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Black & White Battle Subway Records (now with gen. 4 records!)

Discussion in 'Orange Islands' started by Peterko, Mar 23, 2011.

  1. SA1TS

    SA1TS

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    Been theorymoning a bit... Whimsicott, TruAnt, Accupressure Toxicroak (Protect, Acc, Gunk Shot, Drain Punch @ Sash). Thoughts?
  2. NoCheese

    NoCheese It's not just a house...it's a maison!
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    It will be very slow alternating protect with accupressure, and with protect maxing at 16 pp, you risk the awkwardness of accupressure leaving attack underboosted sometimes. It will work, but it will be much slower and somewhat less consistent than whimsicott/durant/dragonite. I'd say it's probably about as consistamt as my Durant/cloyster/garchomp team, and that got over 500, but accupressure/protect alternation will test your patience.
  3. Pikiwyn

    Pikiwyn

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    @Little Green Yoda. For a decoy strategy there’s 3 things you need to take into consideration. The bait pokemon has to have low enough defences so that as many pokemon as possible have atleast one move to ohko it. Then you also need a partner that has high enough defences to be ohko’d by as little as possible. The moveset of the bait pokemon is pretty important, if you wanna go for an offensive set then Carvanha is pretty much all there is. Other that you need a support movepool. Ive spent a lot of time theorymoning this strategy and I’d say Pichu and Tyrogue (protect, helping hand,fake out, counter) are the best. Things like Smeargle and Sharpedo would seem like good options but they'r defenses are too high. There’s a bait pokemon that I’m doing pretty well with atm but I’d rather keep that for when I post my streak.
  4. SA1TS

    SA1TS

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    @NoCheese. I can't believe I hadn't considered the numbers. 21 turns for full Accupressure set-up & only 16PP Protect. FAIL. Thanks bro, back to the drawing board for me...
  5. Little Green Yoda

    Little Green Yoda

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    Smeargle (55/35/45) is too bulky to be a decoy? I guess my plans for Meditite (30/55/55) just went down the drain. :(
  6. Jumpman16

    Jumpman16 np: Michael Jackson - "Mon in the Mirror" (DW mix)
    is a Smogon IRC SOPis a Site Staff Alumnusis a Team Rater Alumnusis a Battle Server Admin Alumnusis a Researcher Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis an Administrator Alumnus

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    Wait, stay at that drawing board! This isn't a reason to abandon the strategy, since you have to be pretty unlucky to not be adequately boosted by the time the first poke faints. "Adequately boosted" needs to be defined as it relates to your purposes, though. What's the worst case scenario here? We're missing five boosts, of course, and what are the most important boosts that Toxicroak needs? I would say Speed is definitely most important, then either Defense or Special Defense. Split the difference and we're looking at no Speed boosts and only +4 Def and SpD.

    Think about that for a second, though. And think about it optimistically, as well. What are we really looking at? First of all, I would recommend using Cross Chop or DynamicPunch over Drain Punch in Toxicroak, since you're going to be boosting your accuracy before attacking anyway because you have to set up. I also recommend 252 Atk Adamant and 196 Speed EVs, the rest in HP. With this, the the worst case scenario I think you're envisioning, we have a 692 Atk EV Toxicroak with two 100% accurate, STAB, 100+ base power moves with fantastic side effects, at +6 attack, tripled Defenses that they'll only be able to hit a third of the time thanks to +6 Evasion.

    But that's not all. The foe poke isn't going to magically disappear after 16 turns of Protect. You're not tricking it, so you don't even have to worry about it running out of, like, Stone Edge PP or something and Struggling off your screen. You're going to still be able to Accupressure if you have to, which will only be the case if you don't ever boost Speed in 16 turns. The chance of not boosting Speed once in 16 turns is a mere 0.7519% chance. I like my chances there, especially considering that when I Acupressure next, that chance is merely 0.3%, and then 0.0752% on my 18th Acupressure. That's having to risk two turns with super Evasion and either +4 or +6 Def/SpD (one will be boosted on turn 17 and the other on turn 18) and probably a Sash.

