr struggle with. Mold Breaker EQ just looks ridiculous, bodying Rotom-H, Charizard X, M-Manectric, most thing really, misses out on the OHKO on Defensive Rotom-W though, which can unfortunately take it out with Hydro Pump. Iron Head deals a ton of damage to the many Fairy types of Battle Spot and Rock Slide combined with the Choice Scarf removes Talonflame and Charizard Y. The last move slot though, is something I have no idea about. Most sets I've looked at online have Rapid Spin, but I don't think that's particularly useful in BS.

And as for the other 3 team members? I've considered many things, Banded Infernape to ruin M-Kanga, AV Conkeldurr to Knock Off Porygon2 and just be a general tank, Heatran with Taunt and Magma Storm to try and wittle away at annoying walls, Multiscale Dragonite to switch into things with it's fantastic bulk (or to use the scale to get a free DD off) or Staraptor with it's simply monstrous power. I guess I need a Fairy type in there somewhere with the prevelance of Garchomp, M-Mence etc, but I'm not sure which. I can never seem to end up with 6 Pokemon that look like they can cover the majority of the major threats, I always end up missing some blatantly obvious things.

I'd like a second Mega I think, the sample team I used had two, and I quite enjoyed being able to bring a Mega into most battles. But really I'm open to any suggestions for the rest of the team, and indeed the current members movesets/EV spreads etc, though I would like those three to remain.

Thanks guys! :)

 

[freekhoorn]

Hi guys, first ever post on here, pretty out of my depth! I got into playing Battle Spot singles over Christmas time and it's the first time I've ever played any Pokemon game online, I was pretty amazed by how much there is to learn, it's incredible.

I've stumbled my way through matches and slowly began to improve as I recognised different threats etc, I'm still pretty horrendous sitting at around 1400 I think atm. I've been mainly using a sample team (other than a few joke teams now and then) which has is really, really good (it's the Leeroy Jenkins Hyper Offense team in the Sample Teams thread), but I feel a bit bad for using a team that's not my own. Although I am asking for help with building one but whatever haha!

I don't have any experience whatsoever with team building so any and all help is welcomed! (I haven't used these guys yet, I'm just going by what the calcs say.)

Manectric-Mega @ Manectite
Ability: Intimidate
Level: 50
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Volt Switch
- Thunderbolt
- Overheat
- Hidden Power [Ice]

This is a Pokemon that I've really wanted to use for awhile, it's speed is great and it seems like a pretty safe (if predictable) lead with Volt Switch. This is just a pretty standard set really, focusing on hitting hard and fast before switching out. It bodies Talonflame and does a huge amount of damage to Garchomp with HP Ice, however not enough to OHKO which leaves it open to being EQ'd. Overheat takes care of Ferrothorn and many other grass types that would like to Spore/Leech Seed/Poison etc me to death. Not Mega Venusaur though which looks like it could cause a lot of problems to these three Pokemon.

Feraligatr @ Life Orb
Ability: Sheer Force
Level: 50
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Waterfall
- Crunch
- Swords Dance
- Aqua Jet

I guess this was the Pokemon that inspired me to finally give building my own team a go, it just looks badass. Obviously he can deal with any Ground types which Manectric can't deal with, I'm not too sure about the set though, it's not exactly the bulkiest thing in the world and SD means I'm not going to be outspeeding much, although Aqua Jet's priority counters that I guess. Would a bulky DD set be better? Or even just a normal DD set? And I'm tempted to go for Ice Punch over Crunch due to the sheer number of Dragon types on Battle Spot.

Excadrill @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Mold Breaker
Level: 50
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Earthquake
- Iron Head
- Rock Slide
- ???

Another Pokemon I'd been wanting to try for awhile and he can do a number on the Electric types that Manectric and Feraligatr struggle with. Mold Breaker EQ just looks ridiculous, bodying Rotom-H, Charizard X, M-Manectric, most thing really, misses out on the OHKO on Defensive Rotom-W though, which can unfortunately take it out with Hydro Pump. Iron Head deals a ton of damage to the many Fairy types of Battle Spot and Rock Slide combined with the Choice Scarf removes Talonflame and Charizard Y. The last move slot though, is something I have no idea about. Most sets I've looked at online have Rapid Spin, but I don't think that's particularly useful in BS.

And as for the other 3 team members? I've considered many things, Banded Infernape to ruin M-Kanga, AV Conkeldurr to Knock Off Porygon2 and just be a general tank, Heatran with Taunt and Magma Storm to try and wittle away at annoying walls, Multiscale Dragonite to switch into things with it's fantastic bulk (or to use the scale to get a free DD off) or Staraptor with it's simply monstrous power. I guess I need a Fairy type in there somewhere with the prevelance of Garchomp, M-Mence etc, but I'm not sure which. I can never seem to end up with 6 Pokemon that look like they can cover the majority of the major threats, I always end up missing some blatantly obvious things.

I'd like a second Mega I think, the sample team I used had two, and I quite enjoyed being able to bring a Mega into most battles. But really I'm open to any suggestions for the rest of the team, and indeed the current members movesets/EV spreads etc, though I would

Thanks guys! :)

What about poison jab for azumarril maybe? As your last move for scarf excadrill i mean. I think its a great team, you wanted a second mega and a fairy type so what about mega gardevoir? You can go for a stallbreaker set with taunt, and with its hyper voice and high special attack it can do a lot of damage to dragon types. As your current three pokemon seem like hyper offense mega gardevoir fits into that. My pokemon are a lot slower and bulkier, but i can see why you would go for these pokemon! They look pretty good to me!

