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Black & White Battle Subway Records (now with gen. 4 records!)

Discussion in 'Orange Islands' started by Peterko, Mar 23, 2011.

  1. Jokethe1

    Jokethe1

    Joined:
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    Just a few questions about your Stoutland, Volcorona, Dragonite team. How would you handle against Trick Pokes (Latios/Latias)?. Do you use SandAttack or Flash on them? I'm asking that because if you face a Latias/Latios and you don't know the set of them do you use Flash do get more misses i.e. against the physical ones or Snarl for the special ones? What would be your oppinion in that situation? I know the streak is a while ago but I was just thinking about these Pokes.
  2. Chinese Dood

    Chinese Dood

    Joined:
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    I don't think I've ever had problems with Latias/Latios. For what I know (i.e. if I were using that team today), I most likely would Twave. Then switch if it used Trick (likely switching to Volcarona). If it used Draco Meteor instead, I'd just let my puppy faint and either Volcarona or Dragonite will be at to set up after Lati@s gets itself to -4 and then -6.

    If it tricks and I switched to Volcarona, then I think I probably try to set up with Volcarona (sub first). Lati@s really can't do anything scary to Volcarona (other than KOing is I mean, as in... it cannot set up because it has no set up moves). If Volcarona faints, then I get Stoutland back in to Sand Attack, and when opponent has run out of Draco Meteor PPs (or when Stoutland faints). I switch back in Dragonite to set up. Alternatively, I do it the other way, let Dragonite faint to have Volcarona set up. Volcarona would be easier to safer to set up here, just because of QD's increasing Sp Def and also Rest not caring about potential Tbolt paralyses from switching in.

    This is pretty much the same with all Trick pokemon I think. Always Twave if opponent is faster. If I get locked into a move, then switch and try to get Stoutland back in to either Charm (Physical Attacker) or Snarl/Sand Attack (Special Attacker). I opponent is somehow not even faster than Stoutland with a choice item, then still Twave, followed by locking yourself into Charm/Snarl/Sand Attack... so that's even better not having to be locked into Twave of course.

    You are correct about Sand Attack though. If I do not know whether opponent is physical or special, after Twave, I would usually sand attack. I think there are some exceptions like Dragonite, where I'd always charm regardless, just because the special version is not hard to deal with at all (whereas the CB one is annoying).

    I think I had much bigger problems with Rampardos than Lati@s with this team, especially the Choice Scarf one, where it kills itself with Head Smash and thus would never allow Dragonite to set up more than a +3/+3 or so (more likely a +2/+2 or so I think). I Twave, Charm, faint, and then Dragonite Subs til Rampardos loses the last Head Smash PPs, and then set up on struggles, but only 1 or 2 struggles to work off of because of Head Smash recoils... eek.
  3. Jokethe1

    Jokethe1

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    Thanks! Very interesting about Rampardos which I forgot even more with MoldBreaker which ignores MultiScale. If we 're takling about "problems" you've said that ClearBody is a danger for your team but you're able to handle almost every ClearBody Poke. Only Regirock can be a danger because of its Rock moves which hurts your Pokes a lot.
  4. Chinese Dood

    Chinese Dood

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    Yeah, you're right about Regirock. I think the Careful Leftovers Regirock one is pretty much autoloss for my team. The others I can still maybe stall out PP and set up on full paralysis turns (which Dragonite is actually pretty good at doing). It's certainly a reason why I think suicune is overall a better partner with Dragonite than Volcarona I guess.

    In general though that Scarf Rampardos really makes things difficult because most of the time it will be head smashing killing itself and not letting you set up.

    I haven't used Stoutland in so long now, even though I think it is still one of the best straight up cripplers, with Twave, having Intimidate and then access to lowering stats on both spectrums, Snarl also by-passing taunt, and Flash sort of rounding things out. And of course the decent bulk it possesses.

    EDIT: From what I remember though, the AI is fairly stupid when using the Curse Regirock. When facing Dragonite, it'd just Sandstorm whenever sand is not up, and then it'd only curse 3 or so times and then start attacking with Rockslide. Dragonite is actually sometimes able to stall out those rockslides, and then set up on drain punches. Or just sub-roost stall enough to PP stall it out of attacking PPs and then switch Volcarona in to set up as it uses its last curses and maybe sandstorms. Now, I sort of remember that team actually having fought said Curse Regirock and that was what happened. (Dragonite sub-roost PP stallling Paralyzed Regirock out of attacking moves, and then get Volcarona to set up.)
    Last edited: Aug 5, 2013
  5. GG Unit

    GG Unit

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2008
    Messages:
    205
    Here's what I've been going with. Help me figure out if I should scrap the team or if I've just been running into some terrible luck.

    Whimsicott, Bold @Focus sash
    252 Def / 252 SDef / 4 HP
    Prankster
    -Worry Seed
    -Charm
    -Taunt
    -Memento

    Sableye, Careful @ Lagging Tail
    252 HP / 252 Sdef / 4 Def
    Prankster
    -Trick
    -Flash
    -Snarl
    -Taunt

    Glalie, Timid @ Leftovers
    252 Spe / 172 HP / 4 SpA / 76 Def
    Moody
    -Sub
    -Protect
    -Taunt
    -Frost Breath

    Pretty standard Whimsicott. Worry Seed obviously helps against Clear Body/Hyper Cutter/Defiant Pokes, but it sees other uses as well. I probably use it most often against Pressure leads. For example, I'd rather set up against a -2 Weavile with Insomnia than a -4 one with Pressure since Glalie can spam Taunt twice as often to get more boosts against its crippled opponent. I'll use it on some of the Thick Fat/Ice Body Pokemon Ice Workers lead with, since Glalie wants to have as many Frost Breath PP remaining as possible to take on the remaining two opponents.

    I've really liked Sableye as a crippler. Tricking a Lagging Tail is almost like combining Tricking a Scarf + Thunder Waving into one turn. You can get rid of beneficial items (sometimes I like to let something nonthreatening keep its Leftovers/Sitrus Berry so it can Struggle a few more turns against Glalie) AND you don't have to worry about the opponent getting locked into a nonattacking move and switching out. Thanks to Lagging Tail, Glalie can set up without too much of a problem against leads like Blaziken 4 which you'd think would be able to lol its way through my team with Flame Charge + Flare Blitz. Having Taunt on all three members also mitigates the main disadvantage of not being able to lock something into an attacking move - the potential for something to set up alongside your sweeper.

