1. Welcome to the Orange Islands! Please remember to read the rules. Come chat with us on our IRC channel and enjoy your stay!
  2. Welcome to Smogon! Check out the Smogon Starters Hangout for everything you need to know about starting out in the community. Don't forget to introduce yourself in the Introduction and Hangout Thread, too!
  3. Welcome to Smogon Forums! Please take a minute to read the rules.

Black & White Battle Subway Records (now with gen. 4 records!)

Discussion in 'Orange Islands' started by Peterko, Mar 23, 2011.

  1. skitz0phrenic

    skitz0phrenic

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2011
    Messages:
    425
    Post it up man, this thread is pretty friendly :)

    We're all here because we want to blow the roof off the subway and the more people trying the better! I'm sure some people would be glad to give you some advice.
  2. Ripamon

    Ripamon

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2011
    Messages:
    43
    Well it starts off with Zapdos
    Zapdos aka Electric
    Timid Nature
    Flawless IVS
    126hp 126 sp.atk, 252 speed evs
    @Sitrus Berry
    Pressure
    Toxic
    Thunderbolt
    Substitute
    Roost

    The classic SubStall Zapdos. Usually results in a free 3-0 victory. Basically the strategy is to toxic on the first turn, or sub if they are likely to use status attacks.
    I attack straight away if they are weak to thunderbolt

    Milotic aka Stallotic
    @leftovers
    Flawless IVS
    Bold
    170hp evs, 170 def, 170 sp.def
    Scald
    Ice Beam
    Toxic
    Recover

    Basically try to go straight out for the win, or toxic stall the opponent. I use scald if they are steel or posion types.

    Garchomp aka Blueflash
    @choice scarf
    Flawless IVS
    252 atk,252 speed
    Jolly
    Earthquake
    Fire Blast
    Outrage
    Dragon Claw

    In my first streak, i went with an Adamant Garchomp, but lost to the subway boss because of his dragon dancing Haxorus. I found out that even with a choice scarf, an Adamant Garchomp is still slower than a jolly +1 Garchomp. Because of this, i acquired a jolly one, forgoing the slight drop in power.

    As i said before, my record is 49 and still going, i beat the subway boss last night and saved my game in ectasy( not gonna touch it for maybe 2 days, getting to him was so hard!).

    Anyway, Garchomp is basically there to fight electrics, which threathen both my first two pokemon, and also to combat Stone Edge users, if i fear for the crit on my Zapdos.

    So, any suggestions are welcome. Thanks in advance. :)
  3. Taylor

    Taylor stardust infinite
    is a Team Rater Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus

    Joined:
    Dec 11, 2006
    Messages:
    4,024
    I might try this version of Cloyster in Multi Doubles. Surf + Blizzard will probably prove to be more useful overall, and this kind of physical Abomasnow will be able to hit plenty of its challengers hard.
  4. NoCheese

    NoCheese I'll play the wild Lombre, no never no more
    is a member of the Site Staffis a Forum Moderatoris a Contributor to Smogon
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2011
    Messages:
    277
    Looks like a fun team. I certainly have had success with stall Milotic!

    A couple of points, though:

    1. You have a big weakness to curse resters, particularly the ground/water types that zapdos can't thunderbolt. Steel cursers like Registeel might also prove problematic.

    2. Milotic's even EV spread seems suboptimal. At the very least, slip 4 EV into speed to outspeed other Milotic and Gyarados. The even spread you use leaves you skewed towards special defense pretty heavily, even with a bold nature. Since you probably want to wall both special and physical attacks, putting 252 into hp gives you the best bang for your buck on mixed defense. If you then put 252 into defense too, to make up for Milotic's stat skew towards special defense, you get very even 202/144/145 defenses.

    Edit: On the subject of EVs, note that only multiples of 4 will help you, so you can free up 4 more EV on Zapdos by changing the SPA and HP EVs from 126 to 124. At level 50, sometimes the first 4 EV will give you a stat point, and sometimes they won't, but after that you'll only increase a stat by one for every additional 8 EVs you add. Since you are 6 EV short of your full 510 already, this change leaves you with 10 left over to spend as you will. Unfortunately, my EV calculator says you'll need to bump HP and SPA to 132, not just 128, to gain an additional stat point at level 50, so you'll only get 1 bonus stat point out of this, but it's better than nothing.
  5. Ripamon

    Ripamon

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2011
    Messages:
    43
    Thats very helpful, Nocheese.
    Ive certainly taken on board the advice on EV's, and will be looking to re ev train these pokes as soon as possible.

    It is as you said, curse resters, and even rest Cresselia are big problems to face. Traditionally, i just try to pp stall their most harmful moves(usually only two moves(with low pp)) such as a cursed stone edge or even a rock slide. The reality is that 90% of the time, pokemon do not curse against zapdos or garchomp. They only do so against milotic, perhaps because they realize that that is theyre only chance at the OHKO. Because of this, i usually take advantage of their unwillingness to curse and just attack against Zapdos by first toxicing them, and then subbing and roosting until theyre out of their attacking moves. When this is done, and theyve used theyre first rest, i then allow them to just spam rest, which fails because their hp is already full. As you have probably seen from the list, a good amount of cursers have EQ, so i jus let them waste this as well since it dont affect zapdos, and then give them a final toxic once theyre out of rest, or let them kill themselves to struggle.
  6. sasuke-kun19

    sasuke-kun19

    Joined:
    Aug 3, 2009
    Messages:
    184
    I'm a usual follower of this thread and even if I haven't posted many times, i've always tried to get good records! now i've just got my best one on doubles (84, still going) and beated my previous one (82, in the firstpage)!! i'll post the team when i get a higher streak, until that I say good luck to everyone =)

    edit: just got 161, thinking i'll go far =)
  7. Pikiwyn

    Pikiwyn

    Joined:
    Aug 22, 2010
    Messages:
    60
    Battle Subway Super Single Record: 217