 

[GateCreeper]

Hi guys, first ever post on here, pretty out of my depth! I got into playing Battle Spot singles over Christmas time and it's the first time I've ever played any Pokemon game online, I was pretty amazed by how much there is to learn, it's incredible.

I've stumbled my way through matches and slowly began to improve as I recognised different threats etc, I'm still pretty horrendous sitting at around 1400 I think atm. I've been mainly using a sample team (other than a few joke teams now and then) which has is really, really good (it's the Leeroy Jenkins Hyper Offense team in the Sample Teams thread), but I feel a bit bad for using a team that's not my own. Although I am asking for help with building one but whatever haha!

I don't have any experience whatsoever with team building so any and all help is welcomed! (I haven't used these guys yet, I'm just going by what the calcs say.)

Manectric-Mega @ Manectite
Ability: Intimidate
Level: 50
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Volt Switch
- Thunderbolt
- Overheat
- Hidden Power [Ice]

This is a Pokemon that I've really wanted to use for awhile, it's speed is great and it seems like a pretty safe (if predictable) lead with Volt Switch. This is just a pretty standard set really, focusing on hitting hard and fast before switching out. It bodies Talonflame and does a huge amount of damage to Garchomp with HP Ice, however not enough to OHKO which leaves it open to being EQ'd. Overheat takes care of Ferrothorn and many other grass types that would like to Spore/Leech Seed/Poison etc me to death. Not Mega Venusaur though which looks like it could cause a lot of problems to these three Pokemon.

Feraligatr @ Life Orb
Ability: Sheer Force
Level: 50
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Waterfall
- Crunch
- Swords Dance
- Aqua Jet

I guess this was the Pokemon that inspired me to finally give building my own team a go, it just looks badass. Obviously he can deal with any Ground types which Manectric can't deal with, I'm not too sure about the set though, it's not exactly the bulkiest thing in the world and SD means I'm not going to be outspeeding much, although Aqua Jet's priority counters that I guess. Would a bulky DD set be better? Or even just a normal DD set? And I'm tempted to go for Ice Punch over Crunch due to the sheer number of Dragon types on Battle Spot.

Excadrill @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Mold Breaker
Level: 50
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Earthquake
- Iron Head
- Rock Slide
- ???

Another Pokemon I'd been wanting to try for awhile and he can do a number on the Electric types that Manectric and Feraligatr struggle with. Mold Breaker EQ just looks ridiculous, bodying Rotom-H, Charizard X, M-Manectric, most thing really, misses out on the OHKO on Defensive Rotom-W though, which can unfortunately take it out with Hydro Pump. Iron Head deals a ton of damage to the many Fairy types of Battle Spot and Rock Slide combined with the Choice Scarf removes Talonflame and Charizard Y. The last move slot though, is something I have no idea about. Most sets I've looked at online have Rapid Spin, but I don't think that's particularly useful in BS.

And as for the other 3 team members? I've considered many things, Banded Infernape to ruin M-Kanga, AV Conkeldurr to Knock Off Porygon2 and just be a general tank, Heatran with Taunt and Magma Storm to try and wittle away at annoying walls, Multiscale Dragonite to switch into things with it's fantastic bulk (or to use the scale to get a free DD off) or Staraptor with it's simply monstrous power. I guess I need a Fairy type in there somewhere with the prevelance of Garchomp, M-Mence etc, but I'm not sure which. I can never seem to end up with 6 Pokemon that look like they can cover the majority of the major threats, I always end up missing some blatantly obvious things.

I'd like a second Mega I think, the sample team I used had two, and I quite enjoyed being able to bring a Mega into most battles. But really I'm open to any suggestions for the rest of the team, and indeed the current members movesets/EV spreads etc, though I would like those three to remain.

Thanks guys! :)

Welcome to the Battle Spot Forums! It's nice to get more users in here :D

As for your team, I'd recommend Flamethrower over Overheat on Mega Manectric, as Overheat always makes you switch out bait after you use it, and Flamethrower still OHKOs Ferrothorn.

If you're using Sheer Force Feraligatr, it's best to use DD over SD because SD requires Aqua Jet, and it doesn't get a boost from Sheer Force, while there are other moves Sheer Force Gatr wants to run. DD / Waterfall / Ice Punch / Crunch or Superpower with LO is a nice set. Normal DD seems like it would be better for the Battle Spot metagame since it's very fast-paced, and running bulk would make you miss outspeeding some crucial pokes.

Excadrill doesn't really need much in its fourth slot, so try Poison Jab like freekhoorn said, or try odd moves like X-Scissor, Horn Drill (lol) or something that can catch people off-guard.

As for team members, you're right in the aspect that you'll have serious problems with M-Venusaur, so why not try out a pokemon like Hex Gengar to take it out? You also have a small problem with SD Garchomp if it manages to setup on you, so I'd recommend a bulky poke to sponge hits like Porygon2. As for other pokemon suggestions, Banded Infernape can take care of M-Kanga, but if you're looking for a stronger poke, why not try Blaziken? That can even be your second mega since you wanted two.

I'd recommend some movesets to try out, but I gotta go, so I'll edit the post later. Don't be afraid to post anymore troubles you have with your team here!

