CAP 25 - Part 9 - CAP 25w Moveset Discussion

[Catalisador]

To people submitting Bulk Up / Calm Mind sets: Can we get a decent standard of proof that we're not going to stall out Heal Block Pajantom (BU), or stuff like Cyclohm? Or, at least, if you're supporting that, put in a decent argument as to why breaking C+C on those sort of mons in particular is balanced ^^;.

4 SpA Cyclohm Discharge vs. 248 HP / 88+ SpD Golisopod: 164-194 (42.5 - 50.3%) -- 93.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Poison Heal
4 SpA Cyclohm Discharge vs. +1 248 HP / 88+ SpD Golisopod: 110-132 (28.5 - 34.2%) -- 1.3% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Poison Heal

Minimum SpA Cyclohm never allows us to setup with Stealth Rock on the field. A competent player will stop CAP25w with ease.

252 Atk Pajantom Spirit Shackle vs. 248 HP / 152 Def Golisopod: 108-127 (28 - 32.9%) -- 100% chance to 4HKO after Stealth Rock and Poison Heal

+1 8 SpA Golisopod Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Pajantom: 75-89 (24.2 - 28.8%) -- 99.1% chance to 4HKO

Pajantom can trap, use Heal Block and 4HKO CAP25w, while CAP25w can barely 4HKO back at +1.

I'd also like add that any setup pokemon can potentially 1v1 even it's hard counter. For example, SubGlare Zygarde can 1v1 Clefable, Choice Scarf Kartana can break through Zapdos and Celesteela and such.

I'm also doing some pretty broad spreads here, covering a large range of moves, so if people want to use these to jump on a bandwagon against one specific move (I know I'm listing a couple of controversial options 'ere), then go right ahead.

I am, too, posting some spreads that might cause some discussion. The calcs I mentioned are the ones I think have the most impact for CAP25w's success on the meta. But if anyone has any doubts about any potential controversial stuff, I am glad to answer.

 

[Deck Knight]

I think we should be very careful with defensive boosting on 25w because it is very bulky on both sides. Additionally, it already has ready access to STAB debuffs in Lunge and Struggle Bug to dampen attacks on either side of the spectrum. I also would suggest caution with offensive boosting. I would support Hone Claws as it increases the usefulness of attacks like Megahorn, Razor Shell, and even strong inaccurate special attacks that can hit an opponent's lower defense.

25w already has a lot of things going for it conceptually, and a lot of moves that more directly work with Poison Heal. Defensive Stat-boosting moves don't tend to fall in that category save they reduce damage that Poison Heal will be healing off. While there might be a case for Iron Defense or Amnesia, moves like Bulk Up and Calm Mind which also enable slow, overwhelming offense can shatter C&C. Poison Heal's status immunity and large passive healing are already very strong characteristics. Adding bulky offensive sustain engine to those characteristics is a bit much.

 

[Mythlore]

4 SpA Cyclohm Discharge vs. 248 HP / 88+ SpD Golisopod: 164-194 (42.5 - 50.3%) -- 93.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Poison Heal
4 SpA Cyclohm Discharge vs. +1 248 HP / 88+ SpD Golisopod: 110-132 (28.5 - 34.2%) -- 1.3% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Poison Heal

Minimum SpA Cyclohm never allows us to setup with Stealth Rock on the field. A competent player will stop CAP25w with ease.

This scenario assumes that 25w is coming in on Cyclohm and beginning to setup. While it will theoretically lose this 1v1 (protect would allow it to potentially get into a range where it lives) should 25w come in upon a mon that cannot threaten knocking it out immediately and set up a CM on the switch to Cyclohm, it would win the 1v1.

252 Atk Pajantom Spirit Shackle vs. 248 HP / 152 Def Golisopod: 108-127 (28 - 32.9%) -- 100% chance to 4HKO after Stealth Rock and Poison Heal

+1 8 SpA Golisopod Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Pajantom: 75-89 (24.2 - 28.8%) -- 99.1% chance to 4HKO

Pajantom can trap, use Heal Block and 4HKO CAP25w, while CAP25w can barely 4HKO back at +1.

The point here was in regards to BU, not CM. Instead of explaining it, here
is a log of Bulk Up CAP 25w 1v1ing Heal Block Pajantom.

 

[Warren685]

I wanna offer a bit of offensive variation to the mix
Moveset Submission:
Name: Coiled Up
Move 1: Hone Claws Coil
Move 2: Spiky Shield
Move 3: Mega Horn
Move 4: Razor Shell
Ability: Poison Heal
Item: Toxic Orb
EVs: 252 HP / 44 Atk / 208 Def / 4 SpD
Nature: Sassy

• Hone Claws will enable 25w to hit Razor Shell, and Mega Horn with perfect accuracy with a +1 boost to attack.
• Spiky Shield allows CAP 25w to safely trigger Poison Heal and deal with any physical attacks coming it's way dealing damage to the attacker, such as users running Knock Off or any Pivot users such as U-Turn or Volt Switch.
• Razor Shell can be swapped off for Hydro Pump or Blizzard for more power and coverage.
• Mega Horn is our Strongest Stab on the set

This set was created by taking advantage of 25w's bulk and Poison Heal recovery to let it Hone Claw + High power moves to break through bulky attackers while shrugging off their attacks.
Now Cbrevan said if we included any boosting type moves we have to include some calcs to show how it messes with our C&C. At +1 we still maintain most of our check, some would have a hard time switching into a +1 Mega Horn or Razor Shell.
Evs in HP and Def to still maintain a sort of stop gap against physical attackers, a bit of attack to give a slight oomph to fully OHKO bulky targets like Colossoil at +1.

calcs

+1 44 Atk Golisopod Megahorn vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Necturna: 192-226 (71.3 - 84%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (Shell Smash Nect)
44 Atk Golisopod Razor Shell vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Landorus-Therian: 176-210 (55.1 - 65.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (Fly Z)
(After Lando-T switches in and intimidate us)
+1 44 Atk Golisopod Razor Shell vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tomohawk: 93-111 (22.4 - 26.8%) -- 27.4% chance to 4HKO (Defensive Support)
+1 44 Atk Golisopod Megahorn vs. 252 HP / 160 Def Jumbao: 169-199 (43.5 - 51.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery (Wish Support)
+1 44 Atk Golisopod Razor Shell vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tapu Koko: 138-163 (49.1 - 58%) -- 96.1% chance to 2HKO (Offensive Pivot)
+1 44 Atk Golisopod Razor Shell vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tornadus-Therian: 145-172 (48.4 - 57.5%) -- 94.5% chance to 2HKO (Fly Z)
+1 44 Atk Golisopod Megahorn vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Pajantom: 127-150 (34.1 - 40.3%) -- 44.2% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery (Specially Defensive)
+1 44 Atk Golisopod Megahorn vs. 252 HP / 124 Def Unaware Arghonaut: 59-70 (14.2 - 16.9%) -- possible 9HKO after Leftovers recovery (Support)
+1 44 Atk Golisopod Megahorn vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Krilowatt: 249-294 (56.2 - 66.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (All Out Attacker)
+1 44 Atk Golisopod Megahorn vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cyclohm: 124-147 (29.5 - 35%) -- 100% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery (Physically Defensive)
+1 44 Atk Golisopod Megahorn vs. 252 HP / 48 Def Ferrothorn: 147-174 (41.7 - 49.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery (Hazard Setters)
+1 44 Atk Golisopod Megahorn vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Toxapex: 66-78 (21.7 - 25.7%) -- possible 5HKO after Black Sludge recovery (The Pex)
+1 44 Atk Golisopod Razor Shell vs. 248 HP / 240+ Def Zapdos: 97-115 (25.3 - 30%) -- 0.3% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery (Defensive)
+1 44 Atk Golisopod Megahorn vs. 248 HP / 32+ Def Pelipper: 84-100 (26 - 30.9%) -- guaranteed 4HKO (Defensive)
+1 44 Atk Golisopod Megahorn vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Gastrodon: 261-307 (61.4 - 72.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (Specially Defensive)
+1 44 Atk Golisopod Megahorn vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 116-137 (33.9 - 40%) -- guaranteed 3HKO (OU Belly Drum)
+1 44 Atk Golisopod Megahorn vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gyarados: 117-138 (35.3 - 41.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO (OU Dragon Dancer)
+1 44 Atk Golisopod Megahorn vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Naviathan: 105-124 (30.2 - 35.7%) -- 38.9% chance to 3HKO (Dragon Dancer)
+1 44 Atk Golisopod Megahorn vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Tapu Fini: 84-100 (24.4 - 29.1%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery (Defensive)
+1 44 Atk Golisopod Megahorn vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mollux: 56-66 (14.2 - 16.7%) -- possible 9HKO after Black Sludge recovery (Specially Bulky)
+1 44 Atk Golisopod Megahorn vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Plasmanta: 83-98 (31.6 - 37.4%) -- 86.5% chance to 3HKO (Life Orb)

 

[Dece1t]

This is mainly a comment about the current sets, I haven't decided whether I want to post my own yet or not.

