CAP 10 CAP 10 - Part 11a - Non-Attacking Moves Discussion

[beej]

Name: Utility Counter
General Description: This Pokemon is capable of being customized to counter virtually any specific Pokemon, but is incapable of countering a large number of Pokemon at the same time.
Justification: It is not unusual for people to say that "versatility is broken" from an offensive standpoint; less attention is given to versatile defensive Pokemon such as Zapdos or Hariyama. This Pokemon would allow us to study the impact of having a Pokemon that is capable of dealing with such varied threats as Salamence, Lucario, and Gengar....but not all at once.
Questions To Be Answered:
--How useful is defensive versatility in a metagame with so many different threats to account for?
--Given the existence of a Pokemon that can hard counter only specific major threats, which threats will be prepared for the most?
--How would team building change if certain difficult-to-prepare-for threats became easier to prepare for?
--Which is more useful, a Pokemon that can somewhat handle a wide range of threats, or a Pokemon that can handle a few threats extremely well?

Name: Krilowatt
Typing: Water/Electric
Stat Spread: 151/84/73/83/74/105
Ability: Trace
Ability: Magic Guard

Now that we've voted on what attacking moves are going to be allowed in movepool submissions, we must now follow the same step for non-attacking moves. This step will be used to decide what non-attacking moves will be allowed onto this Pokemon. Non-attacking moves are defined by this post. THIS is where we would be handling moves like Knock Off and Rapid Spin.

Suggested moves will be placed into one of four categories depending on how the discussion goes. Allowed moves will be automatically allowed into the movepool submissions later on. Disallowed moves are outright banned from this Pokemon. Controversial moves will be put into a poll at the end of this discussion, to see if they'll be allowed or not. I put some moves into categories already. They aren't necessarily there permanently, but they won't change unless you post in an attempt to sway me.

Again, here is the list of non-attacking moves we're looking at here: *

Allowed

Toxic
Thunder Wave
Perish Song
Mirror Coat
Counter
Haze
Psych Up
Power Trick
Imprison
Magnet Rise
Power Swap
Substitute
Snatch
Magic Coat
Rain Dance

Controversial

Heart Swap
Aqua Ring
Encore
Transform
Metal Sound

Disallowed

*Stat boosting moves of any kind (Swords Dance, Agility, Cosmic Power, etc.)*
*Entry hazards (Spikes, Toxic Spikes, Stealth Rock)*
*The screens (Light Screen, Reflect)*
Recover
Wish
Pain Split
Memento
Lunar Dance
Taunt
Rapid Spin
Recover
Baton Pass
Psycho Shift
Will-O-Wisp
Whirlwind
Destiny Bond
Trick Room
Trick
Heal Block
Morning Sun
Yawn

We should be able to deal with most individual threats when this is customized, but unless we give this Pokemon very specific moves to beat them, these defensive Pokemon should do pretty well: Blissey, Snorlax, Swampert, Celebi, Bronzong, Cresselia, Dusknoir.

The Rules

• The list of moves in this post will serve as the single point-of-reference for the current state of the discussion.

• Post arguments for moves to be Allowed or Disallowed from the Pokemon's final movepool. All posts should be presented with reasoning.

• Posting lists of moves is strictly prohibited. Do not copy the TL's list, and then add "Yes/No" or a similarly worthless comment, beside each one. Posts that contain lists of moves will be deleted, even if the post contains additional reasoning and content.

• The Topic Leader will update the list continuously throughout the discussion, using recent posts to determine changes to the move list. Moves may have a fluctuating status as the community debates for or against the move in response to changes in the OP.

• Posts should be based on the current state of the list in the OP. It is the responsibility of each member to check the OP before making any post in the thread. Posts that demonstrate lack of familiarity with the current OP will be deleted.

• The Topic Leader is the sole arbiter for determining "general community consensus". The TL may ignore arguments for or against certain moves, if they feel the argument is not presented with sufficient evidence or reasoning. Do not assume that the existence of a few dissenting posts will ensure that a move will be categorized as Controversial.

• All moves that are considered Competitive for this Pokemon are included in the list in the OP. Non-Competitive moves should not be discussed in this thread, unless you feel they are incorrectly categorized and should be considered Competitive (see next rule).

• If you disagree with the TL's categorization of a move as Competitive or Non-Competitive, you can post arguments in this thread, but reasoning must be supplied.

