CAP 10 CAP 10 - Part 3 - Secondary Typing Poll 1

[beej]

Here you will vote for the secondary typing for CAP 10. Please remember that posts like "I voted for x" aren't allowed. This is very much so a discussion thread and I expect to see a lot of substance in your posts.

Our CAP so far:

Name: Utility Counter
General Description: This Pokemon is capable of being customized to counter virtually any specific Pokemon, but is incapable of countering a large number of Pokemon at the same time.
Justification: It is not unusual for people to say that "versatility is broken" from an offensive standpoint; less attention is given to versatile defensive Pokemon such as Zapdos or Hariyama. This Pokemon would allow us to study the impact of having a Pokemon that is capable of dealing with such varied threats as Salamence, Lucario, and Gengar....but not all at once.
Questions To Be Answered:
--How useful is defensive versatility in a metagame with so many different threats to account for?
--Given the existence of a Pokemon that can hard counter only specific major threats, which threats will be prepared for the most?
--How would team building change if certain difficult-to-prepare-for threats became easier to prepare for?
--Which is more useful, a Pokemon that can somewhat handle a wide range of threats, or a Pokemon that can handle a few threats extremely well?

Main Typing: Electric

After much pondering, discussing and listening to people make their cases on both IRC and in the typing discussion, I have narrowed down the final slate to a simple choice between Water and Poison. I'm aware of the fact that Fighting was popular, but it had pretty much nothing going for it that the other two types don't have really. It maintains the Ground weakness and only gains resistance to Rock, Dark and Bug for the most part. Very powerful Rock and Dark attacks are only really used by Tyranitar, whereas the most common strong Bug attack is U-Turn, which is not something you counter because it's effectively a free damage move. For these reasons, I felt that it wasn't worth it to include it in the poll for basically the same exact reason that I felt it wasn't a good idea to include NST. Out of these two choices, what will make the best Utility Counter?

This poll will be closed at 1:20 AM, EST, March 17.

 

[Umbreon Dan]

Some of you might be thinking "Levitate blah blah" in defense of Poison, but I think we need to keep both abilities open if we really want to make this CAP a versatile counter. Water's weaknesses are not a serious issue the way Poison's are, which is why I voted Water.

Beej I heartily approve of this slate! No good options are missing; no bad options were allowed.

 

[TEA_DEMON]

Voting Water because otherwise CAP10 will have a weakness far too easily exploited and/or require Levitate as the ability.

 

[Vaz]

I am voting Water because if it was Poison we would HAVE to make its ability Levitate instead of using it for something way more useful. Water is also such a good type with bulk and handy resistances.

 

[PeanutFlipz]

Attacks and STAB is something we can worry about later.

So my vote goes for Water. I believe that it is much more important to be resistant to the most used moves in OU and the fact that Poison has a 4x weakness to ground isn't helping to sway my vote either.

According to Fuzznip's data the 4 most common attack types in OU are Ice, Fire, Water, Ground and Electric.

While Water doesn't alleviate that pesky ground weakness, coupled with Electric, it easily shrugs off the other 4 types.

Poison on the other hand only adds the notable resistances to Fighting and to a lesser extent Grass. As a an added "bonus' it also gives CAP 10 a painful 4x weakness to ground.

Hence, my vote goes for Water

 

[Str0ngbad]

Water. I do not want to skip the ability phase and having a 4x ground weakness is begging to do just that. However, I am concerned with how many people are already talking about making this CAP a light-weight to avoid its grass weakness. First off, grass is only so large a threat but that shouldn't even matter. We should not be assuming or even leaning toward future decisions at this point. If you are voting for Water you should do so assuming a full ground and grass weakness and if you are voting poison you should be prepared to live with a full 4x ground weakness and a psychic weakness. Please do not vote assuming outcomes of future polls in the least.

 

[ShravanP]

I voted Water. I'm with UD on this. We cannot lock down an ability at this stage, and that's exactly what picking Poison will force us to do. Water has fantastic all-round coverage with Electric and makes for a very solid base for adding things on at a later stage.

