Blissey [2/3]

I will write this up in a few days, got some stuff I have to do first.

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get in ma belly

Overview
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-Blissey is one of the best special walls in the game, with fantastic special defense and reliable recovery. She is only second is special bulk to Eviolite Chansey.
-She stands out from Eviolite Chansey, by holding Leftovers making her better off against passive damage from entry hazards or sandstorm, allowing her to be on the same team as Hippowdon and Tyranitar. Furthermore, Blissey has a usable special attack, she can fry incoming Steel-types with Flamethrower.
-Blissey has a variety of support moves at her disposal: Wish, Aromatherapy, Stealth Rock.
-Very weak to physical attacks, she will need ample teammate support on her physical side to work effectively.
-Blissey is rather weak offensively and is easily checked.
-As a special wall, Blissey faces stiff competition as a special wall this generation. Competing as a special wall; Sylveon have similarly high special bulk with Fairy-typing and decent defense. Assault Vest vest users like Tyranitar and Goodra are formidable special tanks.
-Special attackers with Psyshock and Secrete Sword can break through Blissey.

Supporting Special Wall
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name: Supporting Special Wall
move 1: Soft-boiled
move 2: Wish / Heal Bell
move 3: Toxic / Thunder Wave
move 4: Seismic Toss / Flamethrower
ability: Natural Cure
item: Leftovers
nature: Calm / Bold
evs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD

Moves
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-With this set Blissey can support the team while also being a formidable special wall
-Soft-Boiled is Blissey's primary recovery move for reliable healing.
-The next slot is for her support move of choice. Blissey can pass a gigantic Wish of 357 HP, healing most Pokemon to full health, while Heal Bell cures the team of status.
-If using Wish, Protect is an option over Softboiled to stall the foe, and scout their moves, however, with Protect Blissey cannot reliably heal against incoming boosting physical attackers like Lucario.
-Wish needs to be run with Softboiled or Protect for Blissey to reliably recover.
-With Toxic Blissey can wear down opposing Pokemon and stall them down, as well crippling any incoming Pokemon.
-Thunder Wave is an alternative status option, crippling Pokemon Blissey cannot deal with herself like Dragonite, Crobat, and Lucario. It is move suited to offensive teams for paralysis spreading. Be aware that ditching Toxic will leave Blissey unable to wear down some special attackers, most importantly Volcarona.
-Seismic Toss is Blissey's primary attacking move, chipping away a solid 100 HP at a time.
-Alternatively, Flamethrower can be used to frying opposing Steel-types like Ferrothorn, Forretress, whom can otherwise set up Spikes on Blissey, or against incoming Pokemon like Scizor or Genesect.
-Stealth Rock is another supporting option for Blissey, if you need a hazard setter. Blissey will have ample opportunity to set up on weaker special attackers, however, against some more offensive physically based teams, Blissey will be hard pressed to set up.
-There is some level of malleability in this set, if you need Blissey with Heal Bell and Wish, she can run both of them, with the other move over Toxic, Siesmic Toss, or Flamethrower. However, the loss of these moves makes Blissey a less potent wall. Without Siesmic Toss Blissey cannot wall Heatran for example, and one will need to deal with her loss of defensive coverage.
-Finally, if your team doesn't particularly need Wish or Heal Bell support, Blissey can run Flamethrower over them.

Set Details
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-The listed EVs give Blissey adequate physical defense, so she can take a Pursuit and some Psyshock.
-The choice between Calm and Bold here is up to preference and what your team needs. In particular, a Calm nature helps Blissey combat Life Orb Volcarona and Tail Glow Manaphy, minimizing the odds of a 2HKO from a +2 Fire Blast or Surf respectively. A Bold nature stops Life Orb Alakazam and Choice Specs Latios 2HKOing with Psyshock.
-4 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpD Bold has roughly the same bulk as the Calm nature of the listed spread, but less HP it gives less health to from draining moves, so if not using Wish, it is the preferred spread.
-The most specially defensive Blissey should get is 4 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpD Calm, which can still take Pursuit and some weaker Psychock. Higher special defense investment allows Blissey to combat special monsters like Thundurus, Landorus-I, and Manaphy. Any less investment in defense will leave Blissey horrendously frail, even the bare minimum defense investment will nearly double her physical bulk.