    Shuckle @ Chesto Berry
    Sturdy, Impish
    252 HP, 252 SpD, 4 Def
    Stats: 127, 15, 276, 13, 282, 25
    ~Power Split
    ~Rollout
    ~Rest
    ~Acupressure

    My crippler/set-up Pokémon, Shuckle can stall A LOT of Pokémon and is basically indestructible once set up, I haven’t had him faint once while set up. So I start the battle with Power Split then set up if I can otherwise switch to another Pokémon to set up. There’s a Cobalion with Psych Up which would be a guaranteed loss if I set up with Shuckle, so I make sure I set up with another Pokémon against the trainers that can have that Cobalion, I’ve never faced it though.

    Ferrothorn @ Leftovers
    Iron Barbs, Sassy
    212 HP, 252 SpD, 46 Def
    Stats: 176, 114, 157, 70, 184, 23
    ~Gyro Ball
    ~Curse
    ~Leech Seed
    ~Substitute

    Ferrothorn is great, it resists all of Shuckle and Gyarados’ weaknesses, so there is basically no Pokémon that none of my Pokémon can set up on. Another cool thing is that Pokémon often have a moveset with Earthquake and Rock Slide/Stone Edge in, which lets me switch between Ferrothorn and Gyarados until the opponent can do hardly any damage. I made the HP EVs that way because it gets the highest leftovers healing percentage and a higher percentage of Leech Seed healing, it’s probably not that useful though. Things love freezing Ferrothorn so predicting when Substitute will break helps for that and critical hits.

    Gyarados @ Lum Berry
    Intimidate, Adamant
    4 HP, 252 Att, 252 Spe
    Stats: 171, 194, 99, 59, 120, 133
    ~Dragon Dance
    ~Substitute
    ~Waterfall
    ~Earthquake

    I never knew how useful Intimidate would be, I never even considered it, so thanks to Some Guy for thinking of that! I like Gyarados’ weaknesses and resistances more than Salamence, but I think the extra power and Speed of Salamence would’ve been good. Waterfall and Earthquake don’t have very good coverage but Gyarados’ movepool is depressing and Return makes Ferrothorn too difficult to take down.

    How I lost:
    I lost because I thought I could outsmart the AI. Opponent starts with Marowak, it uses Stone Edge (critical hit), Sturdy activates, Shuckle uses Power Split. I check its moveset and see that Gyarados resists all of its other moves. Now I know that Shuckle is completely unusable except for switching in again to let me get an extra Intimidate. So from my experience with the AI I know that if the AI has several moves that will KO the target they will not select the most powerful move (especially if their most powerful move has a low accuracy), so I think I’ll switch Gyarados in to take a resisted attack. I switch and it uses Stone Edge… Critical hit… Gyarados faints. Shuckle in, Marowak uses Low Kick, Ferrothorn took its Fire punches until it got to red HP and Marowak fainted, then Escavalier come in for the KO.
  8. some_guy

    some_guy

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2011
    Messages:
    16
    Congrats on the streak, Pikiwyn.
    I was just wondering about Accupressure + Rollout, and it looks pretty solid. But Stealth rock is pretty useful also.
    In one of my first streaks I had a fully set-up Mence that lost to a Donphan with Sturdy + Custap with a Stone Edge crit. But I guess if you've still got two sweepers that's not such a big problem.

    I've been using Shuckle, Mence and Vaporeon (Aqua Ring, Acid Armor, Sub, Baton Pass) Which is going pretty well.
    The other day I faced the Scarf Rampardos with Head Smash; the only poke who can 1HKO Shuckle. I let it KO Mence and hit Vap for about 60%, by which time it'd died from recoil, and fortunately I was able to stall out the other 2.

    Have you faced Skarmory with Spikes, SR and Whirlwind?
    I guess Gyarados could probably 2HKO with Waterfall...
  9. Pikiwyn

    Pikiwyn

    Joined:
    Aug 22, 2010
    Messages:
    60
    @Some Guy, I do sometimes wish I had Stealth Rock with things like Volcarona and Focus Sash Flareon against Ferrothorn, and Sturdy users against Gyarados, but I never lost a match because of not having SR, so I think Acupressure works better, also its a great back up. For Rampardos I usually switch to Gyarados and then Shuckle can survive a Head Smash and Power Split and Ferrothorn can get in one or two Curses.

    I faced that Skarmory once and what I did was I switched between two of my Pokemon until they both fainted, so then I had Ferrothorn left who could set up and Skarmory couldn't do anything to it.

    Vaporeon seems interesting, how far have you gotten in your streaks?
  10. some_guy

    some_guy

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2011
    Messages:
    16
    Shuckle survives a -1 head smash? That's good to know.
    Also, that's a good plan against that Skarmory. Looks like I'm still learning.

    Vaporeon is going pretty well, the second attempt lost at 105, and I'm still going with the third at 70ish. It seems pretty solid.

    The most interesting thing I found is that if I switch from Shuckle to Vap on a water move, after I switch back the AI will refuse to use any more water against Shuckle. They'll prefer to use a move that does nothing! Can be pretty useful.

