CAP 11 CAP 11 - Stat and Movepool Limits

[Rising_Dusk]

PS: Rank 6 (Very Good)
PT: Rank 5 (Good)
SS: Rank 7 (Excellent)
ST: Rank 5 (Good)
Overall Rating Limit: 350 (Very Good)
Movepool Limits: 75 Total / 35 VGM
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My case for these are as follows.

Physical Sweepiness
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This CAP needs a modest, but not seriously over the top physical sweepiness. It needs to be 'powerful enough', with a nice mesh of 'good enough' Speed in order to actually put its typing to much use in offensively supporting Togekiss. A lot of people are pretending that CAP11 should be slow so that it can benefit from Thunder Wave support better, but we need to keep in mind that our CAP does not have an incredibly amazing defensive typing, it has an incredible offensive typing. We need to complement that with stats that make sense alongside it. I, however, don't think that our CAP needs to be that amazing at physical sweeping, just being 'good enough' at it that it can scare Blissey and a lot of specially bulky Pokemon away with the threat of STAB Close Combat or Crunch (or whatever we give it).

Physical Tankiness
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It needs to be able to take hits remotely well. This doesn't mean that it should be a wall by any means, but it needs to avoid being OHKOed and 2HKOed by certain attacks such as Choice Scarf Tyranitar's Stone Edge (Despite resisting it, it's powerful). There isn't much really to say here; we can all agree that he needs to be able to take a hit or two before going down, but not overdo it.

Special Sweepiness
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Fortunately, a lot of others seem to agree with me here, so it's not like there's some fierce competition here. CAP11 should focus on being a special attacker. With STAB Fighting-type attacks and a modest Physical Sweepiness to scare off Blissey and Snorlax, he can focus on special attacks to really do some damage. Note that I am suggesting a limit of Rank 7 here. For comparison, Gengar has a Rank 9 Special Sweepiness, but much lower PS/PT/ST values than I am suggesting. I envision this CAP being slightly akin to Gengar, but less dramatic. This special attack stat also puts CAP11 in a good power seat for being Baton Passed Nasty Plot from Togekiss as an amusing gimmick.

Special Tankiness
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The same as Physical Tankiness. Whatever PS is, this should be the same. Why? Because there are equally as many special attacks, such as Zapdos's uninvested Thunderbolt, that CAP11 really wants to avoid being 2HKOed by. This is the cusp for the survival of such attacks, but I don't think CAP11 should be too defensive (or even nearly as specially bulky as Togekiss is, for comparison), otherwise it doesn't particularly need to switch out of some of the things that should threaten it.

Total Overall BSR / Movepool Limit
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We want a strong CAP, we don't want a broken one. 350 is a reasonable limit that allows us a lot of flexibility, while it also enables us 35 VGMs in our movepool. I think we're going to be giving CAP11 a sufficient amount of both physical and special moves, and in order to afford this we really need around 35 VGMs.

 

[Chateau]

PS: Rank 5 (Good)
PT: Rank 7 (Excellent)
SS: Rank 5 (Good)
ST: Rank 5 (Good)
Total: Rank 6 (Very Good)

My main suggestion is that while CAP11 should have the ability to sweep from both sides, we should err on the side of low Speed. This would bring the actual PS and SS rank down to Good/Below Average, but CAP11 should maximize the benefit of the fact that Togekiss often spreads Paralysis throughout the opponents team via Thunderwave. This would help greatly in differentiating from a Gyarados partner, as well as several others, as Gyarados would do nothing to compensate for this.

I also suggest that CAP11 should excel most in Physical Tankiness, for the obvious reason that Togekiss fails miserably in this area. The ability to counter several Special-based Togekiss threats was already covered by the CAP's typing, so its stats should focus on the plethora of physical hits that Kiss simply can't take such as Scizor's Bullet Punch or Tyrannitar's Stone Edge.

My proposed ST is enough to take one or two unboosted hits from things like Rotom-A and Zapdos and succesfully hit back with it's Dark STAB. Since Togekiss can tank most neutral special attacks, CAP11 shouldn't put too much effort in taking them itself.

