CAP 18 CAP 18 - Part 9 - Attacking Moves Discussion

[Korski]

The final competitive piece of the CAP puzzle is a complete Movepool. Here, we will begin shaping CAP 18's final movepool by discussing which competitive attacking moves the community believes should be accessible to this Pokemon. Our Movepool Leader is ginganinja and he will be leading this discussion and evaluating arguments for or against various attacking moves. At the conclusion of this thread, he will present a finalized list of attacking moves that users will be allowed to include in their Final Movepool submissions. When posting in this thread, be sure to focus your arguments toward ginganinja and his questions, as his is the primary authority in deciding the final list of allowed and disallowed moves.

An attacking move is a move that deals damage to an opponent as its main purpose or one of its main purposes. All other moves are considered non-attacking moves. It is important to distinguish attacking moves, which can be used specifically to deal damage, from non-attacking moves, which are used for some major effects but may happen to deal a small amount of damage. For some moves, such as Rapid Spin, this is clear-cut. However, the classification of moves such as U-turn and Volt Switch are dependent on the user's ability to damage the opponent with the move. Competitive moves are moves that are viable for use in battle on a given Pokemon. This categorization is also Pokémon-dependent.

The Movepool Leader has sole discretion for interpreting which moves are considered attacking or non-attacking, and which are considered competitive or non-competitive, for this project. He/she will post a list of competitive attacking moves in the first reply to this thread, and classify them into five or six groups:

• Required - Moves are those that must be in every movepool submission.
• Allowed - Moves that have been agreed through general community consensus to be allowed in the Pokémon's final movepool
• Disallowed - Moves that have been agreed through general community consensus to be disallowed from the Pokémon's final movepool
• Controversial - Moves that did not reach general community consensus, and will require a specific vote.
• Pending - Moves that have not received enough support or opposition to determine whether they are allowed, disallowed, or controversial
• Need Discussion (optional) - Moves that the Movepool Leader may want to draw specific attention to at any given time. This will be updated frequently, so check back frequently.

This list will serve as a single point-of-reference for the current state of the discussion. The community should make posts arguing for moves to be allowed or disallowed. The Movepool Leader will re-categorize the moves as the discussion progresses, until he/she deems the discussion over. The controversial moves will be put to a vote to determine whether they will be allowed or not.

Remember that, technically, nothing is set in stone until the thread is closed.

Rules for posting in this thread:

• All posts should be presented with reasoning. NO flavor-based logic will be tolerated.
• It is the responsibility of each user to check the OP before making any post in the thread, so as to stay relevant.
• Posting lists of moves is strictly prohibited, even with explanations. Do not copy the Move Leader's list, and then add "Yes/No" or a similarly worthless comment, beside each one.
• The Movepool Leader and Topic Leader are the sole arbiters for determining "general community consensus". The Movepool Leader may ignore arguments for or against certain moves, if he/she feel the argument is not presented with sufficient evidence or reasoning. Do not assume that the existence of a few dissenting posts will ensure that a move will be categorized as controversial.
• Non-competitive moves should not be discussed in this thread, unless you feel they are incorrectly categorized and should be considered competitive. In this case, you can post reasoned arguments in this thread.

This thread will be open for discussion as soon as ginganinja posts his opening remarks and questions for discussion.

--------------------

CAP18 so far:

Leadership Team:

DetroitLolcat - Topic Leader
jas61292 - Typing Leader
PttP - Ability Leader
srk1214 - Stats Leader
ginganinja - Movepool Leader

Concept: Major Third

General Description: A Pokemon that forms an effective offensive or defensive core with two lesser-used OU Pokemon.

Justification: Cores have always been an integral part of the metagame, whether you're running Talonflame/Staraptor to brute force everything, Slowbro/Amoonguss/Heatran for Regenerator-Leftovers stalling, or a whole team of Dragons + Magnezone. We've previously explored what it takes to make a successful partnership in CAP11 (Voodoom), but the metagame (and the simulator!) has changed dramatically since Voodoom's creation. I would also like to up the ante a little bit: Instead of just one, can we now take TWO Pokemon and find their missing piece? Whether we opt to build on an established two-Pokemon partnership or choose two previously unrelated Pokemon and put them together, I think that we can certainly find a Voodoom for a more offensive time.

Questions to Be Answered:

• How do effective cores in the current metagame differ fundamentally from the cores of previous metagames, if at all?
• Is synergy as important (relative to power) in the current metagame as it previously has been? (That is, has power creep rendered synergy unnecessary?)
• What differences are there between tailoring a Pokemon to two others and tailoring it to one? What else must be considered besides weaknesses and resistances?
• How does the addition of a Pokemon to a core change what other Pokemon can be effectively run alongside the core?
• Does Team Preview make running cores more difficult?
• Is it possible to create a core uncounterable by a single Pokemon? (For example, Celebi/Heatran/Jellicent was a very effective BW core that got slaughtered by Tyranitar. Can a core force opponents to counter it with another core?)
• Tagging onto the above, what is required to "counter-core" a core? What combination of offensive and defensive characteristics among "counter-core" members achieves this?