    Also, it's useful that most of the annoying flinch-hax on Shuckle comes from physical pokes, which Vaporeon can cover.
  11. Pikiwyn

    Pikiwyn

    Joined:
    Aug 22, 2010
    Messages:
    60
    Water Absorb with Acupressure Shuckle sounds like it could have a lot of potential because then there would be only two types that Shuckle couldn't set up on, and it would be really easy to set up if Aqua Ring was baton passed to Shuckle.

    I tried Flash on Shuckle once and it worked out pretty well, with Aqua Ring and Acid Armor passed to Salamence you shouldn't have a problem fully setting up and having a Substitute, so it would take two Sturdy/Focus Sash Pokemon to stop Salamence, and most Sturdy Pokemon are physical, so not having Stealth rock shouldn't be a big problem.
  12. some_guy

    some_guy

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2011
    Messages:
    16
    Yeah, that's a good point. I'll definitely give Acupressure Shuckle a go. Having two sweepers is a lot more flexible anyway, and Struggle Bug can basically be replaced with further Power Splits.
  13. Chinese Dood

    Chinese Dood

    Joined:
    Aug 15, 2008
    Messages:
    1,072
    112 streak with this team for Single Subway:
    Latios / Levitate / Timid @ Life Orb - Psyshock / Surf / Dragon Pulse / Memento
    Suicune / Pressure / Bold @ Lum Berry - Surf / Calm Mind / Substitute / Rest
    Scizor / Technician / Adamant @ Leftovers - Swords Dance / Bullet Punch / Substitute / Superpower

    Sort of similar to my previous Latios-Suicune-Metagross team (or other Latios-Suicune teams), except now replaced with Scizor that I used before for other teams, and more importantly, Memento on Latios... which is obviously for Suicune/Scizor to setup.

    Originally I was going to try it with Drapion (and even tried Acupressure Tentacruel... which did not work reliably enough), but the slow set up sometimes made things unreliable. That said though, maybe I can give it another try since I sort of let go of that idea in earlier streaks since Scizor was doing well anyway (and Suicune's too good). I haven't replaced Surf with Scald yet though. I'll probably do that too.

    Dragon Pulse and Psyshock are there to stay. 3rd moveslot was a debate between Surf / HP Ground (which mine has) / Tbolt. I decided on Surf for now. HP Ground would be good with Dragon Pulse, but Surf's extra 25 base power sort of wins there, while Tbolt would not be able to hit steel type threats like Excadrill / Magnezone. Surf is resisted by Empoleon, but Suicune takes nothing from any of the Empoleons (even the swords Dance one which only has aqua jet and metal claw).

    How I lost:
    Opponent's team was:
    1. 889 | Eelektross | Bold | Leftovers | Charge Beam | Grass Knot | Flamethrower | Protect | HP/SpD
    2. 866 | Jolteon | Timid | Razor Fang | Thunderbolt | Hyper Beam | Fake Tears | Signal Beam | Spd/SpA
    3. One of the 2 Toxic/Protect/Leech Seed/Giga Drain Roserades

    Latios was unable to 2HKO with Dragon Pulse after leftovers + Protect. Life orb + Eelektross Flamethrower together gets Latios to a bit less than 50% HP after KOing Eelektross.
    Jolteon KOs with Signal Beam before Latios can Psyshock.
    Jolteon Fake Tears Scizor as Scizor Swords Dance.
    Bullet Punch does around 80%. Jolteon KOs with Tbolt.
    Suicune takes Tbolt dealing around 75% and KOs back with Scald.
    Roserade Giga Drains for the KO.

    I misplayed with Scizor vs Jolteon, since Superpower + -1 Bullet Punch will KO Jolteon. Then Scizor can take care of Roserade even if Suicune cannot. O well.
  14. Groombridge

    Groombridge

    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2007
    Messages:
    131
    This is a really nice moveset - it looks like a nice split between setup lead and attacking lead. There aren't many things that can do both, let alone on a single set, and I'd completely forgotten that Latios gets Memento. (Lat is just the best Subway poke ever.)

    The problem I have with setup leads is just how dull they are to lose - whenever I tried to use one, my attention would wander and I'd make mistakes. With this, 'setup' is an emergency, one-click option, and attacking is Lat's primary life goal. It almost makes me want to try singles, but my DS Lite and its charger have finally both packed up...
  15. atsync

    atsync Where the "intelligence" of TRAINERS is put to the test!
    is a Pokemon Researcheris a Contributor to Smogon

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2011
    Messages:
    1,033
    Yeah that Latios looks kinda cool.

    Actually it's funny because I've also been thinking of using an offensive Memento lead as well: Zoroark. It pretty fast and gets Memento and Taunt (for Trick Room and other set up pokemon). I'll probably round it off with Dark Pulse and either Flamethrower or Counter (with Focus Sash obviously). Now I just need to think of some good back ups (I'm not necessarily looking to abuse Illusion though). Not sure how well it'll work (Latios is probably better) but we'll see.

    But yeah definitely use Scald over Surf. The extra power is unnecessary and Scald can make stupid freeze hax a non-issue should the situation arise.
  16. Mr. XYZ

    Mr. XYZ

    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2011
    Messages:
    60
    I tried a timid Memento/Nightburst/Flamethrower/Grass Knot Zoroark a few times, highest streak was close to 100 (with Curse/Sub Ferro and different Dragons as backup) It´s definitly fun and alot faster than trickscarf but as Groombridge said it´s attention and mistakes are a real problem.
    Counter is a great idea, is it possible to breed Counter and Memento?
  17. TM13IceBeam

    TM13IceBeam

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2010
    Messages:
    3,635
    Zoroark is in the same egg group as Smeargle, so yes it can have any egg move combination. Male Smeargle (Counter + Memento) + Female Zoroark.
  18. ashez

    ashez

    Joined:
    Aug 13, 2009
    Messages:
    177
    Had couple ideas recently so thought i'd post due to bordem lol.