As for choosing between high stats and an extensive movepool, I suggest neither. As Scoopapa said, a shallow movepool isn't much of a hindrance if you have godly offensive stats behind two great STABs. Also, a huge movepool will not be helpful in keeping CAP11 centralized around Togekiss. I'm not saying CAP11 should have only enough moves for two simple movesets, but each move should have a specific purpose for the Kiss/CAP11 pair.

Edit: Adding on to this, I suggest a special-biased movepool, but a SS Rank that is not quite enough to score crucial KO's on its own. This would be the perfect combination of traits to tie CAP11 to Togekiss, relying on a NastyPass to succesfully sweep.

 

[Chameleon]

PS: 4-5
PT: 6
SS: 6-7
ST: 6
Overall: 6-7

I've liked some of the ideas in previous posts, and this is what I've come up with so far.

First of all, I think mediocre speed is the way to go. That way we can comfortably outpace Tyranitar and Pokemon with bulky stat spreads, but not be able to sweep a team outright without paralysis support. (Under base 100, as an estimate)

Physical/Special Sweepiness: I think that the pokemon should be specially-based, but not physically worthless. Special offense suits taking on most of togekiss' counters and allows for successful Nasty Plot passing, but at least we have the option of using Close Combat or Superpower against Blissey. If we keep the speed under control our special attack can be quite respectable without soaring to SS rank 8.

Physcial/Special Tankiness: Decent mixed defenses. Maybe a slight special bias here to take T-bolts and Heat Waves better, but we need general survivability to fight Tyranitar and take nonstab fighting-type hits (Electivire). It's difficult to pull off a baton pass to a frail teammate, and it will make sure togekiss and the partner are not wrecked by bullet punches.

The movepool should not be much of an issue because the pokemon is (supposed to be) extremely specialized for Togekiss and has good STABs.

This set proabably resembles others somewhat, but I support them! Trying not to be too redundant. If this is the kind of redundant post you don't want, please tell me.

 

[DetroitLolcat]

We need something defensive enough to take hits that Togekiss couldn't, but ovvensive enough to provide offensive synergy with Togekiss.
Also, since the CAP11 will be a mate with Togekiss, it doesn't need a large movepool, as anything it can't beat Togekiss should beat, so I think that high stats and a smaller movepool would aid CAP11 more.

Also, Togekiss can take Special hits well, but not Physical hits (Close Combats, Outrages, etc.), so the CAP should have a high Physical Tankiness and a moderate Special Tankiness. It doesn't want to get raped by Jolteon, however.

Since Togekiss is Specially Biased, it could pass NP boosts to CAP11, so CAP11 should have a moderately high Special Sweepiness. Togekiss can be statused by Blissey and other Special Tanks, so CAP11 will need a way to beat Blissey without becoming Physically Biased, so CAP11 should have a somewhat low (but not too low!) Physical Sweepiness.

In conclusion, a Physically Defensive Special Attacker (much like Cyclohm!) would be Togekiss's Perfect Mate.

PS- 5
PT- 7
SS-6
ST- 6

Overall: 7

Also, are there any restrictions on the BST of a CAP?

 

[hand4hire]

I suggest we stay balanced, as other have suggested. As such, I think we should have slightly lower Special stats, but have them balanced enough to make Nasty Plot passing much more of a posibility. As such, I suggest something like:

Physical Sweepiness: Rank 5 (Good)
Physical Tankiness: Rank 6 (Very Good)
Special Sweepiness: Rank 5 (Good)
Special Tankiness: Rank 5 (Good)
-
Overall - Rank 6 (Very Good)

First of all, I believe that decent or speed or high attack, either one, can help this thing take down it's specially defensive opponents well enough and still work with Togekiss. Special attack was explained earlier. The Special tankiness and Physical tankiness are to allow it to switch in from Togekiss despite it's lack of resistances and take down the target, especially taking physical attacks aimed at it and turning them down.

I agree with these views, even if the person's opinion changes. Physical attacks should be a option, especially with STAB. Its physical defenses need to help it support Togekiss's defense, which is not its main defense stat. Special Offense is a good point and can be assisted by Nasty Plot. Special Tankiness is a good help to take the special attacks that Togekiss can't take a lot of, like Thunderbolt.

But mostly, it needs to be decent, but not so good that it outshines Togekiss (the whole point is to promotes Togekiss's use overall right?) as a general OU Pokemon.