• Do NOT post flavor arguments for allowing moves. Like everything else within this CAP, the move discussion is held on a competitive basis. Don't post "we should allow x because it works with the artwork", seriously OR jokingly.

We're at the last part of the Pokemon here. You should know the drill by now. Don't hog the thread, don't post ridiculous amounts of theorymon, and don't whine about things and be negative. It won't be tolerated.

Remember to only discuss moves that you think are controversial in that they have competitive merit. Now go!

 

[Gothic Togekiss]

I just want to say this, no recovery moves other than Rest. Don't want this to be some wall-ish Pokemon now. I also want to say no sleep inducing move like Hypnosis or Spore, those would be too much on Krilowatt (I just love that name).

 

[Fuzznip]

Ban Psycho Shift.

I don't see how Psycho Shift is remotely unbroken. Psycho Shit paired with Magic Guard is just calling for a status abuser. It will take no damage from burn or poison and can just constantly spread around status everywhere with its great bulk. Also, the only Pokemon immune to burn, which will probably be the more prominent status used, are Fire-types like Heatran, who is nailed by a super effective Surf. This is just a terrifying combination that is hard to bypass.

Suggesting Heart Swap.

I found Heart Swap a pretty interesting move Krilowatt can take advantage of. For those of you who don't know, Heart Swap is a move that switches around any stat boosts or drops between the two Pokemon. What this means is that Krilowatt can potentially become a great counter to many boosting threats. For example, Krilowatt can steal Calm Mind boosts from Suicune, Dragon Dance boosts from Gyarados, etc. This is a pretty neat way to deal with specific threats. Also, should Krilowatt get Superpower, it can effectively deal with Blissey. How? It's easy. Simply Superpower it first turn as she heals herself, then use Heart Swap and return with another Superpower. Blissey will be at -1 Defense, so she will take way more damage. So really, Heart Swap is a move that is only to be used in very specific scenarios, which I thought contributed to the whole "can counter certain things but not others".

All I got to say for now.

 

[Banryu]

I say Ban Will-O-Wisp. Most of the things it wants to take care of with Wisp are handled by its offensive moves, and the purpose of CAP-10 is not to make it a tank or a wall, which is what Wisp is primarily used in sets for. Wisp allows it to shut down a wide range of things (IE, anything that relies exclusively on physical moves and doesn't Restalk) with a single moveslot, which I kind of feel like goes against the concept.

I'm also seconding Fuzznip's argument for banning Psycho Shift.
-EDIT- I think Rising Dusk just added some good points as to why this should be banned. :0 I'm kind of surprised he wants to put it in controversial instead of banning it outright after what he said...

I'm in favor of allowing Counter and/or Mirror Coat. These are very situational moves that require a great deal of prediction to use, in addition to being sort of a one-time thing without any means of reliable recovery. So while they can be used to counter a wide range of threats, there is a cost associated with them, and I think these fit Kril's concept very well.

Imprison is kind of intriguing. It might allow it to beat Zapdos, BoltBeam (with HP Ice) variations of Jolteon and Magnezone, as well as anything that has Earthquake (assuming Krilowatt still gets it). It's extremely situational, but could it be considered too good....? I'm not sure. Then again, it might be interesting to see someone actually capable of viably using this in OU. I'll wait to see what others say about it before saying allow or disallow.

 

[Rising_Dusk]

Going to move for Spikes, Stealth Rock, and Toxic Spikes to all be disallowed. This is pretty self-explanatory, as it is a significant thing that Krilowatt could set up. Also, throwing this out there... Swords Dance, Nasty Plot, Tail Glow, Dragon Dance, Calm Mind, Belly Drum, Bulk Up, Cosmic Power, Amnesia, Acupressure, Iron Defense, Stockpile, Agility, and Rock Polish should all be disallowed. Really, no question there, CAP10 should not be setting up for a sweep or to become a super-wall.

Pushing for Trick to be disallowed. It should not be able to carry Flame Orbs, Toxic Orbs, or Choice Items and dump them on whatever its first switch-in happens to be. (Especially since they're all not fond of being choice-locked)

Will-O-Wisp is good as controversial. Let me also throw Psycho Shift into controversial. Psycho Shift is incredibly dangerous because it can let Krilowatt carry a 100% burn move alongside status immunity when wielding a Flame Orb. However, burn doesn't really hurt Celebi or Shaymin or Blissey all that much. Of the list of checks, only Swampert and those Ground-types hate the burn. It's because of that that a case can be made either way, so it should be controversial.