Pokemon CAP18 should threaten:

It's important that, first and foremost, we threaten the Pokemon and strategies that our core has no answer to. In general, the degree to which a Pokemon threatens Latias and Lucario should be the degree to which CAP18 threatens that Pokemon.

Ghost-type Pokemon: Aegislash, Gengar
Fairy-type Pokemon: Clefable, Mawile predominantly. Togekiss, Sylveon and Azumarill to somewhat lesser extents.
Some Fire-type Pokemon: Mega Charizard Y, Heatran, Talonflame to a much lesser extent.
Bug-type Pokemon: Scizor, Forretress, Volcarona.
Ground-type Pokemon*: Landorus-Therian, Hippowdon, Excadrill.

When I say "to a lesser extent", I mean that CAP 18 should be a threatening presence to this Pokemon, but it should not be an ultra-reliable counter. CAP18 should perform well against every Pokemon on this list, but that doesn't mean CAP18 needs to unconditionally switch into and force out these Pokemon. It should likely be able to do one or the other, but countering all of these Pokemon is neither feasible nor recommended.

CAP18 should be able to handle, either by switching in or 1v1, the Pokemon that defeat at least one of our core members that the other one cannot switch into. For example, Mega Charizard X is a Pokemon that defeats Lucario 1v1 that Latias can't switch into. If Multiscale is active, so is Dragonite. Gyarados, before it Mega Evolves, fits this bill.

*With a weakness to Ground, this will be a difficult task. We should threaten these Pokemon as well as we can, but we should not expect to counter Ground-types, but rather defeat them 1v1.

Pokemon CAP18 should be threatened by:

We should be okay with CAP 18 losing to Pokemon that the rest of our core handles well. For example, Latias is a tremendous answer to Rotom-W, and CAP18 is weak to Electric and does not have a STAB that can hit Rotom-W even neutrally. Rotom-W isn't particularly bothered by Fire- and Water-type support options, so making Rotom-W anything other than a threat to CAP18 is fitting a square peg into a round hole. Keldeo is a similar example, although Keldeo is so commonly paired with Pursuit Aegislash (the bane of this core) that it's not safe to let Keldeo counter this CAP.

Bulky Waters: Rotom-W, Keldeo to a much smaller extent.
Bulky Dragons: Latias, Latios, Goodra.
Walls with minimal offensive presence: Chansey, Blissey.

Pokemon not on either of our threatlists should be overly specifically threatening or threatened by CAP 18. Just because a Pokemon is not in the second list doesn't mean it is our prerogative to beat it. The same goes with Pokemon not in the first list: we shouldn't be expected to lose to every Pokemon that we don't threaten.

Typing: Fire / Water
Abilities: Analytic / Infiltrator / ???
Stats: 100 HP / 45 Atk / 80 Def / 135 SpA / 100 SpD / 95 Spe

 

[ginganinja]

O.k, it’s time to start off the attacking movepool discussion.


Looking at what we have so far, we have a given this CAP a solid platform to work with due to its nice STAB options, useful abilities, and a versatile stat spread that can be used offensively or defensively. For this reason, we have a number of options available within this attacking moves discussion, so I intend to start with a limited starting list which we can expand on as required.


-As per the concept I would like to remind everyone that we are building this CAP for a core with Lucario and Latias, therefore I would like to encourage people to reflect upon how certain moves interact with this core, are we covering weaknesses, shoring up strengths, and so on. Something I feel like highlighting is increasing the offensive pressure this CAP requires. A common vulnerability of this core is that currently, we are vulnerable to a select group of powerful set up sweepers can set up on one or two pokemon on this core, and sweep us cold. I believe that aggressive coverage options for this CAP should be discussed, provided we do not overreach and aim to defeat the list of pokemon our Topic Leader has already identified as us to be vulnerable to. When you are discussing, promoting, and / or justifying certain moves, please be aware of the above list. If someone wants to start hyping up Seed Flare (for example), I would require strong reasoning as to why we need coverage against Rotom-W, a listed counter.


-Lastly calculations are heavily advised when arguing over select moves. Due to Analytic and a high Special Attack stat, even unSTABed options can hit very hard, thus, I would very much appreciate calculations, strong justifications, and/or relevant competitive examples to go with your posts, as it strengthens your arguments.