 

[2gig]

I went with Water. Bad typing isn't as bad as bad typing plus a strong likelihood that everyone who obviously doesn't understand the concept and their mother will want to put levitate on the thing. At least with Water there's a better chance of us getting two abilities that actually support the concept.

 

[Thorns]

man what happened to no secondary typing, anyway i voted for water since we dont want to lock ourselves into levitate with the abilities, we need to make this a versatile counter

 

[Ezekiel]

Whelp, my favorite was plunked out of the running, so...

Water. Hands down.

Poison gains one good resist and one average-or-decent resist (Fighting and Bug respectively), magnifies a painful weakness to Ground, and provides questionably-useful status immunities, while granting zip as far as attack is concerned. I just can't see the reasoning behind it.

Water, on the other hand, exchanges a neutralized Electric resist for Fire, Water, and Ice resists, and doubles(!) the Steel resist. Furthermore, the only added weakness is Grass, which is hardly threatening at all (else why would 'Bulky Waters' be such a hurdle?). Every poke has to have its weak points; CAP10's should be Grass and Ground. Furthermore, Water is a useful STAB and will allow CAP10 to do some damage to any Ground types it encounters.

 

[Erazor]

Water - since Poison basically forces us to either have Levitate or get screwed by the most common move in the metagame. No one would use the secondary ability either(if it gets one). Water also gives resistances to Ice, Fire, and Water itself, which are handy indeed. It's also a much more effective STAB than Poison.

 

[Raikaria]

Voting Water. I already supported it, and let's face it, I'm not going to be happy with a type the forces Levitate as an ability. [And no secondary is going to be anything else... when was the last time you saw a Heatproof Brongzong?]

I know Beej explained why he didn;t put Fighting up there, but why not Mono-Electric? That had quite a lot of support too, and didn't give us anymore weaknesses.

 

[Urza]

serious question: what happened to fighting or no secondary? not doubting the TL, but just a curious question...didn't seem like either of those were out of the picture from the debate thread.

that being said, if it's these choices, i'll vote water. the versatility that type adds is too much to pass up...probable ice attacks, some key resists in fire and ice, plus the added stab...better than nothing. although it does likely slant this CAP special....

 

[Dominion]

Voted Poison, the x4 ground weakness is exactly what we need on this CAP, it provides one of the crutches necessary to fill in the part of "but is incapable of countering a large number of Pokemon at the same time".

Although, I am glad that both Water and Poison made it to the poll. (Yay)

 

[Destiny Warrior]

Voted Water, due to its relative lack of weaknesses, that will help when switching. It gives us a total of 2 weaknesses.

1.Ground-types are generally slow(not counting Fidgit), and can be threatened with water-type STAB.

2.Grass can easily be worked around, and anyway, it is somewhat rare.

 

[Rhys29]

Voted Poison.

Reasons for voting

Why is every so upset with Levitate being a set ability? People are actually complaining that using said combination of types will make Levitate invaluable because it can deal with a lot more threats. Yeah, that would suck if CAP10 was doing it's job. Last time I checked Levitate was a fantastic ability and it only adds to the utility of either types. Helps it switch in and take down many of the EQ spammers in OU. Also protects it from Spikes and TS so it can't be hindered by those which would help it work as a stall counter if need be. At the same time Poison could use a non-Levitate secondary ability and soak up the TS which only adds to versatility. Makes sure it isn't trapped by Dugtrio/Trapinch as a final note. There's literally nothing negative about giving it Levitate.

Anything that's weak to EQ will never effectively bring down DD Mence/Gyarados/Tyranitar without proper priority, stats, etc. Metagross has the incredibly bulky Defense stats of 80 HP and 130 Defense and without a + nature and tons of defensive investment it's OHKO'd by +1 LO Earthquake from neutral attacking natures. Still can't touch SD Gliscor who will OHKO with STAB EQ. Still can't counter CB sets on anything carrying Earthquake. Still can't switch into Specs/LO Heatran without heavy prediction. If you avoid Levitate with Water/Electric you'll just be forced to use another ability that deals with it's Ground weakness so you're not solving the problem.

