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Black and Blue: A Bruising RMT (5th Gen OU)

Discussion in 'BW OU Teams' started by Rackham, Jul 14, 2011.

  1. Rackham

    Rackham

    Joined:
    Oct 17, 2010
    Messages:
    252
    Black and Blue


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    [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]

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    Introduction


    Since Garchomp's banning, the OU metagame has felt like a much more balanced place. The thing was, once Chomp got that sub up, it was often a case of, the outcome that game coming down to chance. As a result, I'd found the game to be beginning to become increasingly boring and consequently unappealing, since you could go into a match knowing that there's a 40% chance that what you do won't matter. However, I've been enjoying this round alot more, and that is in part, because of this team.

    The flipside of Garchomp's ban is that the majority of my teams (that is to say all the good ones-I (ab)used him for everything) had lost a key player. Whether he was banded, scarfed, SD, hell, I even had some success with chain-chomp, I had trouble replacing him without having to restructure the whole team. So, later on, whilst looking through the usage stats, I realised something. Out of the top 15 pokemon, 11 could be reliably beaten by a +2 Lucario with rocks on the field, whilst Lucario himself was sitting, forgotten, at #40. So, that's where this team was born. Although this team is, I suppose, balanced, I prefer to play it more aggressively; relying on resistances and putting pressure on the opponent in order to open up an opportunity to sweep, before the opponent gets a chance to set up, or do too much damage. All of the supporting pokemon on my team all have to function offensively too, else I can lose precious momentum and damage on the opponent's team. Against different teams, different pokemon act as my core, as their usefulness is often highly situational, though that is not to say that they are ever useless.

    I've had some decent success with this team. I peaked around the high 1300s which remains my highest in the last 2 rounds of suspect testing although this could just be because I am still improving. Nonetheless, I've really been enjoying using this team.

    Team Building

    It wasn't as simple as this, but this should give a decent idea of my thought process:

    Okay, so, as I've said, I started with SD Lucario:
    [​IMG]

    Lucario's biggest defensive threat in OU at the moment is Jellicent, so in order to eliminate it I needed something that could take a Will-O-Wisps and Scalds. Now, two pokemon are great at this: Celebi and Shaymin. Both have Natural cure and that nice water resist. However, what sealed the deal for me was Nasty Plot, which allows Celebi to have a stronger offensive presence throughout the match and wear down the opponents team more in anticipation of a Lucario sweep.
    [​IMG] [​IMG]

    Now, from here I looked at two things. First of all, Celebi tends to draw out Scizor, Ferrothorn and Tyranitar (which is great for Lucario). Secondly, both Celebi and Lucario are weak to Fire type attacks. Now, Heatran can take on these three pretty effectively, considering standard sets, at the moment and is, in my opinion one of the best Stealth Rockers and offensive pivots in the metagame at the moment.
    [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]

    Here, I was beginning to see a weakness to strong physical attackers, particularly Ground and Fighting Types like Choice Scarf Landorus and Excadrill. Jellicent, who is not only the best OU spinblocker, is a great pokemon to halt physical threats abusing its great typing as well as its ability to spread burn and cripple physical attackers and even stallbreak. Jellicent also synergises well with Celebi and Heatran to form a strong Multi-weather core, where at least 2 members of the core function well under each weather (Although there is a slight weakness to sun there). However, Jellicent is not bulky enough to stop the strongest physical attackers, especially those abusing weather since I don't have my own counter-weather. Gliscor is the premier physical wall this gen and hard counters most of the stuff that Jellicent cannot deal with. Furthermore, he makes a fantastic stall-breaking partner for Jellicent.
    [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]

    Finally, seeing that my team is particularly slow, and has little answer to stop some fast, boosting attackers, like NP Thundurus of DD Gyarados with Ice fang, I added in Deoxys. Deoxys-S functions fantastically as a 6th member of almost any team, and here it is no different. Deoxys functions as a secondary late-game cleaner, a check to many boosting sweepers, and he can also wallbreak in a pinch, though generally that is not needed.
    [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]

    And there you have it! That's my team. Now onto, a closer look.



