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Discussion in 'Orange Islands' started by Peterko, Mar 23, 2011.
Sounds exciting :)
I didn´t break the "Peterko always loses his streaks on sunday" curse...
...and the loss was avoidable, yet again.
#350 vs Ranger (set 3): Gyarados, Excadrill, Metagross, Milotic
-> here I know Gyara is going to Stone Edge Tornadus (or DD) and Exca Quake because of having a Flying partner instead of Rock Slide...
1. Meta back, Hydra in, Tornadus used Substitute, Gyarados used Stone Edge, Sub broke, Exca Quake, didn´t affect anyone on the field.
-> good prediction, but unfortunately Stone Edge had to hit...now I will obviously go for the Flamethrower and try another Sub, although Exca Slide is obvious...mistake #1
2. Tornadus used Substitute, Hydreigon used Flamethrower, Excadrill survives with 10% HP, Gyarados used Stone Edge, Sub broke, Excadrill used Rock Slide, Tornadus fainted.
-> yeah, those were actually two mistakes, not just one:
a) I didn´t dmg calc Flamethrower, although I knew/should have known it wasn´t going to OHKO because sometimes it doesn´t
b) I should´ve used Tailwind with Tornadus, because stupid Gyara is 1 speed point faster than my Medicham...but this turn wasn´t game-deciding
- I sent in Medicham
3. Medicham used Fake Out, Hydreigon used Dragon Pulse, Excadrill fainted, Gyarados flinched.
OK things go smoothly without BrightPowder hax, it´s 3-3
- foe sent in Metagross
-> here I checked the Meta set and did Hydra/Cham damage calcs on Gyara...I decided to get rid of Gyarados with Dark Pulse + Low Kick, for a chance to flinch it and do the most damage to Meta in case Dark Pulse CH KOs...
4. Hydreigon used Dark Pulse, Gyarados used Dragon Dance, Medicham used Low Kick, Gyarados fainted, Metagross used Meteor Mash, Hydreigon fainted.
- I sent in Metagross, foe Milotic
-> the following turn is game-deciding. What would you do in this scenario? The obvious answer is...
5. Medicham used Low Kick, Metagross used Iron Head, foe Meta at 10%, Milotic used Hydro Pump, Cham 18/136, foe Meta flinched.
6. Foe Meta used Bullet Punch, Cham fainted, my Meta used Iron Head, foe Meta fainted, Milo used Blizzard.
7. My Meta used Iron Head 43% to Milo, Milo used Hydro Pump.
8. My Meta used Iron Head 43% to Milo, Milo used Hydro Pump, my Meta fainted.
The answer was too clear if had checked Milotic set/stats...oh wait, I didn´t post the answer yet...I should have Quaked with Metagross. Having a CB Meta means that once in a while, I have to Quake my own Medicham, this was one of those. I would´ve won, no matter what my Medicham did.
See, Milotic 3 has 170 HP / 99 defense and thus 0 HP and 0 defense EVs.
My CB Meta does 88-104 dmg to Milotic = 51.7 - 61.7%
My Medicham does 153-181 dmg to Milotic = 90-100%, which is a 37,5% chance to OHKO, even higher chance due to potential CH.
That means my Meta will always 2HKO Milotic 3 and it obviously 2HKOs foe Metagross 3...
So, my winning options were:
a) Medicham Low Kicks Milotic + Meta Earthquakes = Milotic faints 100%, foe Meta at low health, Medicham probably faints. Next turn my Meta KOs foe Meta
b) Medicham Low Kicks foe Meta + my Meta Earthquakes = foe Meta faints 100%, foe Milo at <50% health. Next turn my Meta or Cham KOs foe Milotic.
This was the last battle I fought before lunch-break and thus I didn´t take the time to analyze the situation properly, damn...I´m not really angry, because there were some really amazing battles, a few of those (I´ll update post #1001 with the logs) I only won thanks to luck/not having bad luck...
