1. Welcome to Smogon Forums! Please take a minute to read the rules.
  2. Click here to ensure that you never miss a new SmogonU video upload!

BL Tier Analysis from r/Stunfisk

Discussion in 'BW OU' started by DudeWynaut, Mar 4, 2013.

  1. DudeWynaut


    Jul 23, 2012
    Entries have been edited to remove all links, including those to reddit and the battle video replayer.

    Hello everyone!

    My name is DudeWynaut and this is my first official post on Smogon. I've come today to showcase a complete analyses of the Smogon BL Tier by members of the readership from r/Stunfisk. We are one of the largest and most active competitive pokemon subreddits on reddit and we would like to offer our two cents on competitive analyses. We learned a lot from writing these articles. To begin with, it's very challenging to gauge exactly where BL pokemon should be if they cannot be tested in both the OU and UU tiers. This is the margin of error for the analyses. Secondly, one write-up per pokemon is not enough. This is a result of not having the readership size that Smogon does. The next analyses will have a larger turn out and suspect testing.

    Why did we do this? A concern among some cross-site members was that we were trying to reinvent the Smogon metagame. This is completely false. Initially, we wanted to see what could be fixed about BL Tier pokemon that made them so underused. Perhaps they just didn't have the right move sets? Maybe predictability is high? Perhaps researching move sets mid-battle is a common strategy? We ultimately decided to offer an outside perspective and explanation of the Smogon tiers to our readership. We wanted to analyze the idea of tiers and develop constructive criticism for Smogon. We hope that we do not offend. In short, we understand that Stunfisk criticisms should remain on Stunfisk.

    But what do you think, Smogon? Please offer criticism of our attempt at competitive analysis. We accept all constructive criticism with open arms.

    Gothitelle: Two Traps in One Body
    Show Hide
    Written by tehfatpanda

    Ever since the event that released DW Gothitelle to the public I have had a great desire to make him work in an OU environment. Shadow Tag is one of the games most scary abilities on the right pokemon, the ability to trap and destroy any threat is a great asset to any team. The reason I have had such a desire to run a Shadow Tag Gothitelle is due to the fact that he is has amazing versatility in what you are looking to destroy. Here is a listing of potential attacks that Gothitelle can use to seek and destroy:

    For a switch-and-kill Gothitelle:

    • Psychic / Psyshock
    • Energy Ball / Grass Knot
    • Shadow Ball
    • Thunderbolt
    • Hidden Power Ice / Fire
    • Dark Pulse/Foul Play
    • Uproar (lol)

    For a Switch-and-Setup Gothitelle:

    • Everything from above for the KO'ing attack
    • Calm Mind
    • Subsititute
    • Charm
    • Taunt
    • Trick
    Gothitelle can reasonably use either of these sets due to the fact that it has decent stats both defensively (75hp / 95def / 110Sdef) and offensively (95Satk / 70spe). Each set is equally viable depending on what kind of team you are running and whether you need Gothitelle to come in and destroy 1 specific threat or come in, set up, and then sweep as much as possible. For my analysis of Gothitelle's viablity in OU I decided to run him as the more offesive version. For references, here is the set that I decided to run:

    Gothitelle@Choice Scarf
    Ability: Shadow Tag
    Nature: Modest
    EV's: 216hp / 252Satk / 40spe
    • Psyshock
    • HP Ice
    • Thunderbolt
    • Trick

    Before I explain this particular set, let me show the team I was running for this test. Gothitelle Test Team (link removed).

    This is a modified version of u/cabforpitt 's team that won the Fall 2012 Reader Article Contest (Link removed).

    When trying to decide how to build my Gothitelle, I had to figure out what threatens my team most. The #1 threat that requires elimination is Politoed. If I can get a quick trap and kill on a Politoed I can disrupt the enemy teams whole plan. In order to destroy a Politoed I decided to put Thunderbolt on my Gothitelle. With Modest nature and 252Satk Gothitelle can get a Guarenteed 2HKO on Politoed. However, Gothitelle is best as a revenge killer as Politoed can still deal decent damage to Gothitelle. The only true set to be scared of is a Specs Hydro Pump. Nothing else can OHKO Gothitelle which means Gothitelle can successfully kill Politoed as long as it revenging.