    The Team




    [​IMG]



    Heatran @Leftovers Bernie
    252 HP / 4 SpAtk / 252 SpD
    Calm // Flash Fire
    ~Lava Plume
    ~Protect
    ~Roar
    ~Steath Rocks

    I put Heatran first because he's the guy I normally lead with. Stealth Rocks are so important to this team that, I need to get them down as early as possible, similarly, scouting is also extremely important to this team's success, which he can do with Protect. Heatran is also my only steel type, so it is essential not to play too callously with him. As I normally sit Heatran in front, I thought I'd explain how he fares against the most common "leads":

    -Tyranitar: No Tyranitar lead, except for CB Tar is giving me issues, so I just set up Rocks. Standard TTar can't touch me, and if he stays in too long he'll most likely get burned by Lava Plume. Sp. Def Tar with superpower Pursuit etc. does around 50% with Superpower as I get my rocks up. The important thing about this is that pretty much any Tyranitar that wants to Superpower with also have Pursuit which tells me two things: 1- Cannot sweep with Celebi. 2- Can most likely lure out Tyranitar (or Scizor) with Celebi (although I have to be careful of them Volt Switching out to a Pursuit user).

    -Politoed: Protect first turn. If Scald, I know its a defensive set and so wont hinder Lucario if he wants to sweep. If Hydro Pump, I know its either Specs or Scarf (probably Scarf), and so I can deal with it fairly easily. Unfortunatley, this means I will have to wait to get my Rocks up. (Note that rain teams normally also feature Ferrothorn who is easy to lure out with Celebi, if I switch it into Politoed, allowing Heatran a free switch in.)

    -Ninetales: Can't do jack. HP Fighting (which they always seem to try turn 1) does around 25% if I remember rightly. Sun teams tend to have a spinner, though the only one which gives me issues is Starmie who can take on both Heatran and Jellicent (though sun-nerfed surfs don't do too much to Heatran).

    -Hazard setters/Dual Screeners: If they have the suspected taunt, either Lava Plume away or switch to something that can better handle them. Although I can normally stall out Dual Screens without too much hassle, by abusing protect and switching if I really need to, hazards really hurt my team. Toxic spikes and Spikes in particular, so if it is something like a Deoxys, you'd do well to lead with Jellicent to Taunt turn 1, although this too has its risks. Basically, I have difficulty handling Deoxys leads, most others are okay.


    Stealth Rocks are, as said earlier, very important for scouting, as in order to sweep with Lucario, I need to know what sets particular pokemon are running and look out for any surprise Scarfers. The two most notable are Rotom-W and Tyranitar. Scarftar stops Lucario cold, so I need to look out for lefties, if there are, that's one less thing to worry about. Rotom is annoying, because if its running max speed Timid, then it outspeeds Lucario, but doesn't have enough bulk to survive a +2 ES. If its running standard Rotom, Lucario can outspeed, but need to use CC. This is why I need SR, to scout for Leftovers. I'll explain how I discern its choice item later.

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    [​IMG]



    Celebi @Leftovers
    236 HP / 252 SpAtk / 20 Spe
    Timid // Natural Cure
    ~Nasty Plot
    ~Recover
    ~Giga Drain
    ~Hidden Power Fire

    Celebi is the unsung hero of this team, supporting Lucario, removing his biggest nemesis: Jellicent, as well as dealing with anything Rotom-W can throw at this team (although, being Volt-switched into a Pursuit-trap is never nice). Against Rain teams, Celebi and Jellicent become my Core, allowing me to check the majority of threats that is may try to throw at me. Now, let me explain the choice of set. First of all, I have tried various other sets and EV spreads that cater to a more supportive role; however that really doesn't aid the team as well as the Nasty Plot set does. The key here is in the way you play Celebi, because alot of its checks can be removed with a clean prediction at +2. In the early game, Celebi's role is as more of a scouter, and, if the opportunity should arise, Celebi can sweep slower teams when weakened in the late game (although more often than not she doesn't). Celebi normally nets a KO or two every match. Celebi and Lucario are the two key pokemon in this team, and so it is essential that you keep them alive for as long as possible, or at the very least, as long as an opening for the other to sweep is assured. This is where being Pursuit-weak can actually be manipulated to your advantage, because a Tyranitar/Scizor Choice locked into Pursuit is easy set-up fodder for Lucario. Now, upon recommendation from Moo, and a few others, I've switched to a bulkier set. With this, it basically performs the same role, though has increased survivability.