    The Careful nature is so it doesn't accidentally kill anything with Snarl (a good decision, if I say so myself - I once got a crit on SPIT Starmie that took it pretty far into the red zone). If Sableye learned Memento, I'd put it over Snarl in a heartbeat; there have been 20-25 times in 300+ battles where I've had to bring Glalie directly in on an attack because a -6 accuracy opponent can't KO Sableye, and I've suffered 5 critical hits (actual probability of hitting and critting with a 100% accurate move at -6 Accuracy= 2.08%).

    Those kind of odds are reason enough to go with Dragonite over Glalie for the anti-hax insurance Multiscale provides, but one look at the leaderboard tells me I'm preaching to the choir when I say that. Glalie does have some nice advantages, such as the accuracy boosts that render Brightpowder/Lax Incense useless and the ability to Taunt a 2nd Pokemon that could otherwise take a hit and Roar/Whirlwind you out (without even having to rely on it missing). If the lead doesn't have VoltTurn or Explosion, Glalie will almost always KOthe first Pokemon while at full health, behind a sub, and with 30+ turns of Moody boosts. There are even some Pokemon I thought would be problems to face in the 2/3 slot that have been non issues. It turns out that AI has such a massive hard-on for using moves like Bulldoze, Low Sweep and Icy Wind that Terrakion 4, despite having 2 super effective STAB moves against Glalie, one of which conveniently ignores the Defense and Evasion boosts I've accrued, used Bulldoze against my Sub - and missed - as I 2HKOed it. I've also seen the Life Orb Sawk use Bulldoze, which didn't break the Sub, rather than Close Combat or Stone Edge.

    The main problem, of course, is which stats get boosted. Some of the hax I've gotten from Moody has to be even less likely than having Gliscor go 4/4 on Guillotines or something like that.

    In five runs I've beaten the Subway Boss each time, but haven't gotten past 91. My five losses:

    1. vs. Depot Agent Ramses - W vs. Zebstrika (air balloon, set 3), Charm/Flame Charge, Charm/FC crit, W under 25% health, switch to Sableye/FC, Taunted and flashed for 3-4 turns hoping it would Volt Switch, which it eventually did did to Electrode. Taunt/can't Rain Dance (set 4. only 10 attacking PP, plus it has taunt. shit) Trick/Thunder hits, Flash/Thunder hits, Sableye KOed, Taunt wears off. switch to Whimsicott, Memento/Rain Dance (could've Taunted, but didn't want to risk not getting any SpA drops off). With Glalie, I don't remember the specifics but I Subbed/Protected until the rain ran out then Taunted without a Sub because I knew it would try to Rain Dance again.

    By that time I had gotten a Sp. Def boost, so -2 Thunder wasn't taking out my Sub in one hit. From there, I was in a decent position where I could try to keep Electrode alive for as long as possible by Taunting and Protecting as it struggled, but I got an accuracy drop pretty early, and something like this happened around Glalie's 10th turn: Taunt missed/Taunt missed, Protect/Taunt, Taunt missed/Taunt hits. 2HKOed Electrode with Frost Breath, and got a SpA boost the turn I knocked it out. Zebstrika comes back in on the last turn of taunt, I'm still slow, and it breaks my Sub with Flame Charge as I OHKO with Frost Breath. In comes Klinklang. Sub/TWave fails (set 1), Protect/Gear Grind, Ice Breath (going to be a 3HKO)/Gear Grind (2nd hit breaks the Sub). The next few turns I don't remember precisely, but I was Sub/Protecting while hovering at around 75% health thanks to either Gear Grind missing or getting TWaved while I had a Sub up. Then I used Frost Breath, Klinklang did something that resulted in me still having the Sub, but my Speed dropped, so I was now slower. Protect, didn't get a Speed boost. So I say "screw it" and choose Frost Breath to deal the finishing blow:
    "The foe's Klinklang used Gear Grind. A critical hit! Glalie's substitute faded... A critical hit! Glalie fainted."
    Odds of back-to-back crits = 0.4% I also had some evasion boosts after the 20 or so turns Glalie was out there, so it's even less likely than that. It also helped that I was at -1 Speed after 20+ turns against one of 2 Pokemon sets in the entire Subway that A) has a multi-hit move and B) resists Ice.

    2. vs. don't remember - leads with Hariyama (knew it was the Belly Drum one because of the trainer) Taunt/can't Drum, Charm/Ice Punch, Charm/Ice Punch freezes, Taunt wears off, GG pretty much. Switched to Sableye/Belly Drum, Flash/Ice Punch KOed. Tried to charm but Whimsicott stayed frozen, Ice Punch.

    Then, just to mess with me, it exclusively tried to use Brick Break instead of putting me out of my misery with a +6 Bullet Punch. I Sub/Protect stalled it out of Brick Breaks - unfortunately it never missed because I got evasion drops right away to counteract the -1 Accuracy Hariyama had. So then Glalie is at just under 25% health after Protecting, Hariyama finally Bullet Punches - and I survive with <2 HP (so I was +6 Defense and got a beneficial damage roll). I Frost Breath and activate the Sitrus (did enough to 2HKO through Sitrus, so Hariyama wasn't Thick Fat and I was at +5 or +6 Special Attack). Next turn, I protect and finally get an Evasion boost! Then,
    "The foe's Hariyama used Bullet Punch.. Glalie avoided the attack! Glalie used Frost Breath.. The foe's Hariyama avoided the attack!"

    I Protected once more to try to nab another evasion boost and then went for the Frost Breath, but this time Bullet Punch hit and KOed. So yeah, that was pretty much decided by Ice Punch freezing on the turn Taunt wore out. If Ice Punch had "only" crit instead of frozen, I could've brought in Sableye to Taunt and hopefully Flash a few times before dying. Not ideal, but even if Hariyama eventually got a Belly Drum off, it might've missed a few times while Glalie was stalling it out of Brick Break PP. I've fully set up Glalie against a lead King's Rock Dragon Dance Tyranitar, so it's not like it needs a ridiculous amount of support.