    I run the Modest / 40spe / Choice Scarf version of Gothitelle for one reason, the complete utter destruction of base 70spe Pokemon. This includes Breloom and Politoed, both of which can wreck teams that don't pay attention to them. The rest of his set is fairly self-explanatory. I use Trick to cripple walls by forcing them into one attack. Psychic is there as a strong STAB (Psyshock is just as usable if looking to hit special walls). The choice of Hidden Power was the hardest part, and I'm still not sure if I chose correctly. I decided on HP Ice to screw with dragons, which are something my team would generally have trouble taking out.

    As far as the results go for my OU Test: 7-3

    The results are actually better than I expected due to my inexperience with Sun teams overall, but I am quite satisfied with that record. As far as matches go, here are three that showcase what Gothitelle can do:

    Gothitelle learns that Baton Pass > Shadow Tag (Link removed).

    This was a match I won, but Gothitelle ended up only being used as fodder due to the fact that Jolteon out speeds him. Scizor carried this match, doesn't really show Gothitelle's ability.

    Gothitelle forces a Rage-Quit (Link removed)

    A fairly short match, but Gothitelle proves invaluable by KO'ing a Dragonite that he outspeeds thanks to his scarf. I wish I had been able to continue this match further as Gothitelle could have taken his whole team out, but it was not meant to be. :(

    Gothitelle's value levels up!(Link removed)

    This was a match vs a Sun-based Shuffle team where Gothitelle pulls my bacon out of the fryer by KO'ing a Venusaur before it got too scary. Its these kind of matches where Gothitelle can be used to KO that one threat that worries you where his usefulness shines. I wish I had a replay of Gothitelle taking out a Politoed but everytime I managed to do so it was an instant rage-quit which provided for some very boring replays.

    After using Gothitelle in several battles, I believe that with his versatility he can be an effective asset on just about every team, even in the OU Tier. He may not be super bulky or hit the hardest, but his true power comes in being able to be designed in any way you want. This makes him more of a jack-of-all-trades which is why I understand the ban he received from the UU tier. He becomes an over-centralizing pokemon if people realize why he is good as he can be thrown on almost any team to shore up the weaknesses they have by taking out their worst nightmares.

    BL Tier Analysis: Staraptor
    Show Hide
    Written by PTJon7

    Intimidate & Reckless
    Base Stats:
    ********85 HP
    ************120 Atk
    *******70 Def
    *****50 SAtk
    *****50 SDef
    **********100 Spd

    Movepool (editted to only include viable moves):

    Offensive Moves:
    • Giga Impact
    • Brave Bird
    • Double-Edge
    • Close Combat
    • Take Down
    • U-Turn
    • Retaliate
    • Pursuit
    • Quick Attack
    • Return
    • Final Gambit

    Support Moves:
    • Work Up
    • Whirlwind
    • Roost
    • Agility
    • Foresight

    I was very excited to try out Staraptor. On paper Staraptor sounds great; base 120 atk is definitely powerful and base 100 speed gives it a nice edge over most of the tier. Base 100 speed is also great for choice scarf users, as it helps it outspeed common slower scarf users. Staraptor also boasts a great move pool that gives it quite a few options that grant it good coverage.
    I have not played a single game of OU pokemon for months until now, so I started off my test by getting back into the feel of the metagame. My first set was an attempt to take advantage of Staraptor's only real boosting move: Agility. I quickly scrapped this however, finding that Staraptor simply didn't have the ability to set up. Staraptor caused very few switches, using Agility just wasn't worth it.

    Then I tried a Choice Scarf set, thinking that Staraptor would work better as a revenge killer and momentum gainer. This set definitely worked better, but I still found Staraptor was lacking in power. I was winning most of my games but it really wasn't because of Staraptor at all. I finally decided to change Staraptor's item to a Choice Band, thinking it would now work well as a wall breaker. It certainly was powerful, with Brave Bird 2HKO'ing pretty much anything that didn't resist it. But still I was underwhelmed by Staraptor, with the abundance of priority attacks and fast pokemon in the tier I was unable to sweep with Staraptor at all.

    I concluded with this: Staraptor does not belong in OU. It is outclassed as a sweeper by countless other pokemon. It does have access to the most powerful Brave Bird in the tier, but when it gets down to it it just doesn't do well in OU. I would actually be interested in a suspect test for Staraptor to go back to UU. I know it was at once point one of the hugest threats in UU, but a lot has changed since that time. After 15 battles (going 10-5) my final verdict is this:

    Staraptor should be suspect tested in UU.

    I apologize for not having any videos to show, but really all they would demonstrate it Staraptor killing maybe one or two pokemon, or just dieing without getting any kills at all.

