Wait, what? Gyarados eats TBolt like anything. Which CAP10 has STAB on.
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CAP 10 CAP 10 - Secondary Typing Discussion
- Thread starter beej
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I've seen Poison being suggested, but it doesn't provide many good STAB moves. As a defensive Pokemon, you want to be able to have an attack type that can do a decent amount of damage to your opponent, in case you are taunted.
I am going with Electric/Fighting. With fighting, it should be able to gain the elemental punches to provide better coverage. Psychic moves are not common, so the only other huge weakness is Ground.
If it gets a nice Special Attacking stat and movepool, it will be like Jolteon. The good side to this is that it will now be able to counter Tyranitar by being able to use moves such as Aura Sphere.
I am going with Electric/Fighting. With fighting, it should be able to gain the elemental punches to provide better coverage. Psychic moves are not common, so the only other huge weakness is Ground.
If it gets a nice Special Attacking stat and movepool, it will be like Jolteon. The good side to this is that it will now be able to counter Tyranitar by being able to use moves such as Aura Sphere.
A good counter to most pokemon must avoid the oh-so common Earthquake.
A bug or Grass secondary typing would be great new typings to explore, as Zapdos fulfills the role of the Electric/flying type pretty well and doesn't want to be copied.
Electric/Grass would be a great Typing to counter any Bulky Ground or Water types, as well as removing gyarados pretty easily with a Resistance to water, neutrality to Rock and Ground and a lone weakness to the poor Ice Fang.
Bug/Electric is great novelty to start with. Neutrality to ground and flying, as well as great resistances to Steel, (Bye Bye Jirachi and Scizor), Fighting and electric. However, weakness to the ever-common Stealth Rock will greatly hamper its ability to counter threats.
For me, Grass/Electric is the best idea.
A bug or Grass secondary typing would be great new typings to explore, as Zapdos fulfills the role of the Electric/flying type pretty well and doesn't want to be copied.
Electric/Grass would be a great Typing to counter any Bulky Ground or Water types, as well as removing gyarados pretty easily with a Resistance to water, neutrality to Rock and Ground and a lone weakness to the poor Ice Fang.
Bug/Electric is great novelty to start with. Neutrality to ground and flying, as well as great resistances to Steel, (Bye Bye Jirachi and Scizor), Fighting and electric. However, weakness to the ever-common Stealth Rock will greatly hamper its ability to counter threats.
For me, Grass/Electric is the best idea.
Okay, people REALLY need to stop saying "because CAP10 will be type x, it means we can give it move y and stat value z". This is basically a thinly veiled attempt at poll jumping. Competitively speaking, we can give this thing anything we want if it means that we are helping it fulfill its concept without becoming muddled. Nobody should be supporting any type because it means we can get moves like the elemental punches, or that we can get like high Speed. This kind of thinking really limits us in the long run.
After thinking about this for a while and considering many of the arguments that are being made both in this thread and on IRC, I have started to gravitate towards Electric/Water. The reasoning for this is that Water provides Water and Fire resistances, which are key in allowing it to respond to many top-tier threats, and though it doesn't neutralize the Ground weakness, it doesn't really compromise us at all in terms of weaknesses in the long run. It's important to remember that even though Earthquake is a popular move, most of the Pokemon that use it either don't have STAB on it or are primarily defensive Pokemon, the only common exceptions being Flygon and Mamoswine. As far as I'm concerned, having good resistances and an ability to switch into a wider variety of attacks is worth a Ground weakness. Although we shouldn't be counting on the ability to outright remove a Ground weakness later through the ability, that is always an option, and for the reasons that I have stated, I don't think we should be obsessing over this.
But while I don't really have a problem with our final typing having a x2 Ground weakness, I really do have a problem with proposed typings that will end up providing us with a x4 Ground weak. This is a really unnecessary exacerbation of a problem, considering that the primary candidate type that would have this problem, Electric/Poison, provides a Fighting resist and little else. Many Pokemon can get away with being weak to Ground because they're strong enough to take the many unSTABed Earthquakes that saturate the metagame, but giving this a x4 weakness pretty much means that we are going to REQUIRE Levitate to even hope to be able to respond to many of these threats.
After thinking about this for a while and considering many of the arguments that are being made both in this thread and on IRC, I have started to gravitate towards Electric/Water. The reasoning for this is that Water provides Water and Fire resistances, which are key in allowing it to respond to many top-tier threats, and though it doesn't neutralize the Ground weakness, it doesn't really compromise us at all in terms of weaknesses in the long run. It's important to remember that even though Earthquake is a popular move, most of the Pokemon that use it either don't have STAB on it or are primarily defensive Pokemon, the only common exceptions being Flygon and Mamoswine. As far as I'm concerned, having good resistances and an ability to switch into a wider variety of attacks is worth a Ground weakness. Although we shouldn't be counting on the ability to outright remove a Ground weakness later through the ability, that is always an option, and for the reasons that I have stated, I don't think we should be obsessing over this.
But while I don't really have a problem with our final typing having a x2 Ground weakness, I really do have a problem with proposed typings that will end up providing us with a x4 Ground weak. This is a really unnecessary exacerbation of a problem, considering that the primary candidate type that would have this problem, Electric/Poison, provides a Fighting resist and little else. Many Pokemon can get away with being weak to Ground because they're strong enough to take the many unSTABed Earthquakes that saturate the metagame, but giving this a x4 weakness pretty much means that we are going to REQUIRE Levitate to even hope to be able to respond to many of these threats.