 

[ethan06]

I like to put Stealth Rock into Excadrill's last slot so that it has something to do with a free turn if it forces something out, and it helps a bunch against defensive teams as well. Of course, you have to switch once it's used, but as long as you have something bulky in the back that can survive a switch-in then you should be okay. You won't be using it often, but it's a better overall move than, say, Aerial Ace or Poison Jab (Azumarill can OHKO with Choice Band Aqua Jet so it's sort of not a great idea, sorry freekhoorn :c ).

As for your other three, you'd definitely benefit from a Grass-type to help out against Azumarill as you do need some extra help against it - Mega Manectric still takes far too much from a +5 Aqua Jet, Feraligatr needs the boost to 2HKO with Waterfall and can KO after a Belly Drum with Waterfall+Aqua Jet but it's not a win condition you can rely on, and Excadrill is lol. I'd suggest running a Dragon-type to deal with that - most of them are faster and can take Aqua Jet, meaning that you can stop a sweep using a super-effective move. Choice Specs Thunderbolt Latios is a good example; a Dragalge with 68 Spe EVs will outspeed 12 Spe Azumarill and OHKO with Sludge Wave. These Pokémon both deal with Mega Venusaur for you really well, something that a Grass type would have great difficulty achieving (except for maybe Serperior with +2 Dragon Pulse but that's sketchy too). Dragalge in particular gives you a bigger problem with SD Garchomp though, so perhaps Latios is the better pick. Specs Latios gives you a strong Psychic attack for Venusaur, a strong Draco Meteor for practically everything else, a way of beating stall with Trick and your Azumarill killer with Thunderbolt.

 

[Jibaku]

For Excadrill's last slot I'd recommend Horn Drill for stallbreaking purposes (and to cheese a win if you're desperate...lol). It's also worth noting that due to Mold Breaker, Excadrill's Horn Drill will also cut through Sturdy (hi Skarmory). Also not a bad weapon against Minimize chansey since every other move you have will have ~33% accuracy at +6 evasion anyways, and Horn Drill maintains a constant 30%

 

[Refia]

Hi, I'm new and I threw together a team for battle spot singles! So this is a huge wall of text but I quoted the sections to make it less overwhelming. I've spent a while tweaking my team, and I'm not even close to being good at the game, but this is what I've arrived at so far. If someone could rate it I'd really appreciate it!

Some of these calcs are for EV spreads you'd probably never run into under any circumstances, but I account for them just to show I can always kill something (except for status or other unforeseen stuff)

I probably way overthought stuff (and underthought other stuff or completely missed it) but I thought it'd be handy to at least be able to see my line of thinking here.

Anyway, here's the team:

Gengar @ Gengarite
Ability: Shadow Tag
4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid nature

-Sludge Bomb
-Shadow Ball
-Will-o-Wisp
-Destiny Bond

Why it's on the team

This thing is awesome and invaluable for disposing of threats the rest of my team can't handle with destiny bond or just powerful attacks. Will-o-wisp is for neutering Kangaskhan, everything else is pretty straightforward. Debated keeping taunt where sludge bomb is, but in this case I think it's nice to be able to hit things shadow ball can't. This mega is just pure support pretty much. There might be something better to run though, I don't know.

Pokemon this set deals with

Kangaskhan/Mega Kangaskhan - Crippling it with burn is usually good enough to ruin its day. Kanga is usually going to end up being 2-for-1 anyway unless you counterteam it hard (as I'm sure some do, but I'm not expecting it every game because the meta is so prepared for it). Gengar can outspeed and burn it. Focus blast can OHKO it 43.7% of the time (accounting for accuracy), but I figure it's not worth the gamble, since if you fail you just lose gengar. Gengar won't necessarily kill it on its own, but it can pave the way for something like dragonite to set up on it. Most Kangas will either mega evolve and go for EQ or click sucker punch or just not mega evolve and fake out. If it's not mega evolved, it's probably turn 1 and gengar can just go straight for the burn.

Not really worth listing many more things because there's not really a definitive set of things Gengar can handle because it can get rid of most pokemon it wants to. Destiny bond mindgames make it a 50/50 for opponents a lot of the time and can guarantee a kill if they only have attacks.

Calcs

252 Atk Parental Bond burned Mega Kangaskhan Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Gengar: 100-118 (73.5 - 86.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Kangaskhan Return vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Gengar: 84-100 (61.7 - 73.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk burned Kangaskhan Return vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Gengar: 42-50 (30.8 - 36.7%) -- 63.8% chance to 3HKO
252 Atk Parental Bond burned Mega Kangaskhan Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Gengar: 100-118 (73.5 - 86.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Checks/Counters

I honestly really can't think of many. Most of the time Mega gengar can secure a one-for-one trade at least, which can be really valuable in a match. It can't really deal with the rare pokemon that outspeed it, like alakazam. Strong priority users like talonflame also give it a bad time. Mega Sableye or any other prankster taunt users can give it a hard time too, but on the plus side you can usually expect them to taunt so as to not lose to destiny bond and switch something in that doesn't mind it. I'm inclined to like regular gengar more for sash, but my team has no megas otherwise and I have a sash user, so I'm running this for now.

Breloom @ Focus Sash
Ability: Technician
252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature

-Spore
-Bullet Seed
-Mach Punch
-Rock Tomb

Why it's on the team

Spore support is good for mons I didn't predict or my team can't handle as well normally. It's really kinda cheap when you manage to outspeed and spore something, I feel like every team ever should bring one of these guys. It's just so good and can shut down a lot of stuff outright. If you get lucky and get more than a couple sleep turns, you can destroy things you really shouldn't be otherwise.
It can ohko a surprising number of common threats as well, even without relying on spore, if they're slower or weak to mach punch. It really hits like a truck.