    Idea one:
    A new leaderboard for black/white focusing on NFE pokemon and being played in the normal single/double lines. Alot pokes never get used and sure many people dont use the normal lines anymore so thought it could be interesting to have a little break from serious streaking and use some new/different pokes in the lower line to see how easy/hard it is? The obvious downside is the results would be capped at the end of the normal line (unless you carried it on so first line followed by w/e you get to in super). Was just an idea doubt it would catch on but think it could bring some interesting ideas and tactics into the main line.

    Idea two:
    This ones a team idea, red here few days ago about someone using the SPD reducing move, and got me thinking about trying something similar then i had an idea! Leer hits both pokes and reduces there defence, then use a hard hitting poke to double hit them with earthquake/rock slide. This trail of thought brought me to these leads:

    Syther@ evolite
    (unsure on evs,max speed but duno if should go HP or attack)
    Leer
    Aerial Ace
    Quick attack
    Tail wind/light screens/sunny day/protect

    Garchomp@ Band/Life orb
    normal evs
    Earthqauke
    rock slide
    protect
    dragon claw

    As you can see its extremely basic, syther leers before chomp bangs them with quake. havent looked into back 2 yet, but would obviously need to beable to hand ice and flying types (depends on band or life orb)

    anywhooo just thought i'd post them lol any ideas be glad to hear :)
  19. Groombridge

    Groombridge

    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2007
    Messages:
    131
    Wat

    Anywho, Leer and Growl are actually way more useful in doubles as they hit both targets. IIRC, tRe Inanimate used Leer Kingdra in a doubles Battle Hall run in Gen IV, to great success. The usual problems are still there, though: there are more Sashes in Gen V, and now Sturdy pokes survive OHKOs.

    The utility Scyther is a nice idea - Tailwind support is always cool. But Whimsicott can do something similar with Tickle and Fake Tears, so hmm.
  20. Peterko

    Peterko Never give up!
    is a Researcher Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Sep 20, 2005
    Messages:
    1,070
    another MetaTorn streak: 157

    In the future, I will probably try Metagross exploding into partner Prankster Sableye: Foresight, Leer, Fake Out, something...but I was too lazy to breed Sableye, even though I have a female since last week...I only bred Jynx yesterday and tried SpecsMie Surf with FO,LK,IB,GK Jynx, lost at 35 to Haxorus because I forgot it outsped Jynx...

    As for Leer, yes it´s useful, but Helping Hand does the same thing with priority and is unaffected by Clear Body, etc.

    On topic of streaks, maaan, I lost another good MetaTorn one at #158 to those damned legends two hours ago...

    Suicune + Entei lead

    Entei is bad because the Scarf Eruption one OHKOs Meta, the others have Overheat, Overheat and Flamethrower (I think), but Meta outspeeds two...

    I hate Suicune with a passion...that stupid thing just won´t die, I have to gang up on it with like 3 attacks...there´s Blizzard hax, Icy Wind hax, Calm Mind and of course Protect stall...this is one of the most unpredictable Subway Pokémon and you almost never know its set...

    So yeah, I either risk and stay to dent both with a heavy quake plus Flying Gem Acrobatics or switch Meta for Hydra and get a SE Blizzard in the face...oh and I should attack Entei...

    of course I stayed and attacked Cune, Acrobatics 60% dmg (ridiculous) to Cune, Sitrus (fffff...) back to 75%, Entei Overheat bye bye Meta, Cune Mirror Coat...

    I brought in Medicham and used Fake Out + Acrobatics on Entei, fearing a Stone Edge...Cune used Hydro Pump on Cham

    Turn 3 I finish off Entei with Acrobatics and Medicham Low Kicks Cune for about 60% dmg (lol) and Cune Ice Beams Cham for the KO...

    foe Landorus, my Hydra

    Turn 4 Tornadus KOs Cune and Landorus Protected (the Ground Gem Quake/Slide set)

    foe Moltres

    2-2, both teams with 100% HP

    I decided to double target Moltres with Acro+Pulse...well, both foes outsped Hydra (go awful 150 speed), Lando Slide and Moltres Air Slash...at Hydra, Hydra flinched

    Turn 6 Tornadus KOs Moltres, Hydra takes another Slide (Torn faints) and 15 HP left, Dragon Pulse, LO damage, Hydra fainted...

    0-1

    My initial idea after the latest streak (185) was to:
    1. switch to Adamant Medicham to hit harder (it already does but sometimes I wish it did a little bit more) under Tailwind,
    2. put ThunderPunch on Cham instead of Ice Punch or Psycho Cut because of that pesky Slowbro that gets on my nerves all the time and also I face a lot of Waters and have a tough time against them, also Gyarados is nasty...

    ...but I stick with that Cham for now...I really really hate that Adamant Cham is 2 points slower than two Tyranitars...in case I don´t have Tailwind up...Psycho Cut is needed to cover for Hydra and kills Fighters...Ice Punch is amazing against Pilots and Dragons...I don´t know, Fake Out doesn´t do much but it is strategically important in some cases where I need to waste a turn of TR or set up Tailwind or let Hydra hit something without being attacked...

    lol instead, I´ve decided to switch back to Timid Hydra...I love Hydra, but holy cow I hate its speed and 150 without Tailwind up often gets me into tight situations mostly against stuff with 150-161 Speed...