We don't know if it will get Aura Sphere... besides, unless CAP10 has a significantly higher Sp.A stat then Atk, Close Combat will do more damage to TTar than Aura Sphere, or even Focus Blast, providing we get any of the above moves.
That being said, I have three typings in mind (I won't say much as others have already said what I was going to say):
Mono-Electric: Electric already has three nice resistances and only one weakness, so why not? It has a nice STAB to scare off stuff, too.
Electric-Fighting: Electric-Fighting has 2 weaknesses, Ground and Psychic, and 5 resistances, namely Bug, Dark, Steel, Electric, and Rock, all of which are quite common in the current metagame (e.g. Stone Edge, Thunderbolt, Earthquake, U-Turn, Crunch, etc.) bar Psychic, which no one really uses in OU. Again, another nice STAB.
Electric-Bug: With only 2 weaknesses, Rock and Fire, and resistances to Electric, Grass, and Fighting, it truly can effectively stop some pokemon. STAB U-Turn, should it get it, will also be extremely helpful in countering a counter to the Utility Counter. The weakness to Stealth Rock concerns me, though.
So my current order is:
1. Electric-Fighting
2. Mono-Electric
3. Electric-Bug
After MUCH reading, Im drifting towards Water and Poison as secondary typing. I realize that with Poison, the 4x ground weakness is casuing MUCH grief, and that we don't want Levitate to be necessary, but MANY Pokemon deal with 4x weaknesses sucessfully, and while most aren't defensive I would like to bring Celebi as an example. Celebi is regularly used defensively or for support, and it has 7 weaknesses, including one 4x. But it works around those weaknesses with movepool, stats, and honestly good synergy with Pokemon like Heatran and Zapdos. Electric-Poison can deal with a 4x ground weakness in my opnion in we play it smart, and the resistances provided are incredible.
Water is also a great secondary typing, hitting many EQ users for good damage and overall excellent coverage. I dont have much to say here that hasnt already been mentioned.
Water is also a great secondary typing, hitting many EQ users for good damage and overall excellent coverage. I dont have much to say here that hasnt already been mentioned.
Bull of Heaven
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I'm supporting Poison for the secondary type, and I'd like to point out that I don't see what the problem would be with a 4x Ground weakness. Remember the primary type discussions, when people were commenting that the major issue with Electric was that it would be killed by Earthquake? That's right, unless it gets Levitate, which I doubt it will, this pokemon will die to Earthquakes anyway. On paper, a 4x weakness looks bad, but I don't see why it should actually make any difference.
That's not true. The Bug and the Grass resistances are also notable, since moves like U-turn and Grass Knot are very common in OU.
As people noted, we can give 2 abilities to this thing. Obviously, one will be Levitate, but where's the problem? Levitate is REQUIRED only if the threat we tailor CAP10 to check does use Earthquake. If, for example, I need CAP10 to check Lucario, I won't need Levitate at all (Luke almost never packs EQ anyway), and I may use a more useful ability (like Intimidate, for example). The point is, Levitate does not limit us as much as you think, and the Fighting/Grass/Bug resistance (along with Toxic immunity and, when you are not using Levitate, Toxic Spikes soaking) is definitely worth ONE ability slot.
We've basically narrowed it down to 4 choices from what I can see. My opinions in order of favorite to least:
Electric/ Poison: I like this type exactly because it's secondary STAB isn't very useful and because of it's 4x Ground weakness. If we give CAP10 a good secondary typing people will always run dual STAB which fully defeats the point of the concept. Instead we should have one strong STAB and a variety of strong unSTABed moves designed to take down a certain pokemon. Poison also allows CAP10 to counter status bringers and provides support for the entire team by soaking up Toxic Spikes (without being KOed on the switch). A ground weakness forces a bit of strategy instead of encouraging players to go in head strong both barrels blasting.
Electric/ Water: Water is always a great bulky type and well as a good offensive type. It's not that I really have a problem with the typing, I'm just afraid that instead of a customizable counter we'll wind up with a one-size-fits-all. It really is a good type for a 'mon thats going to be switching often though and provides a wide array of resists
Electric/ Fighting: Decent typing, but I don't think that the type really helps the concept. It just feels like it's going to become Electivire revamped. Coverage and versitility instead of a narrow focused counter.
Electric/ Bug: I have the same arguement here as I did when Cyclohm was up for it's secondary typing, why would you ever have a Utility Counter with a stealth rock weakness? and a Fire weakness as well. It utterly ruins it's lastablity. I was okay with it when we were talking about Electric/ Flying because flying is immune to spikes, but imagine try to switch in and losing 50% of your health... and then taking even a nuetral hit.
Mono-Electric has also been talked about, but I believe even a crappy secondary STAB is better than no STAB at all. Mono-Electric just hinders.
Electric/ Poison: I like this type exactly because it's secondary STAB isn't very useful and because of it's 4x Ground weakness. If we give CAP10 a good secondary typing people will always run dual STAB which fully defeats the point of the concept. Instead we should have one strong STAB and a variety of strong unSTABed moves designed to take down a certain pokemon. Poison also allows CAP10 to counter status bringers and provides support for the entire team by soaking up Toxic Spikes (without being KOed on the switch). A ground weakness forces a bit of strategy instead of encouraging players to go in head strong both barrels blasting.