Technician rock tomb is also just kinda nuts on its own, but priority and focus sash lets it beat a lot of things when there's not rocks around, not to mention most things in the game hate being asleep.

Pokemon this set deals with WITHOUT spore

Hydreigon - as long as rocks aren't out you can live with sash and outpriority 2hko unless they're running some nonstandard set.
Azumarill - Outspeeds any variant and OHKOs as long as you get 3 bullet seed hits. You can also just outspeed it and spore it if you expect it to stay in.
Rotom-W - I've never seen a set run HP flying, and it outdamages to force a switch or OHKOs in all other cases. HP Flying is guaranteed ohko on it though.
Swampert - I don't think people really run this at all, but breloom can beat it pretty much every time, outspeeding it with bullet seed. Mega swampert in the rain will outspeed and kill it though.
Bisharp - I rarely ever have seen it, but mach punch outpriorities and OHKOs, and outspeeds sucker punch as well if it's the usual adamant nature.
Suicune - Kinda depends. Most are Chesto Rest, but you can just go straight for bullet seed. Most are uninvested in speed. It needs 236 speed EVs to outspeed, and if it's EVed this way bullet seed can OHKO if you get four hits or three hits and a crit. If not invested in speed, you can usually get the 2hko as long as it hits three times.

Different attacking scenarios
Bullet seed and ice beam -> bullet seed and outspeed
Bullet seed and rest -> does nothing because you can just keep bullet seeding it
Bullet seed and scald burn -> outspeeds first hit and still has enough power to 2HKO if 3 hits most of the time
Anything else it doesn't really mind other than a really rare ice beam freeze. If it gets any setup I can't deal with it though.

Greninja - Kinda shaky, because ice beam and extrasensory, but can outpriority and kill it if uninvested in bulk.

Ferrothorn is kinda weird because you can beat any set that doesn't have leftovers 1-on-1, but leftovers makes mach punch a 3HKO and gyro ball wrecks it. So not really a check to it but it can deal with it if it has to and you're lucky enough that it doesnt run leftovers (but I'm guessing most times it will have it)

Talonflame is also another weird one because they can OHKO each other, so as long as sash is intact and breloom doesn't get burned, it can win. If breloom is damaged at all though, there's no way in hell it can win. Not really reliable either. Talonflame will probably just u-turn out.

Calcs

252 Atk Technician Breloom Mach Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Hydreigon: 114-134 (67.8 - 79.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Technician Breloom Bullet Seed (3 hits) vs. 240 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 234-276 (114.1 - 134.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Technician Breloom Bullet Seed (3 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-W: 144-168 (91.7 - 107%) -- approx. 25% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Technician Breloom Bullet Seed (2 hits) vs. 100 HP / 0 Def Swampert: 272-336 (144.6 - 178.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Technician Breloom Mach Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Bisharp: 208-252 (147.5 - 178.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Technician Breloom Rock Tomb vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Talonflame: 272-320 (177.7 - 209.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Technician Breloom Bullet Seed (4 hits) vs. 252 HP / 22+ Def Suicune: 200-248 (96.6 - 119.8%) -- approx. 93.8% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Technician Breloom Bullet Seed (3 hits) vs. 252 HP / 22+ Def Suicune on a critical hit: 234-276 (113 - 133.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Technician Breloom Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Greninja: 140-168 (95.2 - 114.2%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO

Checks/Counters

Stealth rocks combined with anything reasonably fast pretty much ruins its day forever, and there are about a billion things that can take it otherwise, Kangaskhan for instance deals 44.4% minimum on a standard set with just fake out, and return on a max atk set deals 113% minimum unboosted. This combo easily kills it. It can go first versus any aegislash to spore, but it really can't do much to it afterwards and dies to a lot of things it carries, like shadow ball and flash cannon. It can't really touch shield form at all either. It's made of paper, so its primary job is usually disabling members of the opposing team that would be hard to deal with otherwise.

Talonflame @ Choice Band
Ability: Gale Wings
252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature

-Brave Bird
-Flare Blitz
-U-turn
-??? (Currently Aerial Ace)

Why it's on the team

It handles a ton of pokemon my team has trouble with and just hits really hard with priority and it's immune to burns. I had trouble deciding what to run, but I really like choice band on it since it allows it to kill things it might not have been able to otherwise, like some pokemon it'd normally beat but that have unusual EVs to live a non choiced attack. Might be a bad idea though, I'll have to see.

Aerial Ace is just on this set to deal with pokemon packing evasion gimmicks, sleep talk is probably better, but talonflame can just u-turn breloom anyway.

Pokemon this set deals with:

Conkeldurr - a HUGE threat to my team before I added it. Not anymore. My best answer was basically play mind games and hope I can destiny bond it. Even though it has assault vest it can try to just stall out destiny bond with a fighting move. Talonflame can OHKO pretty much any set I can come up with that doesn't have a focus sash.
Mega Lopunny - Priority OHKOs it even with max HP/def investment.
Ferrothorn - Pretty much always dies to talonflame under any conditions as long as it's not choiced out of flare blitz.
Mega Blaziken - Doesn't care about speed boost or attack boosts and OHKOs with brave bird. Pretty sure this set also handles regular blaziken.
It ohkos even if it's lost its item as long as the Blaziken doesn't use some unusual EV spread.
Mega Mawile - Outspeeds and flare blitzes it as long as it's not choice locked for a OHKO. Sucker punch can hurt Talonflame, but not bad enough to kill unboosted.
Mega Venusaur - Any set that's not invested in def dies in one shot (it's a 2hko pretty much no matter what without choice band) and talonflame.