Usage Tips
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-Blissey can switch into most special attackers quite easily and support the team or combat them.
-Against more potent special threats like Volcarona, it is critical to poison first then wear them down, as wasting precious turns supporting may allow them to break through Blissey. Only against weaker or non-boosting special attackers is supporting advised.
-Special attackers are unlikely to stay in on Blissey, as they pose no real threat to it, and will switch to a physical attacker. Use Team Preview and a bit of prediction to use the appropriate move on the incoming Pokemon.
-Blissey will be useful as long as their are special attackers for her to come in on. After the foe's special threats are off the table, Blissey may become dead-weight, in which case feel free to sacrifice for momentum.
-Wish support to teammates can be rather predictable against seasoned players, attacking or checking the predicted switched in Pokemon. To support teammates with Wish, you may have to fake it out a few times before you can safely switch the supported Pokemon in safely.

Team Options
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-Being weak to physical attacks, Blissey needs teammates to cover physical threats, mainly physical walls. In return physical walls like appreciate Blissey's ability to sponge a variety of special attacks.
- Hippowdon is a very solid physical wall; it can take on many physical attackers, phaze with with Whirlwind, and support the team with sandstorm.
-Blissey and Skarmory form the well known SkarmBliss core: together, they wall both physical and special attackers. However, it is less effective than it was in the past, due to there being stronger and more common mixed attackers in the metagame.
-Alternatively, Landorus-T, Gliscor, Slowbro, and RestTalk Gyarados are solid physical walls which also cover Blissey's Fighting-type weakness.
-As a special wall, Blissey cannot counter Genesect, so a Genesect check like Heatran or Charizard-X is appreciated.
-Grass types like Gourgeist-S, Trevant, Venusaur, and Amoonguss check Fighting-types and a variety of other threats to Blissey, and greatly appreciate any support Blissey can give them in return.
-Sableye, despite its poor defenses, is a decent partner, checking powerful Fighting-types like Lucario, and problematic special Pokemon for Blissey like Reuniclus, and Alakazam.
-Overall Ghost-types are solid partners, taking Fighting-type attacks aimed at her.
-Offensively, Pokemon like Gengar, Talonflame, Dragonite, can check a variety of Blissey's threats and appreciate the support she brings to the table.

Other Options
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-Blissey actually has quite a wide special move pool to toy around with.
-Fire Blast is a more powerful alternative to Flamethrower, in particular is nearly 1HKOs incoming Scizor and Genesect, the low PP and accuracy makes it worse overall.
-Ice Beam can surprise incoming Dragon-types, Landorus-T, and Gliscor, however Blissey should have other Pokemon to deal with these physical threats, and Ice Beam offers little outside of surprising these Pokemon.
-Thunderbolt can surprise Gyarados, Talonflame, and Cloyster, but offers little else.
-Skill Swap is a niche option which allows Blissey to combat Pokemon like Gliscor and Reuniclus by swapping their abilities.
-Blissey can set up Gravity if that's your thing.
-Calm Mind gives Blissey more an offensive touch and allows her to combat special boosters, however Blissey is easily walled and their are much less contrived ways to deal with boosters.
-Blissey can toy with moves like Sign and Charm, but she has much better things to do.

Checks & Counters
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**Hard Counters**:
-Poison Heal Gliscor completely counters Blissey, bar the unusual Ice Beam or Skill Swap. It is immune to Toxic and Thunder Wave, and takes little from Seismic Toss and Flamethrower. Gliscor can stall Blissey out, or just outright attack it with Earthquake.
-Calm Mind Magic Guard Clefable and Reuniclus cannot be worn down from Toxic and can recover any lost health, and can boost up on her to KO.
-Boosting special attackers who cannot be worn down, like Chesto Rest Volcarona and Jirachi, work similarly.
-Chansey and Blissey herself are counters, opposing blobs eventually force each other out with Toxic, and it is a good opportunity for your Chansey or Blissey to support the team.
-Ageislash and Mawile counter most Blissey sets, taking little from her attacks and don't mind paralysis too much.