    Turn 19 of course you'd be guaranteed to boost Speed if it actually came down to that, and then would be fully set up. With 196 Speed EVs you're guaranteed to outspeed everything in the Subway after one sharp boost which is why I've suggested that EV Spread...it's not like you really need Defenses on your Protect sweeper on a TruAnt team. But do you see how extreme this is? 0.75% chance you don't boost Speed once in 16 turns is astoundingly low, and with the safety net that all your other boosts you're really not in any real danger at all.

    As I said for my DRAPULA back in the days where we couldn't Acupressure behind a Sub, I only needed about 12 sharp boosts: one in Speed, one in Accuracy, and basically two each in Attack, Defense, SpD and Evasion, with two in Attack to make up for not having all my Defensive boosts. The main issue, of course, is paying attention to all these boosts and the amount of time they take anyway, especially with having to Protect every other turn as well. I haven't used Drapion in a serious capacity when I realized it wasn't as foolproof as it was in DP even with the Sub-Ace nerf gone, since stuff like Scrafty, WW Skarmory, and the Musketeers were still pains even with a setup Drapion. Add to that the 20+ turns I needed to get set up (with Subs in there) and it just very literally was and is not worth it when there are "Bullet Train" teams like Carl's (his term) and Peterko's and mine that can win in 4-6 turns a good out of three times and still be incredibly reliable about 30% of the balance of the battles. Time remains the great equalizer in the Subway, and only because the Subway2 is identical to the Subway would I even entertain the though of giving Drapion another shot (with Dragonite because they have great synergy as I may have mentioned before).
  7. Pikiwyn

    Pikiwyn

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    @Little Green Yoda. It depends on the partner though. If your partner doesn't mind taking a non-lethal hit every now and then, then a pokemon with higher defenses can be used. But if you use Entei Eruption is too reliant on having high HP.
  8. SA1TS

    SA1TS

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    A few scenarios went through my head (taking into account the Subway hax of course...) and I could just picture 'Croak being at only +2 Atk and +0 Spe while facing <insert random mon> which proceeds to destroy my poor 'Croak with a crit Aerial Ace. I suppose the Subway has a way of making people pessimistic haha..

    That EV spread is spot-on, I was thinking slightly less Speed but your logic behind 196 makes complete sense. I've contemplated using DynamicPunch instead of Drain Punch but one thing swayed me- the Sash. If I'm correct in saying so, even if 'Croak has taken some damage but his Sash hasn't been activated Drain Punch can heal him back to full health thereby regaining the benefit of the Sash. This would give me peace of mind should I be in the situation where I need to try boost after using all the Protect PP. I figured GS would act as the main form of attack with DP being used to take care of Steels and Rock/Grounds.

    I'd be interested to see how TruAnt/DRAPULA/Saffron would work out. As you say, there's great synergy and you've proven in the past how successful both sweepers are individually.

    I've been reluctant to get going with this team until I was convinced of its viability due to the time it would take for me to breed, train, and in TruAnts case trade, for the necessary pokes (and dealing with the absolute age it takes to set-up Acc). After thinking on the minuscule 0.75% chance of a complete and utter f@#% up you pointed out though, I think I'm going to give it a shot- thanks for the input!
  9. Professor Shroomish

    Professor Shroomish

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    We're allowed to use Blaziken and Excadrill in our sweeps here, right?
  10. Jumpman16

    Jumpman16 np: Michael Jackson - "Mon in the Mirror" (DW mix)
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    of course, no poke that the game doesn't physically ban is off limits
  11. Hozu

    Hozu RNGenius
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    B/W2 singles

    410 wins this time. Team info, enemy team info. Battle vid #51-76533-03725 is where I lost. Guts Machamp OHKO'd Durant, while an untimely crit from Lucario's Shadow Ball ended Latias early. Needed that second CM so Sub could live after a Shadow Ball, then I could setup.
  12. NoCheese