Personally, the bulky tank/attacker sets come off as very underwhelming imo. You're not gonna get a ton out of base 94 Attack, or especially base 80 SpA on CM sets, and I do not think it's worth capitalizing, since the niche is appearing rather limited. The sets that have looked the most convincing to me that give 25w a standout niche and some chance at CAP/OU viability is the trapper sets. The great thing that 25w can capitalize on over Pajantom (or even Sap Sipper Azumarill) is it's access to Poison Heal recovery, meaning it's not only significantly harder to wear down, but also can't be slowed down or potentially stopped by opposing status. It also doesn't need to rely on a z-move slot in order to stallbreak defensive threats. Not to mention, I think this is a given, but it has the ability to get much more longevity in a match than Pajantom thanks to said recovery, meaning it can rinse and repeat multiple times if played with correctly if you can control it's susceptibility to hazards (something that both the Rat with Wings SpD and Z-Trapper sets lack). In terms of how to Stallbreak, I've thus far liked the idea of Perish Song + U-Turn the best, with Toxic + Lunge/Liquidation at second. In terms of how to trap, Infestation is the most appealing method because of it's accuracy and damage component (especially when paired with Perish Song, you only need a few turns to use it to full potential as opposed to a permanent trap). Although, if we don't go the Perish Song option, Spider Web is also very plausible so it gives us as much time as we need to wear down a specific target (only downside being it can be Magic Bounced by Mega Sableye). Whirlpool can easily be included with any of these no matter what, but I think this is the most underwhelming trapping option due to it's bad accuracy and the fact that it's not permanent.

In terms of the other move options presented so far, I've really liked the idea of having access to Spiky Shield, Leech Seed/Ingrain (I probably would not have both, one or the other), Dive, Scald, and Haze/Topsy-Turvy (leaning towards just Haze). On another note, I'm against Psycho Shift (you might as well run Toxic and not open yourself up to being re-statused on a bad prediction, despite the evasion of Magic Bounce), Baneful Bunker (weaker than Toxic), Wish (this one my mind could change, but idk if it's worth competing against Clefable or Jumbao as a cleric, despite the access to a slow U-Turn), Trick Room (seems a little bit of a far reach for what we want to support), and King's Shield (I don't think this needs an explanation). Otherwise, I'm lukewarm on Swords Dance (since it can quicken stallbreaking with Lunge/Liquidation), Healing Wish (even though I think with that it may struggle with 4MSS), Taunt (especially for trapping, I don't think it's too necessary unless we want to prevent hazard setting or boosting, the latter of which can be solved with Haze/Topsy-Turvy), and Coil (similar to SD, but can also rise Defense).

 

[Pipotchi]

First and foremost, I tihnk the most crucial element of defensive pokemon's usage is having some relevant pressure or key utility past toxic/scald. The number of defensive pokemon that get away with being absolutely passive are near non-existent. I think that once a defensive Pokemon gets access to this, they can be compared to others and will be able to be mix-n-matched with other defensive Pokemon for synergistic role compression. Lets say we give it stealth rock, if we start off with Ferrothorn we might choose to add this mon to have Spikes + SR stacking. If we start off with Fidgit we might add this pokemon to have two synergistic Trick Room setters if it got Trick Room. It doesnt need to be a mon that you can pretty much start your team with like Arghonaut (and we dont need to shoot for that either) but we can make a mon that actually has utilities that stand out to be paired with other defensive pokemon. Then it just wont have heavy competition with Argho, unless that utility chosen is Spikes.
I know this is common sense to some but I just wanted to say that we dont need to make a broken mon because it doesnt offer what Arghonaut offers. It just needs to offer some utility/misc that'll give it something to press without losing heavy momentum, because thats what all mons need.

Some examples of this would be: Stealth Rock, Defog, U-turn, Trick Room, Perish Song, Bulk Up. I think all of these have synergy with our ability and arent immediately broken like Leech Seed, Wish, or Calm Mind. Id love to see Stealth Rock and Trick Room personally because I think they have quick impact and 25W wants to make the most of the turns it finds to switch in since it wont wall things indefinitely. SR also has a fair amount of counterplay from common defoggers and as a trick room setter it has nice typing synergy with Fidgit.

That being said heres a set that works around Disable, which pairs nicely with our recovery and protective moves. I think Disable helps bulk up be an actually threatening set and ill explain more at the end

Moveset Submission:

cap25w @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Poison Heal
EVs: 252 HP / 20 Def / 236 SpD
Impish Nature
- Bulk Up
- Substitute
- Disable / Protect
- Razor Shell / Lunge

• Bulk Up is a setup move that pairs well with poison heal's passive recovery and the other stalling options available. After 1 Bulk Up, this mon doesnt worry about getting 2hko'd by the likes of Hawlucha's acrobatics, or Mega Mawile's Thunder Punch. (eg. its bulky) It also becomes more offensively relevant, with +1 Razor Shell actually being able to 2hko Tapu Koko and break through Zygarde's subs. Obviously it will be aiming to bulk up multiple times.
• Substitute works with poison heal naturally- scouting for moves and being a great move to press when the opponent switches out into a counter. This works well with bulk up which makes subs increasingly difficult to break. This mon can sub on Clefable's Moonblast without it breaking, as well as anything from Celesteela. At +1 Def, its sub wont be broken by things like Pajantom's Spirit Shackle or Ferrothorn's Power Whip. And Substitute's biggest purpose is synergy with Disable/Protect, which is next.
• Disable is a very powerful move here and deserves some discussion. Just by nature it goes against usual cap principle (similar to the likes of destiny bond, leech seed, knock off) since its main purpose is to play against its counters and checks. Disable has a dual purpose- it either turns things into setup fodder like choice-locked pokemon and mons that can only hit 25w with one attack like Tapu Koko, Chansey or Tornadus-T, or it disables recovery moves from things that theoretically wall it. When using substitute, you can disable an incoming attack to get around the attacker, but this isnt always reliable if the opponent expects a Disable set.
• The alternative for the set is Protect, which has an emphasis on PP Stalling out moves like Magma Storm or Hurricane, or anything choice-locked. Protect also allows the mon to grab some extra healing more reliably throughout the match and activate its orb safely as early as turn 1.
• Razor Shell helps pull the set together by being an alright BP STAB attack, but the most helpful element is the 50% def drop that grants this a little bonus offensive pressure and a way to get around Unaware users like Argho and Clefable.
• Lunge is a bug equivalent that doesnt leave this walled by Water Absorb or Storm Drain, and also helps dampen switchins, but its a pretty weak mono-attack unless you can guarantee several Bulk Ups because coverage. The attack drop can be useful in situations.

https://a.pomf.cat/cvyhzt.html

I think this is a really good replay to show its potential: 25W found multiple substitute opportunities on the opposing 25W and started to bulk up. It managed to get through Jumbao thanks to a leaf storm miss (which shows its weakness to special attackers that have multiple attacks that hit it hard), and after that it happily beat Tapu Koko by disabling Thunderbolt (which was the only move to break substitute) and was able to find the turns to bulk up in order to tank Thunder Punch Mega Mawile, Zygarde and Steelium Heatran hits and win the game. I wanted to bring this up because i think it teeters on the edge of whats healthy for the mon and its a good time to also discuss bulk up can remove stuff from our check list like Pajantom. But then Pajantom is also flexible enough with its moveset to hit us with Spirit Shackle followed by Gastro Acid.

calcs

252+ Atk Choice Band Zygarde Thousand Arrows vs. 252 HP / 20+ Def Araquanid: 83-98 (21.5 - 25.3%)

0 Atk Ferrothorn Power Whip vs. +1 252 HP / 20+ Def Araquanid: 67-81 (17.3 - 20.9%) -- possible 5HKO

252 SpA Jumbao Solar Beam vs. 252 HP / 236 SpD Araquanid: 156-184 (40.4 - 47.6%)

0 SpA Clefable Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 236 SpD Araquanid: 81-96 (20.9 - 24.8%)

0 SpA Celesteela Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 236 SpD Araquanid: 56-67 (14.5 - 17.3%)

0 SpA Tornadus-Therian Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 236 SpD Araquanid: 210-248 (54.4 - 64.2%)

0 Atk Arghonaut Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 20+ Def Araquanid: 62-74 (16 - 19.1%)

252 Atk Pajantom Spirit Shackle vs. +1 252 HP / 20+ Def Araquanid: 75-88 (19.4 - 22.7%)

I guess Ill end the post by mentioning some things that I think are super broken and shouldnt be considered:

-Recover/Moonlight/Wish: This mon is getting so much done on the test server right now without 50% recovery. It has absurd mixed defenses and can heal 75% over 1 turn + protect. That means it can stall out any super effective hit under that, which is just a bit too crazy for my liking. If we dont give it this ridiculous healing, we have the opportunity to add more concept-fitting moves, and things like hazards and bulk up.