Pending

Need Discussion

Overheat
Sludge Wave / Sludge Bomb
Signal Beam

Required

Return/Frustration
Hidden Power
Façade
Hyper Beam
Round
Giga Impact

Allowed

Fire Blast
Aura Sphere
Hydro Pump
Lava Plume
Scald
Flamethrower
Surf
U-Turn
Flash Cannon
Power Gem
Clear Smog

Disallowed

Grass Moves
Air Slash
Electric Special Attacking Coverage
Dragon Special Attacking Coverage
Ice Special Attacking Coverage
Dark Special Attacking Coverage
Ghost Special Attacking Coverage
Fairy Special Attacking Coverage
Bug Special Attacking Coverage
Water Spout
Eruption
Volt Switch
Knock Off
Psyshock
Fiery Dance
Acid Spray
Belch
Other coverage moves over 80 BP


Controversial

Overheat
Sludge Wave / Sludge Bomb


Thats it, the threads now open, Movepool Discussion can now begin, you can all go crazy now. I'll be checking the thread often, and will be contributing as much as possible. Have fun!

 

[FMD]

Scald should definitely be an option for both flavor and interaction with the core. It would provide a fairly powerful STAB option with a decent chance to burn, which would augment Latias's natural bulk by artificially doubling what she can take on the physical side.
Volt Switch, I feel, would hit bulky waters types far too hard, particularly Gyarados. I am rather against any Electric coverage move in general because of its affect on the Pokemon that would otherwise wall us in much the same way as Grass type moves would. That being said, I do believe it would provide a nice way to further punish switches.
Continuing on what I said above, U-Turn seems like a great option to shift to one of the other core members to better handle threats that this CAP cannot deal with.
Eruption and Water Spout are FAR too powerful to be considered. With a Specs set, it deals unacceptably high damage to many of the supposed counters.

252+ SpA Choice Specs Analytic Abomasnow Eruption (150 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Latias: 214-252 (70.8 - 83.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

[Mova]

I second Dragonblaze's statement on Eruption and Water Spout, as like they said, those moves almost destroy our supposed counters.

Oh, and this may be obvious, but if you multiply the Choice Specs and Analytic boosts to its 405 Special Attack, you get ~789 Special Attack right off the zubat!

 

[Don Cacturne]

A few calculations dealing with Scald.

252+ SpA Analytic CAP Scald vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mega Charizard Y in Sun: 168-200 (56.5 - 67.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ SpA CAP Scald vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Heatran: 204-242 (52.8 - 62.6%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ SpA CAP Scald vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Hippowdon: 390-458 (92.8 - 109%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO

252+ SpA CAP Scald vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Landorus-T: 356-420 (93.1 - 109.9%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO

252+ SpA CAP Scald vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Excadrill: 420-494 (116 - 136.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

 

[FireArrow]

Fire Blast should be required, given all our calcs at previous stages regarding aegislash involved it.

Contrary to opinions above, I think Eruption/Water Spout should be allowed. Cap18 is gonna need a free switch and defog support to muscle through it's counter, which seems much more pro concept to me.

 

[Ecthel]

Volt Switch - Absolutely not. Electric coverage is dubious as it is when we're supposed to be threatened by water types, especially when VS lets CAP get away from them and generate momentum essentially for free. This is unacceptable.
U-Turn - Presents an interesting choice. If you know your attack won't do damage worth anything anyway (Blobs, for instance), you can U-turn out instead. But you miss out on the point of using CAP, which is switch punishment. Worth including.
Water Spout/Eruption - The above calc holds true with a much weaker boosting item:

252+ SpA Wise Glasses Analytic CAP Eruption vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Latias: 156-185 (51.6 - 61.2%) -- 96.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

This doesn't seem acceptable.
Fire Blast - Very important for Aegislash, no reason not to include it.
Surf/Scald/Hydro Pump - Don't see an issue with including all of them, though Scald > Surf for the most part.

 

[Kappaten]

As far as Poison/Steel attacking coverage, I think Sludge Wave/Sludge Bomb definitely look like moves to consider. CAP 18 is supposed to threaten fairies, so we pretty much have to include either a Steel- or Poison-type coverage move. Steel is pretty much limited to Flash Cannon, and Poison gives us two primary options in Sludge Wave and Sludge Bomb. There's not a ton of difference in what we're hitting with Sludge Wave vs Bomb, though the reduced poison chance of Wave might be better if CAP is going to be using Scald a lot (not to mention every fire type gets Will-o-Wisp, but that's a different thread). The primary downside that I'm seeing is that Poison isn't resisted by the bulky waters that are supposed to threaten CAP, unlike the Steel-type Flash Cannon. Flash Cannon's lower base power, however, is very noticeable vs some of the fairies CAP is meant to threaten:

252+ SpA Life Orb CAP 18 Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Togekiss: 190-224 (50.8 - 59.8%) -- 81.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Life Orb CAP 18 Sludge Wave vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Togekiss: 200-237 (53.4 - 63.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Life Orb CAP 18 Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Togekiss: 169-200 (45.1 - 53.4%) -- 1.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Edit: now that I've slept, I guess Flash Cannon wouldn't be all bad with specs. I still think the extra power from a Poison-type move will help break Cosmic Power Clefable.