    I´m back at 49...
  21. atsync

    atsync Where the "intelligence" of TRAINERS is put to the test!
    is a Pokemon Researcheris a Contributor to Smogon

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2011
    Messages:
    1,033
    Yep, as TM13 says, Zoroark is in the field egg group and can breed with Smeargle, so any combination of egg moves is possible (in this case Dark Pulse + Counter + Memento). I was very happy when I found that out. I only got the idea when I was researching ideas for a Zoroark Illusion-based team, but then I saw all the interesting moves it got and thought that it would be cool to try it as a Mememto lead.

    Actually, I even did a brief test on the normal line using Zoroark with Shedinja in back just to see how the opponents would act (I remember there was a team on the list that used that duo but it seems to have disappeared after one of the updates). That strategy just flat out sucked! Although the opponents ARE fooled into thinking that they are facing a Shendinja, they rarely acted as you want them to. They didn't seem to switch out straight away to give you a free Nasty Plot. Instead they would stay in and status you or set up Trick Room or do other nasty things. Plus there were even times where they just stayed in to attack. If anyone out there is thinking of using an Illusion team, Shedinja is probably not the way to go, but if you do use Shedinja you'll need to use Taunt to stop status and other things.
  22. NoCheese

    NoCheese I'll play the wild Lombre, no never no more
    is a member of the Site Staffis a Forum Moderatoris a Contributor to Smogon
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2011
    Messages:
    277
    I've been theorymoning something like this, perhaps with Jumpman's substitute/swords dance Terrakion as the third poke.

    Most of my thought on this, however, has been about the best moveset for suicune. I absolutely love substitute here, as it provides much appreciated protection against unexpected critical hits, making it much safer to stall out things like thunder. It also protects against bulky 1HKO pokes. Going mono water, however, seems to leave one heavily vulnerable to all the water immune pokemon in the subway, even when fully set up. Suicune can easily stall out some of them, but others appear problematic to me.

    The following is a list of the water absorb (and equivalent) pokemon you may face, with threats to a fully set up suicune identified:

    --

    Water Absorb:
    Poliwrath (50%)
    Politoed (50%)
    Lapras (50%)
    Vaporeon
    Quagsire (50%)
    Maractus (50%) NOT IN SUBWAY
    Jellicent (50%) NOT IN SUBWAY

    Storm Drain:
    Gastrodon (50%)
    Lumineon (50%) NOT IN SUBWAY

    Dry Skin:
    Parasect (50%) NOT IN SUBWAY
    Toxicroak (50%)

    Poliwrath 1 and 2 boost and hit physically
    Poliwrath 4 circle throws and thus phazes you if not behind a sub; has powerful physical attacks to break sub

    Politoed 3 boosts and hits physically

    Lapras 4 phazes with perish song; kills if you don't switch out before it blocks

    Quagsire 4 boosts and hits physically

    Gastrodon 2 and 4 boost and hit physically

    Toxicroak 1 and 4 taunt, potentially stopping you from stalling them out

    --

    Might ice beam be better for Calm Mind Substitute Rest Suicune's one attack? Nothing is immune to it and it gets excellent coverage. I don't have access to icy wind Suicune, else that might be worth considering too.
  23. Chinese Dood

    Chinese Dood

    Joined:
    Aug 15, 2008
    Messages:
    1,072
    Oh, I've used mono-water Suicune for a long time even back in DPP. It's not just this streak, but for BW Subway, of all the threats you mentioned, the only ones that actually "beat" Suicune are the Belly Drum Poliwrath and Perish Song Lapras.

    I haven't faced all of them in that streak of 112, but I've faced Curse Gastrodon multiple of times. From what I've experienced, they seem to always start attacking after 3 or less Curses, at which point, for this team, Earthquake has only a low chance to even break Suicune's sub (since Latios used Memento, which means the Bold Gastrodon is only at +1). It's fairly easily to stall out all the EQ PPs.

    Also, they do not seem to do any more curses if their curse does not boost all of the stats that it is supposed to. I.e. Because of Memento, Gastrodon (just as an example) is at -2 Attack but 0 Def. When it is at +6 Def from Curse, it will only be at +4 Attack, but it does not boost to +6 from my experience. +4 Attack Waterfall also does not break Suicune's sub, whether it's the bold or Careful Gastrodon. Similar thing for Quagsire. It hits a little bit harder, but +4 Waterfall still does not break Suicune's sub, so I just need to stall out 5 EQ PPs, which is fairly easy to do with Lum Rest. I didn't even get my EVs correctly for this Suicune too. Accidentally had 204 HP instead of 205. 205 will allow me to have 4 subs before having to rest.

    Toxicroak taunts are annoying because they stop me from setting up, but yah, I might switch if it's dry skin.

    Suicune does not care about any of the water immune physical attackers that do not have an attack boosting move. The mixed Poliwrath does not do much either. It's probably just because they start attacking (and thus use up its PP) way before it gets the boosts it actually need to beat Suicune's sub.

    Mono Ice might seem good because of no immunities, but there will be plenty of times where Suicune will need to PP stall in order to win, and there are some pokemon that Suicune will not be able to beat still. Example would be QD Leftovers Volcarona, which takes a max of 57% damage if it QDs the first 6 turns as you Ice beam. Plenty of bulky waters with rest will also mean Suicune needs to PP stall, and Lapras 4 can still phase with Perish Song as you are only doing 15.1% max with +6 Ice Beam anyway.