-Calm Mind: This is inappropriate because after just a single CM you can laugh at a fair few special attacks from counters. Krilowatt for instance does under 50% vs CM plus special defensive investment, and that means it can be beaten. I also believe the special attacking sets to be much more bothersome as they patch up its "weaker" special defense stat while allowing it to run a physically defensive spread that lets it do its other duties with ease throughout the match.

-Leech Seed: We discussed it to hell in discord, and the level of pressure it applies is way too much. Leech Seed is a very good move but healing 25% a turn sounds a bit too far, I dont rly want to explain it too far but just generic points like "we hit the only immune typing super effectively" and "this mon finds a lot of switchins and will wear down all its counters with its absurd healing" is all i have for now

 

[G-Luke]

4 SpA Cyclohm Discharge vs. 248 HP / 88+ SpD Golisopod: 164-194 (42.5 - 50.3%) -- 93.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Poison Heal
4 SpA Cyclohm Discharge vs. +1 248 HP / 88+ SpD Golisopod: 110-132 (28.5 - 34.2%) -- 1.3% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Poison Heal

Minimum SpA Cyclohm never allows us to setup with Stealth Rock on the field. A competent player will stop CAP25w with ease.

252 Atk Pajantom Spirit Shackle vs. 248 HP / 152 Def Golisopod: 108-127 (28 - 32.9%) -- 100% chance to 4HKO after Stealth Rock and Poison Heal

+1 8 SpA Golisopod Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Pajantom: 75-89 (24.2 - 28.8%) -- 99.1% chance to 4HKO

Pajantom can trap, use Heal Block and 4HKO CAP25w, while CAP25w can barely 4HKO back at +1.

Replays have shown that this CAP can already outstall standard Heal Block Pajantom.

Also I think the fact that you are purposefully ignoring Ice Beam, an attack that is almost standard for Water types and one that ought to be required in order to pressure Zygarde and Necturna, just to prove that your set isn't as broken as it blatantly is, is reeeeeaaaaaallllllllly sketchy man.

 

[xurkitrium-z]

Moveset Submission

Name: Spikes Pivot
Move 1: Spikes / Toxic Spikes
Move 2: Parting Shot / U-turn
Move 3: Psycho Shift
Move 4: Leech Life / Scald
Ability: Poison Heal
Item: Toxic Orb
EVs: 252 HP / 28 Def / 228 SpD
Nature: Careful / Calm

• 25w's typing and bulk lets it come in easily on other defensive pokemon and set up multiple layers of hazards to pressure the opponent's switch-ins and help its teammates.
• Parting Shot and U-turn both pivot 25w out to a partner, letting it use its bulk to be a slow pivot and absorb a hit for a frailer partner to take. Parting Shot serves this goal a bit better, reducing the opposing pokemon's attacking stat by one stage and thus lessening the chance of the pokemon switching in taking a big hit. However, U-Turn lets 25w get some chip damage in on the opposing pokemon as it switches out.
• Psycho Shift lets you toxic the opposing pokemon once Toxic Orb has been activated, at the cost of a turn of healing. The advantage over Toxic is that it bypasses Magic Bounce, allowing 25w to toxic Mega Sableye, and that it has perfect accuracy and allows 25w to switch more freely into Scald and status moves, since it can shift off the status.
• Leech Life lets 25w threaten Mega Gyarados and Ash-Greninja and provides a little bit of recovery. Scald and a calm nature, conversely threatens Landorus-Therian and pressures physical attackers with a 30% burn chance.

calcs

252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja-Ash Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 228+ SpD Golisopod: 166-196 (43 - 50.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Poison Heal

0 Atk Golisopod Leech Life vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Greninja-Ash: 228-270 (80 - 94.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Mold Breaker Gyarados-Mega Crunch vs. 252 HP / 28 Def Golisopod: 135-159 (34.9 - 41.1%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Poison Heal

0 Atk Golisopod Leech Life vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gyarados-Mega: 152-182 (45.9 - 54.9%) -- 62.1% chance to 2HKO

252 Atk Landorus-Therian Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 28 Def Golisopod: 80-94 (20.7 - 24.3%) -- possible 8HKO after Poison Heal

252+ Atk Colossoil Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 28 Def Golisopod: 150-177 (38.8 - 45.8%) -- 67.7% chance to 3HKO after Poison Heal

0 Atk Golisopod Leech Life vs. 0 HP / 36 Def Colossoil: 204-242 (50.1 - 59.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

This set was created to take advantage of the fact that 25w's bulk, typing, recovery, and immunity to status let it switch into a large number of primarily defensive pokemon and act as a slow pivot out. However, 25w's less-than-stellar attacking stats mean that while it can come in easily, it isn't pressuring much damage and is best suited to look for something else to do: which brings me to Spikes. Poison Heal gives 25w way more longevity on the field, which means it's way easier for it to stay in and set up multiple layers of Spikes. The inclusion of a pivoting move capitalizes on 25w's speed tier and bulk to make it into a slow pivot. This set plays a fairly straightforward supporting role: switch in, inflict status/set up hazards, pivot out.

 

[Dece1t]

So, after some testing, I got a few very noteworthy replays regarding 25w. I was testing some stallbreaking sets. Here were the results:

A Couple Replay Logs

https://hastebin.com/ekerobaroz.sql
https://hastebin.com/sexisakico.coffeescript

A couple things really caught my attention in these battles. Firstly though, here's the set that I used that had the most success (and I alluded to this earlier, this is not a formal submission btw because I think it's EVs can be further tweaked):

cap25w @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Poison Heal
EVs: 252 HP / 16 Def / 240 SpD
Careful Nature
- Perish Song
- U-turn / Scald
- Spiky Shield
- Infestation

So a couple things. This mon avoids 2KOs from Tomohawk, Mega Alakazam, and Heatran, all of which are major metagame threats, and it can stall them at full health for just enough turns to switch out by the last turn before Perish Song kills. In some cases, such as against more passive threats like Ferrothorn, Clefable, and Celesteela, and non U-Turn Gliscor, it has enough health usually to be used again. I exploited this as a means to pave the way for sweepers that appreciate getting rid of those threats, such as Mega Crucibelle and Shell Smash Necturna. The only major downside I noticed with this set was the fact that it's rather passive, so when this mon is needed in a pinch to wall off certain threats that a normal SpD wall can take, it underperforms.

The issues I've ran into while testing the various sets is it's 4MMS that I was afraid of when commenting on Wish. It has a lot of options it wants to run, such as both Lunge and Liquidation on SD trapper sets (so it doesn't get walled by Heatran, other Steel types, and Clefable with Lunge, and vice versa by Gastrodon and Jumbao with Liquidation) at the cost of either SD (not a good option obviously) or a Protect move for a quick recovery. Same goes for sets that run both Leech Seed/Ingrain and Toxic, you often lose out on either an attacking move like Scald or a Protect move again.

So needless to say, it's bulk is very versatile and better than I expected on paper, but it's got a pretty decent case of 4MSS that can hinder us at this stage of set-building.