    3. vs. a Psychic - Whimsicott/Claydol (set one, with explosion. gulp) Charm/Zen Headbutt (okay, I can do this! one more Charm, and then I'll switch in Sableye. It'll actually outdamage a -4 Claydol and Snarl it to death, and then I can at least Trick or Flash the 2nd Pokemon before dying. Then Whimsicott can do its thing. Setting up on a -2/-2 Pokemon holding a Lagging Tail is a piece of cake for Glalie.) Except the -4 Claydol takes out Whimsicott with a critical hit Explosion. Send out Sableye, the opponent sends out Exeggutor. So in other words, an opponent with 25 Pokemon to choose from sends out the only two that know Explosion first and second. Flash/Trick Room, Trick/Wood Hammer, Flash/Wood Hammer KOs. Glalie comes in. Sub/Wood Hammer breaks it, Protect/Explosion.

    In comes the max HP, max Special Defense Slowking. I used Protect out of habit because I saw Glalie's sprite at less than full health. 99.9 percent of the time, seeing Glalie in that situation means the opponent broke its Sub the previous turn, in which case I Protect to get Leftovers recovery + a boost. Of course, I had used Protect the turn before, it failed this time, and Slowking Surfed me down below 25% (I was at -1 Special Defense). Trick Room ran out, and I Taunted the predicted Trick Room, then Protected the next turn to have enough HP to make a Sub. I stayed alive a little longer, but I wasn't getting any of the Evasion/Special Defense boosts I would've needed to make a Sub that could stand up to more than one Surf/Psychic, plus Frost Breath wasn't going to be doing anything to Slowking any time soon. Still, I don't know what any Trick team could've done differently in that scenario (Explosion crits on the exact turn it needs to, the first two mons are Exploders).

    4. vs. Fisherman Humfrey - He leads with Poliwrath, which I find to be the one with Work Up after turn 1. I'm able to cripple it and have a pretty routine setup with Glalie. Thanks to Taunt, I'm able to keep Poliwrath's attacking stats low enough so it can't break my Sub. I run it out of attacking PP and it's Struggling itself to death. I used my first PP of Frost Breath to knock it out rather than risk it critting with Struggle and leaving me without a Sub. I could have messed around with Sub + Protect more and let it repeatedly use Work Up before killing it, but I was right where I wanted to be in terms of PP - 8 Taunts left and about 10 each of Sub + Protect , so I had gotten over 30 turns worth of boosts.

    Next up is Lapras. Blah, but I had a decent chance of running into a 4x Ice resist. I decide to Taunt it first turn because I don't want it Rain Dancing and setting up never-miss Thunders, and if it's the other one with Mystic Water, I can just stall it out of Surf PP, and then it can't do anything to me. So Lapras Surfs, breaks the Sub, and I Taunt. Yes, after 30+ turns of Moody boosts, Glalie is somehow at -3 Speed or below. My rough estimate is that a given stat should be around +4 after that many turns of boosts, but I don't want to dive any deeper into the probabilities. So now I've got to stall out all the Surf PP. If Glalie's Speed is that low after that many turns, at least its Special Defense and Evasion are sure to be high. Luckily (not really because a miss from Lapras is about 5 times more likely) I don't get crit the next turn, and I'm able to stall it out of Surfs. Along the way, I finally got a couple Speed boosts and am faster than Lapras, so now I've got to whittle it down (Frost Breath is like an 8HKO) by keeping it Taunted so it can't Rest. Basically 4 cycles of Taunt, Frost Breath, Frost Breath, and that would leave me 7 Frost Breath PP to take on the 3rd Poke. What actually happened was great: I got my Sub broken once by Ice Beam, so I was one Frost Breath behind - I needed to Taunt and then use FB three straight times for the KO. I got Speed drops after each of those first three moves, so on the turn I was to finish it off, Lapras' taunt wore off, it outsped and Rested before I could do anything. Again, after over 40 turns of boosts, I was at -3 Speed. Ended up Struggling myself to death and miraculously not smashing my DS into tiny pieces.

    5. vs. Veteran Donta - this one's pretty boring compared to all the others. He leads with Flygon, and I'm able to fully cripple it: -6 Attack, -6 Accuracy, and it's holding a Lagging Tail. I'm trying to get it to knock out Sableye or at least hit with Outrage so it can get confused and I can bring in Glalie, but Flygon misses Sableye over 10 times in a row. I don't want to wait until Flygon's Struggling to bring in Glalie, so I switch it in for Flygon to crit with its last Stone Edge PP. Hallelujah.


    tl;dr only use Moody if you're a glutton for punishment
    Last edited: Aug 5, 2013
  6. Chinese Dood

    Chinese Dood

    Joined:
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    Interesting team and streaks! But yeah, that PP problem is huge I think for mono-attack Glalie to function extremely well. But wow, you have some persistence getting this going 5 times! If it was something else like DDnite, sure, but Moody is such a slow way to set up, so props for that!

    I'm sure you are much more experienced with your team, but a suggestion for you to maybe try out, if you haven't. Have you considered leading with Sableye instead of Whimsicott? My thought is that if you lead with Sableye, then after Sableye's done its thing, you can switch to Whimsicott (if Sableye didn't faint). Whimsicott will for sure not faint due to sash, and it can at least memento for Glalie to safely switch in so you won't have that "problem" you had in your last streak. Safely switching in your setupper is pretty important after all. A while ago I actually tried a final gambit crippler shuckle just so I could have a safe switch in lol.

    Something else I thought you can try maybe is have Torment on Sableye instead of taunt. You do already have two other taunters, so I thought you don't need that many taunters. With torment at least you will be able to know what move Glalie is not switching into, so you can ensure it is not going to switch into a Stone Edge. Even though any crit from switching in would be bad, it at least won't OHKO hopefully. Alternatively use Spite instead of Taunt on Sableye to clear out those attack PPs.