Calcs

252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Conkeldurr: 204-240 (96.2 - 113.2%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Conkeldurr Poison Jab vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Talonflame: 259-305 (169.2 - 199.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Mega Lopunny: 204-242 (118.6 - 140.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Ferrothorn: 328-388 (181.2 - 214.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Mega Blaziken: 224-266 (119.7 - 142.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Blaziken: 200-236 (128.2 - 151.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Mega Blaziken: 152-180 (81.2 - 96.2%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Mega Mawile: 168-200 (107 - 127.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Venusaur: 156-186 (83.4 - 99.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Checks/Counters

Itself actually since it kills itself (well not really, but it certainly doesn't help), and stealth rocks. Rotom-h completely destroys it, Porygon2 can live anything it has and Tbolt it to death, basically anything bulky that can live a brave bird and hit it supereffectively can usually kill it after recoil damage (plenty of strong neutral hits can knock it out too). Also, mega kangaskhan can OHKO it on the switch unboosted or just take any damage it can dish out and OHKO back.

Rotom-W @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Levitate
252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA
Bold Nature

-Trick
-Volt Switch
-Thunderbolt
-Hydro Pump

Why it's on the team

My main answer for suicune and a lot of other mons that hate being choiced. Tricking the scarf onto suicune renders it basically useless, and it can keep the scarf to outspeed some things and dispose of them. It's one of the best defensive pokemon in my opinion just cause it walls a lot of things very effectively. Volt switch lets it get out if it needs to, and the other moves are just strong attacks. I'm not the biggest fan of hydro pump because of the accuracy, but rotom gets a ridiculously tiny movepool, so I can't complain too much. I was using rotom-h, but it's just...not reliable at all once it overheats IMO. Also, rotom-w is more often than not a safe switch-in, which is handy.

Most rotoms run some unusual-looking combo of EVs, but I didn't know what's normal for battle spot so I just went with the standard 252/252/4.

Pokemon this set deals with

Suicune - As mentioned above, it can't really do anything nasty if it can only calm mind or only use regular attacks. Also, for some reason, Rotom-W has base 86 speed and Suicune has base 85 speed, so uninvested suicune will always get choiced first and then be locked into the move without being able to switch.
Porygon2 - I've had this happen to me a lot, and it's extremely annoying. Getting rid of Porygon2's eviolite opens it up to a lot more threats and makes it harder for it to heal off the damage.
Talonflame - Can switch into it, take any attack twice, and OHKO it with hydro pump.
Heatran - Can live most of its attacks and outdamage it or just force it into a move.
Mega Slowbro - Thunderbolt wrecks it even after calm mind, if it gets in same turn. Thunderbolt hits faster for 63% damage minimum and thunderbolt can hit it again for 42% damage minimum after calm mind. Locking it into one move also kind of ruins its day.
Aegislash - Not quite, but trick can make things a lot harder for it, essentially locking it into blade form.

A lot of other things I'm forgetting, this guy is just so versatile and fits on just about any team.

Calcs

(Calcs for suicune/porygon2 are just to show it can live their usual attacks)
0 SpA Rotom-W Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Suicune: 96-114 (46.3 - 55%) -- 5.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
4 SpA Suicune Scald vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-W: 20-24 (12.7 - 15.2%) -- possibly the worst move ever
4 SpA Suicune Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-W: 15-18 (9.5 - 11.4%) -- possibly the worst move ever
+1 252 SpA Porygon2 Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-W: 63-75 (40.1 - 47.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-W: 42-51 (26.7 - 32.4%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-W: 42-51 (26.7 - 32.4%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
4 SpA Rotom-W Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Talonflame: 176-210 (115 - 137.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
4 SpA Heatran Hidden Power Grass vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-W: 56-66 (35.6 - 42%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
4 SpA Heatran Eruption (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-W: 51-60 (32.4 - 38.2%) -- 95.4% chance to 3HKO
4 SpA Heatran Lava Plume vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-W: 27-32 (17.1 - 20.3%) -- possible 5HKO
0 SpA Rotom-W Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Heatran: 90-108 (45.4 - 54.5%) -- 4.3% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Rotom-W Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Slowbro: 128-152 (63.3 - 75.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 SpA Rotom-W Thunderbolt vs. +1 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Slowbro: 86-104 (42.5 - 51.4%) -- 5.9% chance to 2HKO

Checks/Counters

Mold breaker EQers, Breloom's bullet seed, Mega Venusaur, Draco Meteor users like Latios and Hydreigon. Porygon2 can outstall it even after removing eviolite if they're the only two pokemon left. Basically any really powerful offensive threat that can hit it supereffectively with grass or doesn't mind being tricked a scarf.

Porygon2 @ Eviolite
Ability: Trace
252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature

-Ice Beam
-Foul Play
-Recover
-Thunder Wave

Why it's on the team

Pokemon named Mega Salamence.

And a bunch of other stuff really, this thing is a wall among walls that can actually do things sometimes. It's usually a safe switch-in and can recover back and threaten a lot of things. Thunder Wave sets up for itself or teammates to occasionally not be attacked, creating stall opportunities to gain momentum or simply allowing other threats to go before their opponents. Ice beam hits a ton of things really hard even though this porygon is defensive, and foul play is for powerful attackers. I used to run toxic, but steel types were usually the pokemon I most wanted to toxic, like ferrothorn for example, but it's impossible, so I'm running twave now just because I expect it to be more useful in general and electric types are less common by my estimation. I've been heavily considering download, because it lets it hit things that much harder and guarantees the mega salamence OHKO, but I'm still not sure.