    BL Tier Analysis: Kyurem
    Show Hide
    Written by comedicgold777

    My experience with this challenge under the alt "StunfiskSquad" have certainly been interesting. The first thing I had to do was decide which BL Pokémon I wanted to test. I remember using Kyurem back in the early days of BW1 when he was still allowed in UU. At that time, the main set that people used was the Choice Scarf set. It definitely has its merits, because Kyurem's speed is lacking to say the least. When BW2 came out, Kyurem was given a second wind with the move tutors for Roost and Earth Power, which greatly enhanced his offensive capabilities. With them, Kyurem could pull off an effective Sub-Roost set, complemented perfectly by his ability, Pressure. He has enough HP with little investment to have 101 HP substitues (enough to make sure you will live a Seismic Toss), he has respectable base 90 defenses, and fantastic base 130 attacking stats. Ice and Dragon are also really good offensive types, so he can put them to use too. But Kyurem is BL, so he must have some downsides. The most noticeable one is his Ice typing. Ice is a horrible defensive type. Weak to common Fighting and rock type attacks is never a good thing on a Pokémon trying to stall. That also means that he is weak to Stealth Rock and vulnerable to spikes, meaning that a Rapid Spinner is recommended to make sure he can survive as long as possible. Not only that, but he also appreciates being in Hail, because it helps ease his stalling, slowly dropping the opponents' HP or canceling leftovers recovery.

    But despite all of that, I chose him, and I was blown away. I used his Sub-Roost set on a hail team I threw together this morning, and I loved every minute of it. Here's the set:

    Kyurem @ Leftovers
    Ability: Pressure
    EVs: 56 HP/220 SpA/236 Spe
    Nature: Modest
    • Ice Beam
    • Earth Power
    • Substitute
    • Roost

    I chose Ice beam over Blizzard because I needed as much PP as possible for stalling out Pokémon. Looking back, Blizzard may have been a better choice because there were a few kills I missed out on. The given EVs are pretty basic. The HP puts him at 405, which gives him 101 HP subs and is also not divisible by 4 (remember Stealth Rock numbers!). The speed puts him at 285, meaning he can outspeed max speed, +speed nature Venusaur, Mamoswine, and Dragonite. I had a record of 7 wins to 3 losses, and many of those wins were because of Kyurem taking down specific threats. This battle[1] illustrates how Kyurem can completely turn around a bad situation. Kyurem is one of the scariest Pokemon behind a sub in the entire game. Few Pokemon are ok with taking either Earth Power or Ice Beam from Kyurem, and those who are, are usually slow enough that they have to take two. Kyurem was great at eliminating threats midgame so other things like Heatran or Terrakion could sweep. Looking back, I would definitely pair him with a set up sweeper like Salamence, since he can eliminate or weaken much of the opponent's team before Salamence even has to enter the battle field.

    In fact, most, if not all, of the problems I faced during this challenge were due to my own poor team building skills. The hail team I used certainly worked, but it could have been a lot better, and it has serious weaknesses to things like Life Orb Latios and Choice Scarf Terrakion. Don't even get me started on Keldeo. And as is true with many hail teams, it has major problems with sun teams, especially Bulkyrona, which after a few boosts can even muscle through Heatran.

    But Kyurem himself is a powerful threat that catches many teams in OU off-guard. It escapes me why so few people use him. I would definitely place Kyurem in the OU tier. He is one of the only Pokémon still able to keep stall alive in this crazy offensive metagame. As for alternate sets, a more offensive one can easily be used:

    Kyurem @ Life Orb
    Ability: Pressure
    EVs: 4 Def/252 SpA/252 Spe
    Nature: Modest/Timid
    • Ice Beam/Blizzard
    • Earth Power/Hidden Power Fire
    • Dragon Pulse
    • Roost

    Roost allows you to heal all of the damage from Life Orb and hazards, while still giving you the ability to hit hard off his base 130 SpA. This set would definitely appreciate all Mach Punchers eliminated, as well as paralysis support, to make his low speed less noticeable. Good partners include Celebi, who can take the Fighting type hits aimed at Kyurem, as well as Jirachi, who can take the Dragon ones. Breloom is a good offensive partner, able to hit things like Terrakion and Tyranitar, as well as winning in a 1v1 situation with Scizor, some common threats to Kyurem, depending on the moves you're running. This was a lot of fun and I can't wait to try out another one (I'm thinking Staraptor if no one else wants to take it :3 never mind, someone else took it). Hope this was of some use to you all, and have fun with Kyurem! Here's [2] proof of my user name and rank (I actually lost a battle while typing this -_-) EDIT: Something you all should remember. Even Scarf Abomasnow doesn't outspeed Tornadus-T, something I was not aware of myself T-T[3]