I'm not 100% against Water, it's just using Ice resistance as arguing points is... odd. Ice is almost never STAB'd so it won't be powerful enough to make a difference. HP-Ice from Zapdos isn't going to do much to CAP10 regardless of resistance or weakness. And if it is STAB'd, it's Ice Punch from Weavile. Gasp. So Ice really only has a single threat and a pretty lame one at that. Fire is more viable to an extent but with only Heatran and Infernape firing off STAB shots it's not that impressive of a resistance. Heat Wave from Zapdos struggles to 2HKO standard Gliscor who has terrible Sp.D resistances. The only other true mentionables are Overheat from Rotom and Fire Blast from Salamence. These are much better arguments but still not the best as most things with a decent Sp.D can deal with them and moves like Shadow Ball and Draco Meteor will be feared much more anyways. Random HP-Fire's and Flamethrowers on things that don't use them well (Blissey, lead Azelf) are the only others and don't really make it worthwhile. Water is better, but still not over the top fantastic. Helps against Gyarados but it can still abuse your weakness to Ground. Helps against Crocune, but it will still set up all over your ass unless CAP10 gets Taunt, a fantastic Attack stat, or something else to break it but that would be poll jumping. Helps against Vaporeon, but so does immunity to Toxic, any amount of special bulk, and STAB Electric attacks. The main enemy would be Empoleon, but it's uncommon. However without a Water resist it's incredibly difficult to bring down Sub/Petaya (though weakness to Grass Knot doesn't do it too much better). Only other mentionables are Latias and Swampert who both have much more threatening attacks.

The same can be said about a lot of Poison's resistances, I am well aware, but most of those are STAB attacks. Scizor uses U-Turn and Bug Bite and Celebi uses Grass. Only two real worthy mentions, but being able to counter Scizor for sure will be extremely useful. Electric is more than mentionable, since Zapdos, Jolteon and Magnezone lose their main powerful STAB and are forced to use lesser means in order to damage CAP10, like the apparently threatening Heat Wave and HP-Ice/Fire which won't matter if your set is tailored to counter those with heavy Sp.D investments.

Resisting Fighting is a much much more viable point however. CAP10 will not be able to counter Lucario without it. If a +2 LO Close Combat can OHKO defensive Skarmory then there is no way a Pokemon who isn't meant to have super high defenses is going to be able to take it. And what about Machamp? The only way to really deal with it on most teams is to carry a Ghost type or hope you can stall it down with Zapdos or Gyarados. And Machamp carries attacks for both those types of defenses. Not to mention CB Machamp would tear Water/Electric typing open with STAB Dynamic Punch as it does to everything without a resist. Breloom also crushes CAP10 without an issue, resisting both STABs and easily smashing it with either Focus Punch or Seed Bomb (while Poison resists both) and I really don't see anyway it can fix it.

I see both side's statements but Poison shines clear imo. If Fire/Ice is such a valuable resistance to have there is always Thick Fat. The opponent will never know you're ability without proper scouting and it should only be brought out to deal with one specific threat. This means the only logical resistance being missed out on is Water, which is a nice resistance to have but not 100% necessary. I'd much rather take the Fighting resist > Water resist. W/E works but it just doesn't compare to P/E imo.

What needs to be changed about CAP10

Honestly the mission statement itself is near impossible to work with. We would need forms in order to deal with every threat. As long as Steel isn't used we will never counter Draco Meteor spamming without a large Sp.D. You won't be able to deal with Outrages without huge Defense or Steel typing. But CAP10 can't have massive defenses as it would be able to wall a good deal of other things. Since we've already decided no Steel it basically can't be done without making up some magical, overpowered ability.

By saying we can counter any one specific Pokemon we are making a Pokemon that can counter everything essentially at once. This can only be done by type coverage that no weaknesses, and since both the types we are voting on do have weaknesses, they will not work. The only thing that would is a massively defensive Ghost/Dark type (or any other type combination that has no weaknesses) or a Levitating Electric type. And thus it would become the best wall ever since it can counter virtually anything.

Forms would be the only way to keep this in check and this would make the mission statement work. Very customizable, with type combinations it CAN handle virtually any Pokemon in the game, and with those types different stats so they work with their resistances and advantages to handle specific threats. That needed to be said, done ranting.

 

[Skymin_Flower]

Voted Poison.