 

[canno]

It's like 12 right now, so this post might be a little dumb, but here you go.

First of all, I would like to say that Fire Blast, Overheat, Surf, Scald, and Hydro Pump should be allowed. These are obvious STAB moves and none of them go against the concept, so there's no reason not to include them.

Grass Knot has had no discussion, and honestly think it should be allowed. Outside of Jellicent, Tentacruel, and Blastoise (the former not being that common but gives Lucario problems anyways so I think it's good, and the later being neutral to it anyways. Blastoise meanwhile I think is OK that we threaten, since Blastoise isn't that common in OU), most common Water-types don't really mind a Grass Knot. Rotom-Wash takes nothing from it (20 BP lol), and Keldeo and Azumarril are hit for the same amount Hidden Power Grass does (60 BP). And, while not a reason to use it, it isn't too farfetch'd flavor-wise, as octopuses are pretty damn smart.

 

[Vryheid]

Since this seems to be an inevitable suggestion on every specially offensive CAPmon, allow me to attempt to nip it in the bud- do not allow goddamn pain in the ass Earth Power. This Pokemon should be reasonably well checked by Electric types like Jolteon and Mega Ampharos, and the threat of OHKOing them all if it tanks a hit with a bulky set is ridiculous. It's not like it needs the move to be countering Steel types here anyways.

Fire Blast and Hydro Pump are obvious. It needs both of them to not only OHKO Aegislash but reliably punish most switchins. Flamethrower and Surf should also be options for players who want more accurate alternatives at the exchange of power.

Eruption and Water Spout are too powerful and would practically require the use of Chansey/Blissey to prevent it from scoring a KO every time it can throw out a free attack. We don't need a mini-Kyogre rocking our playtest, folks. Specs Eruption is so powerful it can actually 2HKO standard Blissey that try to switch in at full health:

252+ SpA Choice Specs Analytic CAP18 Eruption (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey: 414-487 (57.9 - 68.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
(the second hit) 252+ SpA Choice Specs CAP18 Eruption (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey: 319-376 (44.6 - 52.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

In terms of coverage moves, it really should learn Sludge Wave. Cosmic Power Clefable can come in practically for free on Latias and cause a lot of trouble for this core, and this is the best attack to threaten it that CAP18 can possibly get. Also, being able to smack Florges/Sylveon harder is always a nice option. It can squeak out some 2HKOs that Fire Blast can't manage:

252+ SpA Choice Specs CAP18 Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Sylveon: 183-216 (46.4 - 54.8%) -- 9.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs CAP18 Sludge Wave vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Sylveon: 210-248 (53.2 - 62.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs CAP18 Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Florges: 160-190 (44.4 - 52.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs CAP18 Sludge Wave vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Florges: 186-220 (51.6 - 61.1%) -- 94.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

More importantly, it threatens Azumarill which would otherwise have an easy time tanking any STAB move this Pokemon makes and setting up Belly Drum:

252+ SpA Choice Specs CAP18 Sludge Wave vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Azumarill: 418-494 (103.4 - 122.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

 

[Burt Racecar]

For our STABs i have no problem with any except for Eruption/Water Spout, those really would be too powerful.
Volt Switch would lessen the threat that rotom-w and other water types are meant to place on us, however U-turn, would be a more acceptable pivoting move for CAP18.

I disagree with sludge wave in terms of coverage.. here's what I wrote a couple of days ago when I saw this thread would be opening

I would like to suggest Flash Cannon, CAP18 currently has no way to threaten fairy types (bar resisting their attacks). Furthermore, it's not unheard of for fairies to carry Hidden Power ground either (they may certainly do this to a higher frequency in the CAP tier in order to check CAP18.), so a pure resist won't cause many fairies to switch.

As of now we can only threaten Mawile with fire STAB and Azumarill with capabilities to burn. So this leaves the other fairies on our threat-list to deal with, notably Clefable, Sylveon and Togekiss, and Flash Cannon suits this perfectly. Remember it would also be resisted by the water types on our threat-list (Rotom-W, Keldeo), which is predominantly why I believe a steel move should be used to threaten fairies and NOT a poison move.

Rotom-W switching into an analytic sludge wave is going to do a lot of damage, and if we want to be countered by rotom-w, a poison move is the wrong choice for fairy coverage. Unfortunately I'm not good with calculations, so I apologise for the lack thereof. Furthermore, I don't think a super-effective hit on Azumarill warrants justification for a poison move when we can already cripple it with a burn - (and we'd hit it neutrally with flash cannon anyway).

 

[escarlata]

Scald and Fire Blast are pretty much necessary, though the other options like Hydro Pump, Surf, Flamethrower are good to have.