On the other hand, this team´s so amazing that it would deserve to be at least #2 on the list, not the current #4 (even behind my Lee-Latios-Hydra-Meta 390 streak, which is almost auto-loss against bad matchup Ice Worker). I really want to prove that and let a good chance slip.
I wish they would make a whole section for BS so this one thread wouldn't get so polluted and we could discuss individual pokes for the subway. lol.
What do you guys think about Volt Switching teams for singles? I'm trying one out right now, but I haven't gotten amazingly far yet.
Scizor @ Leftovers
- Break Break
- Bullet Punch
- Sword Dance
Darmanitan @ Life Orb
- Fire Blitz
- Rock Slide
Rotom-W @ Choice Scarf
- Hydro Pump
- Volt Tackle
- Thunder Wave
U-Turn seems to be the more common move though. Most common users of U-Turn being Darmanitan, Infernape, and Staraptor and usually choiced. I have yet to try Darmanitan. I probably will sometime soon when I feel like playing single again.
I personally used Rotom for volt-switching, and while it's ok, it's not that amazing. The most success I have had was Choice Specs Jolteon (with Volt Switch / Tbolt / HP Ice / Shadow Ball). I got 178 streak using SpecsJolt, though obviously it wasn't just one pokemon getting that streak (teammates are cool).
I was debating using darmanitan. It was down to him or Hydragon, but since I can't get a Dark Pulse Hydra, I went with darm instead. I like using Rotom instead because of the water/electric typing it gives me the finishing type cover for my team. And his ability to trick stuff around.
yea i used a volt turn team.
consisted of latios, scizor, and rotom.
typical life orb latios, banded scizor, and scarf rotom.
That last team I posted got me noticing some stuff, and I'd like a little help with this team I'm trying to put together. I know this isn't an RMT thread, but I don't know where else to go really for BSW stuff...
So I switched Darmanitan out for Hydregion, and I was gonna try out Starraptor in Hydr place, but that would leave me with kinda of a gap...so I figured maybe I'll try a team built around these 2...and this is the team I came up with on paper, I am working EV training the one and haven't bread the other yet.
Starraptor @ Life Orb
Adamant - Intimidate
Hydregion @ Wide Lens
Modest - Levitate
Mamoswine @ Chesto Berry
Jolly - Snow Cloak
I know the Mamoswine is kind of a wierd build, but thats the biggest one I would like thoughts and opinions on. I picked him because he covers the bases for typing, but thought instead of doing all three really offensive I could use mamoswine with his base 110 HP as a bulky kind of wall.
Have a 203 (and still active) streak going in Super Singles. I'll post again once I lose, but I am super excited about this team and so am eager to write it up.
Garchomp @ Choice Band "Iskierka"
Trait: Sand Veil
Nature: Jolly (+Spd, -Spa)
-Fire Fang (did not use yet, though could be needed if I lose my other two pokes and so have to leave chomp in on a Skarmory)
-Swords Dance (Obviously did not use. This should probably be rock slide, but have not yet bothered switching it)
Suicune @ Lum Berry
Nature: Bold (+Def, - Att)
Ferrothorn @ Leftovers
Trait: Iron Barbs
Nature: Sassy (+SpD, -Spd)
Interestingly, this looks very much like my early Garchomp/Milotic/Scizor team that got me my first over 100 streak: a Choice Band Garchomp, a bulky water, and a steel. But my goodness is this team better, and far less vulnerable to bad luck.
Garchomp leads things off, and the raw power of his two STABs backed by a Choice Band mean he can OHKO a ton of things immediately, and 2HKO almost everything. However, despite this raw power, getting locked into a move can often be dangerous. Thus, this Garchomp much prefers to switch out rather than attack. Even if Chomp can OHKO the opponent's lead, if either of his teammates can safely switch in and set up, Garchomp will switch out.