Pokemon this set deals with

Mega Salamence - as mentioned, dies almost every time to its ice beam. Can outdamage recovery on bulkier sets.
Garchomp - Can outdamage most sets and OHKO or 2HKO. Probably couldn't handle a bulkier set with boosts though.
Landorus-T - Threatens OHKO with ice beam on a lot of sets and 2HKO on others, guaranteed to outlive 2 superpowers unless it's using life orb, but it can use twave and scout for it that turn and then recover stall until it loses a turn and proceed to 2hko it. Can also outrecover most of its common moves. Twave makes most sets not as good against it, since it gets outsped.

Calcs

0 SpA Porygon2 Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mega Salamence: 112-132 (55.4 - 65.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 SpA Porygon2 Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Salamence: 156-188 (91.7 - 110.5%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO
0 SpA Porygon2 Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Mega Salamence: 176-208 (103.5 - 122.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
0 SpA Porygon2 Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Garchomp: 180-216 (98.3 - 118%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
0 SpA Porygon2 Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Garchomp: 116-140 (53.9 - 65.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Eviolite Porygon2: 63-75 (32.8 - 39%) -- 99.5% chance to 3HKO
0 SpA Porygon2 Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-T: 172-204 (87.7 - 104%) -- 25% chance to OHKO
0 SpA Porygon2 Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Landorus-T: 132-156 (67.3 - 79.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Porygon2 Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Assault Vest Landorus-T: 88-108 (44.8 - 55.1%) -- 60.2% chance to 2HKO

Checks/Counters

Conkeldurr can usually straight up beat it. Twaving it just makes it more of a threat, and drain punch usually ensures it can outstall it one on one. Mega lucario is an obvious threat that comes to mind, but this set can live a close combat if it doesn't crit, but it'll be almost dead anyway and Porygon2 doesn't have much to hurt it back with and then it dies next turn. Breloom outspeeds and spores it and then it comes down to luck, but most of the time it can win. It still almost dies from one ice beam though, so if it's damaged already, there's still a chance porygon2 can win, but it's slim. Really anything powerful that can punch through its defenses or use Knock Off on its eviolite and then bust through it can beat it, and Knock Off is pretty prevalent from what I can tell.

Dragonite @ Lum Berry
Ability: Multiscale
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant nature

-Dragon Dance
-Outrage
-Extremespeed
-Earthquake

Why it's on the team

One of my favorite pokemon in general and a significant wincon for my team. I somehow ALSO realized without actually realizing it until later that it makes Charizards do their own guessing game to survive it, which is good because I originally was going to run ttar for zard y, but this thing can deal with both potentially. If I see one I lead with it because I anticipate they'll lead with zard to set up. It's one of my main wincons, and a priority threat the opponent has to deal with. Even without multiscale up, this thing is a monster.

Pokemon this set deals with

Charizard X and Y - Makes them guess what I'm holding themselves. Lum berry to live will-o-wisp or weakness policy? Who knows? Outrage OHKOs the bulky X will-o-wisp set and forces it to guess. With Lum Berry it can always OHKO the standard bulky X with unboosted outrage, so most zard X take risks staying in already unless it's fully invested in HP and Def, which isn't really practical for it. Even if it has full physical bulk, though, extremespeed knocks it out. For zard Y, it threatens the same thing. Dragonite has a chance to OHKO zard Y with unboosted outrage and can take a hit from anything it has in the sun and then hit again with extremespeed. The only charizards that live this set are extremely heavily physically invested charizard Ys. On most Charizards it threatens OHKO and forces them to guess a lot, even if they already know dragonite can OHKO it. Dragonite can't really switch into it, but not much can anyway. Most of the time it's safe to expect lead charizard though.
Garchomp - It can live most of its attacks thanks to multiscale and threaten OHKO back with outrage, or if a defensive set outrage/extremespeed combo guarantees the kill. It loses to SD though.
Aegislash - Kind of. Weakness policy aegislash with fully invested bulk kind of ruins it. If rotom has set up on it with trick though it gets blown away, and dragonite can live its attacks if it stays in and OHKO it 43% of the time.

Anything that can't cripple it fast or stop it from setting up basically, there's a ton of things that don't enjoy a boosted dragonite.

Calcs

252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Dragon Claw vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Multiscale Dragonite: 103-123 (62 - 74%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Dragon Pulse vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Multiscale Dragonite: 56-67 (33.7 - 40.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Dragonite Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Mega Charizard X: 170-204 (91.8 - 110.2%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Dragonite Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Mega Charizard X: 39-46 (21 - 24.8%) -- guaranteed 5HKO
252+ Atk Dragonite Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Mega Charizard Y: 106-126 (57.2 - 68.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Dragonite Outrage vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Charizard Y: 139-165 (90.8 - 107.8%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Dragonite Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Garchomp: 188-224 (87.4 - 104.1%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Dragonite Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Garchomp: 42-50 (19.5 - 23.2%) -- possible 5HKO

Checks/Counters

Greninja can KO through multiscale with protean life orb ice beam, but if dragonite dragon dances on the switch it can OHKO unscarfed greninja with outrage. Mega kanga can fake out and break multiscale and then kill it, stealth rocks let any reasonably powerful attacker just knock it out (though I like to lead it so it's not usually relevant to dragonite). Mega/Sableye is kind of a counter, it can't really do a whole ton to it on its own but it can burn it and ruin its chance of doing anything later. Ferrothorn can also wall this set. This set also loses to opposing banded dragonite outrage.