 

[Fuzznip]

This is my stance on the general build of CAP 11.

I like the idea of making this CAP more specially-inclined from an offensive standpoint but keeping it with enough Attack so it can be used as a potential mixed attacker. Using Togekiss's ability to reliably Baton Pass Nasty Plot for CAP 11 to take advantage of is excellent, meaning that Togekiss and CAP 11 will support each other in some shape or form to good effect. Furthermore, CAP 11 doesn't need a lot of Attack to punch through specially defensive threats such as Blissey and Snorlax, among others, with its STAB Close Combat and Crunch and whatever else it happens to have in its physical movepool. So regarding CAP 11's offensive build, I'm thinking of making it more potent specially but retain some decent physical power.

The defensive build is a little more controversial, because I see people suggesting this CAP be physically defensive or specially defensive. I can see where people are coming from with making CAP 11 physically defensive because of how excellent Togekiss is already on the special side. So basically, the main argument for a physically defensive CAP 11 is that it accommodates Togekiss's rather poor Defense, which I can see how that would be good defensive synergy. However, there are also good points about a specially defensive CAP 11. Togekiss's Rock weakness is already covered by CAP 11 with its part Fighting-type, but we still haven't done anything for Togekiss's other weaknesses to Electric and Ice. Electric and Ice are most commonly known for their special attacks such as Thunderbolt and Ice Beam, so if we make CAP 11 more specially defensive, it could take a few Thunderbolt and Ice Beam hits from the likes of Jolteon and Starmie, respectively.

Having said that, I am not entirely certain which way to go for CAP 11 on a defensive standpoint. Therefore, I would like some more discussion whether CAP 11 is better suited being primarily physically defensive, specially defensive, or even a mix of both, for Togekiss. Also note that these defenses are not going to be very high because I want CAP 11 to be focused on offense, not defense. So from this post forward, I would like to see some opinions on CAP 11's defensive bias so I can make a final decision tomorrow night. Remember that your ultimately trying to convince me and not anybody else, so if you have a good idea of where the bias for CAP 11's defenses should be, make your arguments count. Thanks!

 

[familyguyman]

This is my stance on the general build of CAP 11.

I like the idea of making this CAP more specially-inclined from an offensive standpoint but keeping it with enough Attack so it can be used as a potential mixed attacker. Using Togekiss's ability to reliably Baton Pass Nasty Plot for CAP 11 to take advantage of is excellent, meaning that Togekiss and CAP 11 will support each other in some shape or form to good effect. Furthermore, CAP 11 doesn't need a lot of Attack to punch through specially defensive threats such as Blissey and Snorlax, among others, with its STAB Close Combat and Crunch and whatever else it happens to have in its physical movepool. So regarding CAP 11's offensive build, I'm thinking of making it more potent specially but retain some decent physical power.

The defensive build is a little more controversial, because I see people suggesting this CAP be physically defensive or specially defensive. I can see where people are coming from with making CAP 11 physically defensive because of how excellent Togekiss is already on the special side. So basically, the main argument for a physically defensive CAP 11 is that it accommodates Togekiss's rather poor Defense, which I can see how that would be good defensive synergy. However, there are also good points about a specially defensive CAP 11. Togekiss's Rock weakness is already covered by CAP 11 with its part Fighting-type, but we still haven't done anything for Togekiss's other weaknesses to Electric and Ice. Electric and Ice are most commonly known for their special attacks such as Thunderbolt and Ice Beam, so if we make CAP 11 more specially defensive, it could take a few Thunderbolt and Ice Beam hits from the likes of Jolteon and Starmie, respectively.

Having said that, I am not entirely certain which way to go for CAP 11 on a defensive standpoint. Therefore, I would like some more discussion whether CAP 11 is better suited being primarily physically defensive, specially defensive, or even a mix of both, for Togekiss. Also note that these defenses are not going to be very high because I want CAP 11 to be focused on offense, not defense. So from this post forward, I would like to see some opinions on CAP 11's defensive bias so I can make a final decision tomorrow night. Remember that your ultimately trying to convince me and not anybody else, so if you have a good idea of where the bias for CAP 11's defenses should be, make your arguments count. Thanks!