Why is every so upset with Levitate being a set ability? People are actually complaining that using said combination of types will make Levitate invaluable because it can deal with a lot more threats. Yeah, that would suck if CAP10 was doing it's job. Last time I checked Levitate was a fantastic ability and it only adds to the utility of either types. Helps it switch in and take down many of the EQ spammers in OU. Also protects it from Spikes and TS so it can't be hindered by those which would help it work as a stall counter if need be. At the same time Poison could use a non-Levitate secondary ability and soak up the TS which only adds to versatility. Makes sure it isn't trapped by Dugtrio/Trapinch as a final note. There's literally nothing negative about giving it Levitate.

Anything that's weak to EQ will never effectively bring down DD Mence/Gyarados/Tyranitar without proper priority, stats, etc. Metagross has the incredibly bulky Defense stats of 80 HP and 130 Defense and without a + nature and tons of defensive investment it's OHKO'd by +1 LO Earthquake from neutral attacking natures. Still can't touch SD Gliscor who will OHKO with STAB EQ. Still can't counter CB sets on anything carrying Earthquake. Still can't switch into Specs/LO Heatran without heavy prediction. If you avoid Levitate with Water/Electric you'll just be forced to use another ability that deals with it's Ground weakness so you're not solving the problem.

Voted Water

I think the argument against Levitate is because people want more room to maneuver. There are many more abilities that would help this Pokemon do its job better than levitate. The point about spikes and TS is moot, because this Pokemon is supposed to be designed to counter a few Pokemon, not to be able to switch in and out to counter multiple Pokemon (unless they are extremely similar).

Also, the idea is that this Pokemon WILL have the means to bring down DD Mence/Gyara/Tar. It does not need levitate. If this Pokemon is Electric/Water, and is as bulky as Metagross, then it COULD take an Earthquake from these Pokes and KO/threaten back. Yes you would need to invest a lot of Defense and HP EV's, but isn't that the whole point? to be able to customise this Pokemon? If this Pokemon's second typing is Poison there is no way that is going to happen, and that almost necessitates Levitate, which is not what we want. Remember a bulky Pokemon can take a super effective attack if they have the right EV investment and nature. No Pokemon can take a decently powered 4x attack.

I think Water is the best type for this Pokemon. Water/Electric/Ice (which water pokemon always get) provides excellent neutral coverage and some nice STAB attacks to use to counter Pokemon. It also picks up Fire/Water/Ice resistances, and resists Steel types 4x. Why does everyone forget the Steel resistance? The top Pokemon in the metagame is a Steel type! Also this Pokemon only has two weaknesses, Grass (rare, and we could always make this Pokemon light to avoid Grass Knot) and Ground. I think Water/Electric gives us much more versatility than Water/Poison.

 

[Rhys29]

If this Pokemon is Electric/Water, and is as bulky as Metagross, then it COULD take an Earthquake from these Pokes and KO/threaten back.

You miss the point. If you can take a +1 Earthquake for Tyranitar/Salamence/Gyarados you counter all three in one set and thus it goes against what the mission statement is.

Made an update to my last post but I think the idea is far too late.

 

[Skymin_Flower]

You miss the point. If you can take a +1 Earthquake for Tyranitar/Salamence/Gyarados you counter all three in one set and thus it goes against what the mission statement is.

Made an update to my last post but I think the idea is far too late.

Ahhh see but the DD sets for all these Pokemon play similarly. Utility counter could also be used to counter certain sets. Is it unfair that if this Pokemon is built to counter RestTalk Heracross it also counters RestTalk Machamp? Not really, it is almost inevitable. Same situation here really.

 

[Rhys29]

Ahhh see but the DD sets for all these Pokemon play similarly. Utility counter could also be used to counter certain sets. Is it unfair that if this Pokemon is built to counter RestTalk Heracross it also counters RestTalk Machamp? Not really, it is almost inevitable. Same situation here really.