    I honestly cannot say I've used mono Ice Suicune, but I'm pretty sure it will result in a lot longer battles. Of course, if the end results is that you still win, then maybe it's good. O yeah, a few more things that wouldn't be able to Roar/Whirlwind mono water Suicune will be able to phaze Suicune too (like Ninetales / Arcanine / Volcarona, maybe 1 or 2 I forgot).

    So in the end, you get some advantages, you lose some advantages. Maybe you do gain a bit more than you lose, but not sure it is worth it (for me anyway) at the cost of almost guaranteed longer battles.

    On a related note, the event Suicune has Air Slash which is also no immune. Of course it's really only 5 more BP than a Hidden Power, but who knows, maybe somewhat might want to give that a try. I mean, it OHKOs Volcarona, Poliwrath, and Toxicroak at +6 and at least 2HKOs all the other threats mentioned. Timely flinches on Cursing pokemon might be handy too. Of course though, Air Slash means having a hard time vs electrics, most of which can 2HKO if they get crits.

    EDIT: O yeah, also on a related note, I've had some success with CM / Flash Cannon / Sub / Rest Cobalion (Timid with mostly speed and HP). Bold might be better potentially but 1) I wanted to outspeed all (or nearly all) fighting and fire types, and 2) I didn't really want it to be exactly like Suicune, because it isn't. I haven't used it enough to say it's nearly as good as Suicune though, and I sort of have doubts about it being as good as Suicune anyway, with noticeably less bulk and no Pressure ability.

    On a totally unrelated note... I'm going back to Double for the next short while. I'm testing out Frost Breath + Anger Point Tauros. Originally I was thinking of trying Froslass + Tauros, but ... well, let's just say I'm not trying that right now. Right now I'm trying Fake Out Dewgong + Tauros with Tailwind support. I totally don't know how it'd go, so I won't expect too much. It might be fun though, which is what really counts!
    EDIT2: OK, nevermind, it's too hard to get Frost Breath + Anger Point working reliably. Better to go with a good stuffs team... :P
  24. Peterko

    Peterko Never give up!
    is a Researcher Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Sep 20, 2005
    Messages:
    1,070
    Metagross, Tornadus, Medicham, Hydreigon: 349

    Post #1 and post #1001 are mine!

    Good job everyone, I want to see a few thousand more posts with records ;)

    Reserving this place for a nice streak :)

    Pokémon Black Battle Subway Super Doubles streaks: 132, 185, 349

    Team overview:

    1. Metagross @ Choice Band: Iron Head, Earthquake, Ice Punch, Bullet Punch
    2. Tornadus @ Flying Gem: Acrobatics, Substitute, Tailwind, Bulk Up
    3. Medicham @ Focus Sash: Fake Out, Psycho Cut, Ice Punch, Low Kick
    4. Hydreigon @ Life Orb: Dark Pulse, Dragon Pulse, Flamethrower, Protect

    Day 1 (11/26/2011): battles 1-49
    Day 2 (11/27/2011): battles 50-140
    Day 3 (11/28/2011): battles 141-203
    Day 4 (11/29/2011): battles 204-301
    Day 5 (11/30/2011): battles 302-350
    [​IMG]
    1. Metagross "DOOMSDAY“
    Item: Choice Band
    Ability: Clear Body
    Nature: Adamant
    IVs: 31-31-31-21-31-31
    EV spread: 0-252-0-0-6-252
    Lv.50: 155-205-150-99-111-122
    Moves:
    ~ Iron Head
    ~ Earthquake
    ~ Ice Punch
    ~ Bullet Punch
    [​IMG]
    2. Tornadus (M) "TILDEN“
    Item: Flying Gem
    Ability: Prankster
    Nature: Jolly
    IVs: 31-31-31-18-30-31
    EV spread: 0-252-6-0-0-252
    Lv.50: 154-167-91-125-100-179
    Moves:
    ~ Acrobatics
    ~ Substitute
    ~ Tailwind
    ~ Bulk Up
    [​IMG]
    3. Medicham (M) "SANJI“
    Item: Muscle Band
    Ability: Pure Power*
    Nature: Jolly
    IVs: 31-31-31-00-31-31
    EV spread: 6-252-0-0-0-252
    Lv.50: 136-224*-95-xx-95-145
    Moves:
    ~ Fake Out
    ~ Psycho Cut
    ~ Ice Punch
    ~ Low Kick
    [​IMG]
    4. Hydreigon (F) "ROBIN"
    Item: Life Orb
    Ability: Levitate
    Nature: Timid
    IVs: 31-0-31-31-31-31
    EV spread: 0-0-0-252-6-252
    Lv.50: 167-99-110-177-111-165
    Moves:
    ~ Dark Pulse
    ~ Dragon Pulse
    ~ Flamethrower
    ~ Protect


    What´s the probability of facing a Nursery Aide leading with a Glaceon in battle #253 on two separate streaks lol? Last time it cost me my TerraCott streak. Yeah and this time its QC activated turn 1 and Blizzard froze Meta, which was supposed to Quake away Flareon (I subbed Torn and it avoided Blizzard), instead Meta fainted to Overheat...it wasn´t an easy battle but I played flawlessly and FO Glace turn 2 (its QC was activating again) while AcroKOing Flareon, afterwards I had the upper hand against Espy and Umby.