If we can mention Close Combat and Crunch as rationale for a build orientation then I will mention abilities like Thick Fat or Volt Absorb/Motor Drive (which I don't want for Gyarados synergy) or even a custom ability should we want to help mitigate special weaknesses. We don't need to build in our synergy with stats just like we didn't have to with typing; though we will at some point so there is justification for doing it now.

Truth be told, at this point, I am more scared of priority moves as we have no way around something like Bullet Punch. Ice Beam and Thunder Bolt can be mitigated via Roost from Togekiss or abilities on CAP11. Who is going to take a Bullet Punch or Extreme Speed? With paralysis being Togekiss' best friend, things that mitigate the speed cut are her worst enemy. Despite Salamence's ban likely leading to less Scizor use, he's still a monster threat. Remember, we already can take on many offensive threats with our offensive STAB including Heatran, Gengar, Starmie, etc. Defensively, if Togekiss can't take them then no stat spread will save us thanks to the relatively mediocre special defensive typing we have,

Summary:
We will need an ability for CAP11 to step up on special defense or else Togekiss will likely outclass him making the bias pointless. Therefore we should go to physical defense with stats as we can't cover physical holes with an ability like we can with special holes.

 

[LouisCyphre]

Fuzznip, I would suggest favoring neither defense, instead having just enough bulk on either side to scrape by the Rock, Ice, or Electric attacks from - say, Starmie's Ice Beam, Aerodactyl's (not so much Tyranitar's, who is destroyed by just about anything Fighting-type) Stone Edge, and Jolteon's T-bolt - while barely eking out a 3HKO at worst. The emphasis is on offense, and on defending with offense.

I'm of the opinion that CAP11 should escape damage with moves like Substitute (a CAP required move) and Detect, possible priority attacks in Mach Punch, Vacuum Wave, and Sucker Punch, or other means beyond raw stats.

Alternatively, many people have opted for higher HP with lower defensive stats. With a Wailord-esque defensive spread (although likely not as extreme as Wailord's 170/45/45), this decision could be left to the player and his or her EVs - determining whether they want to lol heartily at Stone Edge or BoltBeam. Although, this runs the risk of making CAP11 defensively adaptable to other partners beyond 'Kiss.

(Pointing out of flaws in this argument would be welcome; I have a nagging feeling I'm missing something.)

familyguybroman, CAP11 resists Bullet Punch with its Fighting Typing. Extremespeed is less common, but still a cause for some concern. More concerning is Mach Punch and Vacuum Wave weakness. Lacking either defense leaves CAP11 open to a super-effective priority move that also hits neutral (with likely STAB) on 'Kiss. Dilemma!

 

[Zakki]

At fuzznip's comment, I again suggest the Blaze build I suggested earily in the thread

Blaze Build:
PS: 5
PT:5
SS: 6
St: 5
Overall: 5

(inversed Blaziken's Attack and Sp.Atk because we are leaning towards Special, and dropped 10 base points in speed. Blaziken's PS is 7 and SS is 6)

This Build would over all be a very offensive pokemon with same base defenses (around base 70) which because of the drop I gave is speed when calculating stats the PS and SS could be put to 6 and 7 respectfully or more bulk to the defenses but at the same time still rely on Togekiss passing or T-waves because of the speed.
[for all that don't know or won't be bothered to look but still comment on it. The build numbers don't look that good but the build for Atk and SpAtk would mean there between 110 and 120ish]




Lastly

CAP11 resists Bullet Punch with its Fighting Typing.

For the last time, for all that keep saying it, Fighting does not resist Steel and Rock is not super-effected by Ice. They're both neutral. Check the type chart if you're unsure of something.

 

[Ice-eyes]

I've been experimenting with some possible spreads, and I think we should make CAP 11's base stat limitations relatively flexible. The defenses should be roughly even, so that CAP 11 can be customised to fit the requirements of the Togekiss team which it fits on as well as potentially allowing it to mesh with whatever abilities it gets.

I am also of the opinion that Speed should be high. Togekiss tends to struggle against powerful, offensive teams because it is relatively slow, especially for a sweeper with common weaknesses that isn't all that bulky. Most of Togekiss' checks/counters sit in that 85-105 speed range, so CAP 11 should be able to deal with them. A fast CAP 11 might also have trouble with very bulky pokemon, because its SpA (and Atk) wouldn't be all that high if it had high speed. Togekiss is adept at dismantling these pokemon, ripping through slower teams that can't rely on Blissey.