Electric/ Water: Water is always a great bulky type and well as a good offensive type. It's not that I really have a problem with the typing, I'm just afraid that instead of a customizable counter we'll wind up with a one-size-fits-all. It really is a good type for a 'mon thats going to be switching often though and provides a wide array of resists
Electric/ Fighting: Decent typing, but I don't think that the type really helps the concept. It just feels like it's going to become Electivire revamped. Coverage and versitility instead of a narrow focused counter.
Electric/ Bug: I have the same arguement here as I did when Cyclohm was up for it's secondary typing, why would you ever have a Utility Counter with a stealth rock weakness? and a Fire weakness as well. It utterly ruins it's lastablity. I was okay with it when we were talking about Electric/ Flying because flying is immune to spikes, but imagine try to switch in and losing 50% of your health... and then taking even a nuetral hit.
Mono-Electric has also been talked about, but I believe even a crappy secondary STAB is better than no STAB at all. Mono-Electric just hinders.
I think many people in this thread need to stop considering "coverage" when looking at a secondary type. We don't want this thing to have STAB coverage on many types, we just want to give it the right moves, abilities, and stats later on to counter only specific threats at any given time. Giving this poke a type that will provide good coverage defeats the purpose of a utility counter and instead creates an defeat-everything poke. Thats why I'm advocating Mono-Electric and Electric/Water.
I see where you are coming from Beej. A 4x ground weakness is bad. But x2 isn't much better.
I do not think this pokemon needs to be resistant to everything (As people saw in my comments about Steel). a X4 ground weakness actually helps this CAP become what we want it to be. If, say, the user of this CAP wants this pokemon to counter a pokemon who commonly uses ground type, they will need to find a way around teh ground weakness, thus, weakening it's ability to counter something else.
I simply fear that we will turn this pokemon into a "soft counter to all at once" type of pokemon, which is not what we are intending. We want it to have weaknesses. Weaknesses that have to be patched up in order to counter specific threats. a X4 ground weakness makes this pokemon very fearful of the almighty physical ground move (and earth power to a lesser extent). By giving this CAP such glaring weaknesses, we will be able to give it the Stats, abilities and moves necessary to remove these threats and counter accordingly. If we give it strong neutral typing with very minute weaknesses, then they will be easily ignored and this pokemon will become a form of Sweeper or will only have a singular moveset that the majority of the people will use instead of having very specific movesets to counter specific threats.
The X4 ground weakness would be one of those things that would have to be able to be patched up but would sacrifice something different (That would counter something else). And like I said earlier, we already have a nasty X2 weakness to a type that is commonly used that will be taken advantage of no matter how this pokemon is built.
Edit: Thus I support Electric/Poison even more.
Double Edit: I still do not support Levitate as an ability and it shouldn't be used as a solid arguement as to why this cap should be ANY type.
I do not think this pokemon needs to be resistant to everything (As people saw in my comments about Steel). a X4 ground weakness actually helps this CAP become what we want it to be. If, say, the user of this CAP wants this pokemon to counter a pokemon who commonly uses ground type, they will need to find a way around teh ground weakness, thus, weakening it's ability to counter something else.
I simply fear that we will turn this pokemon into a "soft counter to all at once" type of pokemon, which is not what we are intending. We want it to have weaknesses. Weaknesses that have to be patched up in order to counter specific threats. a X4 ground weakness makes this pokemon very fearful of the almighty physical ground move (and earth power to a lesser extent). By giving this CAP such glaring weaknesses, we will be able to give it the Stats, abilities and moves necessary to remove these threats and counter accordingly. If we give it strong neutral typing with very minute weaknesses, then they will be easily ignored and this pokemon will become a form of Sweeper or will only have a singular moveset that the majority of the people will use instead of having very specific movesets to counter specific threats.
The X4 ground weakness would be one of those things that would have to be able to be patched up but would sacrifice something different (That would counter something else). And like I said earlier, we already have a nasty X2 weakness to a type that is commonly used that will be taken advantage of no matter how this pokemon is built.
Edit: Thus I support Electric/Poison even more.
Double Edit: I still do not support Levitate as an ability and it shouldn't be used as a solid arguement as to why this cap should be ANY type.
I like Electric/Bug
1.No more ground type weakness means no more levitate.
2.Both fire types who really will threaten cap 10 are disposed of, as heatran hates hp ground, and moltres doesn't like getting zapped, as for dragon types who carry fire moves for coverage, it's time to make some ice cream with ice beam(or hp ice/ ice punch).
3.Rock can be covered up with the proper moves or mountaineer. Besides sr immunity is great and extends it's longevity helping this cap a lot no matter what its supposed to counter.
4.Speaking of abilities are buggy friend could carry tinted lens(I know this could promote choice specs sets like yanmega's but hey, kitsunoh turned out to be a great burn inducer and no one complained.) which could make it harder for people to just switch out and laugh off the attack such as the bug buzz destined to faint celebi.
5. This thing could counter Scizor with its eyes closed. This could dethrone Scizor's spot among the most used pokemon. This could really mix up the metagame.
1.No more ground type weakness means no more levitate.
2.Both fire types who really will threaten cap 10 are disposed of, as heatran hates hp ground, and moltres doesn't like getting zapped, as for dragon types who carry fire moves for coverage, it's time to make some ice cream with ice beam(or hp ice/ ice punch).
3.Rock can be covered up with the proper moves or mountaineer. Besides sr immunity is great and extends it's longevity helping this cap a lot no matter what its supposed to counter.