    NoCheese It's not just a house...it's a maison!
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    Might Focus Sash be a better choice than the Wide Lens on Cloyster? At +6, Cloyster ends up using Icicle Spear a LOT more than Rock Blast (as it still OHKOs most things that resist it), so in many battles, the Lens doesn't really help you, while the "extra life" from the sash proves highly relevant, particularly given your lowered defenses from Shell Smashing. Plus, in "last enemy pokemon" situations, Sash allows you to safely go for a 100% 2HKO with Icicle Spear on even bulky resisters, meaning you don't need to use Rock Blast as much as you do when Lens is equipped and you might die to the counter attack if the first attack doesn't OHKO. Finally, Sash can let you play a more traditional Peterko style "Shell Smash once then sweep" game in the uncommon situation where Cloyster has to come in on an enemy that has not been Entrained.

    Also note that even with the Lens, you have a 1% chance of missing once with Rock Blast, which is equal to the 1% chance you have of missing twice in a row without it (with the Sash keeping you alive after the first miss).
  13. Hozu

    Hozu RNGenius
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    Hm... To be fair even if Cloyster had a Sash I would have lost that battle since it wouldn't have been able to OHKO Lucario. I'll think about it if I decide to try again.
  14. atsync

    atsync Where the "intelligence" of TRAINERS is put to the test!
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    It's been a few months since I posted in this thread. I have been following it though!

    I played subway for the first time in a while recently. First thing I did was give Sawk some elemental punches to make Flying types more managable! That didn't affect the team too much and it's still fun to use. I tried a few streaks and got 70+ each time but lost soon after for various reasons. Might try it again some time.

    But for now I'm sitting at 70 wins with this doubles team:

    Landorus-T @ Choice Scarf

    Earthquake
    Superpower
    Rock Slide
    U-turn

    Heatran @ Air Balloon

    Flamethrower
    Flash Cannon
    Taunt
    Protect

    Rotom-W @ Wide Lens

    Thunderbolt
    Hydro Pump
    Hidden Power (Grass)
    Protect

    Hydreigon @ Life Orb

    Dragon Pulse
    Dark Pulse
    Flamethrower
    Protect

    I've been trying to get a few teams based around Landorus-T Earthquake spam to work. I tried a few things, starting with Azelf as a fellow lead. That didn't work so well though. Azelf just didn't cut it. As a joke I even tried an Ice Gem Cryogonal! It actually worked better than you might think. Cryogonal's Ice STAB was helpful and with Protect it could lure pokemon into trying to hit its lousy physical defense only to be screwed over. Plus it has Levitate. However I ended up getting destroyed by a Trick Room team during my 4th set of 7 battles and I knew there was no way I was going to stick with Cryogonal long term (if it could just learn Taunt...).

    So I decided to try Air Balloon Heatran and it's been working quite well. Heatran is good because it handles most Ice types with ease, which is crucial for Landorus-T. This does leaves me sorely weak to Water, so I put Rotom-W in as a back-up, and Hydreigon was kinda just tacked on because it was something else that I had on me at the time that had Levitate and was resistant to water, and they've been working fine. Overall the team is still weak to Water/Ice in general though, and Fishermen and Parasol Ladies are awful to face up against (proof: 71-58348-55120) but those trainers are thankfully rare compared to Black Belts/Battle Girls and Psychics (at least in my experience they are).

    I think this still needs a bit of work. Still not sure about Flash Cannon on Heatran as the coverage with Flamethrower isn't great (walled by Waters and Fires) but I like the solid power and neutral coverage it has, and I'm considering changing Rotom-W's EV spread from the max Speed/max Sp. Att (with Modest) I have now to a bulkier slower spread to make switching in easier. I doubt I'll change anything before I lose though. I hate changing things partway through because I'm afraid I'll lose a streak because of it!

    Anyway that's what I'm up to for now so I'll see how this goes. Good luck to everyone else with their attempts.
  15. birdboy2000

    birdboy2000

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    Still using my Salamence/Garchomp/Articuno team, got up to 78 at best (not much of an improvement) but I've run into one big problem called Starmie. It's got the bulk to take an outrage and hits everyone on my team really hard - I lose at least one pokemon every time I face it and suffer significant damage on another.

