Cacturne, climbing to OU?

[9voltdude]

Cacturne @ focus sash
seed bomb
sucker punch
sword dance
brick break/revenge
4 hp 252 atk 252 speed
adamant nature

well a thread popped up a while ago showing how good cacturne is with the above moveset, making it BL worthy. I have been using cacturne for a long time on shoddy and I think cacturne can be OU material. first I noticed I was rarely using counter, but rather using sword dance then sucker punching away and pokemon such as bliss, skarm, heatran, and magnezone where giving cact some problems, so I tried out both brick break and revenge instead of counter, which worked out very well for cacty.

but lets get to the point, the best way to describe how good a pokemon can be is with damage calcs....

brick break and revenge calcs

brick break on no HP heatran with 1 SD Damage: 97.52% - 114.86%
heatran really can give cacturne problems, if you sword dance on the switch, hang on with sash then you mite be able to kill it (always with stealth rock out), with revenge you will always kill it after a SD and taking a hit

brick break on 252 hp no def magnezone with 1 SD Damage: 85.47% - 100.58%
you can outrun magnezone and possibly kill it with brick break after a SD and if you don't KO it then next turn you can after taking a hit with FS. revenge will always kill it after a sword dance but it can outrun you and set up a sub, which you will just break. either way if you have FS and get a sword dance off then magne is screwed


brick break on max def and hp bold bliss with 1 SD Damage: 83.75% - 98.60%
if you have stealth rock and sandstorm going then this should always kill bliss, also after a sd you can OHKO it with revenge if it hits you with a stoss or ice beam without the hellp of sr or ss

revenge on max def max hp impish skarm no sd 11.68% - 13.77%
brick break on same skarm no sd Damage: 14.37% - 17.07%
I know, doesn't seem that imprisive, well remember that these calcs are without sword dance and if skarm uses roost or drill peck then revenges damage is doubled. cact can't do all that much to skarm, but its a lot better than trying to hit it with seed bomb or sucker punch.

seed bomb calcs

seed bomb on max def max hp impish swampert no sd OHKO
yes, even with a positive def nature and max def and hp swampert cannot take a seed bomb from cact. cacturne also outspeeds it.

seed bomb on max def max hp impish hippowdon no sd Damage: 66.47% - 78.24%
cacturne out speeds hippowdon and will OHKO it if sword dance is used, or just atk it twice with seed bomb, it also starts sandstorm for you so your sand veil could give you a free sword dance or two.

seed bomb on max def max hp impish donphan no sd Damage: 44.53% - 52.60%
with ice shard donphan can be a little bit of a problem for it, sr will help you OHKO it after a sword dance.

seed bomb on max hp max def impish rhyperrior no sd Damage: 74.65% - 87.79%
most rhyperior are adamant with max atk instead of def so seed bomb will OHKO those. also this calc mite be using the - 1/3 instead of 1/4 solid rock, so the damage could be even more

sucker punch calcs

sucker punch on azelf no sd OHKO
no azelf should be running any def or HP so it should always OHKO, you can even switch in on psychic

sucker punch on gengar no sd OHKO
gengar using hypnosis could give cacturne a problem, but thanks to sand veil this shouldn't be that much of a problem

sucker punch on alakazam no sd OHKO

sucker punch on standard salamence 1 sd Damage: 95.78% - 112.65%
with sandstorm going, stealth rock, or sala holding a life orb this will always KO. after one sword dance and taking an intimidate you need sr and ss to make sure it KOs

sucker punch on standard starmie OHKO
really nothing starmie can do against this other than holding a focus sash itself to get a hit on cact, which SR and SS fixes

sucker punch on max hp no def adamant gyaradoes 1 sd Damage: 81.47% - 95.94%
with SR this will KO gyara. it also likes to dragon dance to try to run you out of sucker punch PP, so you can get some free sword dances off these turns and remember seed bomb will do the same amount of damage as punch.

sucker punch on garchomp 1 sd Damage: 77.09% - 90.78%
garchomp can give cact problems if you don't get a sd off. if its holding life or or sword dances then it will help you out



well I would say thats enough damage calcs for now, I may add some more later. if your going to use cacturne then make sure you have a rapid spinner or a taunt lead (what I use) to help keep focus sash intact. this thing has swept teams for me mid game before and its really worth using. it also takes some predicting to use it, but if your good at predicting then cacturne will get you a lot of kills.