 

[hawk1113]

Moveset Submission:

Movesest Name: Bulky Swords Dance
Move 1: Swords Dance
Move 2: Facade
Move 3: Leech Life / Liquidation
Move 4: Spiky Shield/Liquidation
Ability: Poison Heal
Item: Toxic Orb
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 SpD
Nature: Brave

Defensive doesn't have to mean passive, as this Swords Dance set shows. Beating Zygarde and Gliscor at their own "protect and self-heal and boost" game, we can crush a lot of the meta at +2 while healing off damage.

SET DESCRIPTION

• Swords Dance allows us to double our attack, hitting very hard.
• Facade is our spammable move of choice. Facade hits ridiculously hard due to being 140 BP after we're Poisoned - at +2 attack we're even hitting normal-resistant 'mons such as M-Scizor and Heatran for greater than 50% per hit and we're absolutely demolishing non-Rock/Steel/Ghost types.
• Leech Life is our preferred secondary move, a STAB that trades the power of Facade for some healing. It also can actually hit for SE damage, which is extremely relevant against the likes of Greninja, M-Gyarados, M-Latios, M-Latias, and Colossoil.
• Spiky Shield is the recommended 4th move, since it guarantees our Toxic Orb activates regardless of any Knock Off, Thunder Wave, or Scald users and allows for some additional recovery and chip damage.
• Liquidation is an additional option over Leech Life or Spiky Shield. Honestly and surprisingly, however, there are very few matches where it is relevant. Revenankh and Kitsunoh outright wall us without Liquidation and Gengar can overwhelm us, but for many other 'mons we're actually dealing similar damage - for instance, we can clean OHKO Heatran with Liquidation at +2 without rocks whereas we're only 38% to OHKO with Facade at +2 with rocks. Howeve, as Heatran is unable to OHKO us it's barely relevant since Facade will be a for sure 2HKO even without Rocks. Meanwhile due to typing interactions, Leech Life is about even with Liquidation against other Ghosts like Pajantom and Necturna while also providing recovery.

CHECKS AND COUNTERS:

• Once 25w gets to +2, it is fairly hard to counter or switch in to since even highly resistant 'mons take a walloping from Facade and have to contend with Spiky Shield chip damage and Poison Heal/Leech Life recovery. 'Mons that seem like good ideas on paper, such as Naviathan, Zapdos, Pajantom, Hawlucha, Tapu Bulu, Necturna, Ferrothorn, and Krilowatt, will end up being overwhelmed by the raw power of Facade or the self-healing of Poison Heal + Leech Life.
• However, due to 25w's abysmal speed and lack of priority, it is easily checked or revenge killed by pretty much any faster aggressive Electric, Flying, or Rock type including but not limited to Tapu Koko, Stratagem, Cyclohm, Plasmanta, M-Crucibelle, Tornadus-T, 25g, Flynium Gyarados, Flynium/Rocknium Landorus-T, and Magnezone regardless of how many boosts its picked up.
• Tomohawk is also a good check or counter to 25w, capable of either grinding it out with Prankster Roost + Haze or killing it with offensive Fly-spam.
• As mentioned, 25w's that give up their Water-type coverage will find themselves wrecked by several ghosts such as Revenankh, Kitsunoh, and Gengar.

So again this was more to test just how sick Swords Dance is on 25w, and it seems pretty sick. I'd also say any Bulk Up/Work Up set needs to be using Facade. Will post calcs later.

 

[Catalisador]

Replays have shown that this CAP can already outstall standard Heal Block Pajantom.

Also I think the fact that you are purposefully ignoring Ice Beam, an attack that is almost standard for Water types and one that ought to be required in order to pressure Zygarde and Necturna, just to prove that your set isn't as broken as it blatantly is, is reeeeeaaaaaallllllllly sketchy man.

As I've said before, any setupper has the potential to 1v1 it's counters.

Secondly, most of the pokemon on CAP25w's checks and counters list are, frankly, soft-checks and soft-counters. CAP25w's bulk allows it to potentially 1v1 Cyclohm and Pajantom if it does run Ice Beam, for example, even without any boosts, depending on the spread/set:

4 SpA Cyclohm Thunderbolt vs. 248 HP / 240+ SpD Golisopod: 158-188 (41 - 48.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
0 SpA Golisopod Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Cyclohm: 146-172 (34.7 - 40.9%) -- 58.7% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Pajantom Spirit Shackle vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Golisopod: 100-118 (25.9 - 30.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Pajantom Never-Ending Nightmare (160 BP) vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Golisopod: 199-235 (51.6 - 61%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
0 SpA Golisopod Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Pajantom: 100-118 (32.3 - 38.1%) -- 94.8% chance to 3HKO

Even defensive Tomohawk can be potentially 1v1 by CAP25w, if we end up using the Perish Song trapping set that, until now, is the one that people are showing to like the most:

0 SpA Tomohawk Air Slash vs. 248 HP / 240+ SpD Golisopod: 134-162 (34.8 - 42%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

We can't follow 100% of the threatlist for CAP25w. It's enormous bulk and (more than likely) access to Protect can make it potentially 1v1 half of it's checks and counters, for example. Same applies for a boosting set or a trapping set.
If we end up trying to follow 100% of the threatlist, CAP25w will end up being another boring bulky Water-type that does exactly what the other 7 to 8 bulky Water-types in the meta do.

I still believe a secondary win-condition set gives CAP25w a unique niche that wouldn't be overwhelming for the meta, as it still has it's checks and counters, specially with the addition of CAP25g - arguably one of the best checks for CAP25w.

 

[Reviloja753]

So since starters are difficult to make submissions for all over, especially when the main set ideas have been taken and any other set risks being redundant, I’m going to instead critique a couple of sets. Expect posts similar to this one in the other two starter threads relatively soon.

Name: Isolation Trapper
Move 1: Liquidation
Move 2: Spiky Shield
Move 3: Psycho Shift / Toxic
Move 4: Infestation / Spider Web
Ability: Poison Heal
Item: Toxic Orb
EVs: 252 HP / 12 Def / 240 SpD / 4 Spe
Nature: Careful

I personally adore this set. It is the exact set that will set 25w apart. My only issue is that Spider Web is missing. While Infestation could be preferred for the chip and not being tauntable, Spider Web trades those two things for permanent trapping. The only questions I have are why you have 12 EVs in Defense and 4 EVs in Speed instead of maxing SpD and having 4 Attack EVs. Other than that though, this is an A-grade set imo.

Name: Speed Control Pivot
Move 1: Sticky Web / Trick Room
Move 2: U-Turn / Parting Shot
Move 3: Protect
Move 4: Scald / Rapid Spin
Ability: Poison Heal
Item: Toxic Orb
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
IVs: 0 Spe (Trick Room)
Nature: Careful / Calm / Sassy (Trick Room)

Personally, I do not see the appeal of Trick Room. There are plenty of setters out there, most notably Magearna, who can also pivot out. While I did not strike it out, I also am somewhat unsure about Parting Shot. It probably isn’t broken, but part of me feels weird about giving a CAP a move that was built around in CAP not too long ago. I could go either way on Parting Shot though.

 

[david0895]

Moveset Submission

Name: Spikes Pivot
Move 1: Spikes / Toxic Spikes
Move 2: Parting Shot / U-turn
Move 3: Psycho Shift
Move 4: Leech Life / Scald
Ability: Poison Heal
Item: Toxic Orb
EVs: 252 HP / 28 Def / 228 SpD
Nature: Careful / Calm

I don't like the idea of slow pivoting with Parting Shot, because debuffing the opposing pokemon AND guarantee the momentum due to the 25w low Speed give us too much advantagee, especially with setup sweeper that will have a free turn to setup.

About Toxic Spikes, while in a first moment can seem a good idea because it can force in Fidgit and Mega Crucibelle and Mega Scizor, this will force even more the swtich-in that can easily remove them like Zapdos or Mollux, making your turn wasted.

 

[G-Luke]

Yes I can agree that Parting Shot is kinda a turn off for me, and Tspikes looks near worthless in this poison filled meta.