    Metagross can also be troublesome, but only if it runs into Salamence first - between Magnet Rise and Occa Berry it's hard to take down, it's immune to intimidate, and you don't want to face three turns of Meteor Mash. Garchomp gets STAB Earthquake before it can magnet rise and Articuno can just mind reader/sheer cold - I don't think the Subway carries the meteor mash/bullet punch version.

    I'm thinking I should switch out Salamence - yeah, it covers a ton of pokemon, but does so in the exact same way as Garchomp, and has the same weaknesses. But what should I replace it with?
  16. isshoni

    isshoni

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    People have been using Toxicroak in double rain teams with great success so I was thinking what else could pull a similar role and came up with this.

    [​IMG]
    Cacturne
    Item: Focus Sash
    Ability: Water Absorb
    Nature: Quiet
    IVs: 31/31/31/31/31/30 or 31/31/31/30/30/30
    EVs: Att 252, Sp. Att 252, Sp. Def 4
    Stats: 145/167/80/183/81/67
    - Giga Drain
    - Sucker Punch
    - Drain Punch
    - HP Ice/Flying/Rock

    I figured it could lead with Specs Politoed spamming Surfs and just basically act just like Toxicroak: almost die, hit super hard, recover hp and come back to full health. What I'm not so sure about is having 6 weaknesses as Toxicroak only has 3. They both have 7 immunities and resistances though. I've no idea which HP to pick as they all have their ups and downs, some being more noticeable than others.

    Ice covers dragons, flyers and fellow grasses who carry poison stabs, flying is nice for fighting types, bugs and also fellow grasses, and finally rock deals with flyers, bugs, fires and ice types. I think it's pretty much a choice between ice and flying. Having SE hits on dragons and fighting types is equally attractive and I just don't know which to choose as they are the two types I oftenmost have trouble with. Any ideas would be appreciated!




    Another Pokémon I'd love to hear some feedback on is this guy:

    [​IMG]
    Golbat
    Item: Eviolite
    Ability: Infiltrator
    Nature: Careful
    IVs: 31/31/31/xx/31/31
    EVs: HP 252, Sp. Def 252, Spd 4
    Stats: 182/100/135(90)/xx/208(139)/111
    - Curse
    - Roost
    - Super Fang/Poison Fang/Brave Bird/anything
    - Super Fang/Poison Fang/Brave Bird/anything

    I had a little test run with him on Pokémon Online and caught surprisingly many people off guard. He has solid defenses, a handy 4x resistance to fighting type moves, an immunity to poison, a boosting move and a recovery move. He, however, suffers greatly from four moveslot syndrome as he would need all three attacking moves listed.

    Super Fang is obviously good for making a huge dent on anything that resists everything or has massive defense boosts, Poison Fang is like a weaker Scald with a 30% chance of badly poisoning the target which is essential for stalling and finally Brave Bird which turned out to be extremely useful in hitting super super hard after just two or three boosts. Given the recoil is rather counter-productive towards the wallish approach of this set, but without lefties Golbat's not gonna be stalling out the whole world so it needs to go out with a bang.

    As I said, any thoughts or ideas would be greatly appreciated! Also ideas about suitable teammates would be nice.
  17. NoCheese

    NoCheese It's not just a house...it's a maison!
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    Yup, Starmie is a subway beast. Timid King's Rock SPIT (Surf, Psychic, Ice Beam, Thunderbolt) Starmie is one of those huge threats you definitely need to be able to handle, and I agree that the shared weaknesses on Mence and Chomp leave you very vulnerable.

    Ideally, for a Salamence replacement you want something that can resist Chomp's Dragon and Ice weaknesses (neither of which Articuno resists), and Articuno's Steel weakness (which unlike Articuno's other weaknesses, is not resisted by Garchomp). You also want to be able to switch into SPIT Starmie and KO back.

    Scizor can do all of these jobs, and can also sometimes Swords Dance up and do a bit of sweeping on its own, but has to be careful about an untimely flinch from Starmie's King's Rock. Unfortunately, because of that King's Rock, few things can switch into and beat SPIT Starmie 100% of the time, but Scizor gives you very good odds, so would be my initial recommendation.