Imprison for allowed. The move is barely competitive anyways with it taking a move slot, but the effects of the move bleed utility counter. It's perfect for a flavor move, if anything.

Mirror Coat and Counter for allowed. These moves are purely reactive, and if one of its targets decides to attack it, can let Krilowatt maim them in response. It in no way would push Krilowatt over the edge, and more or less will probably be used only for a gimmick set.

HEART SWAP (And Power/Guard Swap) FOR ALLOWED! The ability to steal boosts from opponents who set up on you is an excellent way to counter them. Furthermore, this is better than Power Swap and Guard Swap, which should also be allowed, so it would actually be potentially viable. Similar to this, Haze for allowed, same for Psych Up.

Aqua Ring for allowed. Only recovery move I'm okay with on this 'mon, just because it will never be used. Aqua Ring rewards CAP10 staying in for multiple turns, something it will likely be incapable of doing with its counters jumping out as soon as it's seen. It'll generally net, at most, 12% healing for CAP10, something far worse than Recover. Rest for allowed as well, since let's face it, sleeping for 2 turns is fair in exchange for a full heal.

Speaking of which, Recover, Slack Off, Roost, Wish, Softboiled, and Milk Drink for disallowed. It gives CAP10 too much staying power and sets it up to be just way too ridiculous, especially given its defensive prowess and amazing abilities. I can elaborate on my thoughts on this if it's really necessary, though I feel most people will agree with me here.

Light Screen and Reflect should be disallowed. Despite them reducing damage taken, they function for your team, and Krilowatt would make an excellent dual screener with its ability to switch into hazards with Magic Guard. They also are too much of a setup for Krilowatt, as it shouldn't be setting up.

Whirlwind and Roar for allowed. Krilowatt's ability to PHaze critical threats is practically necessary for it to counter some threats if it can't kill them. It fits into the role perfectly and definitely won't be too much on any Krilowatt set.

Perish Song for allowed. Okay, this move allows Krilowatt to counter the last Pokemon while also allowing CAP10 to scare out basically any other Pokemon that it might run into. It won't be doing anything too ridiculous anywhere, since I am advocating Block, Spider Web, and Mean Look for disallowed. These are the only 100% trapping moves, and they should be disallowed as they don't fit the concept. Anything CAP10 counters will switch out immediately, Perish Song trapping things like Blissey or other would-be counters reliably bothers me. Whirlpool for allowed. 70% accuracy and a 2-5 turn limit makes it fair, since its unreliability will keep it from definitely overtaking would-be counters.

That's all I wanted to address at the moment. Cheers.

 

[Umbreon Dan]

i agree that psycho shift should be banned, as well as recovery moves and stat-up moves. and i like the idea of heart swap!

i want to argue for both light screen and reflect. these moves will never be broken on pretty much anything, but i think they could really help this cap be a specific counter to certain threats by running the right type of screen. will it actually do so? i have no idea, but it couldn't hurt to find out.

magnet rise might as well be allowed. nobody's going to seriously use it, but it might be handy against the occasional mamoswine or heatran or something.

entry hazards should obviously be unallowed. they're so completely anti-concept that i don't think anything needs to be said, lol.

haze for allowed, basically the same argument as heart swap.

perish song should also be allowed, as it would make this cap the perfect counter to CM jirachi, crocune, snorlax, cursetar, cursebreon and friends.

 

[Bamce]

Disallowed

any 50% heal move

Pyscho shift
With magic guard being the likely more popular ablity we don't need toxic/flame orbs turned into weapons.

Rain dance
Don't really feel we need another fast, solid linchpin for rain dance teams

Roar/ww
see haze later

Hazards
Just no. Too many things have the capablity to do this we don't need another.

Trick
Being choice locked should be a problem not a weapon.

Allowed

Aqua ring
Mostly useless anyway.

Haze
Needing something to deal with stat uppers. Roar and WW might have too much utility to offer. Haze seems to reach a middle ground. Perhaps a signiture move that erases all stat changes on both sides. (including leech seed and aqua ring etc)

Screens
I like this idea.

Imprision
Won't see much use but would help However it does help fit customisation.

Trick Room
Need more solid trick roomers. Also would turn his good speed into more of a negative.