Please let me know about any changes you'd make; since I'm not really experienced when it comes to making teams, there's bound to be a ton of threats or obvious moves I should be running that I missed. I don't mean to clog up the RMT or anything but I spent way too long on this so I figured it should at least post it. Thanks!

 

[GateCreeper]

Welcome to the forums, Refia. There's just a few things I'd like to point out.

Rotom's EVs are a bit odd for that set. Also, in the way you're using it, I'd consider trying out Specs Rotom to ruin some of those bulky pokes, and you also get to OHKO pokes like Heatran if you run Specs with 252 SpAtk and 252 Spe. Rotom-W doesn't really need bulk on a set like this, even if you wish to counter Talonflame, as Porygon2 is there for that.

Keep in mind that Dragonite can't Outrage and then Extremespeed, as it will be locked into outrage for 2 or 3 turns, but the Zards still shouldn't be a problem to your team, as if they go max physical bulk, you'll outspeed the second turn and KO them.

Breloom can take care of Suicune if its sash is still intact, or at least heavily damage it before it faints. Rotom-W or another poke can just finish up the damage that Breloom did.

Some pokemon you may need to play smart around and watch out for are bulky pokes, especially Cresselia. Your only method of beating of it efficiently would be to trick a Choice item onto it and hope it uses some move like Thunder Wave, Toxic, or Moonlight to be locked into, or bring M-Gengar and bring down it down with a correctly played Destiny Bond, or do a sizeable amount of damage to it for another poke to clean up.

Don't take my word on this, but your weakest link in your team is probably Rotom-W, so if you run into any specific problems while playing with this team, consider taking it out for another poke that can deal with bulky pokes and take care of the problem.

Otherwise, this is a very nice, solid, and standard team, so you can try playing with it and manage to do well with it.

 

[Refia]

Welcome to the forums, Refia. There's just a few things I'd like to point out.

Rotom's EVs are a bit odd for that set. Also, in the way you're using it, I'd consider trying out Specs Rotom to ruin some of those bulky pokes, and you also get to OHKO pokes like Heatran if you run Specs with 252 SpAtk and 252 Spe. Rotom-W doesn't really need bulk on a set like this, even if you wish to counter Talonflame, as Porygon2 is there for that.

Keep in mind that Dragonite can't Outrage and then Extremespeed, as it will be locked into outrage for 2 or 3 turns, but the Zards still shouldn't be a problem to your team, as if they go max physical bulk, you'll outspeed the second turn and KO them.

Breloom can take care of Suicune if its sash is still intact, or at least heavily damage it before it faints. Rotom-W or another poke can just finish up the damage that Breloom did.

Some pokemon you may need to play smart around and watch out for are bulky pokes, especially Cresselia. Your only method of beating of it efficiently would be to trick a Choice item onto it and hope it uses some move like Thunder Wave, Toxic, or Moonlight to be locked into, or bring M-Gengar and bring down it down with a correctly played Destiny Bond, or do a sizeable amount of damage to it for another poke to clean up.

Don't take my word on this, but your weakest link in your team is probably Rotom-W, so if you run into any specific problems while playing with this team, consider taking it out for another poke that can deal with bulky pokes and take care of the problem.

Otherwise, this is a very nice, solid, and standard team, so you can try playing with it and manage to do well with it.

Thanks for the tips, somehow I managed to completely forget about outrage mechanics while doing calcs lol. I guess it at least makes Charizard matchups unfavorable, as if they go for burn I still win, but I don't know. I was looking for an opportunity to use Dragonite on my team and Charizard was giving it a hard time, so I figured that was it. I wasn't really sure how to EV rotom so that suggestion is probably a better idea. I'm also not really sure my team has anything for Sableye, so I'll probably have to work on that.

 

[HydreigonIsOP]

Thanks for the tips, somehow I managed to completely forget about outrage mechanics while doing calcs lol. I guess it at least makes Charizard matchups unfavorable, as if they go for burn I still win, but I don't know. I was looking for an opportunity to use Dragonite on my team and Charizard was giving it a hard time, so I figured that was it. I wasn't really sure how to EV rotom so that suggestion is probably a better idea. I'm also not really sure my team has anything for Sableye, so I'll probably have to work on that.

Ofc you can also change up Rotom's move set to WOW/Volt Switch-Tbolt/Hydro Pump/Pain Split if you want to keep that ev spread and change the item to leftovers, sitrus berry, or Rocky Helmet.

 

[Refia]

Ofc you can also change up Rotom's move set to WOW/Volt Switch-Tbolt/Hydro Pump/Pain Split if you want to keep that ev spread and change the item to leftovers, sitrus berry, or Rocky Helmet.

Yeah, it's a good set and the one I had before this (and the reason my EVs are like that) but I got completely trashed by the trick set and it deals with some stuff so I'll probably try keeping it and just changing the EVs. Although I don't have anything with rocky helmet for kanga, but at least dragonite can set up on it when it's burned and take it out with minimal damage. I thought about running roost on that set, but it's not bulky so it's probably not worth it i guess. Weakness policy was kinda made for it but it needs lum to have a real chance against charizard :/

 

[GateCreeper]

Almost forgot to mention Refia, the last move in Talonflame's moveset should can be something more useful, like Tailwind to make your team faster or Will-O-Wisp to burn a poke and switch out. These moves will be more useful overall than Aerial Ace, considering how weak it is on Talonflame. Mega Kanga shouldn't be too much of a problem unless if it has Substitute, which will cause problems. Mega Sableye is indeed a problem to your team, but it isn't too common on Battle Spot Singles, so don't worry too much about it.