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    [​IMG]

    Jellicent @Leftovers U Jelly?
    252 HP / 204 Def / 52 Spe
    Bold // Water Absorb
    ~Shadow Ball
    ~Taunt
    ~Recover
    ~Will-O-Wisp

    Okay, so the EVs are standard, just with a little extra speed to outpace other Jellicents and Taunt them before they can do anything. This is because then if Celebi is gone, he can check opposing Jellicent reasonably well so long as he avoids status as well as the fact that when up against defensive teams, you aren't potentially stopped by an opposing Jellicent. Shadow Ball over Scald is because despite neither of them being used very often, I find Shadow Ball to have more utility against the Reunicluses (?) that often come in, it deals about 45% I think, to 252/0 Reuniclus. Anyway, Jellicent is probably one of my favourite Pokemon at the moment, because by spamming Taunt and Will-O-Wisp, especially against defensive teams, is really useful. Burn is, in my opinion, the best status: Cripples so many threats and deals reliable damage. Jellicent frequently cripples Ferrothorn, who think they can set up, and, like I say, spreading Burn around the opponents team is important (though not to the extent of things like stealth rock) in dealing with some of my team's most difficult threats and also providing both residual damage and more set-up opportunities for Lucario. Against Sun teams, Heatran and Jellicent become my Core. Also, The way I discern Rotom's Choice Item is when it first comes in against Jellicent, I recover as the opponent Volt-Switches. Non-specs deals around 50%, Specs deals around 80%.


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    [​IMG]

    Gliscor @Toxic Orb
    248 HP / 168 Def / 92 Spe
    Impish // Poison Heal
    ~Swords Dance
    ~Taunt
    ~Ice Fang
    ~Earthquake

    Standard Gliscor. I have loved this Pokemon ever since 4th Gen, and this set ever since I read Iconic's RMT in early BW. I don't think I've made a team without it, or some variation of it, since then. I don't think this set needs too much explaining. Counters Excadrill and fighting types. I believe that 248 HP gives a Poison Heal number and the extra speed is, again to beat other Gliscors 1 on 1. Ummm... I think most people are pretty familiar with this, so I'll move on.

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    [​IMG]

    Lucario @Life Orb
    4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
    Adamant // Inner Focus
    ~Swords Dance
    ~Close Combat
    ~Ice Punch
    ~Extremespeed

    Basically, once at +2, it is very difficult to stop this guy. CC and Ice Punch give nearly unresisted coverage in OU, and ES kills the majority of faster stuff that tries to kill him. I'm running out of stuff to say, except for the fact that the sheer power packed by this guy is insane. At +2 he OHKOs Defensive Skarmory after stealth rock damage. Inner Focus is because if the opponent has a Mienshao, he can just spam Fake Out whilst foddering stuff for the CC Defense drops and LO recoil, which is really annoying.

    The way I use Lucario is I like to bring him in once or twice early on to scout whether the opponent will switch out, and if so, what to. This has twofold importance, 1. you'll be weakening their counter, since no-one can take repeated CCs to the face (aside from Ghosts), 2. Often, I have found that Ferrothorns and TTars like to stay in occasionally to T-wave or smack you with a Fire Blast in case you try to set up.