**Non-Flamethrower**:
-Ferrothorn, Forretress, Skamory can switch in easily and set up spikes on her or wear her down.
-Scizor and Genesect can switch in relatively safely and threaten with U-turn or set up on her.
-Gengar, a poor counter as Blissey can just use the opportunity to support the team even if she can't touch it.

**Non Seismic Toss**:
-Defensive Heatran can wear Blissey down.

**Physical Pokemon in General**:
-Physical attackers that can switch in safely and pack a threatening physical attack can beat her easily.
-Physical versions of Lucario and Excadrill can switch in relatively safely, being immune to Toxic and taking little from her attacks, threating with STAB Close Combat and Earthquake, however Lucario is crippled by Thunder Wave.
-Fighting-types like Conkeldurr, Terrakion, Infernape, Breloom can outright 1HKO Blissey.
-Strong Choice Band users.
-Blissey will be KOed by physical powerhoses like Azumarill, Diggersby, and Kyurem-B.
-Set up Pokemon such as Garchomp and Dragonite can force her out.

**Cutting through to the defense**
-A few special attackers can slice thought Blissey can check her, hitting hard on the physical side with Psyshock and Secrete Sword.
-Alakazam and Latios can cut through her with Psyshock, to check her at low health, but otherwise Blissey can take their hits.
-Keldeo outright 2HKOs with Secrete Sword.

**Shutting Blissey Down**
-Taunt users like Jellicent and Sableye can stall her out.
-Tricking a choice item on Blissey can cripple her and make her pretty much useless as a wall.

**Trapping**
-Pursuit Tyranitar
-Dugtrio and Gothitelle trap and kill a weakened Blissey.
 
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Wish on Blissey shouldn't even be allowed on PS, can anyone honestly say that they have a wish blissey with perf iv's etc, hell can anyone even say they have a wish blissey at all?
 
Wish on Blissey shouldn't even be allowed on PS, can anyone honestly say that they have a wish blissey with perf iv's etc, hell can anyone even say they have a wish blissey at all?

It's a possibility. We play in a metagame of what's legally possible in actuality, no matter how miniscule the probability of such might be.
 
In the overview, instead of saying that Blissey has a fantastic Special Defense stat, say it has a fantastic HP stat. The Special Defense stat by itself is good, but not great.

Wish on Blissey shouldn't even be allowed on PS, can anyone honestly say that they have a wish blissey with perf iv's etc, hell can anyone even say they have a wish blissey at all?
Off-topic, but I have a Wish Chansey still at Level 5 from a friend who went to the event themself. You are right in there not being a chance of a flawless one, in fact, mine is one of 2 Wish Chanseys on any English trading board and even then, its nature unfortunately happens to be -SpD which sucks, but I have never touched it or trained it and I don't plan to.
 
Wish on Blissey shouldn't even be allowed on PS, can anyone honestly say that they have a wish blissey with perf iv's etc, hell can anyone even say they have a wish blissey at all?

If you think Wish Blissey is bad, try Growth Vaporeon in GSC. Ignoring finding with Growth with perfect IVs from an event. We are talking about a Pokemon event that happened over a decade ago on a game system which would of long ago ran out of batter power, so the Vaporeon would need to be traded back and forth every couple of years as the batter got replaced. At least with Blissey you can transfer it to new games.

Oh, also Growth Vaporeon was't popularized until after the generation was long over, making it even more unlikely that such a Vaporeon even ever was kept as no one had interest in it at the time.
 
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For those who may not have understood just what Princess Bubblegum was alluding to, she's talking about Growth Vaporeon, not Growl Vaporeon.