 

[Steven718]

Cacturne definitely seems under-rated, and not very under-used.

 

[The Over Used]

---
• switched in im cool (Charizard ?).
Mirage used Sucker Punch.
But it failed!
im cool used Belly Drum.
im cool lost 50% of its health.
im cool's attack was raised.
im cool's Salac Berry raised its speed!
---
Mirage used Sucker Punch.
But it failed!
im cool used Substitute.
But it failed!
---
Mirage used Sucker Punch.
But it failed!
im cool used Substitute.
But it failed!
---
Mirage used Sucker Punch.
But it failed!
im cool used Substitute.
But it failed!
---
im cool used Fire Punch.
It's super effective!
Mirage lost 730% of its health.
Mirage hung on using its Focus Sash!
Mirage used Swords Dance.
Mirage's attack was sharply raised.
---
Mirage used Sucker Punch.
But it failed!
im cool used Substitute.
But it failed!
---
Mirage used Sucker Punch.
But it failed!
im cool used Substitute.
But it failed!
---
Mirage used Sucker Punch.
But it failed!
im cool used Substitute.
But it failed!
---
im cool used Fire Punch.
It's super effective!
Mirage lost 693% of its health.
MarioSonic44's Mirage fainted.
---

Thats how to beat Cacturne.




But yeah I agree, Cacturne is at least decent and can stop sweeps from Azelf, etc fairly efficiently even if they know whats coming.

 

[Howls]

Cacturne is a pretty unique tool. But it can't really do much to stop Hypnogar or a dusknoir w/WoW or Toxic. And seeing as how this is the only truly viable way of using cacturne in OU, it won't be hard to out predict.

And you should note on the damage calculations that gyarados is normally the bulky variant so you should do that calc as well. Though I suspect it would still be a 2HKO.

It's BL material for sure but it doesn't pose that big of a threat for it to be taken from UU. It can be used effectively in OU for sure, but don't expect it to get put in that tier because it really does it's job equally well in UU where dark weaks aren't as common as OU.

 

[The Over Used]

Cacturne is a pretty unique tool. But it can't really do much to stop Hypnogar or a dusknoir w/WoW or Toxic. And seeing as how this is the only truly viable way of using cacturne in OU, it won't be hard to out predict. And you should note on the calcs that gyarados is normally the bulky variant so you should do that as well. Though I suspect it would still be a 2HKO. It's BL material for sure but it doesn't pose that big of a threat for it to be taken from UU. It can be used effectively in OU for sure, but don't expect it to get put in that tier because it really does it's job equally well in UU where dark weaks aren't as common as OU.

An alternate set to the norm is one with sub and brightpowder which I have also used... >_>

Gyarados/Charizard are both large threats, if they outpredict you you lose ... Unless of course you have Stealth Rock and appropriate counters.

 

[Lee]

Honestly, I find Cacturne to be awful. Ridiculously easy to outpredict, and even if you can't outpredict, he still goes down pretty easily. Good for catching new players by surprise, but otherwise, it's a waste of a team slot.

 

[teekay]

Yeah, the way I see it, the predictability of this set is going to hamper its usefulness, but I suppose the real way to tell will be if it starts running amuck in UU.

 

[sam_vinetz]

absol is in UU/BL, and is way better. base 130 atack+super luck? come on. even has psycho cut and fire blst.

 

[Pneuma]

Do keep in mind that Cacturne has that nifty Focus Sash and immunity to Sandstorm. It really is a world of difference.

I do only see him as BL though since he's way too buff for UU. Until every team has him, he'll stay BL.

 

[Chou Toshio]

Well, IF absol does get into BL (we'll see . . .) it doesn't have to worry about sandstorm/hail at all there, so . . . focus sash away.

Then again, having reliable fighting attacks makes Cacturne so much cooler . . .

Though honchkrow's got it's great special attack and hidden power fire to let it laugh at steel types. Again though, sandstorm immunity makes a huge difference . . . :/

 

[Deck Knight]

This set again?