    If I were in your position though, I'd definitely just use something else instead of Glalie... Moody is just... too long.
  7. GG Unit

    GG Unit

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2008
    Messages:
    205
    I did a couple sets of 7 with Sableye in the lead while I was starting off. I think the main reason I like having Whimsicott first is so it can Worry Seed things right off the bat. Against something like Bisharp 3, I can get rid of Defiant and Charm it a time or two before fainting and then Trick/Flash until Sableye faints. If I led with Sableye, I could only Trick it before switching, and if the Bisharp got a crit on Whimsicott, I wouldn't be able to lower any of its stats. It'd be cool to switch the items and positions, but Whimsicott can't learn Worry Seed or Memento if it has Switcheroo. But you bring up a good point - I should probably be more proactive about switching Whimsicott out for Sableye rather than using Memento. In that Flygon battle, I saw that it had 4 attacking moves, which is almost always an easy set-up, and just went Charm-Charm-Memento with Whimsi. It would have been a good plan to Charm a couple times and switch out, although getting Sableye in on a crit would have sucked as well. Then Glalie would have needed to not get crit its first turn in so it could have set up a Sub and started stalling for boosts. That Shuckle doesn't seem like too bad an idea haha - was it Flash/Power Split/Final Gambit/Knock Off?
    abut

    I really do like having Taunt on all three, mostly because I'm paranoid about switching Glalie into a status move or worse, having something set up Toxic Spikes. The Toxic Spikes Forretress is hilarious to deal with, though - Taunt on turn 1 and switch to Sableye for an automatic 3-2 lead. The Haxorus set the Subway boss uses is a case where triple Taunt works wonderfully. I don't want it Dragon Dancing its attack back up, since it can probably take out Subs in one hit even at -2 or so.

    Yeah, something like Dragonite is in a class of its own in the Subway, and hopefully other people can find something even better that can set up against this kind of crippling. I guess I'm shooting for the longest record with a Moody sweeper. That 185 streak with Whimsicott/Bibarel/Drapion seems to be extremely lucky or made-up. I'm not exaggerating when I say that at least once in every set of 7, my accuracy will be low enough after 20+ turns that I miss with Taunt. This doesn't matter too much for me because by that point, I'm just spamming Taunt so I can get the boosts while conserving Sub+Protect PP for an emergency. When I missed, I could just go, "Hmmm, guess I have to spam Taunt a few more times until I get some accuracy boosts." But Moody Pokemon with just Sub + Protect have, best case, 32 turns to boost before they have to kill something... and if the Whimsicott used Leech Seed, that's only 8 or 9 turns to get "free" boosts lol. How did something like this not happen in 185 battles:

    Bibarel used X... the opponent avoided the attack!
    opponent used Y.. Bibarel's substitute faded!
    Bibarel used X.. it misses again/ doesn't KO because it's a Bibarel with no offensive EVs
    opponent used Y.. a critical hit! Bibarel fainted.
  8. Chinese Dood

    Chinese Dood

    Joined:
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    The Shuckle I used was Stealth Rock / Struggle Bug / Power Split / Final Gambit. I think I used Flash over Stealth Rock for a while, but Stealth Rock is definitely a good assurance for your set upper. Struggle Bug is great though, doing minimal damage but makes shuckle not care about taunt as much while lowering SpA.

    On a slightly related but largely unrelated note, I can still get a 100-ish streak with just Scizor (SD/Sub/Bullet Punch / Superpower) in Subway (it definitely had an easier time in Gen IV), but only with stealth rock support because Superpower or Bullet Punch would just miss the KO on some things otherwise (unfortunately some of those are fire types - but fortunately for stealth rock, those fire types take a good chunk of damage). Coincidentally Trick-SR-Memento Uxie is a great partner for Scizor.

    ... Speaking of which... Crippler Taunt/Memento Whimsicott/Mismagius + Trick-Scarf-Stealth Rock-Memento Uxie + SD Scizor is still one of the fastest crippler-set upper teams ever I think. Like, battles are almost always less than 15 turns, which is pretty fast for a set upper team. [Typically, with small variations: (Whimsicott/Mismagius in) Turn 1. Taunt. 2. Memento. (Uxie in) 3. Trick. 4. Twave. 5. Stealth Rock. 6. Memento. (Scizor in) 7. Sub. 8,9,10. SD. 11. KO#1. 12. KO#2. 13. KO#3.] ... Shorter variation for non-threatening leads = 1. Twave (if Mismagius). 2. Mismagius Memento. 3. Uxie SR. 4. Scizor switch in. 5-7. SD. 8. Sub. 9-11. KO#1-3.

    I sort of like Mismagius more here because of Twave, but because of Twave, sometimes taunt which be over by the time Uxie Tricks scarf (because of opponent full paralysis), which then sucks because opponent might then switch if locked into a non-damaging move. Soo, that is also why I tend to Twave with Mismagius only on things that Scizor can comfortably handle (defensively) as it may require Scizor to switch in for Uxie to use another move (first time SR, then 2nd turn coming in to Memento). or just switching Scizor in to set up in general. That said, Whimsicott has Worry Seed.

    I believe Pikwyn was the first person to use Shuckle though. I merely tested it out with a different set.
  9. acreland

    acreland

    Joined:
    Apr 24, 2013
    Messages:
    25
    Right. So I've given up on Breloom. He's awesome, but the Subway doesn't care about awesome. So on to the next thing: Dodrio. I'm thinking something like this:

    Whimsicott @ Sash: WS - Taunt - Flash - Memento
    Suicune @ Chesto: Sub - CM - Scald - Rest
    Dodrio @ Lefties/Sharp Beak: Sub - AP - Rest - DP

    There are a couple things going for Dodrio: 1) It's one of the select few who learn Acupressure, which we all know is pretty tops in the Subway. 2) Nothing is immune to its Flying STAB and most of the things that could potentially beat it once set-up are mauled by Suicune. Also, Drill Peck has 1 million PP. 3) You only need 130 Spd @ Lv.50 to outspeed the whole Subway after a +2 boost. This means you can use max Atk Adamant and still invest slightly in HP due to its base 100 Spd. 4) Early Bird makes Rest less risky during tricky set-ups. The early wake up also means it can potentially hold Sharp Beak instead of Lefties, I'll test both. 5) Its got 3 heads. What a boss.
    Now I've just got to breed a decent one, sighhh...