    If you want a clean revenge kill on Starmie, I did some theorymoning earlier and found that Modest max Special Attack Choice Scarf Latios can just barely guarantee the OHKO with Thunderbolt on SPIT Starmie. It won't cover your other weaknesses, but does a beautiful job of outrunning and revenging a bunch of big subway threats besides Starmie (Choice Scarf Garchomp, for example), so is definitely worth considering. I've long wanted to give it a try, but have never ended up using it, so would be happy indeed if it can help you get a good streak. Also note that you can even use Scarf Latios as hybrid revenge killer/Tricker, though that would probably require more team modification, as Latios's Trick will lock a lot of pokes into Ice or Dragon attacks, which Chomp can't really set up on.

    Good luck!
  18. birdboy2000

    birdboy2000

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    Thanks for the advice! I had already early caught my Latios for pokedex data (and paying little attention to nature) and I wound up with Rash - not optimal, but it does have a special attack boost, so I'll try it out first. (That and I like it more than Scizor as a pokemon.)
  19. NoCheese

    NoCheese It's not just a house...it's a maison!
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    Just note that if you don't have 31 as your IV in special attack, the KO on Starmie from Modest (or in your case, Rash) Scarf Latios's Thunderbolt is not guaranteed. In that case, Draco Meteor should still get you the OHKO, but has that pesky 10% miss chance.
  20. NoCheese

    NoCheese It's not just a house...it's a maison!
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    R Inanimate's Absorb Bulb Swift Swim Ludicolo makes a great partner for lead Drizzle Politoed as well. If Politoed opens with Surf, Ludicolo gets a free +1 Special Attack boost while taking very little damage due to its 4x resistance to Water. Coupled with Swift Swim, it can then outrun and KO a lot of threats.
  21. birdboy2000

    birdboy2000

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    Oh well. Good to know.
  22. icu812

    icu812

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    Battle Subway Double Record: 644


    Smeargle @ Focus Sash
    Ability: Technician
    Jolly (+Spe, -SpA)
    IVs: 0/31/0/0/0/31
    EVs: 255 Spe, 255 Atk
    - Fake Out
    - Protect
    - Helping Hand
    - Spore


    Blastoise @ Choice Specs
    Ability: Torrent
    Timid (+Spe, -Atk)
    IVs: 31/2/31/30/31/31
    EVs: 6 Hp, 248 SpA, 4SpD, 252 Spe
    - Water Spout
    - Scald
    - Ice Beam
    - Hidden Power (Grass)


    Latios @ Life Orb
    Ability: Levitate
    Timid (+Spe, -Atk)
    IVs: 31/0/31/31/31/31
    EVs: 6 Hp, 252 SpA, 252 Spe
    - Dragon Pulse
    - Psyshock
    - Thunderbolt
    - Protect


    Metagross @ Steel Gem
    Ability: Clear Body
    Adamant (+Atk, -SpA)
    IVs: 31/31/31/31/xx/31
    EVs: 6 Hp, 252 Atk, 252 Spe
    - Bullet Punch
    - Iron Head
    - Earthquake
    - Ice Punch


    [​IMG]

    Lvl 1 Endeavor is dead but the AI is still dumb. Smeargle is interchangeable with anything squishy that learns Fake Out/Protect/Helping Hand/Filler, the other three big blue 155hp pokemon are the heart of the team.

    Simple concept, abuse AI targeting KO-able Pokemon to let Blastoise kill everything with Water Spout. Blastoise has better typing+defenses for Water Spout abuse. Eruption spam fire types annoyingly vulnerable to Earthquake/Rock Slide. Also Metagross replacements for Eruption teams are disappointing. Smeargle is the best bait out of over a dozen tried, honorable mention to Lightningrod Pichu/Pikachu. Latios and Metagross are the best all-around doubles subway Pokémon. Movesets are doubles standards. Steel gem is great for revenge kills, Air Balloon really isn't needed.