Hierarchy of choices:
1. If Suicune can safely switch in and set up, switch to Suicune
2. If Ferrothorn can safely switch in and set up, switch to Ferrothorn
What makes Chomp so good here is that in the lead, Garchomp can handle most of the things that Suicune and Ferrothorn have difficulties switching into, such as Water Absorb Poliwrath and Dry Skin Toxicroak.
Substitute/Calm Mind Suicune is by far the best Pokemon I have ever used in the subway. Thanks are due to Chinese Dood for his discussion of why he used a water attack over an ice attack on his Suicune. I took his advice, and though I use Scald over Surf, mono water has been wonderful for me.
I loved Toxic stalling Milotic, but it had three main problems: 1. Vulnerability to untimely crits; 2. Vulnerability to status (Marvel Scale is nice, but missing out on two key Recovers in a row because of being fully paralyzed can be fatal); 3. Inability to take advantage of things it dominates; it can kill them, but can't set up and make the next poke easier to defeat.
Suicune avoids all of these problems. It can switch into and set up on a ton of things, has great protection against crits and status thanks to the combination of Substitute and Rest, and loses to very, very few things once it is fully set up.
Because of its high defenses, Suicune can switch into many neutral attacks quite safely. Furthermore, since Garchomp draws ice attacks, it often switches into a weak, not very effective Ice Beam. Once Suicune is in, most pokes only have one attack that can break its Substitutes. If it's a special attack, Suicune can usually Calm Mind once and then safely Sub, knowing that a non-crit won't break the Substitute. At this point, the battle becomes alternating Calm Minds, Substitutes, and Rests until Suicune is fully set up. If the one Sub-breaking attack is physical (Earthquake is the typical example) Suicune can Sub stall, letting the Sub be broken each time, Rest, wake immediately with Lum Berry and finish stalling the move out before needing to Rest again. Pressure is pure gold here, as limiting attacks to half their PP makes stalling them out much easier. At just 5 uses, for example, Earthquake can be stalled out before Suicune is forced to Rest a second time without Lum Berry to wake it. This wouldn't work for a 10 use Earthquake.
I don't think I'll ever play a stalling pokemon in the Subway again without Substitute. The move is that strong. Sub protects against critical hits and status, makes setting up a joke when the AI spams status moves into it, and is the key to easy sweeps after setting up. A +6/+6 Suicune is still vulnerable to a number of things. A +6/+6 Suicune behind a sub fears very little.
Scald is a great move, doing reasonable damage, providing added protection against freezes, and causing burns that pseudo-boost Suicune's physical defense and speed the process of defeating opposing stall pokemon. Once Suicune is set up (and sometimes even when it isn't), Scald handles most things that aren't immune to it. Naturally, that makes worry number one the pokemon with Water Absorb, Storm Drain, or Dry Skin. Thankfully, however, Suicune can stall most of these out, particularly with Pressure. For example, though an opposing Vaporean means the battle will take a long time, it also means a free set up for Suicune. Only water-immune boosting physical attackers and Taunters are really a problem, and Ferrothorn and Garchomp typically do well against these.
If I could, I'd probably use leftovers on Suicune, but Ferrothorn needs them much more. Lum Berry also is helpful in the early stages of setting up, or when stalling out a physical move, when Suicune needs to use an early Rest and wake up immediately. Lum also allows Suicune to switch into slower status using pokes, Lum Berry off the initial status, Substitute, and then laugh while the opponent spams useless status into the Sub. Without the berry, there'd be a risk of eating a Hypnosis or being Paralyzed for multiple turns in a row).
One last note: remember that weather does damage that is not stopped by a Substitute. Embarrassingly, early in my streak I once lost Suicune when I foolishly subbed all the way down, rather than just Resting earlier, and the opponent used Hail. Don't make the same mistake.
