Berry Juice

[iss]

After some further consideration, I think that Berry Juice should not be unbanned due to the many reasons already stated in this thread.

 

[fatty]

all the other metagames didn't have eviolite though...which outclasses it by far in numerous instances, as also shown in this thread.

 

[Furai]

I think Heysup's post pretty much summed up why Berry Juice should remain banned.

 

[Trakyan]

Well, just a suggestion here. Berry juice for alot of pokemon wont be doing much more than an oran berry since alot of pokemon have around 20-25 HP and oran kicks in halfway through as well as with gligar gone one of the main pokemon to abuse it is gone, it would also give munchlax a second wind so perhaps it would bring back some old faces. There is also the defense drop which alows the berry juice user to be able to be OHKOed or 2HKOed more often. I think it at least deserves a test this gen due to the advent and reliance of eviolite for alot of things.

 

[Heysup]

I don't mean to be rude or condescending but I don't think you've read the thread or understood the arguments said.

 

[Seven Deadly Sins]

I don't mean to sound like I'm trying to dodge putting content into this post or like you guys don't know what you're talking about, but every single metagame I've played that had Berry Juice in them (read: all the metagames with BJ) were awful shitstorms. The people who are arguing for bj to be unbanned are people who, for the most part, have not played with bj extensively, iss being the exception. It may sound dismissive, but I'd rather chalk this one up to "we've tried it, let's just leave it alone forever" like we did with Scyther.

No offense to everyone in the thread but most arguments I've read here are out of scope for Berry Juice's brokeness (ie. defensive Pokemon, Recycle, etc) or are severely underestimating of the effects being shot up to full HP after a boost.

In little cup, the only real ways to beat down set-up Pokemon is through very fast Scarfers, priority or (new to gen 5...) immensely bulky Eviolite users. If I'm Omanyte, I use Shell Smash, I'm taking a hit, probably losing 60-70% at the very least. I'm now low enough for almost anything that isn't relying on a weak Quick Attack or Ice Shard to KO me but I can sweep if you don't have anything to take the hit or priority.

Now imagine what it's like when all of those methods are made useless. If you don't OHKO a Pokemon, you automatically 3-4HKO it. There are no 2HKOes anymore. Your Frillish can't even reliably take out Omanyte with Surf (has something like a 6.25% to KO) and it can 2HKO you easily. I'll give you even scarier examples, lets start with Bagon. It's scary to think about how only crazy powerful Pokemon such as Flight Gem boosted Acrobatics Gligar can even come close to OHKOing Bagon, meaning you otherwise let Bagon get 2 Dragon Dances. Dratini has similar bulk on the special side and has access to fucking ExtremeSpeed.....not even priority can help after 2 Dragon Dances. How about not being able to do anything with Frillish while Misdreavus sets up an absolutely free Nasty Plot while retaining it's 100% HP. Have you ever tried to OHKO Misdreavus...? Even Stunky loses because you can 2HKO him with Shadow Ball -> HP Fighting and avoid Berry Juice or straight up OHKO him with Hidden Power Ground (why it's not as useful on defensive Pokemon).

I have yet to reveal the most devastating strategy for use with Berry Juice too, if you aren't familiar with it. I'm sure someone will come up with a list of calcs of relevant set up Pokemon that are OHKOed. Then you go on the ladder, see an Abra.

"What's this Abra going to do...."

Turn 1 Reflect, Turn 2 Light Screen. Turn 3 go to Bagon, Turn 4 "LOL didn't you see my Bronzor" while he sets up a DD. Turn 5 you HP Ice and realize that it 5HKOes, get gets another DD. Turn 6 you HP Ice again, he's now at full HP and +3. If you use Berry Juice you get OHKOed 100% of the time right here, if you use Eviolite you have a good chance to survive so he Dragon Dances again and with at worst ~60% of his HP left it can now outpace and OHKO almost every Pokemon in the metagame with Fire Fang, Dragon Claw, and <filler/Substitute> while only being touched by Ice Shards that still don't even KO.

Now imagine Dratini who takes even less from HP Ice and can't be stopped by priority.

Another thing that is not being considered is the use of Encore users. You can't always choose whether or not you get the right Pokemon out to OHKO another Pokemon. (ehem) Back in the day, you go to Wynaut or even just sacrifice something then bam you have Krabby with +2Atk+2Speed and still full HP....and you win just like that.

tl;dr stop underestimating Berry Juice.

This. Back when I was running things in generation 4, Berry Juice was the bar none worst thing in the entire metagame. There are no 2HKOs in a Berry Juice metagame, only OHKOs and 3HKOs. The result is that you use Berry Juice to set up an unstoppable setup mon that gets all the OHKOs, and win. Dual Screens just makes the problem even worse (now instead of OHKO/3HKO it's 3HKO/5HKO), and with the absolutely devastating setup Pokemon present (especially new Shell Smash users) I see no reason to even consider unbanning it.

 

[Ray Jay]

During the last suspect round (when Berry Juice was a suspect), I know much of the council (including myself) played a Berry Juice metagame to see how it would go. The result is almsot identical to the complaints posited in this thread, most notably, the problem of Dual Screens.

Bulk in LC is really a mixed bag, some Pokes are awful, others shine above the rest. I remember facing a Misdreavus with Berry Juice behind Dual Screens and it was not fun. I remember facing lead Dwebble with Berry Juice as a first mon smashing and it was not fun. I remember Berry Juice just being not fun and imbalanced in general. The issue isn't that everything uses Berry Juice (most use Eviolite still), the issue is the few things that do make absolutely insane use of Berry Juice. And it's much easier to keep Berry Juice banned than all of those set up sweepers.

The council voted unanimously on this issue, and the posts in this thread are very polarized. Furthermore, Berry Juice is no longer a suspect for these reasons. We're going to go ahead and close this for now.