Volt Switch or any Electric coverage are a bit too much when we are supposed to be threaten by Water types.

252 SpA Choice Specs Analytic CAP18 Volt Switch vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Rotom-W: 144-170 (47.3 - 55.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

2HKOing Rotom-W with a momentum move is too much imo, especially that means just about every other relevant Water type will take massive damage switching in even if they are supposed to threaten us. So U-turn seems to fit as a momentum grabber better.

Coverage for Dragons should be avoided for the same reasons as why Electric coverage should not be used. By extension, since we are supposed to not be threatened by Lati@s, Dark/Ghost coverage is also unideal. We already have Scald for Gengar.

252 SpA Choice Specs Volcanion Scald vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Gengar: 255-301 (97.3 - 114.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Analytic Volcanion Scald vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Gengar: 222-262 (84.7 - 100%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Choice Specs Analytic Volcanion Scald vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Gengar: 331-391 (126.3 - 149.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Flash Cannon seems more fitting than Sludge Wave for reasons Toebag mentioned, and the most relevant defensive Fairy (Sylveon) in OU is 2HKO-ed by Flash Cannon anyway.

252 SpA Choice Specs CAP18 Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Sylveon: 214-254 (54.3 - 64.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Analytic CAP18 Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Sylveon: 280-330 (71 - 83.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Analytic CAP18 Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Sylveon: 210-248 (53.2 - 62.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Choice Specs Analytic CAP18 Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Azumarill: 209-247 (51.7 - 61.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Choice Specs CAP18 Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Azumarill: 161-190 (39.8 - 47%) -- 41% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Azumarill cannot switch into Flash Cannon with SR, for it is a 2HKO even with min rolls.

 

[M-WHALE]

I personally think Overheat should be allowed- It's crazy powerful but you have to sacrifice a ton of momentum and cannot 2HKO many checks and counters due to the SpA. drop, unlike Eruption. It's also a TM that almost every Fire type gets- it seems like there is almost no reason we wouldn't Allow it on CAP 18.

 

[turd bunny]

volt-switch should not be allowed because any switch in, like rotom-w, would be hit by analytic boosted volt switch and would allow a transition to a counter or check. u-turn would be a little more acceptable imo but it would still give CAP 18 more utility than wanted. grass knot sounds fine as it does not threaten any counters very well. i agree with previous on fire blast, hydro pump, and all o that.

 

[FMD]

Sludge Wave and Sludge Bomb are very acceptable, but admittedly not optimal.

252+ SpA Choice Specs Analytic CAP Hydro Pump/Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Rotom-W: 135-159 (44.4 - 52.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ SpA Choice Specs Analytic CAP Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Rotom-W: 148-175 (48.6 - 57.5%) -- 53.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

That... Really isn't that great of a damage increase, especially not enough to warrant disallowing the move. This is mainly because we're comparing a resisted 110 STAB (82.5 effective power) against a neutral coverage move with 90 power. This is a 8.3% increase of power numerically and the final damages (which are rounded to the nearest point of HP) are doing 8.6-9% more damage. I really don't feel at all like this is enough to justify banning Sludge Bomb from discussion. This is 4.1-4.2% more total HP damage, not even enough to offset Leftovers recovery.

The thing with Grass Knot is... It's not really going to be hitting much and have very little competitive value unless Jellicent, Vaporeon or Gastrodon becomes a thing, or if Mega Gyarados switches in already transformed.

252+ SpA Choice Specs Analytic CAP Grass Knot (60 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Vaporeon: 300-354 (64.6 - 76.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ SpA Choice Specs Analytic CAP Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Vaporeon: 206-243 (44.3 - 52.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ SpA Choice Specs Analytic CAP Grass Knot (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Gyarados: 456-538 (115.7 - 136.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ SpA Choice Specs Analytic CAP Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Gyarados: 156-185 (39.5 - 46.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252+ SpA Choice Specs Analytic CAP Grass Knot (100 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Jellicent: 334-394 (82.6 - 97.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ SpA Choice Specs Analytic CAP Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Jellicent: 138-162 (34.1 - 40%) -- 37.7% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

What we should be considering is what these Pokemon mean to the core. Each of these three Pokemon are bulky Water types that can reliably hinder us (Mega Gyarados notably having Dragon Dance and Mold Breaker Earthquake), but they are also really the only Pokemon that threaten us and are seriously harmed by Grass Knot. What we need to decide is if these Pokemon should really threaten us or not if we want to consider Grass Knot as a move.

 

[Wayan Vistar]

I completly agree that Overheat should be learnable by CAP. Also, it should get Hydro Pump/Surf/Scald as pretty much every water type gets them. Same goes for Fire Blast/Flamethrower. As for ice coverage, most water types get Ice Beam.