Ferrothorn does a nice job of filling the holes that Garchomp and Suicune don't cover. While Suicune loves setting up on special attackers, Ferrothorn does the same against many physical ones. After a few Curses, physical attacks (even fighting ones) do very little damage, while Gyro Ball hits back ridiculously hard. With Ferrothorn, the team has wonderful defensive synergy. Ferrothorn is strong against the dragon type attacks Chomp is weak against, and the grass and electric attacks Suicune dislikes. Suicune is strong against the ice attacks that destroy Garchomp and the fire attacks that fry Ferrothorn. Garchomp is strong against the fire attacks aimed at Ferrothorn and immune to the electric attacks that Suicune attracts. The one hole is fighting attacks, which Ferrothorn is weak to and neither of the others resist, but this can usually be worked around without too much trouble.
I love R Inanimate's set for Ferrothorn. Nothing is immune to Gyro Ball, and with Ferrothorn's miniscule speed (especially after a few Curses) it typically hits at max power. Even resisted, a 150 BP STAB backed by multiple Curse boosts does a lot of damage. Leech Seed both helps kill off opponents and provides much appreciated recovery, giving Ferrothorn the health it needs to curse up and continue setting up Substitutes as needed. It's a shame it doesn't work on grass pokes, but thankfully, Ferrothorn dominates most of these and can set up on them even without Leech Seed recovery. Curse is the key set up move, and pretty self explanatory. The synergy between the speed drop and Gyro ball is a nice bonus. Substitute is perhaps even more important to Ferrothorn than to Suicune, because with Ferrothorn's slow speed and lack of reliable recovery, there's a bunch of things that threaten it even at +6/+6. Substitute also protects against status, which Ferrothorn otherwise has no way to recover from. It's a small annoyance that contact attacks don't trigger Iron Barbs damage when Ferrothorn is behind a Sub, but not a big problem.
Because of Ferrothorn's slow speed, it's important to predict when its Sub is going to be broken, and resub on the predicted turn. Failure to do this leaves a one attack window where a critical hit could be disastrous. When Suicune is slower than the poke it is setting up on, such prediction is also useful, but thankfully, Suicune outspeeds a lot of things, making setting up much easier.
Boosting Water Absorbers, particularly those with strong fighting attacks, can be a problem for this team. If the wrong poke is in, Butterfly Dance Volcarona also can cause difficulties. Trainers with multiple possible versions of the same poke can be frustrating, since sometimes Suicune or Ferrothorn can easily switch in and set up on some variants but not others. Typically, against a lead of this sort, I'll untie this Gordian Knot by cutting through it with a Garchomp attack, and either net a quick KO, or know what I'm up against so I can choose the appropriate follow up poke and set up.
OHKO teams deserve special mention. One last beautiful feature of Substitute that I failed to mention earlier is the protection it provides against OHKOs. Suicune, in particular, can outspeed most of the OHKO pokes, which means it can safely replace its substitute whenever it is broken, stall out the 5 pp moves with ease thanks to Pressure, and then freely set up. Despite the fact that Suicune can dominate such pokes once in, it is at risk when it switches directly into such an attack. Accordingly, against Roughnecks (which typically load up on OHKO pokes) it is almost always best to either attack with Garchomp or switch to Ferrothorn, and wait to bring Suicune in for free after a KO. Ferrothorn doesn't outrun anything, so even though it has Substitute, unless it is actively spamming Sub, it risks losing its sub to a OHKO move and then dying to a second OHKO the next turn before it can set up a new Sub, so it's much more vulnerable than Suicune against Roughnecks. OHKO pokes that outspeed Suicune and Garchomp are even more of a threat, because they can potentially OHKO my whole team before anything acts. Thankfully, the most clear offender, Cryogonal 3, prefers to stick with Blizzard, so Ferrothorn can eat that damage and OHKO back with Gyro Ball.
This is somewhat longer than I originally intended, but hope it's helpful. If there's one lesson that I hope to pass on, it is to use Calm Mind Substitute mono-attacking Suicune. The poke is absolutely incredible in the subway, and you won't be disappointed!
Proof of streak still active at 203:
First, Adamant over Jolly on Starraptor worries me. You are going to be outsped by a lot of things and with Starraptor's limited bulk, that doesn't bode well. Likewise, I'm worried that Starraptor might not be bulky enough to get value out of Roost. Tailwind as a support move might be a better choice.