I don't have a particularly large amount of experience with Blissey, but is Wish / Aromatherapy / Toxic / Seismic Toss unreliable in any way? Are there threats that Blissey struggles to deal with as a consequence of dropping Softboiled? Does multi-tasking have any other consequences? You mention becoming a less reliable wall as a result of dropping Softboiled, but that seems kind of...vague? I know this is just a skeleton (so this is more or less about what you may or may not include in the final write-up) - how thorough do you plan on being about the pros and cons to doing that in the write-up?

As for Thunder Wave, I might mention that Thunder Wave is ideal for crippling Pokemon that would try to set-up on her ("Pokemon that Blissey cannot deal with herself" is kind of vague, but, I know that this is just a wip of a skeleton). Dragon Dance Weakness Policy Dragonite comes to mind, and while Blissey may not be able to effectively wear Volcarona down without Toxic, Thunder Wave is still good against sets that run Pashoo Berry or Leftovers, as this can allow would-be slower, more physically oriented Pokemon to prey on his weak Defense stat without fear of being outran and killed. Thunder Wave also has the option of crippling fast Pokemon that are immune to Toxic, like Genesect, Mega Lucario, and Crobat.

Toxic is also good for making opposing walls less reliable / more prone to switching, like Hippowdon, Jellicent, and Gourgiest. It can even be useful against Sylveon and Florges, as they will (eventually) have to waste a turn with Heal Bell or Aromatherapy, which can let you bring in some Pokemon unscathed. Your bullet points focus on Special Attackers and "crippling others", but I think it might help to be more specific.

I also think Mega Mawile might be worth mentioning in checks and counters. He runs enough speed to outpace Blissey, and un-boosted Play Rough does (70.5 - 83.1%) to 252 / 252 Bold, and Mawile can even run Substitute to set-up uninhibited on Blissey that carry Thunder Wave.

Other than that, form what little I know (and from what I've experienced playing against it), this skeleton looks good so far.

I just want to reiterate that I know this is just a WIP of a skeleton, and that you're probably going to cover all of this anyways, but I thought it couldn't hurt to bring it up.

Good luck!
 
I don't have a particularly large amount of experience with Blissey, but is Wish / Aromatherapy / Toxic / Seismic Toss unreliable in any way? Are there threats that Blissey struggles to deal with as a consequence of dropping Softboiled? Does multi-tasking have any other consequences? You mention becoming a less reliable wall as a result of dropping Softboiled, but that seems kind of...vague? I know this is just a skeleton (so this is more or less about what you may or may not include in the final write-up) - how thorough do you plan on being about the pros and cons to doing that in the write-up?

Wish by its self is terrible for recovery, especially for a Pokemon like Blissey whom is primarily a defensive Pokemon. You basically run into the problem where you need to heal your HP, but they will 2HKO you or switch in a physical attacker, in either case you are boned. This is why Soft-Boiled or Protect is a must with Wish, to reliably recover health. At least with Protect you can heal up the next turn if they aren't switching to a boosting physical Pokemon, which is one of the big downsides of Protect, if you need to recover but they send in Lucario, you are screwed.

I will talk about this more in the analysis its self, sorry about this miscommunication. I will consider your other things tomorrow (I had to sleep now).
 
Wish by its self is terrible for recovery, especially for a Pokemon like Blissey whom is primarily a defensive Pokemon. You basically run into the problem where you need to heal your HP, but they will 2HKO you or switch in a physical attacker, in either case you are boned. This is why Soft-Boiled or Protect is a must with Wish, to reliably recover health. At least with Protect you can heal up the next turn if they aren't switching to a boosting physical Pokemon, which is one of the big downsides of Protect, if you need to recover but they send in Lucario, you are screwed.

I will talk about this more in the analysis its self, sorry about this miscommunication. I will consider your other things tomorrow (I had to sleep now).
Also adding that Wish + Aromatherapy is illegal
 
Heal Bell and Aromatherapy no longer have any effective difference, unless this was changed in XY.