    Lucario's Defensive Threats (at +2) (assumed 252/252+ and SR):
    Show Hide


    Alomomola - +2 CC = 77.53~91.2% (28.2% chance to OHKO after rocks)
    Blissey - OHKO
    Bronzong - OHKO
    Celebi - 2HKOs with CC- Offensive variants 2HKOed by CC+ES so cannot switch in, can only revenge kill.
    Chansey - OHKO
    Deoxys-D - Haven't seen any, but can put a stop to the sweep.
    Cofagrigus -Really rare, but will stop a sweep.
    Crustle - OHKO
    Dusclops - Uncommon but will also stop a sweep and threaten with Will-O-Wisp
    Ferrothorn - OHKO
    Forretress -OHKO
    Garbodor - Never seen one, but is 2HKOed by CC
    Gigalith - OHKO
    Gliscor - Go straight for the Ice Punch if it is in Sand or no weather, else I have to be cautious of 216 Spe Jolly ones that can pop up on sun and rain teams from time to time.
    Hippowdon - +2 CC= 75.95~89.29 Cannot switch in
    Jellicent - As stated earlier, the bane of Lucario's sweep.
    Latias - 2HKOed by CC (and thats 252/252+). ES does 66% Min to 252/0 Latias
    Mandibuzz - OHKO
    Murkrow - OHKO
    Ninetales - OHKOed by CC, 2HKOed by ES
    Politoed - OHKOed by CC, 2HKOed by ES
    Porygon2 -OHKO
    Rotom-H -OHKO
    Rotom-W - OHKO
    Scolipede -OHKO
    Skarmory -OHKO
    Snorlax -OHKO
    Suicune -46.15% chance of OHKO
    Swampert -OHKO
    Tentacruel -2HKO
    Vaporeon -OHKO
    Whimsicott -OHKOed by CC, 2HKOed by ES. Priority stun spore is an issue
    Xatu - OHKO
    Zapdos - OHKO


    There, so, as you can see, next to nothing can switch in safely, and threaten to end a sweep (But you have the rest of the team to deal with those)

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    [​IMG]

    Deoxys-S @Life Orb
    4 Atk / 252 SpAtk / 252 Spe
    Rash // Pressure
    ~Psyshock
    ~Thunderbolt
    ~Ice Beam
    ~Superpower

    Deoxys-S is, in my opinion, the very best late game cleaner aside from Lucario, however here that is not how he functions. See, with the 6th member of a team, it tends to be the thing that needs to check a whole bunch of stuff that the rest of the team has trouble with. Now, generally, I'd use a scarfer to patch up the weaknesses as they tend to be good as multi-purpose checks to offensive teams, however, Deoxys-S is just as good: If I find myself on the back-foot, I can rely on him to check pokemon that would be seriously dangerous otherwise. Things like NP Thundurus, DD Gyara with Ice Fang.

    (Currently testing Scarf Tyranitar in this slot)

    **************

    This team was essentially made to showcase the threat of SD Lucario, who this month has slipped dangerously close to UU, and I think it has done that well. This team has served me well the last month and a half and has been great fun to use, for me at least.



    Team Builder Importable (open)

    Heatran (F) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Flash Fire
    EVs: 252 HP / 4 SAtk / 252 SDef
    Calm Nature (+SDef, -Atk)
    - Lava Plume
    - Protect
    - Roar
    - Stealth Rock

    Celebi @ Leftovers
    Trait: Natural Cure
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
    Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
    - Nasty Plot
    - Giga Drain
    - Earth Power
    - Hidden Power [Fire]

    Jellicent (M) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Water Absorb
    EVs: 252 HP / 204 Def / 52 Spd
    Bold Nature (+Def, -Atk)
    - Shadow Ball
    - Taunt
    - Recover
    - Will-O-Wisp

    Gliscor (F) @ Toxic Orb
    Trait: Poison Heal
    EVs: 248 HP / 168 Def / 92 Spd
    Impish Nature (+Def, -SAtk)
    - Swords Dance
    - Taunt
    - Ice Fang
    - Earthquake

    Lucario (F) @ Life Orb
    Trait: Inner Focus
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spd
    Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
    - Swords Dance
    - Close Combat
    - Ice Punch
    - ExtremeSpeed

    Deoxys-S @ Life Orb
    Trait: Pressure
    EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
    Rash Nature (+SAtk, -SDef)
    - Psyshock
    - Ice Beam
    - Thunderbolt
    - Superpower
  2. Rackham

    Rackham

    Joined:
    Oct 17, 2010
    Messages:
    252
    ~Threat List~


    Specific Pokemon

    [​IMG]
    Rotom-W: This thing is annoying, but only with the right support. I can handle the choice ones easily, and the standard ones don't pack enough power to do too much; however, with SR and a layer of spikes, it can be an unholy pain in the ass due to all the switching it causes, especially, as I can only check it with Celebi, who gets forced out by U-turn. So, most of the time, it's not too bad but if Celebi's gone or with the Scizor/Rotom Dual Turning combo, it can be a real hassle

    [​IMG]
    Mamoswine: I'm only really threatened by the LO variants, as they can hit 4/6 of my team for SE with their dual STABs. A really underrated threat. I generally have to sack something, if Jellicent is weakened into 2HKO range, and then force it out with Lucario.