I think you still miss the point. See how it would be able to take an incredibly powerful +1 SE base 100 Attack? Now it's a physical wall that can counter much more. Standard Jirachi is walled. SD Scizor can't score a OHKO with +2 LO Bug Bite and is potentially OHKO'd. It can't be 2HKO'd by Swampert and thus walled and countered. Dragonite would be countered. It can potentially counter Adamant Lucario as a +2 LO Close Combat deals slightly more damage than a +1 LO Adamant EQ from Salamence. The list keeps going. CAP10 would need a move to deal with each said threat at some point so it could just run them all at once and counter a wide variety of opponents while only having to truely focus on one.

The only reason the other mentioned utility counters worked is because they had SPECIFIC threats they could potentially counter and that was it. This CAP currently does not as it has to be able to potentially counter everything in some way. As I say, I think forms could do this, which would force us to start over (unless I'm mistaken), but really it looks like we'll dig a rut and fail the mission statement.

 

[Vaz]

Voted Poison.

Reasons for voting

Why is every so upset with Levitate being a set ability? People are actually complaining that using said combination of types will make Levitate invaluable because it can deal with a lot more threats. Yeah, that would suck if CAP10 was doing it's job. Last time I checked Levitate was a fantastic ability and it only adds to the utility of either types. Helps it switch in and take down many of the EQ spammers in OU. Also protects it from Spikes and TS so it can't be hindered by those which would help it work as a stall counter if need be. At the same time Poison could use a non-Levitate secondary ability and soak up the TS which only adds to versatility. Makes sure it isn't trapped by Dugtrio/Trapinch as a final note. There's literally nothing negative about giving it Levitate.

Anything that's weak to EQ will never effectively bring down DD Mence/Gyarados/Tyranitar without proper priority, stats, etc. Metagross has the incredibly bulky Defense stats of 80 HP and 130 Defense and without a + nature and tons of defensive investment it's OHKO'd by +1 LO Earthquake from neutral attacking natures. Still can't touch SD Gliscor who will OHKO with STAB EQ. Still can't counter CB sets on anything carrying Earthquake. Still can't switch into Specs/LO Heatran without heavy prediction. If you avoid Levitate with Water/Electric you'll just be forced to use another ability that deals with it's Ground weakness so you're not solving the problem.

I'm not 100% against Water, it's just using Ice resistance as arguing points is... odd. Ice is almost never STAB'd so it won't be powerful enough to make a difference. HP-Ice from Zapdos isn't going to do much to CAP10 regardless of resistance or weakness. And if it is STAB'd, it's Ice Punch from Weavile. Gasp. So Ice really only has a single threat and a pretty lame one at that. Fire is more viable to an extent but with only Heatran and Infernape firing off STAB shots it's not that impressive of a resistance. Heat Wave from Zapdos struggles to 2HKO standard Gliscor who has terrible Sp.D resistances. The only other true mentionables are Overheat from Rotom and Fire Blast from Salamence. These are much better arguments but still not the best as most things with a decent Sp.D can deal with them and moves like Shadow Ball and Draco Meteor will be feared much more anyways. Random HP-Fire's and Flamethrowers on things that don't use them well (Blissey, lead Azelf) are the only others and don't really make it worthwhile. Water is better, but still not over the top fantastic. Helps against Gyarados but it can still abuse your weakness to Ground. Helps against Crocune, but it will still set up all over your ass unless CAP10 gets Taunt, a fantastic Attack stat, or something else to break it but that would be poll jumping. Helps against Vaporeon, but so does immunity to Toxic, any amount of special bulk, and STAB Electric attacks. The main enemy would be Empoleon, but it's uncommon. However without a Water resist it's incredibly difficult to bring down Sub/Petaya (though weakness to Grass Knot doesn't do it too much better). Only other mentionables are Latias and Swampert who both have much more threatening attacks.

The same can be said about a lot of Poison's resistances, I am well aware, but most of those are STAB attacks. Scizor uses U-Turn and Bug Bite and Celebi uses Grass. Only two real worthy mentions, but being able to counter Scizor for sure will be extremely useful. Electric is more than mentionable, since Zapdos, Jolteon and Magnezone lose their main powerful STAB and are forced to use lesser means in order to damage CAP10, like the apparently threatening Heat Wave and HP-Ice/Fire which won't matter if your set is tailored to counter those with heavy Sp.D investments.