 

[zerobreaker000]

Not a full moveset, but something I'd like to bring up that I haven't seen any discussions about:

Counter/Mirror Coat seem like moves that synergize well with Poison Heal's passive recovery. Take a hit (not too hard given 25w's bulk), reflect the damage back, let the passive recovery heal 25w back to usable levels. Now, yes, Mirror Coat probably messes with the C+C list way too much, but Counter I feel might be workable to more effectively take out physical threats in the pressure and switch-in list with only DD Naviathan and Azumarill that are really affected by the move out of the C+C list.

first time posting outside of polls and flavor stages so forgive me for anything wonky or downright stupid

 

[Origin0]

Moveset Submission

Name: Bulky Wish Pivot
Move 1: Scald
Move 2: Lunge / Leech Life
Move 3: Wish
Move 4: U-turn / Protect
Ability: Poison Heal
Item: Toxic Orb
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Nature: Sassy

• Scald can fish for burns
• Lunge lowers the opponent’s Attack, which helps 25w survive against physical attackers, alternatively Leech Life provides some recovery for even more sustain
• Wish allows 25w to heal itself or a teammate, and it goes well with its solid HP stat
• U-turn lets it pivot out while doing chip damage, or Protect can be used to tank Z-moves, scout for moves, or give Poison Heal an extra turn of recovery

Keep rocks away so it doesn’t lose a whole fourth of its health on switching in. Its offensive stats, especially Attack, are decent for a bulkier Pokemon, so running offensive moves actually works to prevent it from being too passive.

 

[Deck Knight]

Moveset Submission

Name: Toxic Spikes Pivot
Move 1: Toxic Spikes
Move 2: Parting Shot / U-turn / Baneful Bunker
Move 3: Purify
Move 4: Hidden Power Ground / Leech Life
Ability: Poison Heal
Item: Toxic Orb
EVs: 252 HP / 28 Def / 228 SpD
Nature: Calm / Careful

• 25w's typing and bulk lets it come in easily on other defensive pokemon and set up multiple layers of hazards to pressure the opponent's switch-ins and help its teammates. Toxic Spikes in particular has a bad reputation for only being able to get up one layer, but 25w has the longevity to pull it off with the right support on its moveset.
• Parting Shot and U-turn both pivot 25w out to a partner, letting it use its bulk to be a slow pivot and absorb a hit for a frailer partner to take. Parting Shot serves this goal a bit better, reducing the opposing pokemon's attacking stat by one stage and thus lessening the chance of the pokemon switching in taking a big hit. However, U-Turn lets 25w get some chip damage in on the opposing pokemon as it switches out. Finally, Baneful Bunker, while it isn't a pivot move does block Rapid Spin for a turn, ensures you get your Toxic Orb going, and anything you would prefer to Toxic poison later you can Purify.
• Purify is a neat attack, it lets you remove Poison from a target in order to restore 50% of your own HP.
• Hidden Power Ground punishes the many Poison types in CAP that switch in to soak up Toxic Spikes, allowing you to set the hazard and use Toxic Spikes + Purify more freely, whereas Leech Life provides some offensive pressure and additional healing.

calcs

252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja-Ash Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 228+ SpD Golisopod: 166-196 (43 - 50.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Poison Heal

0 Atk Golisopod Leech Life vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Greninja-Ash: 228-270 (80 - 94.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Mold Breaker Gyarados-Mega Crunch vs. 252 HP / 28 Def Golisopod: 135-159 (34.9 - 41.1%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Poison Heal

0 Atk Golisopod Leech Life vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gyarados-Mega: 152-182 (45.9 - 54.9%) -- 62.1% chance to 2HKO

252 Atk Landorus-Therian Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 28 Def Golisopod: 80-94 (20.7 - 24.3%) -- possible 8HKO after Poison Heal

252+ Atk Colossoil Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 28 Def Golisopod: 150-177 (38.8 - 45.8%) -- 67.7% chance to 3HKO after Poison Heal

0 Atk Golisopod Leech Life vs. 0 HP / 36 Def Colossoil: 204-242 (50.1 - 59.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

This set was created to take advantage of the fact that 25w's bulk, typing, recovery, and immunity to status let it switch into a large number of primarily defensive pokemon and act as a slow pivot out. However, 25w's less-than-stellar attacking stats mean that while it can come in easily, it isn't pressuring much damage and is best suited to look for something else to do: which brings me to Spikes. Poison Heal gives 25w way more longevity on the field, which means it's way easier for it to stay in and set up multiple layers of Spikes. The inclusion of a pivoting move capitalizes on 25w's speed tier and bulk to make it into a slow pivot. This set plays a fairly straightforward supporting role: switch in, inflict status/set up hazards, pivot out.

So I modified this from a general hazard set to one specifically for Toxic Spikes and included HP Ground to punish the many Pokemon that absorb it. Since our C+C list includes Tapu Koko, Mollux, and Plasmanta this was the only legal move that could fill that need that I'd be comfortable with 25w getting. Also included is an option for Baneful Bunker to punish Rapid Spin and allow 25w a move to poison Pokemon that have already switched in.

As to Purify, its Z-move is an omni-booster but I feel a set like this is infinitely preferable to one stat boost suite, once per game, and uses Purify with CAPs ability to Psycho Shift or Toxic on other sets incredibly well.

 

[LucarioOfLegends]

Ohey, its time for Moveset Submission.

Name: Bug with Bite (Bulky Attacker)
Move 1: Liquidation
Move 2: Knock Off
Move 3: Facade / Toxic / Poison Jab
Move 4: Recover
Ability: Poison Heal
Item: Toxic Orb
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Def
Adamant Nature

Thought I'd try a more offensive set considerin its decent stats to support it, its still mostly defensive and relies on more utility stuff, but can fight back consistently. Not sure on the EVs, but I know the moves.

• Liquidation is a solid Water STAB, allowing CAPw to beat Ground-, Fire-, and Rock-types like Crucibelle, Lando-T, Colossoil, CAPf, and Heatran and can also threaten to switch stuff thanks to decent Def drop chances. Waterfall is unoptimal due to low speed.
• Knock Off can remove items from Pokemon such as Kartana, Jumbao, and CAPf, weakening thier ability to break through CAPw. Also punishes defensive Pokemon and hits Steel-types like Naviathan and Magnezone.
• Facade is a powerful move that utilizes the power of Poison Heal with 140 BP, hitting anything that doesn't resist it quite hard. Works well with Water-type STAB as it beats Rocks like Crucibelle and Tyranitar.
• Toxic can be used to instead punish bulky mons and annoys mons in general with status.
• Poison Jab is good coverage that lets it hit Grass-types that otherwise resist Liquidation such as Jumbao, Tapu Bulu, and Pyroak, while also hitting dangerous Fairies like Tapu Koko.
• Recover keepin' ya alive alongside that sweet PHeal.

Will supply calcs for moves later, but I think Knock Off should absolutely be an option considering its utility use, especially against non-Z Steel-types. Knocking off items is great for a defensive mon, but wanted to apply it for the offensive set.

​

 

[Roland le preaux]

Kind of surprised no one has submitted this yet. Most of these moves seem to be widely supported and I think this might end up one of the most popular sets for CAP 25w.

Moveset Submission

Name: Slow Pivot
Move 1: Scald
Move 2: U-Turn
Move 3: Spiky Shield
Move 4: Wish / Haze / Clear Smog
Ability: Poison Heal
Item: Toxic Orb
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
Nature: Relaxed

• Scald is a very spammable move that can cripple physical attackers and 80 Special Attack is a usable stat to hit Fire, Rock, and Ground types for decent damage.
• U-Turn and a -Speed nature enable 25w to scout enemy switches or absorb coverage attacks and then pivot into its allies. Thanks to a decent Attack stat (and an immunity to Scald burns), this move will also deal good chip damage as 25w pivots out.
• Spiky Shield allows 25w to safely activate its Toxic Orb and then stall for extra turns of healing. It also deals damage to enemies that rely on contact moves, especially opposing U-Turners that try to gain momentum.
• Wish combined with Spiky Shield allows 25w to act as a Wish Passer for its team and also wall more threats with reliable self-healing. Haze prevents opposing Pokemon from taking advantage of 25w's passive nature and using it as setup fodder. I think we should also consider Clear Smog as a damaging option to achieve the same results.
• Poison Heal is necessary to recover 1/8 of health each turn, making 25w an effective physical wall.
• Toxic Orb is necessary to reliably activate Poison Heal.
• A Relaxed nature maximizes physical defense and minimizes Speed. This grants 25w an even slower U-Turn while preserving damage on both U-Turn and Scald.

Edit: Ok how did I miss this?