    Videos and logs:

    Video 93-70561-37940: battle #202 vs Gentleman Kavan: Registeel, Landorus, Tornadus, Latias
    1. ScarfLando Slide, Torn flinched, Meta Qake, 60% to Steel, Amnesia.
    2. Torn Tailwind, Lando Slide, Torn KO, Meta Quake, Steel KO.
    - my Hydra, foe Tornadus
    3. Meta back, go Cham, Hydra Protect, Lando Slide, Cham 113/136 HP, Torn Focus Blast, Hydra protected.
    4. Hydra Dark Pulse, Cham Ice Punch, foe Tornadus KO, Lando Slide
    - foe Latias
    5. Hydra Dark Pulse, Latias KO, Cham Ice Punch, Lando KO.
    3-0

    The above battle showcases how HydraCham own under Tailwind.

    Afterwards had a crazy battle #231 that ended 0-0 as my Hydra woke up after 1 turn of sleep against Zong and managed to finish off while fainting to LO damage. I thought I had it won, but turn 4 of TR, 30% CurseHippo didn´t rest for the second time and Quaked instead, which threw me off as I used FO+Dark Pulse on Zong (couldn´t Thrower because that sucker used Rain Dance before that)...oh man, I was a goner here:

    Video 14-81672-48950: battle #231 vs Harlequin Athos: Hippowdon, Conkeldurr, Musharna, Bronzong
    1. Torn Acro, Conk KO, Meta Iron Head 52% to Hippo, Curse.
    - foe Musharna
    2. Torn Acro 40% to Musha, Iron Head 53% to Musha, Musha 7% left, Hippo Chesto Rest, Musha Trick Room.
    3. Hippo Curse, Psychic, CH, Torn KO, Iron Head 25% to Hippo, Sandstorm, Musha KO.
    - foe Zong, my Hydra
    4. Hippo Quake, Zong Levitate, Meta KO, Zong Rain Dance, Hydra Dragon Pulse, Hippo 33% left.
    - my Cham
    5. Fake Out Zong, Hippo Quake, Cham 1/136 HP, Sash, Hydra Dark Pulse Zong to 48% + Sitrus.
    6. Hippo Quake, Cham KO, Zong Gyro Ball Hydra 87/167, Hydra Dark Pulse Zong, TR ended.
    7. Hydra Dragon Pulse, Hippo KO, Hydra 55/167 HP, Zong Hypnosis, Hydra fell asleep.
    8. Hydra fast asleep, Zong Gyro Ball, Hydra 10/167 HP.
    9. Hydra woke up, Dark Pulse, Zong KO, LO dmg, Hydra KO.
    0-0

    Video 70-86331-19264: battle #255 vs Veteran Risha: Moltres, Articuno, Raikou, Heatran
    1. Meta Bullet, Torn Acro, Tres KO, Arti Blizzard, Torn KO, Meta 122/155 HP.
    – my Cham, foe Heatran
    2. B 75%, U turn, Raikou in, Low Kick, Sash, Heatran Earth Power, Meta KO.
    - my Hydra
    3. Shadow Ball 28/136, Dragon Pulse 60% to Raikou, Low Kick, Tran KO.
    - foe Arti
    4. Rai Bolt, Cham KO, Hydra Thrower, Arti KO.
    5. Rai Bolt 91/167, Hydra Dragon Pulse, Rai KO.
    1-0

    Video 25-92783-59000: battle #277 vs Veteran Risha: Registeel, Raikou, Entei, Suicune
    1. Sub, Bolt, Sub broke, Quake, Shuca, 65% & 65%, Curse
    2. Sub, Bolt, Sub broke, Quake, Raikou KO, Steel 3% left, Rest, Chesto
    - foe Entei
    3. Tailwind, Eruption, double KO, Amnesia
    - Cham + Hydra
    4. Dragon Pulse 65%, Low Kick, Entei KO, Amnesia
    - foe Cune
    5. Cune Protect, Dark Pulse+Low Kick protected, Curse
    6. Protect, failed, Dragon pUlse 55%, Low Kick, Cune KO, Curse 3
    7. Thrower 15%, Low Kick 40%, Iron Head, Hydra 13/167
    8. Thrower, LO dmg, Hydra KO, Cham Low Kick, Steel KO
    1-0

    Video 25-92783-59090: battle #283 vs Veteran Risha: Articuno, Moltres, Regirock, Zapdos
    1. Meta Bullet 90% to Arti, Torn Acro, Arti KO, Moltres Thrower, Meta KO.
    - foe Regirock, my Hydra
    2. Torn Acro, Hydra Dark Pulse, Tres KO, Regirock Stone Edge, Torn KO
    - my Cham, foe Zap
    3. Zap Signal Beam, Hydra Dragon Pulse, Cham Low Kick, Regirock KO.
    4. Zap Signal Beam, Hydra KO, Cham Ice Punch 75% dmg.
    5. Zap Air Cutter, Cham 10/136, Cham Ice Punch, Zap KO.
    1-0

    That Risha gets on my nerves...see how she pulled out ArtiTres lead twice? That means I have to decide which one of mine will faint turn 1 as I can´t switch in Hydra (due to Blizzard), which I normally do against Fires...lol at my different approach in the same situation :p

    #300 vs Harlequin: Bronzong, Quagsire, Rhyperior, Reuniclus
    1. Quake, Acro, Fling, TR
    2. Sub, Slide, Quake double KO
    ...I didn´t save the video but I won 1-0 thanks to Rhyperior Quaking its partner at 2-2 instead of Hammer Arming Hydra.