Resisting Fighting is a much much more viable point however. CAP10 will not be able to counter Lucario without it. If a +2 LO Close Combat can OHKO defensive Skarmory then there is no way a Pokemon who isn't meant to have super high defenses is going to be able to take it. And what about Machamp? The only way to really deal with it on most teams is to carry a Ghost type or hope you can stall it down with Zapdos or Gyarados. And Machamp carries attacks for both those types of defenses. Not to mention CB Machamp would tear Water/Electric typing open with STAB Dynamic Punch as it does to everything without a resist. Breloom also crushes CAP10 without an issue, resisting both STABs and easily smashing it with either Focus Punch or Seed Bomb (while Poison resists both) and I really don't see anyway it can fix it.

I see both side's statements but Poison shines clear imo. If Fire/Ice is such a valuable resistance to have there is always Thick Fat. The opponent will never know you're ability without proper scouting and it should only be brought out to deal with one specific threat. This means the only logical resistance being missed out on is Water, which is a nice resistance to have but not 100% necessary. I'd much rather take the Fighting resist > Water resist. W/E works but it just doesn't compare to P/E imo.

What needs to be changed about CAP10

Honestly the mission statement itself is near impossible to work with. We would need forms in order to deal with every threat. As long as Steel isn't used we will never counter Draco Meteor spamming without a large Sp.D. You won't be able to deal with Outrages without huge Defense or Steel typing. But CAP10 can't have massive defenses as it would be able to wall a good deal of other things. Since we've already decided no Steel it basically can't be done without making up some magical, overpowered ability.

By saying we can counter any one specific Pokemon we are making a Pokemon that can counter everything essentially at once. This can only be done by type coverage that no weaknesses, and since both the types we are voting on do have weaknesses, they will not work. The only thing that would is a massively defensive Ghost/Dark type (or any other type combination that has no weaknesses) or a Levitating Electric type. And thus it would become the best wall ever since it can counter virtually anything.

Forms would be the only way to keep this in check and this would make the mission statement work. Very customizable, with type combinations it CAN handle virtually any Pokemon in the game, and with those types different stats so they work with their resistances and advantages to handle specific threats. That needed to be said, done ranting.

Wow, that is one good arguament for Poison. It has given me quite a bit of insight on why it is a healthy option for this style pokemon and highly recomend all to read it, despite the fact I voted for Water.

^_^

 

[Skymin_Flower]

I think you still miss the point. See how it would be able to take an incredibly powerful +1 SE base 100 Attack? Now it's a physical wall that can counter much more. Standard Jirachi is walled. SD Scizor can't score a OHKO with +2 LO Bug Bite and is potentially OHKO'd. It can't be 2HKO'd by Swampert and thus walled and countered. Dragonite would be countered. It can potentially counter Adamant Lucario as a +2 LO Close Combat deals slightly more damage than a +1 LO Adamant EQ from Salamence. The list keeps going. CAP10 would need a move to deal with each said threat at some point so it could just run them all at once and counter a wide variety of opponents while only having to truely focus on one.

The only reason the other mentioned utility counters worked is because they had SPECIFIC threats they could potentially counter and that was it. This CAP currently does not as it has to be able to potentially counter everything in some way. As I say, I think forms could do this, which would force us to start over (unless I'm mistaken), but really it looks like we'll dig a rut and fail the mission statement.

Ahh. I see. I actually agree with you on this.

 

[Dominion]

Well if you make a pokemon to counter DDmence, you have effectively made a counter to DDdos. The concepts behind many pokemon movesets are the exact same thing except with a different stab or perhaps a different typing. So, if you want a pokemon to counter DDmence but be weak to DDdos you have to really be specific when making such a pokemon. So specific that you forget about countering nearly anything else.

X4 ground weakness (Or any weakness for that matter.. bar priority) is only bad if you
A) switch into an oncoming X4 weak attack
or
B) are outsped and hit with X4 weak attack that you apparently didn't forsee coming.

I think people are over hyping the problemso f X4 ground and are claiming that we are going to give this pokemon levitate if we do go Electric/Poison. I've stated earlier that I have no intention of ever voting Levitate and never have I felt that it was necessary.