4.Speaking of abilities are buggy friend could carry tinted lens(I know this could promote choice specs sets like yanmega's but hey, kitsunoh turned out to be a great burn inducer and no one complained.) which could make it harder for people to just switch out and laugh off the attack such as the bug buzz destined to faint celebi.
5. This thing could counter Scizor with its eyes closed. This could dethrone Scizor's spot among the most used pokemon. This could really mix up the metagame.
Why are we focusing on taking individual attacking types and not suggesting types that help us deal with actual threats in the metagame. Who cares if we have a type that is resistant to three types, but are relatively useless resistances competitively? I think we need to focus on the actual Pokemon and they’re common attacking types and suggest secondary types from there.
Let’s take a look at the top 20 OU Pokemon and the commonly used attacking types (bolded types indicate STAB):
Scizor: Bug / Steel / Dark / Fighting
Tyranitar: Dark / Rock / Ground / Fire / Fighting / Water
Salamence: Dragon / Fire / Ground
Heatran: Fire / Ground / Grass / Dragon / Normal
Latias: Dragon / Electric / Water / Fire / Grass
Rotom-A: Ghost / Electric / Fire / Water / Fighting
Gyarados: Water / Flying / Ground / Ice / Rock
Jirachi: Steel / Psychic / Electric / Ice / Fire / Grass
Metagross: Steel / Psychic / Ground / Electric / Ice / Normal
Gengar: Ghost / Electric / Ice / Fighting / Normal / Fire
Swampert: Water / Ground / Ice
Lucario: Fighting / Normal / Dark / Ice / Rock
Infernape: Fire / Fighting / Grass / Ice / Rock
Starmie: Water / Electric / Ice / Psychic
Blissey: Ice / Fire
Gliscor: Ground / Rock / Bug / Ice
Azelf: Psychic / Normal / Fire / Grass / Fighting
Magnezone: Electric / Steel / Fire / Ice / Normal
Skarmory: Flying
Vaporeon: Water / Ice / Electric
Now, let’s see which types are most and least dominant through those 20 Pokemon:
Ice: 12 (0 STAB)
Fire: 11 (2 STAB)
Electric: 8 (2 STAB)
Water: 7 (4 STAB)
Ground: 7 (2 STAB)
Fighting: 7 (2 STAB)
Normal: 6 (0 STAB)
Rock: 5 (1 STAB)
Grass: 5 (0 STAB)
Psychic: 4 (4 STAB)
Steel: 4 (4 STAB)
Dragon: 3 (2 STAB)
Dark: 3 (1 STAB)
Ghost: 2 (2 STAB)
Flying: 2 (2 STAB)
Bug: 2 (1 STAB)
As you can see, we need to focus on the types that are a lot more used than the others. In this case, Ice, Fire, Electric, Water, Ground, and Fighting should be considered as types we need to resist. For that reason, I believe Water is one of the best types to consider, because it resists the two most common types (Ice and Fire), as well as resisting Water. Add in Electric, and we get to knock off the four most common types used. Ground and Fighting are the only types that are equal in that of Water (though Water has two more STAB users) but are not resisted. We also pack a 4x resistance to Steel, and all the users of Steel have STAB.
Remember that this is only the top 20. I can broaden this to the top 30 if needed.
Let’s take a look at the top 20 OU Pokemon and the commonly used attacking types (bolded types indicate STAB):
Scizor: Bug / Steel / Dark / Fighting
Tyranitar: Dark / Rock / Ground / Fire / Fighting / Water
Salamence: Dragon / Fire / Ground
Heatran: Fire / Ground / Grass / Dragon / Normal
Latias: Dragon / Electric / Water / Fire / Grass
Rotom-A: Ghost / Electric / Fire / Water / Fighting
Gyarados: Water / Flying / Ground / Ice / Rock
Jirachi: Steel / Psychic / Electric / Ice / Fire / Grass
Metagross: Steel / Psychic / Ground / Electric / Ice / Normal
Gengar: Ghost / Electric / Ice / Fighting / Normal / Fire
Swampert: Water / Ground / Ice
Lucario: Fighting / Normal / Dark / Ice / Rock
Infernape: Fire / Fighting / Grass / Ice / Rock
Starmie: Water / Electric / Ice / Psychic
Blissey: Ice / Fire
Gliscor: Ground / Rock / Bug / Ice
Azelf: Psychic / Normal / Fire / Grass / Fighting
Magnezone: Electric / Steel / Fire / Ice / Normal
Skarmory: Flying
Vaporeon: Water / Ice / Electric
Now, let’s see which types are most and least dominant through those 20 Pokemon:
Ice: 12 (0 STAB)
Fire: 11 (2 STAB)
Electric: 8 (2 STAB)
Water: 7 (4 STAB)
Ground: 7 (2 STAB)
Fighting: 7 (2 STAB)
Normal: 6 (0 STAB)
Rock: 5 (1 STAB)
Grass: 5 (0 STAB)
Psychic: 4 (4 STAB)
Steel: 4 (4 STAB)
Dragon: 3 (2 STAB)
Dark: 3 (1 STAB)
Ghost: 2 (2 STAB)
Flying: 2 (2 STAB)
Bug: 2 (1 STAB)
As you can see, we need to focus on the types that are a lot more used than the others. In this case, Ice, Fire, Electric, Water, Ground, and Fighting should be considered as types we need to resist. For that reason, I believe Water is one of the best types to consider, because it resists the two most common types (Ice and Fire), as well as resisting Water. Add in Electric, and we get to knock off the four most common types used. Ground and Fighting are the only types that are equal in that of Water (though Water has two more STAB users) but are not resisted. We also pack a 4x resistance to Steel, and all the users of Steel have STAB.