Will edit or reply with more as I think of them.

 

[Gothic Togekiss]

Going to move for Spikes, Stealth Rock, and Toxic Spikes to all be disallowed. This is pretty self-explanatory, as it is a significant thing that Krilowatt could set up. Also, throwing this out there... Swords Dance, Nasty Plot, Tail Glow, Dragon Dance, Calm Mind, Belly Drum, Bulk Up, Cosmic Power, Amnesia, Iron Defense, Stockpile, Agility, and Rock Polish should all be disallowed. Really, no question there, CAP10 should not be setting up for a sweep or to become a super-wall.

Holy Crap how did I forgot about those things. I completely agree with you on this one, also you forgot Acupressure. Random or not, +2 on any stat is really a no-no on Krilowatt.

Edit: I finally remember what I wanted to add. Wish should be disallowed on the count of it turning K-watt into some kind of wish-passer, something that wasn't part of the concept.

 

[Shock Trooper]

I'm surprised that Knock Off hasn't been mentioned. I'm pushing for it to be allowed because it helps cripple things that it is supposed to counter, whether taking away choice items or boosting items (Life Orb). I guess you could push that it also cripples stuff like Lax and Blissey by nullifying Leftovers, but I really feel that the amount it helps against the offensive counters should be enough to allow it.

 

[zyrefredric]

adding Stockpile for stat-ups to be disallowed..

i strongly agree any stat-up moves should be disallowed, but how about the stat-reducing moves like Fake Tears, Tickle, Featherdance, Screech, Cotton Spore, Scary Face, Charm, Captivate, etc? (flavorful moves underlined) i would love for them to be of great competitive use, and as of the moment i'm undecided if they would prove "broken", or if it has no significance to the concept at hand.

 

[pkmn-taicho321]

Haven't seen Encore mentioned. For a speedy fella like him encoring a stat up could be his best way of 'countering' a good deal of threats. Also encoring a resisted attack or some other non-damaging moves gives Krilowatt a chance to 'set up'

I also think Howl, while normally an inferior option, gives Krilowatt a chance to hit hard(er) yet restricts him from being a sweeper. +1 is by no means fearsome, but it does help and it lets us use something other than Life Orb on offensively minded sets without completely crippling him.

On the same line of thought I think Growth should be allowed.

 

[Xiom]

I would like Screens to be alowed.

I relise it might make it to a dual screener, but I don't think thats too big of a problem. On second thought, I'll say they should be dissallowed. They aren't that different from amnesia iron defence etc. and stat upping isn't something id like to see on this cap.

But then again, I have no problem seeing 1 of the 2 (possibly both seperated by egg move) on it without doing too much.

Macic Coat I'd say should be allowed alongside of counter, it wont break the cap and might be used on some sets.

 

[familyguyman]

I'm surprised that Knock Off hasn't been mentioned. I'm pushing for it to be allowed because it helps cripple things that it is supposed to counter, whether taking away choice items or boosting items (Life Orb). I guess you could push that it also cripples stuff like Lax and Blissey by nullifying Leftovers, but I really feel that the amount it helps against the offensive counters should be enough to allow it.

I'm going to agree. Knock Off should definitely be allowed as it is a key factor in countering Choice users, some LO sweepers who can't kill you first and it's generally frustrating for Leftover users. Of course this costs you a coverage move but that only serves to make Krilowatt's scope limited by effective.

Also, what about trapping moves like Mean Look or Block or Spider Web, or even something like Wrap or Magma Storm (though I don't know how that's classified)? Those can be very useful, especially if you can catch what you've designed Krilowatt to counter. Potentially, when Krilowatt makes it's first appearance in battle, your opponent will have to guess if you are going to hard counter their current Pokemon, say Salamence, or not. Maybe you are going for a fake out and are prepped for the common switch in partner, say Bronzong. Now with Mean Look, you've caught him and can dismantle him with ease. Furthermore, Perish Trapping can be very useful if you've EV'd Krilowatt to take on a specific threat as it guarantees success (barring U-Turn and the like). Once the jig is up, Krilowatt will have done his job of assassinating his target.

 

[Xiom]

I don't want to see mean look or spiderwed alongside Perish Song, allthough whirpool is an option. 2-5 turns balances it.

Whirpool Allowed

 

[Doomsday94]

Quite surprised this hasn't been mentioned yet:

Taunt for allowed.