    Legends, ice, electric/steel, rain dance, and trick room are troublesome. Water absorb and dry skin are a pain.

    Best streak ended over 600 wins again due to gameboy power failure. Still want to get four digits and think this team can get there.



    Prompted to post by the bait pokemon discussion. Options examined, among others:

    Protect->Dive/Dig: Carvanha, Sharpedo, Ninjask (Earthquake immune!)
    Fake Out->Protect: Pichu, Pikachu, Makuhita, Tyrogue, Chimchar, Sableye
    Protect +Trick Room: Trapinch, Solosis, Duosion

    Basically, anything on this list: http://veekun.com/dex/pokemon/search?move=Protect&move=Fake+Out&move=%40us%2Cmove%3AHelping+Hand&move= with Protect/Fake Out/Helping hand is pretty good. Smeargle's biggest flaws: only 75 base speed and Normal typing means Froslass goes with Blizzard over Shadow Ball.
  23. atsync

    atsync Where the "intelligence" of TRAINERS is put to the test!
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    Wow I just got completely destroyed by an Abomasnow + Glaceon combo which I guess was going to happen eventually but it still hurts. I got 112 wins.

    [​IMG]

    Landorus-T @ Choice Scarf
    Jolly
    ivs: 31/31/31/x/31/31
    evs: 6/252/4/0/12/236
    stats: 165/197/111/x/102/155
    Intimidate

    Earthquake
    Superpower
    Rock Slide
    U-turn

    [​IMG]
    Heatran @ Air Balloon
    Timid
    ivs: 31/x/31/31/31/31
    evs: 6/0/0/252/0/252
    stats: 167/89/126/182/126/141
    Flash Fire

    Flamethrower
    Flash Cannon
    Taunt
    Protect

    [​IMG]
    Rotom-W @ Wide Lens
    Modest
    ivs: 31/30/31/30/31/31
    evs: 6/0/4/248/0/252
    stats: 125/76/128/171/127/138
    Levitate

    Thunderbolt
    Hydro Pump
    Hidden Power [Grass]
    Protect

    [​IMG]
    Hydreigon @ Life Orb
    Timid
    ivs: 31/x/31/31/31/31
    evs: 6/0/0/252/0/252
    stats: 168/x/110/177/110/165
    Levitate

    Dragon Pulse
    Dark Pulse
    Flamethrower
    Protect

    How I lost (35-31885-04074)

    Basically, a Janitor (i.e. not an Ice Worker) pulled Abomasnow and Glaceon leads. First turn Glaceon activates Quick Claw before Landorus-T can U-turn out and Landorus goes down (to an unnecessary crit). Glaceon avoids Flamethrower and Heatran is promptly frozen by Abomasnow. Next turn, Glaceon gets another Quick Claw activation (Helping Hand), Rotom-W lands Hydro Pump and Heatran dies to Focus Blast. Finally, Glaceon gets ANOTHER Quick Claw activation to kill Hydreigon, Rotom-W finally kills Glaceon but Abomasnow finishes off Rotom-W.

    That last Quick Claw activation is particularly annoying because if it didn't happen then Rotom-W would have KOed Glaceon and Hydreigon had Flamethrower to kill Abomasnow (assuming it wasn't the Focus Sash one). The back-ups were Togekiss and Cresselia who are perfectly beatable with Rotom-W and Hydreigon. There was nothing I could do though. 3 consecutive Quick Claw activations (2 of which were important), a crit (again, unnecessary but still noted), a Snow Cloak miss and a freeze on my best answer to the combo is too much to handle...
  24. Level 51

    Level 51 getting worse at mons day by day
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    Just wondering, atsync: with the newly released BW2 (which you obviously have), Heatran and Hydreigon can have Heat Wave, which is on average superior to Flamethrower in Doubles. Is there any reason for you not making use of it besides the hax involved with the 90% accuracy?
  25. atsync

    atsync Where the "intelligence" of TRAINERS is put to the test!
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    I probably would have lost sooner if I'd used Heat Wave, knowing my luck.

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