Remember that this is only the top 20. I can broaden this to the top 30 if needed.
Yes, okay - I got you. We ought to look into resisting popular types, or stop EQ weakness, or simply just go with something that sounds nice. Thing is, all those ideas are good. Though I must say, if we're going to use resistance-exclusive, Water is the best secondary typing. If.
Back to basics, we've been given Electric type. Do we need another typing? Yes, Mono-Electric is EQ weak, but no more so than Electric/Water, Electric/Fighting or similar 2x EQ weak-mon. We gain a few resistances but also gain some weaknesses. Most of these combinations are worthless or are considered too similar to existing 'mon.
Also, more importantly - almost every Pokemon in the Top 20 has an easily exploited weakness which is made use of in the existing metagame, and those that don't have something akin to a weakness. For example, Starmie is very susceptable to Sucker Punch, and mine is generally OHKOed or 2HKOed by it. I don't even run a Choice Set, but it still occurs.
We're making a Utility Counter, something to counter anything you're worried about. While we ought to put focus onto the Top 20, we're not oblidged to do so, and we shouldn't put complete attention on them, in case we miss an unusual flaw in the planning. Such as a Shaymin Seed Flare.
I still see a fatal flaw: we haven't thought out how to approach this exactly. People are making their picks either based on type-coverage, awful STAB or type-resistance. And because we've yet to go into that way of thinking... it occurs to me that we need to choose neutral types.
Back to basics, we've been given Electric type. Do we need another typing? Yes, Mono-Electric is EQ weak, but no more so than Electric/Water, Electric/Fighting or similar 2x EQ weak-mon. We gain a few resistances but also gain some weaknesses. Most of these combinations are worthless or are considered too similar to existing 'mon.
Also, more importantly - almost every Pokemon in the Top 20 has an easily exploited weakness which is made use of in the existing metagame, and those that don't have something akin to a weakness. For example, Starmie is very susceptable to Sucker Punch, and mine is generally OHKOed or 2HKOed by it. I don't even run a Choice Set, but it still occurs.
We're making a Utility Counter, something to counter anything you're worried about. While we ought to put focus onto the Top 20, we're not oblidged to do so, and we shouldn't put complete attention on them, in case we miss an unusual flaw in the planning. Such as a Shaymin Seed Flare.
I still see a fatal flaw: we haven't thought out how to approach this exactly. People are making their picks either based on type-coverage, awful STAB or type-resistance. And because we've yet to go into that way of thinking... it occurs to me that we need to choose neutral types.
All right, I just took a quick look through the OU tier and sort mapped out how certain Pokemon in that tier will affect the different typing options. While doing this, I took into account typing alone, ignoring the potential of stats, abilities (except in the presence of x4 weaknesses), and moves. The list simply presents which Pokemon CAP10 will easily switch into (through typing alone) and which ones it will have problems switching into.
Criteria for being able to "easily switch into": Resists STAB moves, Neutral to all other common moves used by this Pokemon. I have been somewhat lax on Hidden power, especially since it's BP is rather low and pretty much never has STAB behind it. Also, there is a little bit of common sense included. For example, I wouldn't call Lucario "easy to switch into" if CAP10 is neutral to a +2 Extremespeed. That's still gonna hurt a lot.
Criteria for having "difficulty switching into": Weak to moves commonly used by this Pokemon. Those in RED are ones who are especially troublesome (i.e. those that cannot be mitigated by use of ability, etc.)
Here's the list. Let me know if I've left anything out.
I'm pretty sure there are one or two things that might be missing from the above list. But basically, my purpose in listing it out was to see which types had too many weaknesses or too many resistances. For a Utility Counter, we want something that can switch in easily against its desired target without having far too much coverage outside of its intended purpose. The above list lets us visualize which typings tend to overshoot that boundary.
Take Electric/Poison for example. Regardless of WHAT you tailor it to counter, by virtue of typing alone, it will almost always be able to wall Scizor, Skarmory, Magnezone, etc. And on top of that, if it has a move that also lets it hurt these Pokemon, then it will end up countering them almost all of the time as well.
Some typings fall into the other area, having a lot of Pokemon that are very difficult to switch into regardless of ability (existing abilities, at least). Electric/Steel, for example, will ALWAYS have trouble switching in against Lucario, Infernape, and friends by virtue of its Fighting weakness. Unless we mitigate this through some custom ability, Steel will be a poor choice due to the plethora of things in OU that hurt it badly.
I feel it would be best to choose a typing that allows us to have somewhat of a balance here. Too many resists means that it becomes a GENERAL counter, not a Utility Counter. Too many problem Pokemon will mean that outside of some crazy custom ability or godly stats, it will be too weak to be a Utility Counter.
Also, we can choose to ignore a 2x weakness, but we cannot ignore a 4x (forcing us to use Levitate on Electric/Poison and Electric/Steel). Anything that predetermines a later step in the process is a big NO-NO to me.
Given all this, it is clear that the best options we have from a defensive standpoint are Mono-Electric, Electric/Fighting, and Electric/Water. All three of these types do not have so much coverage that they resist half of OU, nor do they have any dangerous weaknesses that cannot be overcome by EXISTING moves or abilities. They also offer a fair deal of flexibility when it comes to which moves or abilities we can choose.