Taunt will allow Krilowatt to stop threats it wants to counter setting up, making it easier for it to be stopped. It would also help against things that like to heal themselves, but would require the moveset to stop them (things like Blissey).

 

[Rising_Dusk]

Pushing for Encore to be controversial. Encore is a move that doesn't necessarily counter a Pokemon, but rather gives you a turn to set up a strategy of some sort. This is best seen in another CAP we've already worked with at base 105 speed, Fidgit. He will come in on something nonthreatening, Encore, and spill out entry hazards. Krilowatt neither has access to entry hazards and it's looking to lack any sort of setup moves either. In lieu of this, the case can be made that it's really not even competitive on Krilowatt, but yet we can't deny that it gives Krilowatt the perfect opportunity to execute some strategy - whatever it is. If we do end up permitting dual screens, then Encore should definitely be disallowed to compensate.

Speaking of which, Light Screen and Reflect should be controversial. I can see how they might help you stop a sweep from something deadly, even giving you excellent assurance against sweepers you can't normally stop in Metagross. However, despite that, you are setting up something that your team may be able to abuse, which is against Krilowatt's concept. I lean towards disallow, but I think it should be discussed further and stand at controversial for the moment.

One more option I'm going to defend here is Destiny Bond, which I think should be allowed. When you've finished your job, maybe you can counter some other Pokemon in Krilowatt's dying breath by bringing it with you. Regardless, it won't be broken on Krilowatt and might end up being cool on some sets. For this reason, let's see it be allowed.

Also, yeah, throwing down a moratorium on sleep inducing moves, they shouldn't be allowed. I really shouldn't have to explain this beyond that sleeping your opponent's check to Krilowatt forces them to carry multiple, which is over the top.

I also think Howl, while normally an inferior option, gives Krilowatt a chance to hit hard(er) yet restricts him from being a sweeper. +1 is by no means fearsome, but it does help and it lets us use something other than Life Orb on offensively minded sets without completely crippling him.

On the same line of thought I think Growth should be allowed.

Krilowatt at +1 hits respectably hard, and God help us if you get +2. Honestly, there is no reason we should allow these moves. They serve no purpose at all for Krilowatt to execute its strategy of countering something, and serve only to set Krilowatt up for an eventual sweep.

Charge Beam was banned for exactly this reason, and I see no reason why Howl or Growth would not be disallowed in a similar vein.

 

[Daniel Craig]

I am against 50% recovery, physco shift and double screens as it turns it into such a wall

I'm also strongly against wish roar and whirlwind as it turns Krilowatt into a PHazer/wish passer/or Utility to a lesser extent
Honestly I am strongly FOR it getting sand tomb on its level up moves (because its from a beach and adds more originality to its moveset) also its unaccaruate, unreliable and incredibly situatuional and i knwo it will probably get whirlpool but i think it should also get sand tomb nuf said

Sand Tomb > Whirlpool

 

[zarator]

Rain Dance for Allowed: Even a Pokémon like Kingdra, which is arguably built to be the perfect Rain Sweeper, is used outside of Rain very often in OU (check Doug's team mate statistic to confirm this - neither Ludicolo nor Kabutops have more than 35% usage along him). Rain Dance would give RD teams a welcome boost (very much needed since atm with Latias, Tyranitar and friends around, Rain is really difficult to pull off in OU), and would give CAP10 an interesting but not overshadowing niche (whereas more direct boosting moves like Swords Dance or Nasty Plot clearly would).

Will-o-Wisp for Disallowed: Too many Pokémon would get istantly shut down by this move. I'd prefer CAP10 to resort to alternate methods to deal with physical attackers (Magnet Rise for Metagross, Heart Swap for Lucario and so on).

 

[noobiess]

I would sertainly alow magic coat. Makes him ables to not get paralyzed sometimes wich is a crutial thing for this one.

I would disallow counter and heart swap. Counter just does'nt feel right. iI don't really see a shrimp doing that move. I would dissallow heart swap, It would become too defensive and that wasn't the purpose. For the same reason I disallow rest and all the other moves that restore HP. 6% each turn is the max he should get (with lefties of course :p)

will-o-wisp should be dissalowed. Pokemon like swarpert should be able to counter it without getting burned.