    Any thoughts? (Other than the obvious Electric weakness.)
  10. NoCheese

    NoCheese It's not just a house...it's a maison!
    is a Pre-Contributor

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    My biggest worry with Dodrio is that its defenses are just so frail that even after a Memento, a lot of attacks will still break Dodrio's Substitute. Accordingly, I fear that you may find untimely crits during set up, or the frequent failure of Accupressure to boost the defensive stat you need in a timely manner, will get you in trouble. That said, it is always really cool when an unexpected Pokemon does well in the Subway (Chinese Dood's big success with Stoutland was inspiring), and Early Bird is an ability begging to be abused.

    Given that you'll be Accupressuring as many as 21 times, depending on your luck on what gets boosted, I can't imagine that Sharp Beak will be better than Leftovers. When setting up takes so long, Leftovers saves you a ton of HP, and with a couple of boosts to attack, the extra damage from Sharp Beak quickly becomes irrelevant. Sharp Beak is only really going to help when you are forced to attack with Dodrio after incomplete setup AND the extra damage proves relevant in reducing the number of hits to KO, and I don't expect this to be a particularly common situation. Indeed, if you are commonly in that position, it suggests that Dodrio may not be sturdy enough for the Accupressure setup role.

    Best of luck!
  11. Chinese Dood

    Chinese Dood

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    I thought about using Dodrio before, but the few damage calculations I did (I don't even remember what they were) were not very impressive. I think it will be difficult to set up even if all 508 EVs are used into defenses and HP. Like, you sort of have to bank on 1) full paralyses, 2)first Acupressure boosting the correct defense or evasion, 3)Flashes from your crippler... Of course, full paralysis won't happen without a Twave.

    With crippler Whimsicott (i.e. no Trick-Scarfing), you won't even be able to lock opponent into a move that Dodrio resists, so pretty much it will only be able to set up on some grass types or get those bunch of Flashes. I think there are better options than Dodrio, but hey, you should give it a try anyway! I agree with NoCheese on Leftovers.

    I started a short streak using all choice team (3-4 Turn battles are fun):
    Starmie / Natural Cure / Timid @ Choice Specs
    - SPIT

    Landorus-T / Intimidate / Jolly @ Choice Band
    - U-Turn / EQ / Rock Slide / Explosion

    Togekiss / Serene Grace / Modest @ Choice Scarf
    - Air Slash / Aura Sphere / Flamethrower / Trick

    No Steel types! Thought about Scarf Magnezone instead of Togekiss, but I would probably want an HP Grass Magnezone (I don't currently have) instead of HP Ice, and too lazy to breed for one since I'm concentrating mostly on VGC at the moment.

    Anyway, I like how battles are much faster.
  12. acreland

    acreland

    Joined:
    Apr 24, 2013
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    Thanks for the replies, much appreciated.

    @NoCheese
    Most definitely agree. Dodrio is frail as f#%* and will likely have a difficult time setting up against quite a few things. 'Cune will likely end up doing most of the heavy lifting but hopefully I'll get a couple Dodrio sweeps off. The prospect of abusing Early Bird/AP is exactly the reason I opted for the bird, I'll let you know how it works out.
    Lefties > SB. Thanks, your logic has saved me testing and damage calcs. You champ.

    @Chinese Dood
    I kinda figured you may have thought of it at some point what with all the interesting 'mons you've used in the Subway.
    While the calcs & lack of T-Wave have now left me slightly depressed I'll definitely still give it a shot, even if only for the novelty value. If I can crack a 100 streak I'll call it a job well done.
    On another note, interesting Choice team. How's Lando-T working out?
  13. Chinese Dood

    Chinese Dood

    Joined:
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    Landorus-T is pretty nice. That said, I have used the exact same set with an incarnate Landorus (which is as easy as using reveal glass to change it back, so convenient), and that actually might even have been better because of the number of extra things it outspeeds. Here I get way more power, where a neutral EQ can KO some frail pokemon. In either case, Rockslide is the move I use the least because of accuracy issues, but almost all the 2x rock weak pokemon that Rockslide will OHKO with Landorus-T, it will not OHKO with Landorus-I.

    It was a fairly quick decision to make for this team. SPIT Starmie and Landorus(-T) work well together both offensively and defensively. Then it was a matter of slapping something on that works well with a choice scarf. Togekiss sort of made at least some sense, giving a grass resist and ghost immunity for Starmie. A steel type ideally makes the most sense, but Magnezone would have very similar coverage to Starmie. Metagross is possible I suppose (Trick / Iron Head / Ice Punch / EQ if I want accuracy?).

    Currently just at 49 with this team, and haven't continued, probably won't continue much until after VGC Worlds this weekend.
  14. acreland

    acreland

    Joined:
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    It's an interesting trade off between speed vs power & Intimidate. I imagine Intimidate has been useful?
    Scizor is potentially a good partner. Keeping to the Choice theme, either standard BP/UT/SP/AA @ Band and give Lando-T the scarf instead (loss of speed mitigated + priority gained) or something a little different UT/IH/SP/AA @ Scarf. The coverage is less redundant than Meta/Mag & the defensive synergy is awesome. Scarf Aerial Ace could also be nice hax insurance.

    Good luck at Worlds. (Beware Magic Coat Cresselia...)
  15. Chinese Dood

    Chinese Dood

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    I thought about Band Scizor and changing Landorus to Scarf, but I did not do it, because I see little point to using Jolly Landorus-T if it is scarfed. I don't have an Adamant one. :P I suppose I could try out Scarf Scizor.
  16. acreland

    acreland

    Joined:
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    Ah that's a pity. After reconsidering, Scarf Heatran makes a lot more sense than Scizor. It takes care of some potentially problematic 'mons for Starmie & Lando-T while Scizor would really need the extra power CB brings to do the same. The only problem is stacking the Water weakness with Lando-T but I still reckon it's worth a try.
  17. Chinese Dood

    Chinese Dood

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    I'm at 70 with that team now. I'm a bit surprised I haven't lost yet, but I don't know if I should be (70 isn't that great yet after all). I was thinking I'd for sure need some sort of priority to make the team more well rounded.