    #314 vs Ice Worker: Beartic, Walrein, Abomasnow, Froslass
    - Blizzard #2 froze Meta after it KOd Bear and Sash Aboma (Acro+IH), afterwards Hydra hit Lass with Dark Pulse and Cham OHKOd Walrein...I would have probably lost, had Lass avoided the Dark Pulse...


    #331 video + log vs Battle Girl (will add this later, actually did not overwrite this battle with my #350 loss)


    #333 vs Doctor: Marowak, Samurott, Froslass, Weezing
    1. Torn Acro, Meta Quake, Wak fainted, Samu Ice Beam, CH, Tornadus fainted.
    - my Hydra, foe Froslass
    2. Hydra Protect, Lass Blizzard, Hydra protected, Meta Quake, Samu Salac Berry, Ice Beam, Hydra protected.
    3. Hydra Protect, but it failed, Lass Blizzard, Hydra avoided, Samu Torrent Hydro Pump, Meta fainted.
    - my Medicham
    4. Cham FO, Samu fainted, Lass Destiny Bond, Hydra Dark Pulse, Lass fainted, took Hydra down with it.
    - foe Weezing
    5. Psycho Cut, Toxic.
    6. Psycho Cut, Weezing fainted.
    1-0

    The Peterko always loses his streaks on sunday curse...

    #350 vs Ranger (set 3): Gyarados, Excadrill, Metagross, Milotic

    -> here I know Gyara is going to Stone Edge Tornadus (or DD) and Exca Quake because of having a Flying partner instead of Rock Slide...

    1. Meta back, Hydra in, Tornadus used Substitute, Gyarados used Stone Edge, Sub broke, Exca Quake, didn´t affect anyone on the field.

    -> good prediction, but unfortunately Stone Edge had to hit...now I will obviously go for the Flamethrower and try another Sub, although Exca Slide is obvious...mistake #1

    2. Tornadus used Substitute, Hydreigon used Flamethrower, Excadrill survives with 10% HP, Gyarados used Stone Edge, Sub broke, Excadrill used Rock Slide, Tornadus fainted.

    -> yeah, those were actually two mistakes, not just one:
    a) I didn´t dmg calc Flamethrower, although I knew/should have known it wasn´t going to OHKO because sometimes it doesn´t
    b) I should´ve used Tailwind with Tornadus, because stupid Gyara is 1 speed point faster than my Medicham...but this turn wasn´t game-deciding


    - I sent in Medicham

    3. Medicham used Fake Out, Hydreigon used Dragon Pulse, Excadrill fainted, Gyarados flinched.

    OK things go smoothly without BrightPowder hax, it´s 3-3

    - foe sent in Metagross

    -> here I checked the Meta set and did Hydra/Cham damage calcs on Gyara...I decided to get rid of Gyarados with Dark Pulse + Low Kick, for a chance to flinch it and do the most damage to Meta in case Dark Pulse CH KOs...

    4. Hydreigon used Dark Pulse, Gyarados used Dragon Dance, Medicham used Low Kick, Gyarados fainted, Metagross used Meteor Mash, Hydreigon fainted.

    - I sent in Metagross, foe Milotic

    -> the following turn is game-deciding. What would you do in this scenario? The obvious answer is...

    5. Medicham used Low Kick, Metagross used Iron Head, foe Meta at 10%, Milotic used Hydro Pump, Cham 18/136, foe Meta flinched.
    6. Foe Meta used Bullet Punch, Cham fainted, my Meta used Iron Head, foe Meta fainted, Milo used Blizzard.
    7. My Meta used Iron Head 43% to Milo, Milo used Hydro Pump.
    8. My Meta used Iron Head 43% to Milo, Milo used Hydro Pump, my Meta fainted.
    0-1

    The answer was too clear if had checked Milotic set/stats...oh wait, I didn´t post the answer yet...I should have Quaked with Metagross. Having a CB Meta means that once in a while, I have to Quake my own Medicham, this was one of those. I would´ve won, no matter what my Medicham did.

    See, Milotic 3 has 170 HP / 99 defense and thus 0 HP and 0 defense EVs.

    My CB Meta does 88-104 dmg to Milotic = 51.7 - 61.7%
    My Medicham does 153-181 dmg to Milotic = 90-100%, which is a 37,5% chance to OHKO, even higher chance due to potential CH.

    That means my Meta will always 2HKO Milotic 3 and it obviously 2HKOs foe Metagross 3...

    So, my winning options were:
    a) Medicham Low Kicks Milotic + Meta Earthquakes = Milotic faints 100%, foe Meta at low health, Medicham probably faints. Next turn my Meta KOs foe Meta
    b) Medicham Low Kicks foe Meta + my Meta Earthquakes = foe Meta faints 100%, foe Milo at <50% health. Next turn my Meta or Cham KOs foe Milotic.

    This was the last battle I fought before lunch-break and thus I didn´t take the time to analyze the situation properly, damn...I´m not really angry, because there were some really amazing battles, a few of those (I´ll update post #1001 with the logs) I only won thanks to luck/not having bad luck...

    On the other hand, this team´s so amazing that it would deserve to be at least #2 on the list, not the current #4 (even behind my Lee-Latios-Hydra-Meta 390 streak, which is almost auto-loss against bad matchup Ice Worker). I really want to prove that and let a good chance slip.
  25. ashez

    ashez

    Joined:
    Aug 13, 2009
    Messages:
    177
    Sounds exciting :)

Users Viewing Thread (Users: 0, Guests: 2)