If we are to also take into account offensive capabilities offered by good STAB, then Electric/Water slightly edges out Electric/Fighting in that department, even though Electric/Fighting is not all THAT bad of a STAB combination (since most that DO resist the combo are 4x weak to something else).
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EDIT: Also, just read Fuzznip's post. Yes, I agree. It's important to look at REAL threats than to look at the type resistances alone.
Criteria for being able to "easily switch into": Resists STAB moves, Neutral to all other common moves used by this Pokemon. I have been somewhat lax on Hidden power, especially since it's BP is rather low and pretty much never has STAB behind it. Also, there is a little bit of common sense included. For example, I wouldn't call Lucario "easy to switch into" if CAP10 is neutral to a +2 Extremespeed. That's still gonna hurt a lot.
Criteria for having "difficulty switching into": Weak to moves commonly used by this Pokemon. Those in RED are ones who are especially troublesome (i.e. those that cannot be mitigated by use of ability, etc.)
Here's the list. Let me know if I've left anything out.
Code:
[B]Mono Electric[/B]
[U]Entry Hazards Resisted[/U]: None
[U]Entry Hazards Weak to[/U]: Toxic Spikes
[U]Can Easily Switch Into (no ability)[/U]: Jirachi (barring Flinchax), Skarmory, Magnezone, Jolteon, Zapdos, Togekiss (barring Flinchax)
[U]Has Trouble Switching Into (no ability)[/U]: Machamp, Heracross, Salamence, Tyranitar, Gliscor, Mammoswine, Metagross, Hippowdon, Swampert, Gyarados, Flygon, Electivire, Snorlax, Dragonite
--
[B]Electric/Steel[/B]
[U]Entry Hazards Resisted[/U]: Stealth Rock, Toxic Spikes
[U]Entry Hazards Weak to[/U]: None
[U]Can Easily Switch Into (no ability)[/U]: Jirachi (barring Flinchax), Skarmory, Magnezone, Jolteon
[U]Can Easily Switch Into (@ Levitate)[/U]: Jirachi (barring Flinchax), Skarmory, Roserade, Metagross, Gliscor, Bronzong, Mammoswine, Forretress, Magnezone
[U]Has Trouble Switching Into (no ability)[/U]: [COLOR=red]Lucario, Machamp, Breloom, Infernape, Heatran, Heracross, Salamence[/COLOR], Scizor (Superpower), Tyranitar (Fire blast/Superpower), Gliscor, Forretress, Mammoswine, Bronzong, Metagross, Hippowdon, Swampert, Gyarados, Flygon, Electivire, Snorlax, Dragonite
(for this typing, every Pokemon sporting EQ is a potential [COLOR=red]RED[/COLOR] danger were it not for Levitate)
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[B]Electric/Poison[/B]
[U]Entry Hazards Resisted[/U]: Toxic Spikes
[U]Entry Hazards Weak To[/U]: None
[U]Can Easily Switch Into (no ability)[/U]: Scizor, Togekiss (barring Flinchax), Skarmory, Magnezone
[U]Can Easily Switch Into (@ Levitate)[/U]: Scizor, Togekiss (barring Flinchax), Skarmory, Magnezone, Heracross, Machamp, Forretress
[U]Has Trouble Switching Into (no ability)[/U]: [COLOR=red]Azelf[/COLOR], Tyranitar, Gliscor, Forretress, Bronzong, Metagross, Hippowdon, Swampert, Gyarados, Flygon, Electivire, Mammoswine, Snorlax, Salamence, Dragonite
(for this typing, every Pokemon sporting EQ is a potential [COLOR=red]RED[/COLOR] danger were it not for Levitate)
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[B]Electric/Water[/B]
[U]Entry Hazards Resisted[/U]: None
[U]Entry Hazards Weak To[/U]: Toxic Spikes
[U]Can Easily Switch Into[/U]: Skarmory, Vaporeon, Suicune, Tentacruel, Jirachi (barring Flinchax)
[U]Has Trouble Switching Into (no ability)[/U]: Tyranitar, Gliscor, Metagross, Hippowdon, Swampert, Gyarados (EQ), Flygon, Electivire, Mammoswine, Celebi, Roserade, Heracross, Snorlax, Salamence, Dragonite, Azelf, Latias
--
[B]Electric/Grass[/B]
[U]Entry Hazards Resisted[/U]: None
[U]Entry Hazards Weak To[/U]: Toxic Spikes
[U]Can Easily Switch Into[/U]: Jolteon. Nothing else fits the criteria. It's weak to at least one move commonly carried by all OU pokemon or just doesn't resist their STAB.