    BL Tier Analysis: Chansey
    Show Hide
    Written by johndogbones

    Type: Normal
    HP: 250
    Atk: 5
    Def: 5
    SpA: 35
    SpD: 105
    SpE: 50

    Abilities: Natural Cure, Serene Grace, Healer

    Notable Moves: Aromatherapy, Counter, Heal Bell, Healing Wish, Light Screen, Protect, Seismic Toss, Softboiled, Stealth Rock, Thunder Wave, Toxic, Wish
    Team: (link removed)

    Final Score: 8-2

    I like stall teams, but I haven't played one since pretty much the release of BW. I spent my first 4~5 games figuring out sets, then threw together the team above. At first, chansey was running counter so she could threaten physical attacks, but I scrapped that in favor of wish/protect for maximum toxic stall (as a side note, counter doesn't work against keldeo's secret sword :(). The idea for the team was to toxic stall in range of a keldeo sweep, with rocky helmet ferrothorn as the designated counter to rapid spins. The team has a very noticable weakness to Reuniclus and Breloom; in fact, both of my losses were to breloom, but even the games without breloom were pretty difficult.

    Chansey was moderately useful, but she felt a bit lacking against most teams. She was very bulky and could stall out almost anything if it was toxic'd, but it was difficult, if not impossible to get a wish pass off against the majority of teams I faced, and most of the time I was sending her in just so I could double switch to something else. I found that deoxys-d was almost always the better switchin if I wanted to absorb damage, since at least he could lay down layers of spikes.

    (Link removed) - One of my first games. Chansey manages to get off a key wish pass. I was thrown off guard by the nasty plot celebi, but eventually everything is in keldeo sweep range.

    (Link removed) - I manage to block spins with ferrothorn until forretress is in suicide spin range, then stall it out with toxic spikes and chansey. Kyurem-B was a major issue, but perish song and toxic spikes kept him from completely destroying me. Eventually all of my opponent's pokemon are toxic'd and he forfeits after he realizes he can't hurt chansey at all.

    (Link removed) - I barely eke out a win against breloom and gliscor. Luckily my opponent is running jolly breloom, so he doesn't OHKO keldeo with a +2 mach punch. I don't have either of my losses, but both of them involve breloom switching in, sporing, then sweeping with +2. Chansey did about as well as I expected her to. She was surprisingly bulky on the physical side, but it didn't really matter because all she could do was sit there and maybe throw a couple seismic tosses. I think the real issue is that stall is too weak in gen5's fast paced metagame, though I feel like chansey's more or less where she belongs. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if blissey moves down to join her in BL since as far as I can tell they're both hopelessly outclassed by deoxys-d. Anyways, after playing through all ten battles, my final conclusion is that rain is broken and keldeo and deoxys-d should probably be retested for ubers

    BL Tier Analysis: Wobbuffet
    Show Hide
    Written by WarningContainsName

    For my analysis I chose perhaps the strangest Pokemon around, Wobbuffet. Before I got into competitive battling I never gave the blue blob much thought, and with the way some of my battles went there are many out there who still discount Wobba. Our blue friend has certainly fallen from grace with the advent of Gen. V, but I haven't seen any reason for it in my admittedly limited testing. I went 6/10 over the test period, and certainly Wobbuffet was instrumental in most of those wins. I used the standard "Oh No Its Wobbuffet!" set on Smogon, and the following teammates:

    Dragon-Dance Salamence
    Choice Band Scizor
    Life Orb Starmie
    Defensive Spinning Donphan
    Choice Scarf Magnezone

    I found that Wobbuffet was great at opening up opportunities for setup sweepers like Salamence, and this battle in particular really illustrates that fact[1] . I'll also admit that I'm not a fantastic battler, and had I played a few situations a bit better could have bagged one or two more victories. However, I believe our amorphous friend has the ability to go toe to toe with the best of OU, and strongly encourage his use (with the caveat that he isn't for novice battlers, a bit of prediction is required to use him effectively). The biggest downside, I think, is Wobba's lack of movepool. It literally doesn't exist, which means he can be setup bait for those prepared for him, and there is almost no possibility of a novel set for surprise factor. Additionally, Mixed Attackers would wreak havoc on Wobba (though I didn't encounter any). Overall though, Wobba has the ability to thrive even in Gen. V's psycho OU tier, and I might even go so far as to put him back on his throne in Ubers.