Moreover, a fast CAP 11 would have to have relatively high physical sweepiness, because it would need to dent Blissey. In my opinion, it should have a high enough Attack stat that it should not have to worry about predicting a Blissey switch-in, and should be able to switch into a modestly damaged Blissey and force it out. STAB Superpower coming off 90 base Attack deals about 80% on average to 4/252 Calm Blissey, enough to put it out of commission after it switches into SR and an attack from Togekiss or CAP 11. This would be the sort of base Attack range that I feel CAP 11 would need to partner Togekiss.

With this in mind, my stat limits would be:
PS: 6
PT: 5-6
SS: 7
ST: 5-6
Overall: 6-7

This would pave the way for a spread roughly along the lines of:
120-130 / 90 / 65-70 / 105 / 65-70 / 105

 

[DetroitLolcat]

I would like to reiterate my point of CAP11 being Physically Bulky over Specially. Togekiss can take Special hits, including nonSTAB boltbeams, relatively easily but cannot take Close Combats and Outrages very well. If we made CAP11 Physically bulky, then it could come on (obviously not CC) many strong physical attacks that would kill Togekiss. Obviously, CAP11 will need some special bulk to take attacks from Azelf and the like, but Physical Bulk is more important in designing a perfect mate for Togekiss. The PS is purely to kill Blissey. Damn lard blob.

The Spread:
PS- 5
PT- 7
SS- 6
ST- 6
Ovr- 7

It is more important to have good stats than a good movepool. Remember, CAP11 will only be doing half the work.

 

[Deck Knight]

I really don't think Physical Tankiness above 5 is necessary in any way. Here's the largest base power for an available physical move for each type:

Normal: Double-Edge 120, Return 102. You're really only going to see physical Normal STAB from Snorlax. Any other time you encounter a physical normal move it's probably going to be Explosion, in which case you're toast anyway.

Bug: Megahorn 120, X-Scissor 80. The former is Heracross only, and while I imagine Heracross usage will go up, Togekiss resists Megahorn so it'd probably select Close Combat anyway.

Dark: Crunch/Sucker Punch 80. This is 4x resisted by CAP 11.

Dragon: Outrage 120. I'd like to see anything that isn't part Steel deal with this. Still, Mence is gone now so the only users left are Dragonite, Kingdra, and Flygon.

Electric: Thunderpunch 75. This is super-effective except when Togekiss roosts. Otherwise it's so weak even Electivire doesn't opt to use it a decent portion of the time.

Fighting: Focus Punch 150, Close Combat/Superpower 120. This stuff is going to slaughter CAP 10 and Togekiss regardless of defense, really.

Fire: Flare Blitz 120, Fire Punch 75. Short of the odd all-physical Ape, you're really only going to run into Fire Punch. See Thunderpunch for details.

Flying: Brave Bird 120, Drill Peck 80. Mostly this is going to come from Skarmory, who isn't an offensive juggernaut. Staraptor could come back though, and then it might be troublesome.

Ghost: lol Physical Ghost. Seriously? Dusknoir's the only thing touching that with a 10-foot poll in OU, Togekiss is immune, CAP 11 resists. Next.

Grass: Seed Bomb 80. Togekiss resists this although the primary user is the eternal nuisance Breloom, who needs to be guarded against for Focus Punch anyway.

Ground: Earthquake 100. The most common attack in OU, Rank 5 and neutrality as well as Togekiss' immunity hander it well enough.

Ice: Ice Punch 75. See Punch, Thunder.

Poison: lol. Is Druidcruel coming back?

Psychic: Zen Headbutt 80. Azelf is probably going to explode instead. CAP 11 is immune.

Rock: Stone Edge 100, Togekiss is weak, CAP 11 resists, most often paired with Earthquake. Roost can get rid of the weakness temporarily as well.

Steel: Meteor Mash 100, Iron Head 80, Bullet Punch 40. Or, Metagross and Jirachi, respectively. These will have to be worked around somehow but since the former can boost attacks, investing a lot in Physical Tankiness probably isn't going to help. Jirachi's worst enemy is paralysis. CB Bullet Punch is a concern, ideally we can have enough bulk to avoid a 2HKO. This might need more physical tankiness than 5 but Scizor is a nuisance I think would be best handled by a third core member, perhaps Magnezone.