 

[Pata Hikari]

I think in general, Ice type coverage shouldn't be allowed. One thing that's supposed to check CAP is Latias

 

[V4LOVER]

Would Freeze Dry be possible?

Freeze-Dry seems to be more of a niche for Ice-types, and it isn't really needed on CAP18. We need to be checked to some degree by bulky waters and dragons, not destroy them.

252+ SpA Choice Specs CAP18 Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Rotom-W: 105-123 (34.5 - 40.4%) -- 49% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs CAP18 Freeze Dry vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Rotom-W: 178-210 (58.5 - 69%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ SpA Choice Specs Analytic CAP18 Hydro Pump vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Latias: 157-186 (51.9 - 61.5%) -- 97.7% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Analytic CAP18 Freeze Dry vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Latias: 268-316 (88.7 - 104.6%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO

This isn't necessary. These two are supposed to check us.

Meanwhile, Grass Knot may be a thing, but

252+ SpA Choice Specs CAP18 Grass Knot (20 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Rotom-W: 52-62 (17.1 - 20.3%) -- possible 7HKO after Leftovers recovery

it's not doing jack shit compared to our STABs.

EDIT: On the contrary

252+ SpA Choice Specs Analytic CAP18 Grass Knot (60 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Keldeo: 314-370 (97.2 - 114.5%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO

 

[Mektar]

But what about Ice Beam? Most water types have access to it, and it would give CAP a great way to deal with powerful, core-shattering threats like Garchomp and Landorus. Also, Rotom still checks us. On the other hand, Ice Beam would be deadly to opposing Latias, and the only Fire type that gets the move is Arceus. I'm honestly not sure.

 

[Kappaten]

Ice moves don't seem like good options. It doesn't make a lot of sense for a Fire/Water type to learn an ice move in the first place, besides them breaking the bulky dragons that are supposed to threaten CAP18.

 

[Yayz]

I see nothing that says we can't discuss the pending options, so I'd just like start a very short discussion.

Regarding Dark / Ghost-type coverage, I say no, because:

252 SpA Analytic CAP Dark Pulse vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Latias: 186-220 (61.5 - 72.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Without Analytic, it's still 47.6 - 56.2%.
252 SpA Analytic CAP Dark Pulse vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Latios: 214-254 (70.8 - 84.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Without Analytic, it's still 54.9 - 64.9%.

Shadow Ball does the exact same damage. If we can potentially 2hko two of our big threats (guaranteed with Modest) that's not ok.

The same goes for Ice Beam, however Dragonite gets destroyed alongside Lati@s.

 

[Yoshuriken]

Overheat is something we need.

252+ SpA Volcanion Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Aegislash-Shield: 288-338 (88.8 - 104.3%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Volcanion Overheat vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Aegislash-Shield: 338-398 (104.3 - 122.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

the power increase isn't huge, but it's enough that we can get a clean OHKO on Aegislash with a modest nature and lefties. More importantly, we don't have to worry about accuracy with Overheat. With Fire blast's accuracy factored in, it's only a 26.6% chance to OHKO. While sane Aegislash won't stay in anyway, I think the option is important.

Sludge Wave or Flash Cannon is a must. The fairies we are supposed to threaten that are neutral or resist our stabs (i.e. all but Mawile) won't feel very threatened without SE coverage.

252+ SpA Choice Specs Volcanion Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Togekiss: 199-235 (53.2 - 62.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Volcanion Scald vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Togekiss: 144-171 (38.5 - 45.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Volcanion Sludge Wave vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Togekiss: 230-272 (61.4 - 72.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Volcanion Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Togekiss: 192-228 (51.3 - 60.9%) -- 93.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ SpA Choice Specs Volcanion Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Sylveon: 183-216 (46.4 - 54.8%) -- 9.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Volcanion Scald vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Sylveon: 133-157 (33.7 - 39.8%) -- 27.1% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Volcanion Sludge Wave vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Sylveon: 210-248 (53.2 - 62.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Volcanion Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Sylveon: 178-210 (45.1 - 53.2%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Fire Blast has accuracy issues that make it rather risky to hit fairies. Also, because Flash Cannon almost always fails to 2HKO SpDef Sylveon, while Sludge Wave always does, which makes me think it should be allowed. Dragonblaze already showed how Sludge Wave won't break Rotom-W. It can possibly break Latias, but so can Flash Cannon, and we need at least one.