[U]Has Trouble Switching Into (no ability)[/U]: [COLOR=red]Scizor, Celebi (U-turn), Jirachi (U-turn), Flygon (U-turn), Azelf (U-turn), Heracross[/COLOR], Tyranitar (Fire Blast), Heatran, Infernape, Salamence, Weavile, Mammoswine, Vaporeon (Ice Beam), Starmie (Ice Beam), Zapdos (Heat Wave), Ninjask, Electivire, Dragonite, Tentacruel
--
[B]Electric/Fighting[/B]
[U]Entry Hazards Resisted[/U]: Stealth Rock
[U]Entry Hazards Weak To[/U]: Toxic Spikes
[U]Can Easily Switch Into[/U]: Scizor, Magnezone, Zapdos, Skarmory (since it has low offense), Ninjask, Jolteon
[U]Has Trouble Switching Into (no ability)[/U]: Tyranitar, Machamp, Gliscor, Metagross, Hippowdon, Swampert, Gyarados (EQ), Flygon, Electivire, Mammoswine, Celebi, Roserade, Heracross, Snorlax, Salamence, Dragonite, Azelf, Latias
--
[B]Electric/Bug[/B]
[U]Entry Hazards Resisted[/U]: None
[U]Entry Hazards Weak To[/U]: Toxic Spikes, Stealth Rock
[U]Can Easily Switch Into[/U]: Machamp, Celebi, Forretress, Jolteon, Metagross
[U]Has Trouble Switching Into (no ability)[/U]: [COLOR=red]Tyranitar, Mammoswine, Gyarados (Stone Edge), Aerodactyl, Salamence[/COLOR], Heatran, Infernape, Gliscor, Flygon (Fire Blast, Stone Edge), Heracross (Stone Edge), Machamp (Stone Edge), Dragonite, Azelf (Flamethrower)Take Electric/Poison for example. Regardless of WHAT you tailor it to counter, by virtue of typing alone, it will almost always be able to wall Scizor, Skarmory, Magnezone, etc. And on top of that, if it has a move that also lets it hurt these Pokemon, then it will end up countering them almost all of the time as well.
Some typings fall into the other area, having a lot of Pokemon that are very difficult to switch into regardless of ability (existing abilities, at least). Electric/Steel, for example, will ALWAYS have trouble switching in against Lucario, Infernape, and friends by virtue of its Fighting weakness. Unless we mitigate this through some custom ability, Steel will be a poor choice due to the plethora of things in OU that hurt it badly.
I feel it would be best to choose a typing that allows us to have somewhat of a balance here. Too many resists means that it becomes a GENERAL counter, not a Utility Counter. Too many problem Pokemon will mean that outside of some crazy custom ability or godly stats, it will be too weak to be a Utility Counter.
Also, we can choose to ignore a 2x weakness, but we cannot ignore a 4x (forcing us to use Levitate on Electric/Poison and Electric/Steel). Anything that predetermines a later step in the process is a big NO-NO to me.
Given all this, it is clear that the best options we have from a defensive standpoint are Mono-Electric, Electric/Fighting, and Electric/Water. All three of these types do not have so much coverage that they resist half of OU, nor do they have any dangerous weaknesses that cannot be overcome by EXISTING moves or abilities. They also offer a fair deal of flexibility when it comes to which moves or abilities we can choose.
If we are to also take into account offensive capabilities offered by good STAB, then Electric/Water slightly edges out Electric/Fighting in that department, even though Electric/Fighting is not all THAT bad of a STAB combination (since most that DO resist the combo are 4x weak to something else).
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EDIT: Also, just read Fuzznip's post. Yes, I agree. It's important to look at REAL threats than to look at the type resistances alone.
Considering how strong Water/Fire/Ice moves are in the metagame, I'm really liking Electric/Water right now, moreso than Electric/Fighting which gives us a bug rock and dark resist. Fire/Water/Ice are seen commonly throughout OU moreso than the latter three. The stealth rock resist is pretty nifty, though I wouldn't mind letting it go considering it's just an additional 6%. What's more important to me is that this pokemon gets the resists to Ice Beam, Hydro Pump, Waterfall, Fire Blast, Overheat, and Flamethrower.
Electric/Poison to me seems like a crapshoot in the sense that we're giving up on the ground weakness and intensifying it even more. If you take a look at shucatran, it only takes ground hits well to a certain extent. Not to mention, Heatran's bulky as hell. A 2x weakness is actually much easier to compensate for -- why doesn't Gyarados run Wacan more often in OU? Why does DDTar run Babiri commonly?
A Timid Scarf Rotom-a does 81.6% - 96.1% to the a Wacan Gyarados using Thunderbolt.
A Timid Scarf Rotom-a does 40.8% - 48% to a Wacan Gyarados WITHOUT a 4x weakness.
An Adamant CB Scizor does 43.9% - 51.8% to the standard Babiri DDTar with Bullet Punch.
An Adamant CB Scizor does 87.7% - 103.5% to the standard Babiri DDTAR WITH a 4x weakness.
Okay, so you're trying to tell me that a fucking doubling in damage output isn't something that bad? When you take half damage from a move, it's fine so long as you can kill the pokemon after the attack, but when this threat will nearly kill 4x weak mon with SR up, there is a problem. A 4x weakness is the last thing this CAP needs, and it's definitely more significant than some are trying to look past. And it's not like Gyarados and Tyranitar are complete pushovers in defense. Tyranitar has 100/110 defenses, Gyarados has 95/100.
While Electric/Poison has a Fighting and Electric resist that makes it shine, a Utility Counter should attempt to handle a variety of threats. While you can form stat spreads to counteract moves like Draco Meteor or Close Combat who usually 2hko most of OU, it's much harder to form stat spreads that allow for a pokemon to compensate for a 4x weakness. Earthquake or Draco Meteor, 450 or 210, pick your poison.
EDIT: or actually, don't pick your poison. pick your electric/water! :o
Electric/Poison to me seems like a crapshoot in the sense that we're giving up on the ground weakness and intensifying it even more. If you take a look at shucatran, it only takes ground hits well to a certain extent. Not to mention, Heatran's bulky as hell. A 2x weakness is actually much easier to compensate for -- why doesn't Gyarados run Wacan more often in OU? Why does DDTar run Babiri commonly?
A Timid Scarf Rotom-a does 81.6% - 96.1% to the a Wacan Gyarados using Thunderbolt.