Water: Waterfall 80. Mostly this means Gyarados and maybe the odd Aqual Tail user.

So to summarize, most of the physical STAB in OU is either weak, or CAP 11 simply can't deal with it. Rank 5 Tankiness should be able to get the job done for most of this, otherwise having too much physical Tankiness detracts from the job we want CAP 11 to do. Most of these physical STABs don't break 80, and those that do, even rank 6 or 7 physical tankiness would be insufficient to help.

 

[Zakki]

Again, I propose the Blaze build that I mentioned before. Alright defenses and is a offensive juggernaut on both fronts, I find it very Ideal. Plus it has better typing than the base, Blaziken, so I think it would work much better.

Oh, side point, the steels can be countered very easily by possibly Magnezone only for Scizor and the occasional Rachi that doesn't carry Fire Punch, but the most that carry Iron head are also Scarf so and Steel trap would work. Weezing would also work very nicely with all of those as the third Fail-safe rule, threatening all with WoW or Flamethrower.

 

[X-Act]

About Drill Peck, I was also thinking about Zapdos maybe starting to slot it in somehow... making it a pretty good CAP11/Togekiss combo counter. I don't play at all, but STAB Supereffective Drill Peck from 90 base Atk isn't bad even with no EVs.

 

[Zakki]

Yes, but a good Ice or Strong Dark move, maybe a signature move like Psycho Boost, would be able to counter the counter-counter.

sorry that might be poll-jumping a little. ^^

Well that coming off a really good special (what I keep proposing) would one or two shot. And the bulk of what Blaziken has should be able to take one. I'll go run damage calcs....


Edit: Both Physical and special walls variants of Zapdos doing Drill peck to no def EVs Blaziken: 70.4% - 83.7%
Well enough to take one and counter if need be.

Edit2: if the Zapdos runs more Attack, that means less defense in either, making it easier to KO the Zap.

 

[Rising_Dusk]

I agree with Deck Knight. Rank 5 Physical & Special Tankiness is all we really need for the offensive Pokemon we're looking to make. This makes us a little bulkier than Infernape, but a little less sweepy physically. (Works out to roughly the same BSR either way, if we play it right) There's really no need to be terribly bulky here; offensive cores do not have to switch directly to each other (many of the best ones use pivots), so they can afford a bit more offensive potency in exchange for some of their general bulk. I think using CAP11 as the offensive threat hiding behind Togekiss, who toys with the earlier game, is the real way to do this.

 

[FlareBlitz]

Honestly when I was thinking of this thing's bulk I was considering something like "a little bulkier than Machamp", which is why I wanted a rank 6 (iirc Machamp is on the high side of Rank 5). This lets us avoid 2hkos from certain things that barely 2hko Machamp (like Jolteon...) and high mixed bulk aids our typing in taking hits. We don't exactly have a blessed defensive typing as far as resistances go, so we can't get away with slightly-better-than-lucario level defenses. Tanking neutral hits from things we can't really expect to outspeed (like Starmie and Jolteon) requires, at the very very least, rank 6 special tankiness. I can see how rank 5 might be acceptable for physical tankiness, but I would still be pretty leery of Gyarados and especially CB Scizor.

 

[Venator]

I'm just stepping in to the thread to remind people that, while it would be acceptable to give it good Special Sweepiness, there are only three special Fighting-type moves one special Dark-type move so if we make it more physically-inclined, it would benefit from an extended movepool. Not to mention Togekiss' specialty is special sweeping.I understand where you are coming from with the Nasty Plots but we should still make it more physically offensive to go with the strong moves of both types. The Nasty Plots can be passed as a boost for potential mixed sweeping.