Moveset Submission
Name: Cleric
Move 1: Spiky Shield
Move 2: Wish
Move 3: U-turn / Psycho Shift / Ice Beam
Move 4: Scald
Ability: Poison Heal
Item: Toxic Orb
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Nature: Relaxed / Bold

Well, then consider this post a vote of support for the above submission. I didn't really add much beyond the Clear Smog option. I don't really think Psycho Shift would be worth it, though. We would lose two turns of Toxic healing and put ourselves at risk of Knock Off.

 

[escarlata]

Moveset Submission

Name: Stallbreaker
Move 1: Taunt
Move 2: Toxic / Hone Claw
Move 3: Razor Shell / Leech Life
Move 4: Recover / Spiky Shield
Ability: Poison Heal
Item: Toxic Orb
EVs: 252 HP / 16 Def / 240 Spe
Impish Nature

Considering that we have a very similar defensive spread to Gliscor, we can run a similar stallbreaking set to Gliscor if we were to get access to Taunt as well.

• Taunt prevents slower Pokemon from using recovery, Defogging, or setting up themselves.
• Toxic lets you wear things down while they are unable to Recover.
• Hone Claw lets us boost slowly without also boosting our defenses, without the possible implications of SD / BU / CM messing with our C/C list
• Interestingly, our best physical Bug STABs in Leech Life or Lunge both grants us some longevity; while
• Our best physical Water STABs in Liquidation or Razor Shell chips away on the enemy defenses
• Recover or Spiky Shield to buy more turns, probably Recover with Razor Shell, and Spiky Shield with Leech Life.
• 240 Spe outruns Adamant 252 Tyranitar, which we 2HKO with +1 STAB on the switch in
  • +1 0 Atk Surskit Razor Shell vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar: 212-252 (58.7 - 69.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
• Alternatively, 252 HP / 116 Def / 140 Spe outruns uninvested base 80s.

I don't necessarily advocate for this set to be a main set, but I'm putting it out here so we can experiment if we really want to give Taunt to 25w. For instance, Taunt means that 25w can then beat some C/Cs on our threatlist like Toxapex, Argonaut and Gastrodon by blocking their recovery options.

 

[CharSiuEmboar]

I know it's a little off kilter, but;

Moveset Submission:
Name: Baited (Shell) Trap
Move 1: Shell Trap
Move 2: Spiky Shield
Move 3: Sucker Punch / Ice Shard
Move 4: Hidden Power Grass / Hidden Power Fire / Hidden Power Ice
Ability: Poison Heal
Item: Toxic Orb / Kee Berry
EVs: 252 Def / 252 SpA /
Nature: Quiet

This does have the issue of slightly messing with Ferrothorn - but Hidden Power Fire already put paid to Ferrothorn with Modest+Full Investment outdamaging it as a Ferrothorn "lure" if you wanted it to. Jumbao is the only other listed counter who'd be badly affected by the Fire type move, especially if it had Drought, but Jumbao doesn't use Phys anyway.

252+ SpA Araquanid Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 56 SpD Ferrothorn: 176-208 (50 - 59%) -- 67.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Araquanid Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 168 SpD Ferrothorn: 160-192 (45.4 - 54.5%) -- 5.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
32 Atk Ferrothorn Power Whip vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Araquanid: 118-139 (36.5 - 43%) -- 6.5% chance to 3HKO after Poison Heal

With our Speed so low, there's no way we're taking out Necturna in normal play, so we either need Trick Room, or we need Priority - the only real priority available to make a dent is one of Ice Shard, or Sucker Punch - no Aqua Jet for obvious reasons. Combining Spiky Shield with Sucker Punch gives some real clout to put a dent in offensive Necturna, especially if it has already taken chip damage while throwing in some additional. If Necturna has Stone Edge, it's good night gracie, there's not much we can do about that. However, it can still be made to pay with it. To prevent Necturna trying to Phantom Force to bypass Spiky Shield, CAP25w's Shell Trap requires it to be at +4 to nab the kill, while the high 2HKO Chance with Ice Shard after Rocks puts a big dent on Necturna's parade, especially if it's switching in with help from a Rough Skin/Rocky Helmet support elsewhere in the team. HP Ice is a 2HKO after rocks as an option.

4 Atk Araquanid Sucker Punch vs. -1 0 HP / 0 Def Necturna: 146-172 (54.2 - 63.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
4 Atk Araquanid Ice Shard vs. -1 0 HP / 0 Def Necturna: 84-100 (31.2 - 37.1%) -- 79.7% chance to 3HKO
4 Atk Araquanid Ice Shard vs. -2 0 HP / 0 Def Necturna: 112-132 (41.6 - 49%) -- 80.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Araquanid Shell Trap vs. -1 0 HP / 4 SpD Necturna: 332-392 (123.4 - 145.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252+ Atk Necturna Power Whip vs. 0 HP / 252 Def Araquanid: 301-355 (93.1 - 109.9%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Poison Heal
+2 252+ Atk Necturna Phantom Force vs. 0 HP / 252 Def Araquanid: 226-267 (69.9 - 82.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Poison Heal
252+ Atk Necturna Never-Ending Nightmare (175 BP) vs. 0 HP / 252 Def Araquanid: 220-259 (68.1 - 80.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Poison Heal
+2 252+ Atk Necturna Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 252 Def Araquanid: 334-394 (103.4 - 121.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Spiky Shield in the face of the Power Whip forces it to go for Phantom Edge, which risks the OHKO Shell Trap after being set up, while if it's at 0, it can't make a dent.

Against Mega-Scizor;

252+ SpA Araquanid Shell Trap vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Scizor-Mega: 520-612 (151.6 - 178.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 0+ Atk Scizor-Mega Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 252 Def Araquanid: 161-190 (49.8 - 58.8%) -- 17.6% chance to 2HKO after Poison Heal

It suffers against Special Sets unless Hidden Power Fire is ran as a special option to deal with Syclant, which is an option if you don't need Grass to take on Mega-Swampert, or Ice to threaten Zygarde and Fidgit. Shell Trap is irrelevant to special sets (the majority of which Syclant uses) - Hidden Power Fire would kill it with some SpA investment regardless. However, Phys sets can't 2HKO at +2 without Life Orb, Spiky Shield breaks the sash, provides healing, and gets gibbed in return by the Shell Trap.

252+ SpA Araquanid Hidden Power Fire vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Syclant: 336-396 (119.5 - 140.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Syclant Bug Buzz vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Araquanid: 138-163 (42.7 - 50.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Poison Heal
+3 252 SpA Syclant Bug Buzz vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Araquanid: 343-405 (106.1 - 125.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 0 Atk Syclant Leech Life vs. 0 HP / 252 Def Araquanid: 144-171 (44.5 - 52.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Poison Heal

Zygarde isn't making much headway even with Outrage if Poison Heal is active and Hidden Power Ice was selected. However, any Substitute Sets are still rather painful to chew through.

252+ SpA Araquanid Hidden Power Ice vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Zygarde: 220-260 (61.4 - 72.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock.

252+ Atk Zygarde Outrage vs. 0 HP / 252 Def Araquanid: 133-157 (41.1 - 48.6%) -- 99.8% chance to 3HKO after Poison Heal
252+ Atk Zygarde Devastating Drake (190 BP) vs. 0 HP / 252 Def Araquanid: 211-249 (65.3 - 77%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Poison Heal

Colossoil's Sucker Punch can be a pain - and it's pretty fat. Facade still allows a kill, but it's a bit lairy when you involve Burn chip, Spiky Shield, and 25w's own fatness giving it maybe only a 25% 3HKO chance vs Shell Traps 2HKO after Burn and Chip, if my maths is correct. (-25% from Spiky Shield, -12.5% from Burn Chip = -37.5%, healed 37.5% from Poison Heal)

252+ SpA Araquanid Shell Trap vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Colossoil: 170-200 (41.7 - 49.1%) -- 82.4% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Guts Colossoil Facade (140 BP) vs. 0 HP / 252 Def Araquanid: 178-210 (55.1 - 65%) -- 96.1% chance to 2HKO after Poison Heal

Mega Swampert; Hidden Power Grass or nah. It's a rain mon, fire is worthless. You can however stall out its best days in the Rain by just shoving your fat ass down its throat and dealing a ton of chip. Works wonders with dedicated support to remove the other setters like Tomo and Pelipper. Spiky Shield and HP Ice can not only stall out the rain, but can also kill quicker than Rain Boosted Waterfall can thanks to Poison Heal.