    ... something like the CB Scizor Jumpman's using :P I guess, but I do like CB Lando-T. Togekiss Trick has been pretty useful against stall/set up pokemon as well. I think I'll just keep as is, but since Trick has been fairly useful, if I were to change something to get some more defense against dragons, I'd probably use something like Metagross @ Scarf - Iron Head / Ice Punch / EQ / Trick. Even just looking at the moveset though, I already like Togekiss better, just because that Gross set (and pretty much any Gross set) isn't going to attack extremely hard without an attack boosting item. On the other hand, Togekiss flinch hax can be pretty nice sometimes, and Flamethrower (as in a fire move) is almost needed in my team I think.

    If I do try out Scarf Heatran though, I'm pretty sure I will "need" to put Toxic in its moveset to deal with set up pokemon, but that will still be useless against Resters (Scarf Heatran with toxic and taunt??? lol... I would... just not use a scarf in that case).

    Pretty much I agree with Jumpman (I think Jumpman said it?) that Trick is almost a necessity in an all choice team. I COULD use Trick Specs Latios instead of Starmie, though the team would be somewhat different.
  18. Flaming Facepalm

    Flaming Facepalm

    Joined:
    Aug 9, 2013
    Messages:
    66
    Hey! I would really appreciate some help with Battle Subway. This is the team I regularly use, and it got me to around 30. But 30 isn't good enough :(

    1. Tyranitar @ Life Orb

    Adamant, EVs: 255 Atk/255 Spd ( I get lazy with EV training)

    Ability: Sand Stream

    - Stone Edge
    - Crunch
    - Rock Polish
    - Earthquake


    2. Excadrill @ Focus Sash

    Adamant, EVs: 255 Atk/ 255 Spd

    Ability: Sand Rush

    - Swords Dance
    - Earthquake
    -
    - X-Scissor

    3. Haxorus @ Choice Scarf

    Adamant, EVs: 255 Atk/ 255 Spd


    Ability: Mold Breaker


    - Outrage
    - Dragon Claw
    - Earthquake
    -
    It's really self-explanatory what this team does. I'm limited to pokes and moves only available in Pokemon White, so I would appreciate help dearly. I don't have any hacking programs to get me perfect IVs and such things, or Dream World. So, may I ask this forum's assistance?
  19. Tomaius

    Tomaius

    Joined:
    Aug 31, 2008
    Messages:
    62
    FlamingFacepalm: First of all a record of 30 is actually pretty good, it seems low compared to some of the records here, but 30 is still nothing to sniff at. But, don't worry with a little tweaking we can help.

    I don't mean to sound patronising but lets start with the basics: The best teams in the Subway often have a lead Pokemon that allows pokemon with stat boosting moves to sweep. This is the core of records like Jumpman's or Yahadzai. TTar whilst great in the OU Metagame, is a liability in the subway due to its low speed, so lets swap it for something that can give better support to your main sweepers. Personally, outside of Truant Durant, my favourite is Whimsicott with the following set (I'm fairly sure you can get the egg moves from pokemon in White):

    Whimsicott, Bold @Focus sash
    252 Def / 252 SDef / 4 HP
    Prankster
    -Flash
    -Cotton Spore
    -Taunt
    -Memento

    This allows you to safely debuff mon before switching to your set up mon: In this case lets go with Haxorus with the following set:


    Haxorus @Leftovers

    Adamant, EVs: 252 Atk / 100 Spd / 152 Hp

    Ability: Mold Breaker

    - Substitute
    - Dragon Claw
    - Earthquake
    - Dragon Dance

    You want Haxy to have some bulk, as your speed will be buffed with Dragon Dance. After Whimsicott has Cotton Spore'd, Flash'd and Memento'd the opponent boost up to +6 DD and let rip with Dragon Claw. (Outrage is too risky to lock yourself into)


    Lastly you want a cleaner, a mon that mops up and is more immediate to use in case setting up isn't suitable:


    Terrakion @Choice Scarf
    Adamant
    EVs- 252 Atk 252 Spd 6 HP
    Quick Attack
    Earthquake
    Close Combat
    Rock Slide

    This is just a rough idea I clambered together in my head, but have fun and remember that the Subway isn't about winning as testing different methods and just gradually getting a bit futher every time.
  20. Chinese Dood

    Chinese Dood

    Joined:
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    @Flaming Facepalm:
    Here are my thoughts:

    For starters, there are sort of two main types/categories of teams that do well in Single Battle Subway:
    1) Crippling teams
    2) Non-crippling teams that make use of good offensive and defensive synergy

    1) Crippling teams will involve 1 or 2 pokemon for crippling an opponent's lead while the remaining pokemon(s) will be set up sweepers. Good/common/decent cripplers (in my opinion) include Whimsicott, Durant, Latias, Uxie, Mesprit, Stoutland, Shuckle, and probably a bunch of others. You can probably read about each of those individually by clicking the links from the first page involving those pokemon. Main idea behind crippling teams is that it abuses the fact that the opponent AI is not very smart, as it rarely ever switches, allowing your crippler to lower your opponent lead's attacks so that it will do very little damage. Then you can get your set up sweeper in to set up and then KO everything in the opponent's team.

    2) Non-crippling teams that make use of good offensive and defensive synergy are the teams that are probably more fun to play with, as each battle is very different, and most battles are going to be much faster than a crippling team as well, because a non-crippling team may or may not involve any setting up. That having said, most of the non-crippling teams that do well WILL most likely involve at least one defensive set upper. Usually it is either Suicune or Ferrothorn. This is due to the fact that some of the pokemon in Battle Subway are very bulky and will not be easily KO'd. Having a bulky pokemon to handle those pokemon is very good.

    Now, as for your current team, it is of course not a crippling team. I think Tyranitar is actually ok as a Subway pokemon, but to actually make use of it well in Subway, it probably should be Jolly with a Choice Scarf. Jolly with Dragon Dance is ok as well, but it will not be able to set up that often, and chances are if you are able to set up with Tyranitar, it is better to set up with Swords Dance Excadrill instead.