IIRC Heal Bell doesn't heal the status of pokes with the ability soundproof, though having never used a mon with this ability I'm unable to confirm whether or not this is true, especially in x and y.

I don't think Wish Blissey is bad per say, I just think it should be illegal due to its incredibly rare existence on any blissey outside of the emu. I'm just curious really as to why smogon allows it yet they know it doesn't really exist in any competitive play.

But, I know this is just a rough copy atm but I think it would be wise to include that if there is a weather inducer on the field, for example they want to use t-tar then blissey is supreme to chansey since leftoves cancels any residual weather damage. You mentioned leftovers is better you just didn't give a reason why :)
 
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:|

I am starting to realize that the checks and counters list isn't what it should be for this looking at some other threads.

Perhaps:
-Hard counters
-Pokemon which can usually switch in safely and force out
-Fighting-types and powerful physical Pokemon
-Psyshock users
-Taunt / Trick ~ what have you
-Pursuit and trapping

Any thoughts? I will refit this and the rest of the analysis tomorrow, as well as Chansey (with altered versions for the Pokemon or course)
 
IIRC Heal Bell doesn't heal the status of pokes with the ability soundproof, though having never used a mon with this ability I'm unable to confirm whether or not this is true, especially in x and y.

This was changed in Gen 5 so it went through Soundproof. While I can't confirm that it is still unaffected by Heal Bell, it is likely.
 
You forgot to slash Protect on Softboiled.

Also you should mention that Thunder Wave still cripples a bit Magic Guard users, loweing their speed (Well, Reuniclus doesn't care about that, but Clefable cares a bit.) and more importantly, potentially making them unable to attack.
 
You forgot to slash Protect on Softboiled.

I mentioned this before in this thread and the OP. I believe Protect should be a mention in the set and not actually in the slashing for various reasons: it leads people to run Wish without Protect or Soft-boiled 2. there are actual negatives with Protect which need to be addressed. I have no problem with Protect + Wish, I have used it myself, but it should not be the default option.

I will address Thunder Wave paralysis a bit more, but in reality this doesn't stop CM Reuniclus or Clefable, just bother them.
 
I don't think ferrothorn setting up spikes on blissey is as much as a problem as it leech seeding like 25% of its hp back each turn and just generally being able to stall blissey out. In fact leech seed itself is a good counter to blissey on any mon since it allows your opponents team use your support mon to support their team with free hp. This inevitably makes Trevenant a counter and gourgeist-super a soft counter since it has to be watch out for fire blasts if it doesn't invest in sp def.
 
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Small nitpick on EV spreads, the ultimate efficient EV spread for both blobs is 240HP / 252Def / 16SpD Calm in terms of overall stat points, I understand that Blissey really needs all the help she can get with her pitiful Def stat so if it ends up being in AC or not included at all I'm not too fussed.
 
Small nitpick on EV spreads, the ultimate efficient EV spread for both blobs is 240HP / 252Def / 16SpD Calm in terms of overall stat points

Mind expanding upon this? Because as is the slashed Calm nature and 4 HP / 252 Def / 252 Def have roughly the same bulk. Admittedly these benchmarks are a bit arbitrary, but what does this little bit of extra special defense here offer?

---

Honestly, I am thinking about de-slashing Thunder Wave on this and the Chansey analysis, its not that relevant as far as checks and counters go as its pretty and just adds an unnecessary level of description. Any thoughts here?
 
I think Thunder Wave should stay for Chansey at least, if only for Lucario, which is a very popular pokemon right now.
Lucario would love to switch in to non-Thunder Wave Chansey/Blissey, as it means free setup turns and free sweep.
Blissey carrying Flamethrower at least means Lucario's player need to sacrifice a pokemon before Lucario can come, so probably is not as necessary.
 