252+ SpA Araquanid Hidden Power Grass vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Swampert-Mega: 192-228 (56.3 - 66.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Araquanid Hidden Power Ice vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Swampert-Mega: 48-57 (14 - 16.7%) -- possible 6HKO

252+ Atk Swampert-Mega Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 252 Def Araquanid: 74-87 (22.9 - 26.9%) -- possible 7HKO after Poison Heal
252+ Atk Swampert-Mega Waterfall vs. 0 HP / 252 Def Araquanid in Rain: 89-105 (27.5 - 32.5%) -- possible 5HKO after Poison Heal

Fidgit's Earth Power is outdamaged by HP Ice while Poison Heal recovers almost all damage.

If Choice Locked into Secret Sword, Keldeo is Shell Trap meat, but Hidden Power Grass combined with Spiky Shield's safe healing lets you whittle your way through his HP while Scarfed variants struggle to damage you even with STAB or SE physical ones with Stone Edge getting off lightly from Spiky Shield.

252+ SpA Araquanid Hidden Power Grass vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Keldeo: 112-134 (34.6 - 41.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Araquanid: 137-162 (42.4 - 50.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Poison Heal

There isn't much Arghonaut is doing to either 25w or us to it; however, it rarely runs Gunk Shot, although I can see it doing it a fair bit now, although wanting Recover, Spikes, Circle Throw, Gunk Shot and now Aqua Jet with 25f making a showing, I'm going to hazard a guess that Aqua Jet will be more popular to OHKO 25f, rather than potentially 5HKOing 25w should it never use the Spiky Shield.

252+ SpA Araquanid Hidden Power Grass vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Arghonaut: 104-124 (25.1 - 29.9%) -- 0.1% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

Jirachi can't actually touch us without most of the damage being healed off - it's usually physical, but has little to no investment, instead preferring to Flinch Hax. 25w's low speed means that the -3 priority isn't an issue more than usual, and if the Flinch Hax fails, it's a 2HKO after leftovers.

0 Atk Jirachi Iron Head vs. 0 HP / 252 Def Araquanid: 32-38 (9.9 - 11.7%) -- possibly the worst move ever
252+ SpA Araquanid Shell Trap vs. 248 HP / 196 SpD Jirachi: 214-254 (53.1 - 63%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

However, we do have one sticking point in the switch-ins - Mega Gyarados. With high special defense, and only HP Grass, you're better off relying on something like 25g to kill it with Electro-Facade or something.
96+ Atk Mold Breaker Gyarados-Mega Crunch vs. 0 HP / 252 Def Araquanid: 109-130 (33.7 - 40.2%) -- 99.9% chance to 4HKO after Poison Heal

Hawlucha gets pressured pretty hard - if it's taken some chip damage, a Shell Trap, Ice Shard and Spiky Shield deals around 90% damage to it at +1, possibly even able to nab a KO at full HP if it's not got the Seed.
252+ SpA Araquanid Shell Trap vs. 96 HP / 36 SpD Hawlucha: 179-211 (55.7 - 65.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
4 Atk Araquanid Ice Shard vs. +1 96 HP / 0 Def Hawlucha: 48-58 (14.9 - 18%) -- possible 6HKO

Landorus-T

224 Atk Landorus Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 252 Def Araquanid: 156-184 (48.2 - 56.9%) -- 2.3% chance to 2HKO after Poison Heal
4 Atk Araquanid Ice Shard vs. 32 HP / 4 Def Landorus: 120-144 (36.6 - 44%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ SpA Araquanid Hidden Power Ice vs. 32 HP / 0- SpD Landorus: 280-332 (85.6 - 101.5%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO

Spiky Shield allows the guarantee you won't be 2HKO'd if you switch into a defog, but unless you've got HP Ice AND Ice Shard, you're going to be struggling with LandoT. If it switches into HP Ice, it will still likely be OHKO'd by Ice Shard after.

Mega-Crucibelle cannot be touched - its high special defense means that unless the low accuracy of Head Smash means it misses 2 in a row, even replacing Hidden Power with Hydro Pump will do little. Versus Tapu Bulu, if it's SD'd up, it's capable of OHKO with Horn Leech - Ice Shard can grab a kill however if it was super low. Tomo, Koko, Krilowatt, Jumbao (might need to watch out for HP Fire + Ice Shard if it at 50%)

Pajantom is a 3HKO with Spirit Shackle/Brave Bird if there's no poison heal, but that turns it into a 4HKO, allowing HP Ice and/or Ice Shard to have some fun.

You get the picture. Any more calcs requested, let me know.


Changes to the Threatlist;
Mega-Gyarados; becomes a Check and Counter
Mega-Crucibelle; becomes a Check and Counter
Ferrothorn; becomes a Switch In

 

[Gross Sweep]

Moveset Submission 02:
Name: It's a Trap!
Move 1: Spider Web Whirlpool
Move 2: Perish Song
Move 3: Scald / U-Turn Ice Beam / Toxic / Knock Off
Move 4: Recover Protect / Baneful Bunker / Spiky Shield
Ability: Poison Heal
Item: Toxic Orb
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
IVs: 24 Spe
Nature: Bold / Impish

So I am a big fan of 25W having some sort of trapping niche, as I feel the option makes it much more splashable in the cutthroat world of bulky waters. Meaning I am a fan of the general idea of the submitted set, I just have a different vision for what that set should look like. I would like to start by emphasizing that I feel this set is most effective when it's secondary to other options, and not overly obvious which is why I chose the options I did. I started with Whirlpool > Spider Web as it frees slot 3, which was Scald, as we combine our water STAB with our trapping move of choice (also helps us milk damage against our offensive checks with the help of Protect). I agree PSong is the best way to eliminate opponents, so I left that alone. No more need for Scald in slot 3, and I didn't like a U-Turn approach on 25W in general so I axed that. Instead I listed several feasible options we could learn that are very beneficial: Ice Beam helps pressure stuff like Zygarde more than Whirlpool, Toxic hits switch ins that we struggle trapping like Zapdos, Koko, and Cyclohm, and Knock off is just general utility that is very widespread. In the final slot I went with Protect over Recover as I feel 50% recovery isn't really needed on the mon, especially as Protect helps us take a turn away aiding the perish trap and giving us all the recovery we need effectively healing 25% between hits taken.

I felt like the final product of this set does everything we want/need out of a trapping set while also having the slight ability to bluff being just some defensive pivot set as we can come in and click Protect/our slot 3 pretty safely until the opposition is lulled into security and we set the trap.

Also I went with all Protect options since any of them can work, and I have seen debates for giving 25W one of the upgraded Protects. I don't really have a preference for any of them, just making it clear none of them really effect this set much, meaning plain Protect is plenty sufficient.

 

[Catalisador]

I started with Whirlpool > Spider Web as it frees slot 3, which was Scald, as we combine our water STAB with our trapping move of choice (also helps us milk damage against our offensive checks with the help of Protect).

I am not a huge fan of Whirlpool over something like Spider Web or Infestation due it's lower accuracy. If getting chip damage against offensive checks is needed, I believe Infestation can do a better job with it's 100% accuracy.

didn't like a U-Turn approach on 25W in general so I axed that.

U-Turn could be an option to sponge one last hit before switching into a frail pokemon, so I think it's worth considering. I do agree this option can be slashed with Ice Beam or Toxic to pressure the likes of Zygarde and Necturna. I also agree Knock Off provides a lot of utility. Scald could be slashed as well if running Spider Web/Infestation over Whirlpool.

In the final slot I went with Protect over Recover as I feel 50% recovery isn't really needed on the mon, especially as Protect helps us take a turn away aiding the perish trap and giving us all the recovery we need effectively healing 25% between hits taken.

I agree as well. After thinking a little bit, I think a protecting move is enough for recovery. Spiky Shield or Baneful Bunker would be preferred over Protect due to being able to chip away on some offensive checks.


Another thing I'm not sure about anymore is if CAP25w should have access to Recover. So much healing could be problematic and potentially 1v1 some of it's checks.

 

[Catalisador]

Moveset Submission 01:

Name: Secondary Win Condition
Move 1: Scald
Move 2: Calm Mind
Move 3: Taunt / Acid Armor
Move 4: Earth Power / Recover
Ability: Poison Heal
Item: Toxic Orb
EVs: 248 HP / 152 Def / 8 SpA / 88 SpD / 20 Spe
Nature: Calm

I optimized the moveset, so I'd like to share that with you guys.