    Assuming I am trying to suggest minimal change to your team, then I would suggest to keep Tyranitar and Excadrill (I mean just the pokemon, not the same movesets/nature/etc.). Tyranitar will allow Excadrill to take advantage Sand Rush, hopefully sweeping big time after just one SD (it probably won't get the chance to have two). Now for a third pokemon, you will desperately need something that resists Tyranitar and Excadrill's weaknesses. You need something that at least resists Fighting, Water, and Ground which both Tyranitar and Excadrill are weak to. Grass and Ice are currently not resisted by either Tyranitar or Excadrill as well, though Tyranitar/Excadrill together can hopefully handle most Ice types. Something that may work well here is Gyarados which resists fighting, water, and is immune to ground and is not weak to ice. Latios is ok as well, resisting fighting, water, grass, immune to ground, but is weak to ice. I'm probably more inclined to use Latios because it is a good special attacker, which will balance out the physical attackers of Tyranitar and Excadrill. That said, it might be difficult for you to obtain a Latios maybe, in which case Gyarados might be ok still. Alternatively something like Slowbro is sort of ok, resisting fighting and water, and will take physical ground moves (e.g. Earthquake) decently well with its strong defense. If you really don't care about defense, then Starmie is an ok offensive alternative. You can still switch it in on water/fighting attacks and then KO some stuff.

    For Jolly Choice scarf Tyranitar, I would recommend a move set of something like: Crunch / Rockslide or Smack Down / Fire Punch / Low Kick or Ice Punch. The thing with Smack Down is that combined with Excadrill's Earthquake, it can make some levitating or flying threats (but mostly levitating) a lot easier to handle. Also, Rockslide has a 10% chance to miss.

    For Excadrill, you probably want Swords Dance / Earthquake / X-Scissor / Rockslide or Iron Head. I'd recommend having a bit of bulk instead of using max attack and speed. Rockslide is much better than Iron Head in terms of coverage but has the missing chance. I probably wouldn't put a focus sash just because putting a focus sash on anything other than your lead is actually a bit counter-intuitive, because you are likely to have to switch Excadrill in, taking a hit and breaking its sash.

    For Latios, you will want Dragon Pulse / Psychic (or Psyshock) / other coverage moves like Thunderbolt or Surf or Hidden Power Ground or Grass Knot or Energy Ball, probably holding choice specs, but Life Orb or Expert Belt are fine as well if you want to be able to switch moves. If you are using a Gyarados instead, then I'd recommend a fairly bulky EV spread (at least 164 HP and then probably some Defense and Special Defense), maybe even with Dragon Dance and Rest. The idea is that you want something bulky that can out last an opponent pokemon. Dragon Dance / Rest / Waterfall / Return is actually not bad. Chesto/Lum/Leftovers are probably all fine. If you are using Slowbro, then you definitely want something like Psychic or Psyshock / Scald / Toxic / Slack Off. Milotic with a similar moveset (Scald / Ice Beam / Toxic / Recover) is fine as well actually. Milotic is actually used much more often than Slowbro because of the better speed. If you are using Starmie, there is a common moveset that most here refer to as SPIT, which stands for Surf or Scald / Psyshock or Psychic / Ice Beam / Thunderbolt. Surf is usually the preferred move on Starmie because Starmie's job is trying to KO things, whereas Scald is less powerful but has the potential burn. Starmie should be holding Choice Specs, Life Orb, or Expert Belt again. It (or Latios) should definitely be Timid to outspeed more threats. I mentioned HP Ground on Latios specifically, because HP Ground allows for Speed IV of 31, while other Hidden Powers that covers well alongside Psychic/Dragon Pulse... like HP Fire, will require a speed IV of 30, meaning Timid will not speed tie other base 110s.

    Now if you are actually up for changing the entire team, I would not really recommend Tyranitar + Excadrill. If you are using Excadrill though, I think Tyranitar is pretty much a necessity.

    EDIT: Also, my opinion on Haxorus is actually slightly different than Tomaius's, but his recommendation is also different because he recommended Whimsicott to cripple before setting up.

    For me, if I were NOT using a crippler lead, I would highly recommend Outrage on Haxorus if you are using Dragon Dance Haxorus, but you should be holding a Lum Berry in that case. If you can get Haxorus to even just +1, Outrage will be 2HKOing plenty of things, even some steel types. At +3 or so, I am pretty sure Outrage will comfortably 2HKO most Steel types. That said, with a crippler, there is indeed no need to Outrage. That having said, there is also little reason to use DD Haxorus with a crippler team I think. Salamence and Dragonite are both better choices than Haxorus in my opinion.
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2013
    NoCheese likes this.
  21. syndrome445

    syndrome445

    Joined:
    Jul 6, 2013
    Messages:
    168
    Great news my friend, there exists legitimate ways to obtain such pokemon in the form of RNG and PPRNG as well as good ol' Breeding with Power Items.

    RNG and PPRNG are the most effective as they can potentially get you anything you want, but require a bit of learning while just plain old breeding is luck based.
  22. Flaming Facepalm

    Flaming Facepalm

    Joined:
    Aug 9, 2013
    Messages:
    66

    Thank you for your help! I can remake my team, but I'd rather not. As for Tyranitar's role outside Sand Stream support, the idea is to kill as much as possible and get Excadrill a same switch-in, which is where the Focus Sash shines, because it gets me a free Swords Dance. Usually, the only problems I have to deal with are Sturdy pokes, Priority, or things that survive my hits, like Skarmory.



    I think I forgot to clarify this, but I have no contact to other games at all. Sadly, this means I cannot possess any pokes obtainable outside of Pokemon White, so no Lati twins. I also have pretty much no control over Hidden Power. Most of the time, my strategy is to smash anything I see with powerful attacks. Sometimes I use a Life Orb Mienshao as my lead and make Tyranitar, and Excadrill follow. But no matter what I try, I can't get past 40. D:
  23. Chinese Dood

    Chinese Dood

    Joined:
    Aug 15, 2008
    Messages:
    1,072
    If you are up for changing your team entirely, then I'd recommend one with more defensive synergy - as in a team where team members can somewhat easily switch in and out on predicted moves that your switch in will resist.

    This is most easily done by having a Dragon type, a Water Type, and a Steel type. ... However, a very good dragon type (for Subway) does not really exist in Unova dex I believe (I'm looking at this list: http://pokemondb.net/pokedex/game/black-white-2). I am going to assume that Dream World Pokemon is also out of your reach (since otherwise, you can probably get all the non-legendary pokemon I mentioned previously).