252+ SpA Choice Specs Analytic Volcanion Flash Cannon vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Latias: 153-181 (50.6 - 59.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Analytic Volcanion Sludge Wave vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Latias: 182-215 (60.2 - 71.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Life Orb Latias Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Volcanion: 229-270 (56.6 - 66.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
or, a combo of
252 SpA Life Orb Latias Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Volcanion: 181-214 (44.8 - 52.9%) -- 25.8% chance to 2HKO followed by
252 SpA Life Orb Latias Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Volcanion: 246-290 (60.8 - 71.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

So the least bulky Latias still beat the most bulky Cap 1v1. If CAP decides to run speed, it just gets better for Latias.
However, there is this:

252+ SpA Choice Specs Analytic Volcanion Sludge Wave vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Keldeo: 249-293 (77 - 90.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Analytic Volcanion Flash Cannon vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Keldeo: 104-123 (32.1 - 38%) -- 96.1% chance to 3HKO

That makes me think Sludge Wave could be a problem. What it comes down to is whether the ability to beat SpDef Sylveon outweighs the loss of losing to Keldeo.

Electric Attacks are anti-concept, as per the threat list.

252+ SpA Choice Specs Analytic Volcanion Volt Switch vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Keldeo: 364-430 (112.6 - 133.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Analytic Volcanion Volt Switch vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Keldeo: 244-288 (75.5 - 89.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

That's way too powerful against a supposed check or counter. U-turn would be a much better option, but wouldn't it be a non-attacking move with how low our attack is?

Ice Attacks are also anti-concept.

252+ SpA Choice Specs Analytic Volcanion Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Latias: 260-306 (71.4 - 84%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Volcanion Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Goodra: 156-184 (40.6 - 47.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ SpA Goodra Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Volcanion: 192-228 (47.5 - 56.4%) -- 85.9% chance to 2HKO

That's ridiculous. Fully SpDef Latias dies to Ice Beam. While Goodra actually wins most often, it is otherwise our biggest counter. Look at this:
252+ SpA Choice Specs Volcanion Sludge Wave vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Goodra: 82-97 (21.3 - 25.2%) -- 0.1% chance to 4HKO
That's much more desirable, and would be the most we could do without Ice Beam.
Also, while most water types have ice attacks, not all do, and the only fire types to get Ice Beam are Arceus and Castform, both 'mons that can change their type. I don't think lacking an ice type move would be a problem, especially when it would be so bad to the concept.

 

[Karoshi]

I think Poison coverage is fine. Since we're suppose to scare off fairy types, having a super-effective move that doesn't have STAB nor helps with anything else would be fine. Likewise, I think Fighting Coverage would be fine though just as niche. Tyranitar decimates Latias and is capable of threatening Lucario on switch in if it takes Earthquake as coverage. With Focus Blast it can take on him easier and even take advantage of the Analytic boost from someone expecting Water STAB. Lastly, while having Focus Blast doesn't all CAP18 beat Chansey or Blissey in a one on one due to it's low PP, accuracy and their ability to heal; it does allow it to not be completely helpless and can even severely wound it if it manages to secure a switch-in boost.

252+ SpA Choice Specs CAP18 Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Tyranitar in Sand: 348-410 (86.1 - 101.4%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs CAP18 Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Tyranitar in Sand: 504-596 (124.7 - 147.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ SpA Choice Specs CAP18 Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 588-696 (145.5 - 172.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs CAP18 Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 404-476 (100 - 117.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ SpA Choice Specs CAP18 Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Assault Vest Tyranitar in Sand: 316-372 (78.2 - 92%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs CAP18 Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Assault Vest Tyranitar in Sand: 216-254 (53.4 - 62.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ SpA Choice Specs CAP18 Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey: 340-402 (47.6 - 56.3%) -- 26.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs CAP18 Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey: 234-276 (32.7 - 38.6%) -- 4.5% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs CAP18 Overheat vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey: 276-325 (38.6 - 45.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ SpA Choice Specs CAP18 Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 282-334 (40 - 47.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs CAP18 Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 195-229 (27.6 - 32.5%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs CAP18 Overheat vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 229-271 (32.5 - 38.4%) -- 98.6% chance to 3HKO

On a short note; I agree that CAP18 Shouldn't get Ghost, Dark, Ice or Electric coverage. Grass Knot could cause problems, but overall not ground breaking and U-Turn being fairly pointless especially if it has access to a good support movepool.

 

[CerberusSONE]

Just throwing this out there:
CAP18's Hydro Pump is able to 3HKO a Latias with invested HP and SpDefense, which is an ideal and a rare case. If we are willing to get walled by Latias and Latios, much less threatened by them, we should invest in a lesser powered move. Scald fulfills this role sufficiently, also having the chance to OHKO M-Charizard-Y in the Sun (Fire Blast actually had a higher chance of doing that).
Grass Knot presents another problem, OHKOing Keldeo's common usage sets and 2HKOing a uncommon/situational set involving maximized defenses and HP.
Some of our Ground type targets may also pose a threat to CAP18. Landorus-T and Excadrill OHKO CAP18 with a single EQ. Hippowdon can only 2HKO after Sandstorm damage. I mention Tyranitar (even though Lucario can handle it) just to show that it poses another problem to CAP18. We may lose 26% of CAP18's HP if it tries to switch out from T-tar. Not too much, but unless it's switching into CAP18's attack, it can still pose a threat.
As per usual, Blissey and Chansey can pull off a Thunder Wave (Toxic to prevent Analytic from activating every time) and can just lol at us with Softboiled to keep from getting 3HKO'd.
Flash Cannon is a non STAB move that I am proposing to the community. FC 2HKO's Clefable and Togekiss even after Leftovers recovery. Flash Cannon would be wise to just counter most Fairy types that could pose a threat to Latias.
It also OHKO's Strategem even with Infiltrator as its ability. Stratagem is fairly seen, but Lucario is done if it faced it.
I do not encourage Poison as Fairy Coverage, let's stick with Steel as it has a wider range to hit and is barely resisted by much.