    [​IMG]
    Scrafty: DD sets are pretty much uncounterable with this team (or, in fact by any team). It can only really come in on Heatran (or Jellicent if running Lum) safely though, so when it does, I'll smack it with a Lava Plume as it DDs up, before revenging with Deoxys. But, yeah, the strategy here is to just hit it hard as much as you can to limit its set up time and limit the damage it does. A serious threat

    [​IMG]
    Thundurus: If it gets a NP boost up, and Celebi is at <70%, I have to sack something and revenge with Deoxys. If running TTar over Deoxys, its not so bad and can come in on anything but a Focus Blast and revenge it.

    General Threats

    [​IMG]
    Sun Teams: My only solid defence against these is Heatran, and although he can hold up fairly well, Sun teams tend to run 1 or 2 sleep inducers. Sweeping with Lucario is also alot harder, because the set-up opportunities are less common as it is harder to force switches, and most Chlorophyllers tend to have decent bulk. Running TTar will help with this. SR is nice and limits them, but still a serious threat.

    [​IMG]
    Baton Pass (With Espeon): If they're running Espeon, then obvious phazing is obvious and I can't really stop them accumulating boosts unless I crit or kill early on. Generally, I can break the chain fairly early on, but if they get +2/+2 defenses I an screwed.

    [​IMG] [​IMG]
    Hazard-Stacking Teams: Becuase I have no spinner and 2 of my most vital team members are susceptible to Toxic Spikes, if they get 2 layers of Toxic Spikes and a layer or two of spikes, the game is a lot harder. Most of the time I can still get Lucario in and pull a win out of my ass, but it makes winning a lot more difficult. Most spike-setters cannot really switch in at all, but Tentacruel gets quite a few opportunities to get in.I can limit them with Taunt but basically, if I see this beginning to happen, it put a timer on the game, and I need to finish it sooner rather than later (as opposed to most matches where I can take my time in weakening the opponent's team).
  3. Moo

    Moo Professor
    is an Artist Alumnusis a Researcher Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2010
    Messages:
    1,446
    Hey, nice team you have there. It's looking pretty solid, and I'm not seeing any major weaknesses, but I can see the team having problems with certain special attackers. Special attackers that can beat your specially defense Pokemon (Heatran and Jellicent) can be a problem. Examples of these are Thundurus and Rotom-W. I suggest changing your Celebi set to fix this weakness:

    Celebi @ Leftovers Trait: Natural Cure
    EVs: 240 HP / 252 SAtk / 16 Spd
    Modest Nature (+SAtk, -Atk)
    - Nasty Plot
    - Recover
    - Giga Drain
    - Psychic

    This bulky Nasty Plot set will allow you to switch in safely on the likes of Thundurus and Rotom-W. You might be a bit slower, but the extra bulk is appreciated, and you still have great power. Thanks to Recover and Giga Drain, Celebi can stick around, and won't be crippled by statuses thanks to Natural Cure. Hidden Power Fire is an option over Psychic for Scizor and Ferrothorn, but you have Heatran for those so you don't really need it.

    Psyshock is really not needed on Deoxys-S. Its only merits are hitting Blissey and Chansey harder, which you have Superpower for. Psyshock puts you at a disadvantage with Pokemon like Gliscor and Bulk Up Conkeldurr. I suggest replacing it with Psycho Boost, a 140 base power Psychic-type attack, which is almost twice as powerful as Psyshock. Think of it as Draco Meteor for Deoxys.