Trick should be dissalowed. There will be soo much with choise scarf/trick wich isn't really the purpose.

also reflect,light screen should be dissalowed. With such a high HP, that would become too dangerous.
spikes,toxic spikes, stealth rock should also be dissalowed. There are already too much pokemon setting up those enooying things.

wirlpool should be allowed. Completely agree with rising dusk. But maybe sand tomb is more intresting, because tho opponent is able to block this move with levitating/flying-typed pokemon.

roar and wirlwind should be allowed,even though I don't think It would be commonly used.

 

[IronTusk]

I think Whirlwind should be allowed. I agree that Krilowatt shouldn't be a wall, nor should it sweep. However, I think the ability to phaze fits into its utility counter concept. Honestly I don't picture many sets running Whirlwind/Roar, but I'd like the option to be there.

 

[smallvizier]

A starting point: Krilowatt should be able to prepare for almost any specific threat, but incapable of countering a large number of pokemon at the same time.

This makes non-attacking moves tricky, because they always help against a wide variety of pokemon. We should avoid moves which (i) vastly expand Krilowatt's match-ups, or (ii) significantly help the other members of her team. Krilowatt should often be forced to run away!

@zyrefredric, I agree that I would love to see Screech, Scary Face et al. experimented with at some point. However I don't think this is the right pokemon... armed with FeatherDance, Krilowatt could face down a far wider variety of physical threats. This fails test (i). Disallow.

Light Screen and Reflect should be disallowed for the same reason. They would also be too easy to set up for a pokemon which will often force switches.

@Issaaacc, yes: disallow Roar and Whirlwind. As I said, Krilowatt should have to run away - not be able to force the opponent out. Allow Haze, though.

Are there any non-attacking moves which are actually suitable for Krilowatt? Yes... but basically, those which are less powerful. Aqua Jet, Whirlpool, perhaps Growl, String Shot and similar. Counter and Mirror Coat I'm unsure because they require prediction, and even if successful entail a huge cost. On the other hand, they would allow Krilowatt to stand up a little too easily to slight pokemon which could otherwise 2HKO it.

Allow Magnet Rise which fits the concept perfectly. Allow Rain Dance? because that certainly caters to a specific strategy (and it doesn't just allow her to sweep). Allow Charge, Imprison, Miracle Eye and Defense Curl.

EDIT @hailflameblast: Good arguments. Agree to allow Embargo, Worry Seed, Knock-Off. I'm not so sure about Pain Split. Krilowatt will *usually* have more HP than her opponents, but the exceptions include some of the walls we don't really want her taking down. Taunt is really dependent on the rest of its moveset... I guess I'd put it as 'controversial.'

 

[Destiny Warrior]

Seeing as I'm actually fast on this, I'd like to first of all sugsest a few moves:

Embargo-Countering doen't necessarily mean 0HKOing it. If we come in after a CB Mence KOs, we can use Embargo to either cripple it or the incoming Pokemon, allowing us to force a switch. This would be backed by no access to Spikes, Toxic Spikes and Stealth Rock, as that would be too broken.

Pain Split-Really, we have so much HP, this will be highly situational(unlike Recover and friends). Its only for specialized cases such as when we come in on a +1/+2 LO Cune's HP Electric, and cripple it by stealing a lot of HP, forcing a switch, which is the essence of our Utility Counter. For most of the time, Krilowatt will be having more HP than the opponent's Pokemon, making Pain Split useless in those cases.

Worry Seed-Again, removing useful abilities is a great way of stopping something. For example, you use Worry Seed on an AgilitySubPetaya Empoleon which has no Sub up, letting us negate his Torrent boost, forcing a switch. Again, its situational, as it mainly targets those Pokemon which get a boost from their ability.

Now moving onto the already listed moves:-

Taunt-We need this move for stopping setup sweepers(especially specially based ones that can't be stopped by WoW), as Heart Swap is not exactly the most reliable way to stop switching pokemon(who might be our target).

Will-O-Wisp- Allow it, it helps us stop those physically based Pokemon.

Knock Off- See above, removing items is great for stopping sweepers.

 

[Rhys29]

Encore is controversial but as long as we stick to the concept it should be fine. Since things like Light Screen and Reflect should be avoided to stop it from being much of team support its only use would be to initiate a nice switch for another member while shutting down a threat. The main issue is how well it sets up another member of the team. I would like to see Encore but its understandable if it is an issue.