 

[Refia]

Almost forgot to mention Refia, the last move in Talonflame's moveset should can be something more useful, like Tailwind to make your team faster or Will-O-Wisp to burn a poke and switch out. These moves will be more useful overall than Aerial Ace, considering how weak it is on Talonflame. Mega Kanga shouldn't be too much of a problem unless if it has Substitute, which will cause problems. Mega Sableye is indeed a problem to your team, but it isn't too common on Battle Spot Singles, so don't worry too much about it.

Yeah, I really had a couple ideas of what to put in the last slot but I don't expect to use it often. Tailwind sounds like a good idea though. Thanks for all the help.

 

[x Shuffle]

Wow, thanks for all the great suggestions to improve/finish my team guys!

I've updated the Feraligatr to a DD set, gave M-Manectric Flamethrower and put Horn Drill on Excadrill (until the shame consumes me lol and I change it to Stealth Rock). The Latios set that was suggested by ethan06 just looked fantastic, so that's gone straight in. Blows away Azumarill, Conkeldurr, Blaziken, M-Venusaur and most Dragons provided they aren't scarfed or a M-Mence which has already Mega'd as I wouldn't be able to outspeed it.

Description

Manectric-Mega (M) @ Manectite
Ability: Intimidate
Level: 50
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Volt Switch
- Thunderbolt
- Flamethrower
- Hidden Power [Ice]

Feraligatr (M) @ Life Orb
Ability: Sheer Force
Level: 50
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Waterfall
- Ice Punch
- Dragon Dance
- Crunch

Excadrill (M) @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Mold Breaker
Level: 50
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Earthquake
- Iron Head
- Rock Slide
- Horn Drill

Latios @ Choice Specs
Ability: Levitate
Level: 50
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Draco Meteor
- Psyshock
- Thunderbolt
- Trick

Which leaves me with two slots left, a second mega and something else. M-Kanga walks all over me at the moment so the M-Blaziken shout from Creeper3971 looks pretty solid, rinses M-Kanga, . Although it's another Pokemon that Azumarill can walk all over which could be a problem if Latios got taken out. With regards to it's moveset, is Protect something that you 100% have to have? I only ask because having Knock Off would be pretty nice and it's v.predictable that I would Protect first turn for the Speed Boost and my opponent could DD/SD or have an easy switch? Or is Protect just something that is absolutely necessary? Also, which is the best Fighting type move to run, Low Kick or High Jump Kick or Sky Uppercut? For the last one I was looking at a bulky Togekiss because 60% chance of flinch is just disgusting. Plus it can pack Dazzling Gleam to body Dragon types as well as some Fighting types if I couldn't bring Latios into a battle for whatever reason. Then T-Wave and Roost which seem pretty standard on a Togekiss build I guess.

Description

Blaziken-Mega (M) @ Blazikenite
Ability: Speed Boost
Level: 50
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Low Kick/High Jump Kick/Sky Uppercut
- Flare Blitz
- Knock Off/Protect
- Swords Dance

Togekiss (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Serene Grace
Level: 50
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
- Air Slash
- Dazzling Gleam
- Roost
- Thunder Wave

Or an alternative for the final two could be the M-Gardevoir that freekhorn suggested along with a non-mega Blaziken, although that would mean I'd have to run it with Leftovers or Sitrus etc as that's all I have left really. The M-Gardevoir does look like a powerhouse though, it's just it's speed coupled with it's low defence which is a bit concerning meaning I wouldn't be able to get near M-Mence. Maybe I could invest in HP, I'm not sure. I've put Hyper Voice and Psyshock on it which are pretty standard, along with Shadow Ball for (EDIT not sure why I've given it this) because Focus Blast seems a bit unreliable for my liking. I've got Taunt in the last slot over Calm Mind for Stall users and I've already got Blaziken and Gatr which can set-up. The Blaziken set is just the same as above, just not Mega-Blaziken, the same questions about it's set remain. (Plus the item haha)

Description

Gardevoir-Mega (F) @ Gardevoirite
Ability: Pixilate
Level: 50
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Hyper Voice
- Psyshock
- Shadow Ball/???
- Taunt/Calm Mind

Blaziken (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Speed Boost
Level: 50
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Low Kick/High Jump Kick/Sky Uppercut
- Flare Blitz
- Knock Off/Protect
- Swords Dance

Which of the two (for the final two slots of the team) looks better do you guys think? Or is there some obvious suggestions which would work even better maybe.

My immediate concerns with the team would be M-Mence and maybe Porygon2 if I end up going for Protect over Knock Off on Blaziken. But knowing me there'll be something blatantly obvious that I've forgotten about which can absolutely wreck havoc with my team. (Gengar and WP Aegislash?)

 

[mhykah]

x Shuffle Which of the two twos? I say that there's no harm in trying them both! Sorry to say that I can't offer an opinion on which one looks better but theory-crafting can only bring you so far. It would be good to try both ideas for the team and see how they both play out. This is just a very general tip but yeah, it would help to just playtest them on Showdown!