A couple of nit picks. I'm not QC, and I understand it's still only bulletpoints, so take these with a grain of salt.
Princess Bubblegum said:
Very weak to physical attacks, she will need ample teammate support on her physical side to work effectively.
I think you're underselling Blissey's bulk here. She definitely won't die to any old physical attack.
Princess Bubblegum said:
-As a special wall, Blissey faces stiff competition as a special wall this generation. Competing as a special wall Sylveon have similarly high special bulk with Fairy-typing and decent defense.
This doesn't sound right. Yes, there is competition due to typing, but does Sylveon really compare to Blissey's mammoth special bulk?
Princess Bubblegum said:
Assault Vest vest users like Tyranitar and Goodra are formidable special tanks
I wouldn't even mention these as their roles and purposes are vastly different.
 
Mind expanding upon this? Because as is the slashed Calm nature and 4 HP / 252 Def / 252 Def have roughly the same bulk. Admittedly these benchmarks are a bit arbitrary, but what does this little bit of extra special defense here offer?
I was just pointing out that this provides the most efficient use of EVs and nature in terms of overall stat points on both sides. I assume you are referring to a spread of 4 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpD and I will cover both natures. Comparing damage calcs using attacks of the same base power off the same offensive stat against both EV spreads:

252 Atk Abomasnow Avalanche vs. 4 HP / 252 Def Blissey: 306-361 (46.9 - 55.3%) -- 16.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Abomasnow Solar Beam vs. 4 HP / 252+ SpD Blissey: 91-108 (13.9 - 16.5%) -- possible 9HKO after Leftovers recovery
against
252 Atk Abomasnow Avalanche vs. 240 HP / 252 Def Blissey: 306-361 (43 - 50.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Abomasnow Solar Beam vs. 240 HP / 16+ SpD Blissey: 108-127 (15.1 - 17.8%) -- possible 9HKO after Leftovers recovery

Using the median values as averages, it can be calculated that 4 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpD Calm is about 8.2% bulkier on the special side but 240 HP / 252 Def / 16 SpD Calm is about 9.0% bulkier on the physical side. Now the same calcs against 4 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpD Bold Blissey:

252 Atk Abomasnow Avalanche vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 280-331 (42.9 - 50.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Abomasnow Solar Beam vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Blissey: 100-118 (15.3 - 18%) -- possible 8HKO after Leftovers recovery
against
252 Atk Abomasnow Avalanche vs. 240 HP / 252 Def Blissey: 306-361 (43 - 50.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Abomasnow Solar Beam vs. 240 HP / 16+ SpD Blissey: 108-127 (15.1 - 17.8%) -- possible 9HKO after Leftovers recovery

Using the same method, 4 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpD Bold is about 0.1% bulkier on the physical side but 240 HP / 252 Def / 16 SpD Calm is about 1.2% bulkier on the special side. My spread is more efficient and maximises defences on both sides, I think it should be one of the main EV spreads.
 
I'm not sure where you would mention this, but from my experience the easiest way to protect a Blissey (or Chansey) is to switch to a ghost type. With some decent prediction skills you can toxic with blissey then switch to a ghost type that the fighting types can't hit
 
I noticed that for Blissey's only attacking move in the set, it's a choice between Seismic Toss & Flamethrower. Isn't the only reason to use Blissey over Chansey is its higher Sp. Atk? In otherwords: shouldn't Flamethrower be the only choice/first slash?
 
I noticed that for Blissey's only attacking move in the set, it's a choice between Seismic Toss & Flamethrower. Isn't the only reason to use Blissey over Chansey is its higher Sp. Atk? In otherwords: shouldn't Flamethrower be the only choice/first slash?

No.

Blissey also has the advantage of having Leftovers which gives it better overall bulk. It also can function on sand teams.

Having a passable special attack is a secondary advantage. I can attest from using Blissey extensively, that there are definite disadvantages from Flamethrower (not countering Heatran is a big one) and Seismic Toss is the better overall option.
 
Just a tiny nitpic, but in the overview I'd mention that Psyshock and Secret Sword can break through Blissey. Solid analysis Bubblegum :]

QC APPROVED 1/3
 
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