Alright, let me explain to you why this set is so horrible.

All of these assume that you are starting against a Cacturne at full health that has not used Swords Dance yet.

3 Turn method 1:

X used generic attack.
Cacturne used Swords Dance.

X used Substitute.
Cacturne used Sucker Punch or Swords Dance.

X used generic attack.
Cacturne fainted!

3 turn method 2:

X used Toxic/Will-O-Wisp.
Cacturne used Swords Dance!

X used Substitute
Cacturne used Sucker Punch or Swords Dance

X used Generic SE attack
Cacturne fainted!

3 Turn method 3:

X used Toxic/Will-O-Wisp
Cacturne used Swords Dance

X switched to Salamence(Burn only) or Weezing/Skarmory.
Cacturne used Sucker Punch or Swords Dance.

Cacturne used Sucker Punch! (it did the most damage to Weezing.)
Salamence/Weezing/Skarmory used supereffictive attack!
Cacturne fainted!

3 Turn method 4:

X switched in Skarmory!
Cacturne used Swords Dance!

Skarmory used Spikes/Stealth Rock!
Spikes were scattered around the opponents field!
Cacturne used Sucker Punch or Swords Dance (or switched to a spinner if they know what's good for them)

Cacturne used Sucker Punch or Brick Break! (failed or crap damage)
Skarmory used Whirlwind!
(Other pokemon) was dragged out by Whirlwind, takes SR damage.

2 Turn method 1:

X used Fake Out!
Cacturne flinched!

Cacturne used Sucker Punch (did reasonable damage, unless its a fighting or dark type.)
X used SE attack!
Cacturne fainted!

2 turn method 2:

X (with 210+ speed) used SE attack!
Cacturne used Swords Dance!

X (with 210+ speed) used priority move!
Cacturne fainted!

2 turn method 3:

X (with 210+ Speed) used Ice Shard!
Cacturne used Swords Dance!

X (with 210 + Speed used Ice Shard!
Cacturne fainted!

Pokemon that always win if they start against it:

Honchkrow, Skuntank, Drapion, Heatran, Infernape, Blaziken, Salamence, Toxicroak, Heracross, Weezing, Skarmory.

Pokemon that always win if they are in before a Swords Dance (Cacturne full HP) or after 1 SD with Cacturne having taken damage:

Salamence, Toxicroak, Heracross, Weezing, Skarmory.

Pokemon that wall this entirely:

Skarmory.

So basically, if your pokemon has Substitute and can deal 51% damage to Cacturne, you beat this taking miniscule damage. If you can knock it down to low HP, are faster, and have a priority move, you win. If your pokemon's species is Skarmory, you win.

I will say though, that this is an awesome counter lead to Hippowdon. Its a free evasion boost and usually a free or low cost Swords Dance. TTar leads are less free, but the non-DD or max speed CB ones get owned by BB.

Oh, one last note: DO NOT USE REVENGE. It has a negative priority modifier, Cacturne WILL be killed.

I really love Cacturne, but I find this set to be almost as gimmicky as that FEAR crap that came around earlier. Every pokemon has a set that a select few pokemon wall, but Cacturne is so fragile that it gets beaten by certain tactics.

 

[TheMantyke]

My post was not of value

 

[chimpact]

You pretty much stated what Deck Knight said, but he went into more detail.a

 

[sa17dk]

The main problem with this set, other than the fact that it gets raped by all of the things Deck Knight stated, is that this set is way too predictable and doesnt have much to offer with its predictability.

For example, for a thing like Skarmory, everyone already knows that 90% of the time it's gonna be using the typical pHaze, spikes/SR, attack, roost set. However, unlike Sucker Punch, theres no real way of "outpredicting" Whirlwind (other than the obvious Magnezone), whereas the opponent can play mind games with you as you try to Sucker Punch them.

Secondly, if youre gonna be predictable, the set better be damn good and not rely on the opponent to work effectively. For example, Specsmence, unlike Cacturne, rapes the fuck out of shit whether or not the opponent "decides to attack". Yes I realize that Mence is unpredictable in what moveset its gonna use but for this example lets assume that all Mences are Specs'd.