    Good luck with the team, hope I helped
  4. backflip

    backflip

    Joined:
    Aug 3, 2007
    Messages:
    51
    Hey. Not much to offer for constructive change, but just a few things to mention as another guy who runs and loves his SD Luke team. I've encountered several offensive Gliscor (only three of them tbh, but thats a lot in comparison to how predictable his move-sets have been in the recent past) as an effort to replace the Garchomp void. Luke is out sped and Extremespeed 3HKO's with Poison Heal. He also beats your Gliscor and can cause some grief switching in at +2 if he nets a solid predict. Nothing that you need to change the team to fix, just something to be mindful of when preparing a sweep against Gliscor.

    I would also keep Celebi as is, as a Thundurus at +2 is probably going to kill something to allow your revenge killer in, unless my calcs were wrong.

    Lastly, if you ever find yourself craving a revamp, I highly recommend exploring Memento Latios, who is stupidly effective at setting up Lucario sweeps.
  5. Heist

    Heist
    is a Team Rater Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Past WCoP Winneris a SPL Winner

    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2009
    Messages:
    1,317
    Lucario is definitely an underestimated threat and I think you have built a team that really helps it sweep. I think the biggest issue with this team is that the two best counters, and most common counters, to that set are Jellicent and Reuniclus and you have no real out-and-out way of removing them. With Lava Plume, Heatran can weaken Jellicent with a burn, but you honestly have no decent switch-in to Reuniclus. Celebi is your best switch-in at the moment and all Celebi can do is hope that it can get lucky and beat Reuniclus in the NP/CM war. Your other sweeper, Deoxys-S, cannot really threaten Reuniclus either. I suppose Jellicent does a decent job against Reuniclus, although it really needs a ton more special-defense and Cursed Body so Reuniclus cannot hit you with Psychic. If you move those defense EVs into special defense you will easily be able to defeat the Bold Reuniclus and should come out on top against the Modest Calm Mind variants most of the time.

    I think your team would really benefit with a Scarf Tyranitar > Deoxys-S. Scarf Tyranitar is a much more reliable Thundurus switch-in than Deoxys and is able to "surprise" your opponent and outrun and KO. Scarf Tyranitar gives you an excellent way of weakening and potentially removing both Jellicent and Reuniclus. Most Jellicent will generally stay in on Tyranitar as they will expect you to be slower, and will stay in to burn so you can do over 75% with a Crunch, or Pursuit it on the switch. This works the same way with Reuniclus, although the most defensively invested will only take 60% minimum from a Crunch. Scarf Tyranitar can also remove those Latias that are bulky enough to live a Extremespeed from Lucario. This goes the same for the rare, but very dangerous, Gengar. I would suggest a moveset of Crunch / Pursuit / Ice Beam or Ice Punch / Stone Edge. If you use Ice Punch you can try Superpower over Stone Edge as Ice Punch can OHKO Thundurus.

    If you don't like the Tyranitar suggestion, definitely use Psycho Boost like Moo suggested
  6. Delko

    Delko was a tab-made man
    is a Tutor Alumnusis a Team Rater Alumnusis a Super Moderator Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus
    Mentor

    Joined:
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    Messages:
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    Hi

    I also suggest Scarfed Tyranitar instead of Deoxys-S. Not only does this help your team by removing threats as Choice Specs Latios, Thunderus and the likes, it will also help you against opposing Weather teams and most members of your team are immune to Sandstorm anyway. If you make this change I will also like to suggest Surf on Jellicent instead of Shadow Ball.
    I also like the Celebi suggestion from Moo, using a Bulkier Celebi will fit your team better. Don't worry about Scizor as Heatran, Jellicent and Gliscor can handle those well enough.

    Goodluck
  7. Raikiri

    Raikiri

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2011
    Messages:
    37
    If you want to help Lucario sweep a team I would suggest using a poke that is prone to being pursuit bait like Latias, Latios, Gengar, ect. The team it self is weak to Latios and Latias unless u keep your Heatran healthy. So I wouldn't use Heatran as a lead in that case because it is the worst thing to lead with right now.

    If you want to keep your team similar I would give Celebi the lead role if you can make that work. It doesn't have to have Stealth Rock but Heatran can still carry it if people switch into a Celebi counter that Heatran most likely can handle no problem.