 

[Deck Knight]

Last time, a build like Blaziken, only more Specially inclined over physical. You all keep ignoring the valied point. High Offense, moderate defense, below average speed. Takes advantage of togekiss' T-Wave that it uses so much of the time.
If you want to know the Stat PS/PT/SS/ST for it, look at one of the 2 or 3 times I mentioned it that you probably glanced over. [for even further info, look at Blaziken's stats, not Ape's, ape doesn't muster enough in offense that we want, and the 108 Base speed will take in no way any advantage of the partnership with Togekiss]

Togekiss is too slow to sweep and often too slow to cripple an offensive threat with Twave. Relying on Togekiss to TWave means we have two Pokemon that are both too slow to really be an offensive threat, which is what we want to avoid in an offensive core. There's a reason Blaziken is UU and Infernape is OU, and that is that Ape's Speed lets it take out threats before they have a chance to move. This mostly impacts the Sweepiness score though, and why it's trending to 7 or 8. Speed tends to have the most impact on sweepiness, which is why Blaziken's is only at 6.

Rank 6 Sweepiness is insufficient to make this a decent offensive core with Togekiss. There is a long list of Pokemon with excellent, even devastating offenses and mediocre to poor speed. The list is more formally known as UU and NU.

 

[Gothic Togekiss]

So we all mostly agree that CAP11 needs a SS ranking of 7 or 8 and a PS of rank 5 to 6 to be sufficient enough threat? Now since PT/ST are in question, I would like to say that having a PT/SS ranking of 5 or 6 in both tankiness stat would be very acceptable for CAP11's purposes. This range would allow it to survive some hits while not totally walling things to death. Beside it's a sweepers and sweepers don't need shitloads of defense to do their jobs.

BTW, is they're any agreement on how fast should CAP11 be? Is they're any threats that CAP11 must outspeed at all cost?

 

[Naxte]

Togekiss is too slow to sweep and often too slow to cripple an offensive threat with Twave. Relying on Togekiss to TWave means we have two Pokemon that are both too slow to really be an offensive threat, which is what we want to avoid in an offensive core. There's a reason Blaziken is UU and Infernape is OU, and that is that Ape's Speed lets it take out threats before they have a chance to move. This mostly impacts the Sweepiness score though, and why it's trending to 7 or 8. Speed tends to have the most impact on sweepiness, which is why Blaziken's is only at 6.

Rank 6 Sweepiness is insufficient to make this a decent offensive core with Togekiss. There is a long list of Pokemon with excellent, even devastating offenses and mediocre to poor speed. The list is more formally known as UU and NU.

In addition to this, I'd just like to mention that Togekiss does have terrible four moveslot syndrome. It really wants to run Air Slash/Aura Sphere/Nasty Plot/Roost/Baton Pass/Thunder Wave/Flamethrower/Tri Attack/etc, but it can't--just like all other Pokemon, it has to pick four of them. And as a result, if possible, Togekiss would definitely appreciate it more if it wasn't forced to run T-Wave. It would really like the slot being able to go to another coverage move, or something like Roost or Nasty Plot instead. Forcing Togekiss to give up a slot for T-Wave to support both it and CAP11 really isn't making the best use of Togekiss's skills, and as a result, isn't helping the pair as much as if Togekiss could use the slot on something else, so Rank 6 Sweepiness really doesn't seem to be decent enough to me.

tl;dr--I pretty much agree with everything that Deck is saying here.

 

[Venator]

Do people really want to regulate 'Kiss' duty of Special Sweeping to CAP 11? Wouldn't that be the opposite of helping 'Kiss?

 

[Chameleon]

Not to poll jump, but I think that the ability choice has a large impact on how we allocate our speed and defensive stats, along the lines of what familyguyman thinks. Unless we invest in base 115-130 speed, pokemon like jolteon and starmie might give us trouble. To sweep them, let alone come in on them, we need a decent amount of special defense unless we resist or are immune to their attacks.

In response to Fuzznip's post, I think that physcial defense is the way to go, since as an offensive pair they resist no priority moves minus shadow sneak and sucker punch and scizor will be a pain. Physical defense will also complement togekiss' nice Special defense, of course. So it's basically just for assuring that sweeps assisted by togekiss are not cut too short, and that our CAP can switch into resisted hard-hitters like Tyranitar for Kiss as needed.

I'm a little iffy on high speed because I think paralysis support is another good way to keep CAP11 bound to togekiss, but I guess it could work as a diffeerent approach.

Do people really want to regulate 'Kiss' duty of Special Sweeping to CAP 11? Wouldn't that be the opposite of helping 'Kiss?