    Out of that list, I would then maybe recommend trying something like:
    1) Starmie / Natural Cure / Timid @ Choice Specs
    - Surf / Psyshock / Ice Beam / Thunderbolt

    2) Hydreigon / Levitate / Modest @ Choice Scarf
    - Dragon Pulse or Draco Meteor / Flamethrower / Earth Power / Dark Pulse

    3) Ferrothorn / Iron Barbs / Sassy @ Leftovers
    - Curse / Substitute / Leech Seed / Gyro Ball

    Having two bug and two fighting weaknesses is a bit unfortunate, but the sort of "saddest" thing is that Starmie and Hydreigon function similarly, and while they have very different movesets, a specially defensive pokemon will still wall both of them.

    Alternatively you can give Scarf Haxorus a try, probably with something like Outrage / Dragon Claw / Earthquake / Filler=Superpower or Night Slash or some thing. A slightly bulky Dragon Dance Haxorus (@ Lum with Outrage) will also be fine.

    Otherwise, if you want to use something similar to the team I was using... (I got to 82 with it), that is probably fine as well, but just keep in mind that you will need to make switches often. Since you do not have access to Togekiss (which was on my team) I recommend something like this:

    1) Starmie / Natural Cure / Timid @ Choice Specs
    EVs: 4 HP 252 SpA 252 Speed
    - Surf / Psyshock / Ice Beam / Thunderbolt

    2) Landorus or Landorus-T / Sand Force or Intimidate / Jolly @ Choice Band
    EVs: 4 HP 252 Attack 252 Speed
    - Earthquake / Explosion / U-Turn / Rockslide

    3a) Ferrothorn / Iron Barbs / Sassy @ Leftovers
    EVs: 252 HP 4 Attack 252 Sp Def
    - Curse / Substitute / Leech Seed / Gyro Ball

    or if you want to try out an entirely choiced team:

    3b) Metagross / Clear Body / Adamant or Jolly @ Choice Scarf
    EVs: 4 SpDef 252 Attack 252 Speed
    - Iron Head / Ice Punch / Earthquake / Trick
    ... With Adamant Choice Scarf, Metagross outspeeds +115s, while with Jolly Choice Scarf it outspeeds +130s. I think either is fine.

    You can try for more creative EV spreads, but for Subway, I don't think that is really even necessary, and might not even be better.

    Actually I might even try out my choice team with Ferrothorn replacing Togekiss (well, making it no longer an all choice team, but whatever), since the defensive synergy is pretty good there.

    EDIT: Just a note about NOT changing your team and your strategy behind your team...
    If you want to get far, (unless you get pretty lucky) you cannot really have the mentality of "I lead with this and then try to do as much as I can with this pokemon and then let it faint and let another pokemon come in to setup/attack." which is what you are thinking with Tyranitar and sash Excadrill. There will come a time (very likely before even 49 streak) where your Tyranitar fainted and then you'd really wish you still had your Tyranitar alive when facing your opponent's third pokemon which then sweeps your team. Maybe it is not as applicable with Tyranitar + Excadrill because they get walled and destroyed by similar things, but still that mentality means you are guaranteed to be down a pokemon or two facing a bad lead match up, and being down a pokemon or two is huge when you only have three pokemon to work with.

    Pretty much the summary is... Defensive switches are very important if you are not using a crippling strategy (they are somewhat important even then). Having Tyranitar to boost up Excadrill's offensive capabilities is cool, but it is difficult to get very far with it because of their common weaknesses meaning you will have to rely on your third pokemon to take on everything that walls or beats both of those (and a number of pokemon that beat one of those will be beat both of those due to their shared weaknesses).

    EDIT2:
    Something else to note on "mentality" of Single Subway, especially when using a non-crippling team. You should always think of your team as an entire entity, i.e. as a team, not individual pokemon beating things up. Ideally your aim is always to 3-0 your opponent, because even if you are 2-1, your two remaining pokemon may very well both be weak to that one remaining pokemon on your opponent's side. I.e. unless you have somehow already seen all 3 of your opponent's pokemon, you are never sure which member in your team will be crucial for winning the battle. If I am up 3-1 and I see what my opponent's last pokemon is, I wouldn't hesitate to get Landorus-T in to just explode and end the battle quickly if that guarantees me winning, but I'd rarely explode with Landorus-T before seeing my opponent's last pokemon, because if it's an electric type, it might be able to beat both Starmie and Togekiss, or even something like Weavile (which I really should EV train my Togekiss to outspeed but currently doesn't since it was a VGC Scarf Togekiss that just outspeeds the base 111 genies). Even something like Aerodactyl will scare my team a lot if only Starmie and Togekiss are there (in fact, even if Landorus-T is still alive haha) since crit Stone Edge will ruin pretty much everything (as an aside... hence why I'm considering Ferrothorn).

    Anyway, main idea: do not let any of your pokemon faint unnecessarily if possible. Two pokemon both at 10 HP is likely still better than one pokemon at full HP.
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2013
  24. Flaming Facepalm

    Flaming Facepalm

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    I don't have access to Landorus, but I already have a Starmie. Although, I prefer Life Orb over Choice Specs on it.
  25. Chinese Dood

    Chinese Dood

    Joined:
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    Life Orb Starmie is fine as well. You will less likely need to make switches, although I think it is good practice to try out Choice Specs Starmie, as Choice items actually really forces you to make decisions on switches. While Life Orb makes decisions easier, it also gets fewer KOs while getting itself KO'd faster.

    A pokemon that you do have access to that will actually fit into Landorus's role defensively is Poison Heal Gliscor @ Toxic Orb. It will require some patience to get a good one in the hidden grottos though. I've tried this Gliscor:
    Gliscor / Poison Heal / Impish @ Toxic Orb
    - 252 HP / 4 Attack / 252 Speed
    - Toxic / Protect / Substitute / Earthquake

    And it can beat a lot with just toxi-stalling. Of course, it is not the same as Landorus(-T) offensively, but yeah, it's not bad as a replacement if you are willing to get one.

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