    If you want some assurance that the Lati's will be taken out u can probably take out Deoxys for scarf Tyranitar.
  8. Rackham

    Rackham

    Joined:
    Oct 17, 2010
    Messages:
    252
    Thanks, Moo. You're totally right about Thundurus and Rotom-W. Anyway, I've tested out your bulky Celebi and I really like it. I decided to opt for HP Fire over Psychic though, because the only time that I tend to not use Giga Drain is against Scizor/Ferrothorn. Psycho Boost is another really nice option, since I tend not to use Psyshock much anyway, so I've added that in too.

    The Gliscor variants that run enough speed to outrun Lucario tend not to have enough bulk to effectively counter Excadrill. That said, you are right and they do pop up occasionally, so I do need to make sure I know what set they're running, however this isn't too difficult as the damage difference between the two types of set is fairly noticeable and also, offensive Gliscor sets will tend to reveal themselves fairly early because the way they are played tends to be different to normal Gliscor sets. Moreover, they tend to be easier to kill and so aren't that much of an issue so long as I perform the necessary scouting. I've actually tried Dual Screens Memento Latios before, but I really don't like having to lose one of my pokemon to set up a sweep, especially has Lucario tends to get plenty of opportunities as it is with all these Tyranitars running around. The thing with Lucario is that against some teams, he can come in more than once with +2, so Latios, although good a opening up a sweeping opportunity is largely unnecessary when using Lucario.

    Regarding the two counters. First, Jellicent: To be honest, when played well it can be a pain, although Celebi does a pretty good job of stopping it doing too much and Jellicent can reliably stop it so long as it doesn't come in on a Will-O-Wisp or Taunt and doesn't carry Shadow Ball. However you are totally right about Reuniclus. It and DD shed skin Scrafty are the two big weaknesses this team has. Normally, I have to deal with Reuniclus with Jellicent, through a combination of Taunt and Shadow Ball, although alot of the time Jellicent goes down with it. The main way I have to deal with it is to try to reduce its set-up opportunities to a minimum. +2 Lucario's Close Combat does 50.71% minimum to 252/252 Bold Reuniclus, so it cannot switch in consistently. The main pokemon that it tries to switch in on is Jellicent, who can taunt and Shadow Ball, which is a 3HKO, however, like I say, it is a real pain in the ass because Psychic deals a fair amount of damage back. Unfortunately, I can't afford to take out the Defense EVs because I rely on Jellicent to help check alot of the physical threats that can take Gliscor on. If I really need to, I can try to stall Reuniclus out of its Focus blast pp with lots of sitching and Roar it out with Heatran but if I resort to that I'll lose at least one pokemon. But, like I said, I have alot of difficulty with a well-played Reuniclus.

    I was considering scarf Tyranitar before, actually and I really like the idea. I've used him in a few teams this gen and found him to be really effective, so I'll test it out and get back to you on that. Thanks for the rate.


    Yeah, see above regarding ScarfTar and Bulky Celebi. I don't see what Surf over Shadow Ball would help with though. Shadow ball gets a SE hit on Latios, Reuniclus and opposing Jellicent, which I know isn't Jellicent's main job, but helps Jellicent maintain an offensive presence against alot of the things that like to switch into it, whereas Surf doesn't have as much utility offensively or defensively, and if I did opt for water STAB, I'd use Scald for the burn chance.

    Thanks for the rate. Testing Scarf Tyranitar, and, like I say, I do play fairly cautiously with Heatran, though I appreciate your point. As for pursuit-weak pokemon, I find Celebi lures out Tyranitar and Scizor really well as it is. Alot of Pursuit bait pokemon from 4th Gen are not so effective (?) now, because ScarfTar is alot less common.
  9. Delko

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    Surf or Scald is for opposing Infernape, Heatran, HP Ice Landorus, etc. Jellicent is your main counter and should be able to hit them hard.
  10. Rackham

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    Bumpity bump- Updated with threat list.