If Togekiss does an amazing job of helping CAP11 sweep, it's usage will increase, and CAP11 will have succeeded by making Kiss more useful in the metagame. Let's hope that Togekiss can help more than others, though.

 

[Comet]

So, before my proposal, let's remember Togekiss's BSR.

Phys Sweep - 3 - 50
Phys Tank - 5 - 95
Spec Sweep - 6 - 120
Spec Tank - 6 - 115
Overall Rat. - 6 - 380

With that knowledge in mind, we have to make a Dark-Fighting pokemon connect with a Normal-Flying pokemon. Our lustful birdy has three main weaknesses - Rock, Ice, and Electric. Our interesting typing currently makes us able to resist rock, but leaves us susceptible to Ice and Electric attacks. Therefore, I suggest we go deeper into our weaknesses before we make our offensive stats.

Our first main weakness is Ice. Ice type is considered by many to be the worst of all types defensively. It only resists itself, while carrying many common weaknesses to Fighting, Fire, Rock and Steel, which contain moves such as Stealth Rock, Bullet Punch, Brick Break, and Flamethrower. Offensive-wise, though, Ice is one of the most powerful and most commonly used types. The common preference of moves for special is Ice Beam and a randomly-carried Ice Punch for physical. Our current Fighting-base typing would make countering Ice easy, but let's think, how many Ice types are in OU? The only ones that come to mind are Mamoswine and Weavile. Both of these pokemon are fairly tough, but have some common weaknesses to exploit. Weavile with his poor defenses will be OHKO'd by a simple Mach Punch. Mamoswine, with his nice bulk, is a bit tougher to handle on the other hand. Mamo would need to a Close Combat and a Mach Punch to be fully knocked-out. How common are these two though in the metagame? Well, Weavile has carved out a spot as #35 on the usage list, and Mamoswine down a notch at #38. This means you're going to see either one of them in a regular match 1 out of 10 times. With this, how come Ice is such a common type then? Well, Water type ALWAYS has access to mooch Ice's moves, bar Magikrap. There are sometimes other types who can wield an Ice Beam or Punch, but it's mostly dominated by Water. Water types mostly have nice attack stats and decent defenses, which means that either way, Physical or special, they would be damaging about the same.

The second main weakness is Electric, which we neither resist, or can effectively counter-attack with stab due to our typing. In battle, Electric-types can prove useful as both offensive and defensive players. Electric types make for very good offensive Pokémon, as they have decent Speed and high Special Attack stats. Our main electric threats come from Jolteon, Zapdos, Rotom, and Electivire. Jolteon and Electivire can't take an earthquake, and Rotom will faint if near any Dark moves, but Zapdos can prove a real bother. He's only weak to Rock and Ice, and is normally a defensive monger who typically refuses to die and abuses roost. To efficiently take it down, you would need a strong special attack in regards to its neglected, often un-EV'd Special defense stat. Outside of regular electric types, T-bolt is moderately held by other pokemon of different types, such as Starmie or Azelf.

As of all this information, I currently propose that we aim for:

PS: Rank 6 - Very good
PT: Rank 5 - Good
SS: Rank 5 - Good
ST: Rank 6 - Very good

 

[DetroitLolcat]

In response to Deck;

High PT is really helpful to CAP11 because it allows it to survive a lot of attacks

For example, with a rank 7 PT it could possible come in on an Outrage and (with enough speed) kill the user of Outrage with whatever move. Remember, the only users of Outrage are Dragonite, Kingdra, and Flygon, which (except for Nite) don't have stellar Attack, and Nite doesn't always run max Attack. With only rank 5 PT, it might not be able to survive many hits.

Also, sometimes CAP11 could survive Explosions from non-Snorlaxes too!
A max HP/Def CAP11 could survive Metagross Explosions and non-Adamant Azelf booms too!

Two: how are we going to get around Iron Heads, Meteor Mashes, and *Bullet Punch*es either? With a high PT, CAP11 could potentially counter Jirachi, Metagross, and maybe even Scizor if it doesn't U-Turn, though Scizor shouldn't be coming in on Togekiss anyway in fear of being Superhaxed.

A high PT is necessary for CAP11 to come in on attacks and counter certain threats that could hamper Togekiss' sweep.