Moveset Submission 01:

Name: Secondary Win Condition
Move 1: Scald
Move 2: Calm Mind
Move 3: Acid Armor / Earth Power
Move 4: Baneful Bunker
Ability: Poison Heal
Item: Toxic Orb
EVs: 248 HP / 160 Def / 88 SpD / 20 Spe
Nature: Calm

After some consideration, I agree with the fact that this set could potentially 1v1 most of it's checks, so I changed it a bit.

I kept the basic win condition strategy. Working as a regular defensive pokemon early game and setting up to clean late-game.
I did change the EV spread, as the 8 SpA didn't actually change a lot of interactions, s I just added it to the defense for better checking the likes of Landorus-T and Colossoil.
I got rid of Taunt as I realized it provided too much utility at beating our counters list, 1v1-ing Toxapex, Arghonaut, etc. This change actually makes it harder for CAP25w to setup against unprepared teams, not making it an overwhelming presence in the metagame.
Baneful Bunker was chosen over Recover as I realized it already had enough recovery in Poison Heal and a protecting move + Poison Heal is enough to beat what this moveset is supposed to without messing so much with counters and checks like Cyclohm.

Keep in mind this is still huge WIP and I might change it again later. Might add the calculations later as well to help better understanding the matchups.

 

[Warren685]

First and foremost, I tihnk the most crucial element of defensive pokemon's usage is having some relevant pressure or key utility past toxic/scald. The number of defensive pokemon that get away with being absolutely passive are near non-existent. I think that once a defensive Pokemon gets access to this, they can be compared to others and will be able to be mix-n-matched with other defensive Pokemon for synergistic role compression. Lets say we give it stealth rock, if we start off with Ferrothorn we might choose to add this mon to have Spikes + SR stacking. If we start off with Fidgit we might add this pokemon to have two synergistic Trick Room setters if it got Trick Room. It doesnt need to be a mon that you can pretty much start your team with like Arghonaut (and we dont need to shoot for that either) but we can make a mon that actually has utilities that stand out to be paired with other defensive pokemon. Then it just wont have heavy competition with Argho, unless that utility chosen is Spikes.
I know this is common sense to some but I just wanted to say that we dont need to make a broken mon because it doesnt offer what Arghonaut offers. It just needs to offer some utility/misc that'll give it something to press without losing heavy momentum, because thats what all mons need.

Some examples of this would be: Stealth Rock, Defog, U-turn, Trick Room, Perish Song, Bulk Up. I think all of these have synergy with our ability and arent immediately broken like Leech Seed, Wish, or Calm Mind. Id love to see Stealth Rock and Trick Room personally because I think they have quick impact and 25W wants to make the most of the turns it finds to switch in since it wont wall things indefinitely. SR also has a fair amount of counterplay from common defoggers and as a trick room setter it has nice typing synergy with Fidgit.

That being said heres a set that works around Disable, which pairs nicely with our recovery and protective moves. I think Disable helps bulk up be an actually threatening set and ill explain more at the end

Moveset Submission:

cap25w @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Poison Heal
EVs: 252 HP / 20 Def / 236 SpD
Impish Nature
- Bulk Up
- Substitute
- Disable / Protect
- Razor Shell / Lunge

• Bulk Up is a setup move that pairs well with poison heal's passive recovery and the other stalling options available. After 1 Bulk Up, this mon doesnt worry about getting 2hko'd by the likes of Hawlucha's acrobatics, or Mega Mawile's Thunder Punch. (eg. its bulky) It also becomes more offensively relevant, with +1 Razor Shell actually being able to 2hko Tapu Koko and break through Zygarde's subs. Obviously it will be aiming to bulk up multiple times.
• Substitute works with poison heal naturally- scouting for moves and being a great move to press when the opponent switches out into a counter. This works well with bulk up which makes subs increasingly difficult to break. This mon can sub on Clefable's Moonblast without it breaking, as well as anything from Celesteela. At +1 Def, its sub wont be broken by things like Pajantom's Spirit Shackle or Ferrothorn's Power Whip. And Substitute's biggest purpose is synergy with Disable/Protect, which is next.
• Disable is a very powerful move here and deserves some discussion. Just by nature it goes against usual cap principle (similar to the likes of destiny bond, leech seed, knock off) since its main purpose is to play against its counters and checks. Disable has a dual purpose- it either turns things into setup fodder like choice-locked pokemon and mons that can only hit 25w with one attack like Tapu Koko, Chansey or Tornadus-T, or it disables recovery moves from things that theoretically wall it. When using substitute, you can disable an incoming attack to get around the attacker, but this isnt always reliable if the opponent expects a Disable set.
• The alternative for the set is Protect, which has an emphasis on PP Stalling out moves like Magma Storm or Hurricane, or anything choice-locked. Protect also allows the mon to grab some extra healing more reliably throughout the match and activate its orb safely as early as turn 1.
• Razor Shell helps pull the set together by being an alright BP STAB attack, but the most helpful element is the 50% def drop that grants this a little bonus offensive pressure and a way to get around Unaware users like Argho and Clefable.
• Lunge is a bug equivalent that doesnt leave this walled by Water Absorb or Storm Drain, and also helps dampen switchins, but its a pretty weak mono-attack unless you can guarantee several Bulk Ups because coverage. The attack drop can be useful in situations.

https://a.pomf.cat/cvyhzt.html

I think this is a really good replay to show its potential: 25W found multiple substitute opportunities on the opposing 25W and started to bulk up. It managed to get through Jumbao thanks to a leaf storm miss (which shows its weakness to special attackers that have multiple attacks that hit it hard), and after that it happily beat Tapu Koko by disabling Thunderbolt (which was the only move to break substitute) and was able to find the turns to bulk up in order to tank Thunder Punch Mega Mawile, Zygarde and Steelium Heatran hits and win the game. I wanted to bring this up because i think it teeters on the edge of whats healthy for the mon and its a good time to also discuss bulk up can remove stuff from our check list like Pajantom. But then Pajantom is also flexible enough with its moveset to hit us with Spirit Shackle followed by Gastro Acid.

calcs

252+ Atk Choice Band Zygarde Thousand Arrows vs. 252 HP / 20+ Def Araquanid: 83-98 (21.5 - 25.3%)

0 Atk Ferrothorn Power Whip vs. +1 252 HP / 20+ Def Araquanid: 67-81 (17.3 - 20.9%) -- possible 5HKO

252 SpA Jumbao Solar Beam vs. 252 HP / 236 SpD Araquanid: 156-184 (40.4 - 47.6%)

0 SpA Clefable Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 236 SpD Araquanid: 81-96 (20.9 - 24.8%)

0 SpA Celesteela Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 236 SpD Araquanid: 56-67 (14.5 - 17.3%)

0 SpA Tornadus-Therian Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 236 SpD Araquanid: 210-248 (54.4 - 64.2%)

0 Atk Arghonaut Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 20+ Def Araquanid: 62-74 (16 - 19.1%)

252 Atk Pajantom Spirit Shackle vs. +1 252 HP / 20+ Def Araquanid: 75-88 (19.4 - 22.7%)

I guess Ill end the post by mentioning some things that I think are super broken and shouldnt be considered:

-Recover/Moonlight/Wish: This mon is getting so much done on the test server right now without 50% recovery. It has absurd mixed defenses and can heal 75% over 1 turn + protect. That means it can stall out any super effective hit under that, which is just a bit too crazy for my liking. If we dont give it this ridiculous healing, we have the opportunity to add more concept-fitting moves, and things like hazards and bulk up.

-Calm Mind: This is inappropriate because after just a single CM you can laugh at a fair few special attacks from counters. Krilowatt for instance does under 50% vs CM plus special defensive investment, and that means it can be beaten. I also believe the special attacking sets to be much more bothersome as they patch up its "weaker" special defense stat while allowing it to run a physically defensive spread that lets it do its other duties with ease throughout the match.

-Leech Seed: We discussed it to hell in discord, and the level of pressure it applies is way too much. Leech Seed is a very good move but healing 25% a turn sounds a bit too far, I dont rly want to explain it too far but just generic points like "we hit the only immune typing super effectively" and "this mon finds a lot of switchins and will wear down all its counters with its absurd healing" is all i have for now

If you're running Razor Shell on this set wouldn't it be better to run Coil over Bulk up since both moves does the same exact thing except Coil would make Razor Shell 100% hit?