    Jellicent doesn't really need to hit them, as he can stall them out for days, and then I lose out on the stuff I do need to hit.
  11. Stunt

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    Haha. The HP Fighting on my Ninetales and Scald on my Starmie almost makes me feel like this RMT is talking directly to me. But I went ahead and changed it to HP ground >:

    good team and all, but once heatran dies to some misfortune, Volcarona is free to deal damage to your team. Obscure variants of Volcarona could ultimately sweep your entire team. Mixed venusaur takes a chunk out of your team as well.
  12. chimpact

    chimpact fire nation
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    Your EV's could use a little work.
    EVs: 236 HP / 156 SAtk / 116 Spd for Celebi gives it 2 more special attack, but i'm not sure why you are even running those speed EV's. If you give it a little more you can outpace non scarfed neutral nature rotom.

    244 hp is a poison heal number for gliscor. 352 / 8 = 44, which is the max hp gliscor can heal. Also try 244 hp on heatran as well for lefties number.

    Lastly, I think a mixed infernape can help you deal with a lot of the things you have trouble with if you replace it over deoxys. It has good synergy with lucario in dealing lots of damage to many common fighting switch ins with u-turn/hp ice.
  13. IronBullet93

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    Hey,

    So Scarf Tyranitar is a great addition to this team over Deoxys, it makes a decent enough check to DD Scrafty and Reuniclus, two big threats to this team. I would suggest running a moveset of Crunch | Pursuit | Superpower | Rock Slide/Stone Edge/Ice Punch, since Superpower is necessary to hit Scrafty and Crunch is needed for Reuniclus. You can use Ice Punch to gain universal coverage against flying types and nail Gliscor, but the rock STAB is useful for increased power and a way to hit Volcarona. Keep in mind that Tyranitar will not be taking boosted Bug Buzzes from the more offensive Volcarona sets without any defense investment.

    Delko raises a good point about Scald on Jellicent. Perhaps you would like to run Scald over WoW instead, since a Jellicent that is walled by Heatran is just ridiculous. Scald has a decent burn chance in itself, and is very important to hit Gliscor, who otherwise uses Jellicent as setup bait. You really need to be able to hit the Pokemon that Jellicent is supposed to counter, and since you are adamant about running Shadow Ball, dual STAB seems the best way to go.

    Consider Toxic over Protect on Heatran. It is important for Heatran to actually do something against CM Latias and Volcarona other than just roaring them out, or otherwise you could be vulnerable to last mon sweeps. Removing Protect will not make it harder to play against Politoed, since you can simply switch to Celebi on the Water attack, who will take it like nothing and you can adjudge the set from there. Toxic is also very important in whittling down bulky Waters such as Rotom-W, Quagsire, Gastrodon and especially Jellicent, who is one of the top Lucario counters. It does become more difficult to play against Choice users, but the above advantages make Toxic worth trying.

    Solid team, and good luck!
  14. High Roller

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    I would replace Psyshock with HP Fire. That would allow you to hit two of the most common OU threats for x4. Off the top of my head I can't think of anything Psyshock would hit for useful damage. Don't bother trying to fight Blissey/Chansey. Even Superpower isn't going to help. Deoxys-S is suppose to hit and run or sweep. You shouldn't be attacking more than once with it per Pokemon anyways because you'll most likely die to almost any incoming attack.


    If you really want to keep a Psychic attack then do what was already suggested and use Psycho Boost instead, but just keep in mind with HP Fire/Superpower/Ice Beam/Thunderbolt you're hitting quite a lot of common OU Pokemon for x4 damage.


    And last but not least you might want to invest in some Atk EV's to have a better chance of killing Tyranitar. I copied the one I saw on this site and it claimed 12 Atk EV's would guarantee a KO on a bulky Tyranitar. A quick calc revealed that that was not true, but it's pretty close. Lowest roll was 8 damage less than max life I think. Something to think about.
  15. -Tsunami-

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    Hey there, cool team.
    On Jellicent though, Cursed Body is the preferred option since it can prove useful in many circumstances, such as completely walling calm mind reuniclus if cursed body activates on psychic/psyshock. Oh also, "At +2 he 2HKOs Defensive Skarmory after stealth rock damage." Lucario actually ohkoes after +2 and Stealth Rock. I also agree with everyone else on Scarf Tar > Deoxys-S. Jellicent can stop your Lucario sweep cold, and getting the ko on it while negating leftovers recovery on walls is always nice. Jellicent also hinders the rest of your team, besides Celebi. I also agree that Scald > WoW on Jellicent.

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