TS;DRA(too short; didn't read anyway):
Hydro Pump is too powerful, Excadrill is still faster than CAP18 and it OHKO's with Landorus-T using Earthquake. Tyranitar presents certain problems CAP18. Flash Cannon rids the field of Fairies (Fire Blast for Mawile) and Stratagem, who presents problems to Lucario. Please no Grass Knot, nor Poison moves for Fairy Coverage.
All calcs presented down below. Some, if not all, have been done previously.
Apologies for the mess :(
For our victims/targets:
-252+ SpA Analytic CAP18 Hydro Pump vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Charizard Y in Sun: 234-276 (78.5 - 92.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
-252+ SpA Choice Specs Analytic CAP18 Scald vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Charizard Y in Sun: 254-300 (85.2 - 100.6%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
-252+ SpA Choice Specs CAP18 Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Landorus-T: 728-858 (190.5 - 224.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
-252+ SpA Choice Specs CAP18 Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Aegislash-Shield: 426-504 (131.4 - 155.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
-252+ SpA Choice Specs CAP18 Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Hippowdon: 798-938 (190 - 223.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
-252+ SpA Choice Specs CAP18 Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Clefable: 228-270 (57.8 - 68.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
-252+ SpA Choice Specs CAP18 Scald vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Hippowdon: 578-684 (137.6 - 162.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
-252+ SpA Choice Specs CAP18 Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Togekiss: 199-235 (53.2 - 62.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
-252+ SpA Choice Specs CAP18 Scald vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Landorus-T: 530-626 (138.7 - 163.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
-252+ SpA Choice Specs Analytic CAP18 Scald vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Volcarona: 552-650 (176.9 - 208.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
-252+ SpA Choice Specs Analytic CAP18 Grass Knot (60 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Excadrill: 204-241 (56.3 - 66.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
-252+ SpA Choice Specs Analytic CAP18 Flash Cannon vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Strategem: 514-606 (159.6 - 188.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO



For our threats:
-252+ SpA Choice Specs CAP18 Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey: 234-276 (32.7 - 38.6%) -- 4.5% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery (same goes with Hydro Pump on Blissey)
-252+ SpA Choice Specs CAP18 Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Rotom-W: 105-123 (34.5 - 40.4%) -- 49% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
-252 SpA Rotom-W Volt Switch vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD CAP18: 198-234 (49 - 57.9%) -- 95.7% chance to 2HKO
-252+ Atk Landorus-T Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def CAP18: 470-554 (116.3 - 137.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
-4 Atk Hippowdon Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def CAP18: 288-338 (71.2 - 83.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after sandstorm damage
-252+ SpA Choice Specs Analytic CAP18 Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Latias: 130-153 (35.7 - 42%) -- 91.5% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Analytic CAP18 Scald vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Latias: 94-111 (25.8 - 30.4%) -- 3.7% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
-252 SpA Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD CAP18: 178-211 (44 - 52.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
-252+ SpA Choice Specs Analytic CAP18 Grass Knot (60 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Keldeo: 314-370 (97.2 - 114.5%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
-252 SpA Latias Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD CAP18: 174-206 (43 - 50.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
-252+ Atk Mold Breaker Excadrill Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def CAP18: 444-524 (109.9 - 129.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
-252+ SpA Choice Specs CAP18 Scald vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 294-348 (72.7 - 86.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
-252+ Atk Tyranitar Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 0 Def CAP18: 440-522 (108.9 - 129.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

For other Core members:
-252 SpA Stratagem Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Lucario: 302-356 (107.4 - 126.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

 

[Da Pizza Man]

I think Fighting Coverage shouldd be disallowed. Not only does it not help us take out any threats to the core (Well other than Excadrill but we have our dual stab if we need to take it on) but it also attacks some of the pokemon we are trying to get threatened by, namely Chansey and Blissey. Back in 4th Gen Porygon-Z was known to be able to OHKO blissey at +2 with Hyper Beam. If we give CAP18 Focus Blast then we will be able to do the exact same thing, but with even more power. Plus there is no point to it since Lucario is part of our core.