CAP 22 CAP 22 - Part 3 - Threats Discussion

[HeaLnDeaL]

You guys are missing the point. CAP22 will not use parting shot against Serperior unless Serperior switches into a parting shot. And if Serperior switches into a parting shot, then CAP22 just switches out and goes to a Serperior counter anyway.

If Serperior comes in on CAP22 after one of Serperior's teammates faints, then it's just a normal Serperior, and CA22 will not use parting shot against it. CAP22 will either hit it with a damaging move or do a hard switch (not with parting shot) to a counter.

I believe this is what Snake was trying to say.

 

[snake]

Way to confuse me even more. Let me simplify my questions into a statement: CAP 22 and Serperior are opponents to each other, and CAP 22 uses Parting Shot. If Serperior can attack after a teammate of CAP 22 is brought in through Parting Shot, then it is necessary that CAP 22 has an advantageous match-up against Serperior, for the above scenario would mean Serperior can attack a Pokemon at +3 the same turn it is hit with Parting Shot. To simplify this even more, our CAP should be able to keep Serperior from switching in, or even from abusing this situation if such is possible.

Ok now I'm at a computer, so I can explain more thoroughly.

If you actually read what I said:

I think the free boost would be more of an annoyance than anything. If you switch in Serperior as CAP22 uses Parting Shot, you're sitting at +1, yes, but then your opponent has the switch advantage. Serperior's damage output is still a little underwhelming at +1 anyways.

This was the situation I was talking about. Serperior successfully gets the +1, but then you can switch out of it into some other check to Serperior.

However, I'll talk about all the situations. Note that I am assuming that CAP22 is faster than Serperior.

Situation 1: Serperior hard switches into CAP22

This is the situation I referred to in my quotation above. When Serperior switches in it gets hit by either a) a STAB Fairy- or Fighting-type move, b) Parting Shot, or c) some other move. If we go off what we know (situations a) and b)), a) Serperior either takes a STAB move, which it won't appreciate (and if we're faster it has to survive two STAB hits) OR b) it gets hit by Parting Shot, reaches +1, but then has to face one of CAP22's teammates, which could very well OHKO Serperior.

Situation 2: CAP22 hard switches into Serperior

This situation has no impact on our situations. Even if we're faster than Serperior and we can tank a Leaf Storm, no good player is going to actively use Parting Shot on Serperior.

Situation 3: Serperior comes in after one of its teammates faints

Again, no good player is going to actively use Parting Shot against a Serperior, so either CAP22 hard switches out or hits Serperior with a STAB boosted move.

So the only situation (assuming that CAP22 is faster) where Parting Shot's effects become a problem vs. Serperior is Situation 1, which can be easily circumvented with another teammate switching in. In Situations 2 and 3, if CAP22 actively uses Parting Shot against Serperior, the player is just using CAP22 stupidly.

EDIT: HeaLnDeaL said exactly what I wanted to say with less words.

 

[cbrevan]

After reading through this thread multiple times and engaging in various discussions on Pokemon Showdown, I've decided on this list of what we want to and what we should be threatened by.

Some things I'd like everyone to keep in mind is that this isn't an end all be all list. If it is in the best interest of the project and concept we'll be able to work around certain parts of this lists as we need to. I've purposefully excluded mentioning some of our more interesting matchups, such as Crucibelle, to allow us more freedom during later stages. There are a lot of more or less neutral matchups that are dependent on variables that have not been decided yet, and as such I will leave it to us to figure out during the natural progression of this project.

Pokemon CAP should threaten
Dark-types: Colossoil, Bisharp, Mega Sableye, etc.
Dragon-types: Cyclohm, Garchomp, etc.
Fighting-types: Tomohawk, Keldeo, etc.
Rock-types: Tyranitar, Stratagem, etc.
These Pokemon are both weak to CAP's STAB moves and have a STAB move resisted by CAP as well. As such they are our natural switch-ins and should be what we threaten directly based off our STAB moves alone. Pokemon that have a secondary typing that can hit CAP 22 super effectively, such as Tomohawk, Latios, and Latias, should be at least reluctant to switch into us or threatened out if CAP 22 can get in safely.
Steel-types, primarily those weak to Fighting-type moves: Heatran, Ferrothorn, etc.
Steel-types are more of a neutral matchup for us as they can threaten us with their STAB moves as much as we can with ours, but we should be able to force out slower Steel-types and make them reluctant to switch into us.
Passive Pokemon: Chansey, Hippowdon, Skarmoy, etc.
Passive Pokemon that aren't directly threatened by our STAB combination may potentially challenge CAP 22 due to their reliance on chip damage over their offensive abilities, which makes them negligibly affected by Parting Shot. Some way to pressure these Pokemon would help CAP 22 in scenarios where these Pokemon don't switch into it directly.

Pokemon that should check/counter CAP:
Poison-types: Mollux, Plasmanta, Fidgit, Mega Venusaur, Amoonguss, etc.
Fire-types: Talonflame, Mega Charizard Y, Volkraken, Volcanion, etc.
Both of the types listed above have the ability to switch into one or more of the CAP's STAB combination and threaten it back with their STAB moves. Both types generally rely on their offensive abilities to deter switch ins and are therefore good targets for Parting Shot.
Priority users: Scizor, Mega Metagross, Azumarill, and Talonflame
These Pokemon are either resistant or are hit neutrally by the CAP's STAB combination and can threaten back with powerful priority before CAP can Parting Shot out. They should be able to force us out in a 1v1 scenario, but whether they should be able to switch in safely is something I'll leave for us to decide during later stages.

In general our goal should be to threaten a large number of Pokemon with our STAB moves in order to force the switches needed to make Parting Shot work, and we should try to confine our checks and counters to ensure that they are affected negatively by Parting Shot.