A Timid Scarf Rotom-a does 40.8% - 48% to a Wacan Gyarados WITHOUT a 4x weakness.
An Adamant CB Scizor does 43.9% - 51.8% to the standard Babiri DDTar with Bullet Punch.
An Adamant CB Scizor does 87.7% - 103.5% to the standard Babiri DDTAR WITH a 4x weakness.
Okay, so you're trying to tell me that a fucking doubling in damage output isn't something that bad? When you take half damage from a move, it's fine so long as you can kill the pokemon after the attack, but when this threat will nearly kill 4x weak mon with SR up, there is a problem. A 4x weakness is the last thing this CAP needs, and it's definitely more significant than some are trying to look past. And it's not like Gyarados and Tyranitar are complete pushovers in defense. Tyranitar has 100/110 defenses, Gyarados has 95/100.
While Electric/Poison has a Fighting and Electric resist that makes it shine, a Utility Counter should attempt to handle a variety of threats. While you can form stat spreads to counteract moves like Draco Meteor or Close Combat who usually 2hko most of OU, it's much harder to form stat spreads that allow for a pokemon to compensate for a 4x weakness. Earthquake or Draco Meteor, 450 or 210, pick your poison.
EDIT: or actually, don't pick your poison. pick your electric/water! :o
I've decided that Elec/Water is easily the best typing here. The only other serious options at this point are Poison and Fighting, so let's take a look:
Fighting resists Dark, Bug, and Flying, removes the resistance to Flying, and introduces a weakness to Psychic. Of the first three, Dark moves are only used by Tyranitar (Specs Lucario Dark Pulse? gimme a break.) A couple of people have said Pursuit, but yeah, like people are going to be trying to Pursuit a utility counter. The only noteworthy case of Bug is Heracross's Megahorn, as U-turn is not relevant. We want a Pokemon that can counter various threats, not switch into U-turn and be forced right back out again. Rock is literally the only noteworthy type of those three, and that's only because it reduces Stealth Rock damage by less than seven percent. Whoop dee doo.
Poison is a little more interesting, because resisting Fighting is actually a big deal. Many of the hardest-hitting physical attackers in the Standard metagame are Fighting-types, like Lucario, Machamp, Infernape, and Breloom (whose Grass STAB is also resisted by Poison). On the other hand, a compound Ground weakness is absolute balls, and I really don't want to limit the Ability stage with cries of Levitate (this is the reason why i no longer support Grass). A weakness to Earthquake can be played around without much trouble, but a compound weakness really cannot.
Water on the other hand comes with three awesome resistances in Water/Fire/Ice, and only introduces a weakness to Grass (which can be rendered nearly negligible if we take the Vaporeon route and make Grass Knot super-weak).
Fighting resists Dark, Bug, and Flying, removes the resistance to Flying, and introduces a weakness to Psychic. Of the first three, Dark moves are only used by Tyranitar (Specs Lucario Dark Pulse? gimme a break.) A couple of people have said Pursuit, but yeah, like people are going to be trying to Pursuit a utility counter. The only noteworthy case of Bug is Heracross's Megahorn, as U-turn is not relevant. We want a Pokemon that can counter various threats, not switch into U-turn and be forced right back out again. Rock is literally the only noteworthy type of those three, and that's only because it reduces Stealth Rock damage by less than seven percent. Whoop dee doo.
Poison is a little more interesting, because resisting Fighting is actually a big deal. Many of the hardest-hitting physical attackers in the Standard metagame are Fighting-types, like Lucario, Machamp, Infernape, and Breloom (whose Grass STAB is also resisted by Poison). On the other hand, a compound Ground weakness is absolute balls, and I really don't want to limit the Ability stage with cries of Levitate (this is the reason why i no longer support Grass). A weakness to Earthquake can be played around without much trouble, but a compound weakness really cannot.
Water on the other hand comes with three awesome resistances in Water/Fire/Ice, and only introduces a weakness to Grass (which can be rendered nearly negligible if we take the Vaporeon route and make Grass Knot super-weak).
But then there's still the occasional Leaf Storm and Energy Ball... which I haven't seen anyone mention or even acknowledge the existence of when people discuss Electric-Water's Grass weakness. Just saying.
Electric Fighting as long as we don't make a viable electrivire and stick with the concept or Electric Water imo
Leaf Storm is seldom used except for Celebi and Roserade and even then it's not like they spam it. Energy Ball is totally negligible, I don't think anyone uses that move. Seed Bomb and Breloom you can make a case for but the point is that Grass Knot is used for Non-STAB coverage by the likes of Starmie, Empoleon, Latias, etc. Otherwise, the 3 OU Grass types are not prevalent enough to make Grass all that important to worry about.
I have to agree with the direction this is going. I think Water is the best choice but like last time, Poison is very intriguing. I didn't even think of it beforehand and it's certainly viable.
Leaf Storm is only seen on Celebi and maybe Roserade. No one uses Energy Ball within OU anymore because the targets of that moves are hit harder by Grass Knot and most have no STAB on it in the first place. The addition Grass weakness isn't really that bad when you think about it, and I'm seriously starting to like Electric/Water now. The key resistances in Ice and Fire are well worth the addition weakness, if you call it a weakness now.
Edit: God damnit people, stop beating me to the punch in terms of answering someone's comments.
After reading this post (which everyone should, if they haven't already), I have switched my support over to Electric/Water. while I don't think Fighting would hinder CAP10 at doing it's job, Water obviously has more desirable things going for it.
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