Second, you are very vulnerable to fast pokemon with both water and ice attacks. Starmie, wrecker of streaks, is most notable, but even Floatzel might cause you some problems. I think you might need to change out at least one of those for more complementary resistances.
EDIT: Just realized that Tailwind is a dream world move only, which means that getting it on a well EVed correct natured Starraptor would require C-Gear RNGing. Not fun. With Starraptor's bad move pool, Roost as filler makes a lot more sense. Heck, maybe even Quick Attack will provide occasional value. At least it gets STAB...
I just realized that Roost is a previous gen breeding move anyways, so I was thinking about Return as another coverage move.
With Jolly/Tailwind, I know he will get outsped by some serious threats, but even with a jolly nature, don't a lot of those already threats run a similar +Spe nature? And in my experience, Hydreigon outspeeds a lot of the AIs guys, without a +Spe nature and a base 98, 2 points lower than Staraptors. Does the difference with Staraptor make that much of a difference in a win or loss? Plus he is Intimidate not Reckless so he won't get that nice 20% damage boost :(
As for filling the gap as you suggest, what about switching Mamoswine with something like this:
Swampert @ Leftovers
Relaxed - Torrent
@BeastMode2010: If you are leading with Adamant Staraptor, I'd actually suggest a Choice Scarf set (with Return or Double-Edge > Roost). You will then not need to use max speed, so you can use some EVs for HP to somewhat compensate for brave bird (or potentially double-edge) recoil. I used one like that before recently which worked decently well. Mine was a Reckless one instead of intimidate though.
I do like the idea of a choice scarf set. Since I already have BB, I think I can I will go with Return over DE, because of the recoil and from what I've read Return deals around the same. If I had Reckless I would totally go DE tho, but our FOB doesn't have WiFi so can't tuck in no Pokemans. lol
Ok I'm ready to break my 3DS in half because of this thing:
832 | Donphan | Adamant | Quick Claw | Earthquake | Stone Edge | Seed Bomb | Fissure | Atk/SpD
Honestly I hear people carry on about Scarf Pinsir and its super-fast Guillotines, but in reality this thing is far more dangerous with its priority "100% accurate" Fissures (I mean, how often does Pinsir actually USE Guillotine?). I just lost a streak because of 2 consecutive Quick Claw activations, one of which lead to a Fissure KO. It ended up with just my Dragonite against a Hiker and his Rock Sliding pokemon.
This is the 5th streak I have lost to this thing in the last month >:(
Well at least this incident didn't occur really far along the streak...
Now I have that off my chest, I thought I'd show what I'm currently using:
Zoroark @ Focus Sash
Scizor @ Life Orb
Dragonite @ Leftovers
Zoroark is actually pretty fun to use, especially against Psychic types who never seem to get the hint when their STAB attacks don't work (allowing it to set up with Nasty Plot). I think Zoroark could have potential as a Nasty Plot lead if you have the right partner in back. I'm my case it mostly just Taunts and Mementos though. The Dragonite is Jumpman's and it has really been incredible, so props to him for coming up with it (I'm not using his EV spread though as I'm too lazy to retrain it).
I think this team can get far, as long as I never have to run into Donphan 4 as a lead ever again. I think from now on if I face Donphan as a lead and I can't determine the set (in this case it could have been any one of the 4), I'm just gonna Memento straight away.
Return is 153 after STAB and Double-Edge (assuming Intimidate) is 180 after STAB or 216 for reckless.
What matters though is that (and I'm just saying this from my experience, so maybe you won't feel the same) most of the time you'll be using one of your 3 other moves anyway. I.e. Brave Bird for the KO if super effective or if neutral vs something defensively weak, or Close Combat for the KO on super effective, or U-Turn when you know you cannot KO. Return (or even Double-Edge) will be rarely used simply because Flying's coverage is fairly similar to Normal. The only times you'll be using your normal move will be vs Electrics.