Will-O-Wisp shouldn't be in the movepool. A Water/Electric type using WoW is something only Blissey, Celebi, and Shaymin can effectively switch into and only two of these can actually pose a threat to CAP10. There are other means of taking down physical threats without resorting to Burns. For example Magnet Rise is generally useless unless one is very concerned about Earthquake and helps protect against specific threats but not countering just about every physical threat out there. Calculations have already proven CAP10 has plenty of Defense to counter every physical threat that its typing will let it in the metagame.

Heart Swap and Psycho Shift should not be allowed. Since we are straight up avoiding stat boosting moves, why are we now alowing stat stealing moves? Heart Swap not only counters threats like Swords Dance Lucario or Scizor, but CAP10 has a free shot at sweeping immediately afterwards. So far we've steered clear of stat boosts to deal with threats so we shouldn't start now even if the move is somewhat situational. CAP10 is designed to be situational. Heart Swap should not be included and Psych Up should be controversial.

Roar should be controversial. And if we have Roar it is not only more limiting than Whirlwind but we have little to no use for it. It's nice that CAP10 can Roar out an opponent to remove their stat boosts but Roar can easily be taken too far. CAP10 would be one of the fastest Roarers in the teir, and would have amazing bulk, typing, and ability to add to it. Haze works to some extent but it doesn't work at forcing certain threats like CurseLax or CM Cune out. Haze/Perish Song covers this effect to some extent, though taking 3 turns to do something that can be done in 1 is counterproductive.

Pain Split for disallowed. High base HP and no need for recovery on something such as Magic Guard CAP10 makes it basically a useless, unneeded advantage.

Magic Coat I don't see much use in other than Trace. You can bait certain moves like WoW or Toxic. However Magic Guard has essentially no use for it. I don't see why not but I don't see much use for it regardless.

Aqua Ring is not necessary and thus should be disallowed. I believe the point was the avoid giving CAP10 the ability to stay in for many turns at a time to make sure it can't counter too many threats. Sets like Substitute/Aqua Ring/Toxic/Surf are dangerous as a stalling tactic and derails from the point of CAP10. Speaking of which...

Substitute should be disallowed. Substitute does not help against any specific counter that I am aware of. Unless one is brought to light it should be avoided.

Counter is more acceptable than Mirror Coat however both are quite dangerous. High HP and solid defenses means large chunks of damage will mean an instant KO to whatever unleashed the attack. Mirror Coat is more dangerous than Counter simply because the most reliable way so far to counter CAP10 is to hit it with a powerful STAB Grass Knot from the likes of Celebi or Seed Flare from Shaymin (I know these aren't the only counters but they are the most solid). Since CAP10 wouldn't have too much of an issue surviving these attacks (offensive Shaymin is questionable but since Celebi is very commonly defensive with low to no Sp.A investment it really won't be tough) it can OHKO with Mirror Coat. The same goes for Earthquake and Counter. I'd rather not give CAP10 something unnecessary which gives it potential to take down its counters. Unless there is several threats that are necessary for CAP10 to beat that can only be taken down with the addition of Counter and/or Mirror Coat I see no need in them.

 

[Objection]

I have to admit, I'm finding it really hard to keep track of the discussion going on here, so here's my novel idea: put every non-attacking competitive move into one (or possibly more) of several groups, decide which groups are good for the concept and which are bad for the concept, and ban all the moves in the bad groups whilst allowing all the moves in the good groups. Here are some ideas for groups:

• Stat-boosting moves (ie, moves that raise CAP10's stats)
• Stat-reducing moves (ie, moves that reduce the opponent's stats)
• Poisoning moves
• Burning moves
• Sleeping moves
• Paralysing moves
• Pseudo-status moves (eg, Attract, Confuse Ray)
• Recovery moves

I know that this list is not complete and there may be better ways of grouping moves, so feel free to suggest additions, changes and removals.

 

[smallvizier]

Aqua Ring is not necessary and thus should be disallowed. I believe the point was the avoid giving CAP10 the ability to stay in for many turns at a time to make sure it can't counter too many threats. Sets like Substitute/Aqua Ring/Toxic/Surf are dangerous as a stalling tactic and derails from the point of CAP10. Speaking of which...

Aqua Ring is not particularly powerful, and so it should be up to the moveset creator whether it's included - i.e. it should be allowed. The set you mention is not an issue, as nobody has suggested giving it Subsitute.