    This test was fun, I'd like to see more like it. I suppose this is relatively spartan analysis, but there really isn't that much to say other than try Wobba out, you'll be amazed. Thanks for reading!
  2. GatoDelFuego

    GatoDelFuego When the grim reaper says you get to be in the skeleton army
    is a member of the Site Staffis a Smogon Social Media Contributoris a Forum Moderatoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Smogon Media Contributor

    May 29, 2011
    At first I thought this was some kind of writing for competitive sets for BL pokemon; which didn't make much sense, as they most all have OU sets already.

    However, looking at this as a personal research project is interesting. An in-depth, impersonal/measured analysis of BL pokemon's effect in the OU metagame is something that's never really been tried before. Unfortunately, BL is a tricky limbo tier. It's filled with pokemon that really should be UU by nature, as they are simple not good enough to be used in OU. However, it also exists as a banlist from UU, meaning that most residences don't see use ever. On Starraptor in particular, seeing how it performs poorly against a majority of OU teams isn't reason to have it suspected in a tier that has a completely different metagame than the one above it. Its underperformance in OU is the reason it's UU in the first place.

    All in all, this was an interesting read, and this could provide useful insight into people seeking to use these pokemon on an OU team. However, most have OU analyses at the moment, so I'm not sure where this knowledge could be taken. Perhaps this could be used as the basis for a smog article detailing each of the members of BL and their effects on both metagames? At any rate, I'd suggest putting in links to battles, as it gives great evidence to how well these pokemon perform.

    This is still certainly a better made first post than many on this site; welcome to smogon I suppose?

    also lol at "two traps in one body"
  3. NixHex

    NixHex ONE YEAR Seizure Free!! God bless keppra.
    is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Researcher Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus

    Oct 6, 2009
    The BL metagame doesn't allow OU Pokemon therefore it does not belong in the OU discussion forum. You can go ahead and post this in the Other Metagames forum and see if it picks up steam, but I'm not guaranteeing anything. Welcome to Smogon.
    Sorry, complete misunderstanding. I'll read over this later because it seems pretty interesting.
  4. Tressed

    Tressed halloween is a month
    is a Pre-Contributor

    Jan 26, 2012
    The way the tiers work are like this. OU is the default tier. If a Pokemon does not reach a certain usage each month, it is dropped down to the next tier, UU. It continues in this way for each tier, so the the most used pokemon go to Overused, less used ones go to Underused, then Rarelyused, and finally Neverused.
    Between each one is a banlist. This is for Pokemon who are too powerful. So, Ubers is the OU banlist, BL is the UU banlist, BL2 is the RU banlist, etc. All of the pokemon that are in those tiers have been deemed too powerful for the tier under it, but don't have the usage to be bumped up to the tier above it.
    All of the Pokemon is BL are viable in OU, but they don't see usage for specific reasons. Gothitelle and Wobbufett are trappers, and as a result, they only see use when they are specifically needed. Kyurem can wreck face, but being weak to entry hazards and common priority means you have to prepare a lot more for the Pokemon that use them, which can be a pain. Finally, Staraptor and Chansey simply aren't that great right now, which is why they don't see usage, but they're just too powerful for UU, simple as that.

    Anyhow, we actually have a couple of threads where this discussion should be taking place. The OU Viability ranking thread is a good one, as are the threads for the specific Pokemon. Finally, you might want to send a PM over to Trinitrotoluene or Novaray to see if you can't get some of these Pokes into the Research Week Project, although it may be awhile before they get in, seeing as it just started up tonight.
  5. DudeWynaut


    Jul 23, 2012
    Thank you, GatoDelFuego! I cannot take credit for the efforts of the writers, but do expect more like this in the future. I'm planning a BL2 analysis next. Also, I'm playing it safe about the links. I was momentarily permabanned for linking to reddit. Until I'm corrected by a Mod, I cannot link to anything. Alternatively, you could search for the write-ups on Stunfisk if you'd like to view the videos. yeah Panda is good about subliminal messages lol

    No problem NixHex! Thank you for welcoming us and please do read them.

    Thank you for the insight, BlackLight! And I'll send them a PM in the very near future.
  6. IstheCakeReallyaLie


    Apr 14, 2012
    I recommend removing Uproar altogether. It's completely useless.

Users Viewing Thread (Users: 0, Guests: 0)