Return has high (but not guaranteed) chance to OHKO Jolteon (Double-Edge - Reckless or Intimidate - guarantees OHKO). Return has mediocre chance to OHKO Manectric while Double-Edge guarantees it. Return guarantees KO on Raichu. Other than that, Intimidate Double-Edge really wouldn't do much more than Return, and... Return will not really be getting that much used anyway, because even if both Return and Brave Bird are guaranteed OHKOs, you probably would be using Brave Bird so that the next incoming pokemon will (likely to be) hit harder, possibly OHKO'd whereas it otherwise wouldn't have been if the locked move was Return. And, if neither Brave Bird nor Return (or Close Combat) OHKOs, then you should be using U-Turn anyway instead of using Return and then die.
All that said, I don't know. Maybe Final Gambit is an ok replacement instead of having the normal move. Hah, sorry for rambling on. With Choice Band, there's a strong case for Quick Attack, but with Scarf, regardless of what it is, it's not going to be used that much.
I think that Aerial Ace could also be a reasonable option for the 4th slot. I know it's weak and you'll probably be using Brave Bird instead in pretty much every instance, but it can add insurance against evasion spammers. You probably wouldn't use it if they're just holding a Brightpowder (unless it's the last pokemon and it would guarantee a win or something), but if you get unlucky somehow and are forced to face a pokemon with +6 evasion, Aerial Ace can act as a good filler option in this unfortunate instance.
I'm going to play that now, I edit when I finish :)
I think against any electric user I would switch to swampert for the immunity for it, and unless they carry HP Grass I shouldn't have to worry too much about it. I had to rebreed my Staraptor for the new EVs...and I'm gonna try this spread:
The only thing that I can think of that carries Hidden Power is one of the Serperiors, so thankfully you won't have to worry about HP grass coming from an electric type at all.
Also that EV spread is a bit inefficient because you have 2 wasted EVs in Speed and HP. Assuming you have perfect IVs, you should transfer 2 of the Speed EVs to HP (124HP/252Att/128Spe gives the same speed stat as your spread and gives you one extra hit point).
EDIT: Actually, you could also transfer 2 EVs from HP to Speed. 120HP/252Att/132Spe gives you a bonus point in Speed compared to your spread.
rotom-w frequently runs hp grass now.
None of the opponents use Rotom-W in the subway...
Streak with Garchomp/Suicune/Ferrothorn is done at 249.
For reference, my team and its strategy are here:
Lost on Battle 250 to Clerk Elwin, with a team of:
I was too greedy, trying to switch around on Hydregion and try to get it to lower its special attack with Draco Meteors. An untimely burn on Garchomp from switching back into a Flamethrower aimed at Ferrothorn, coupled with multiple crits on Suicune led to my demise. Yes, there was bad luck, but better play would have avoided the problem.
I fully believe this team is capable of reaching 300, and plan to start a new streak with it, after perhaps dropping Suicune's HP EVs ever so slightly so I can increase speed by a point and avoid the irksome speed ties at 105. I can afford to drop HP by a point without weakening my subs, so the cost seems minimal.
ohmygosh i never realized this was a subway thread
So... i wanted to use marowak. yup.
so i came up with a team.
-taunt/drill peck/foul play
any blatant problems?
is murkrow bulky enough?
Prankser Murkrow will be able to tailwind and probably survive at least one hit, if that's what you were asking.
That team is extremely ice-weak though so you might want to rethink some things. Also, Tailwind only lasts a few turns. Plenty of teams (or pokemon) will be able to last through tailwind.
Hail, and more specifically Froslass and Glaceon, are some of the haxiest and most dangerous pokemon in the subway. They're the reason several great streaks have ended before they should have. I would recommend replacing something on your team with something capable of taking powerful Ice attacks and beating opposing Ice threats.
Marowak is strong enough to do some really good damage with, but his speed is really subpar and Tailwind doesn't really last that long.