Yes, X4 ground weak is bad
No, it would not make this CAP explode due to horrendous failure

To counter Water, I would be very sad to see most people running Electric/Water/(most likely Ice) in -every- moveset simply because it provides perfect coverage and thus, able to hit everything for neutral or better. That defeats the point of this CAP. A single 'best' moveset (By a large margine) is possibly the biggest sign of failure that this CAP could achieve that I hope doesn't happen. And is why I strongly dislike Water as a secondary typing.

Isn't it strange how I wanted Water to be the primary typing but do not the secondary typing.. Weird.

I guess I was hoping for something quirky paired with Water that wouldn't make it all too powerful in the offensive department.

Hmm, Either way Electric/Poison and Electric/Water are both good. I was simply pointing out worst case scenarios that we can (hopefully) avoid in the later stages.

 

[swordmaster117]

Well if you make a pokemon to counter DDmence, you have effectively made a counter to DDdos. The concepts behind many pokemon movesets are the exact same thing except with a different stab or perhaps a different typing. So, if you want a pokemon to counter DDmence but be weak to DDdos you have to really be specific when making such a pokemon. So specific that you forget about countering nearly anything else.

X4 ground weakness (Or any weakness for that matter.. bar priority) is only bad if you
A) switch into an oncoming X4 weak attack
or
B) are outsped and hit with X4 weak attack that you apparently didn't forsee coming.

I think people are over hyping the problemso f X4 ground and are claiming that we are going to give this pokemon levitate if we do go Electric/Poison. I've stated earlier that I have no intention of ever voting Levitate and never have I felt that it was necessary.

Yes, X4 ground weak is bad
No, it would not make this CAP explode due to horrendous failure

To counter Water, I would be very sad to see most people running Electric/Water/(most likely Ice) in -every- moveset simply because it provides perfect coverage and thus, able to hit everything for neutral or better. That defeats the point of this CAP. A single 'best' moveset (By a large margine) is possibly the biggest sign of failure that this CAP could achieve that I hope doesn't happen. And is why I strongly dislike Water as a secondary typing.

Isn't it strange how I wanted Water to be the primary typing but do not the secondary typing.. Weird.

I guess I was hoping for something quirky paired with Water that wouldn't make it all too powerful in the offensive department.

Hmm, Either way Electric/Poison and Electric/Water are both good. I was simply pointing out worst case scenarios that we can (hopefully) avoid in the later stages.

Hopefully we can prevent this later through limited TMs and HMs, but a wide array of egg moves. This will allow us to restrict which ones this poke can learn at a given time.

Mono-Electric?

anyway, Water seems like the best choice. As others have said, a 4x weakness to ground is too much, and forcing ourselves into levitate later is not a choice we want to make.

 

[kuja20]

Depending on later stages, Electric/Poison seems like the better "Utility Counter", and is a brand new type combination and I am personally interested to see where this would lead us. Having a 4x Weakness to Ground is unavoidable, unless you make it levitate, or give it an ability that lessens the blow of Super Effective moves (like Solid Rock or Filter). Else you could probably give it Magnet Rise, and give it a reasonable amount of speed, but that is thinking pretty far ahead.

Electric/Water seems to me to be a beefed up version of Lanturn, and it's resistances and weaknesses is its good point. However, we would still have the weakness to ground, so either way with Poison or Water, we'll still get that Ground weakness problem depending on how the Stats and other variables pan out. If we make CAP10 super defensive, then I would reckon Water would be the superior option thanks to key resistances and few weaknesses, but I'm not sure if that's the direction that needs to be headed in.

Poison could (as previously said) help to combat stall teams with Levitate, or soak up Toxic Spikes if it isn't. Either way it's a nice and unique typing, and is something we have not yet encountered, which needless to say is part of learning further about the metagame, which is what this project is supposedly about.

Whilst reading the original Secondary Typing thread, I was under the impression that we would have more options to choose from as CAP10's secondary ability, such as Bug or Fighting or none. Surely more options would have been more advantageous towards the success of the project? Maybe I'm wrong.

In the end i voted poison. I would like to see something new and interesting and I believe Electric/Poison would achieve that.