CAP 6 CAP 6 - Part 11 - Supporting Moves Discussion

[sbc]

Bulk Up - Uanllowed. This pokemon has enough attack and defense to become almost as good as Revenankh at BUing, especially with the potential for Recovery and quite a few priority moves. And with this being a TM, it does not have any moveset limiations, so it can be used with anything. Its a definate no from me.

Do you honestly believe that? Come on.

Revenankh has no common weaknesses (Psychic, Ghost, Flying of which two are weak to its STAB), doesn't give a shit about burn, sleep or toxic spikes, only needs two attacks to cover every single pokemon in the game for at least neutral damage, can potentially recover its whole life and status in one turn without any drawbacks.

This pokemon cannot sit around stalling all day as Toxic Spikes will kill it, it can be burnt and put to sleep. Water/Fighting coverage really pales in comparison to Ghost/Fighting: Celebi, Gyarados, Salamence, Starmie, Slowbro, Toxicroak all resist that combination and it has a weakness to Thunderbolt one of the most common attacks in the game and thus will almost certainly lose to Zapdos and Rotom appliances. And there's no STAB Ghost attack to hit stuff like Gengar and Cresselia for SE damage.

I'm still unconvinced on bulk up due to all three priorities passing, as well as thunderpunch/stone edge tacked onto ice punch+it's stabs seem like nutty coverage... essentially i can't see anything threatening the bulk up+3 attacks set bar celebi/skarm/zapdos, but i guess the lack of recovery/status vulnerabilities counterbalance that.

Water/Fighting/Rock loses to Cresselia, Celebi, skarmory, slowbro, starmie, toxicroak
Water/Fighting/Electric loses to Celebi, Zapdos, Mence, cresselia, probably Slowbro and Skarmory, Venasaur etc

And without solid recovery its going to be at best an "offensive suicune" version of it i.e. generally overlooked for its bulky variants.

 

[Lawman]

In my defense, I did say "almost". ;>_>

 

[darkie]

How about we stop telling me to allow things that are already in allowed and instead focus on sorting out things without an opinion (the pending list). Don't worry about getting stuff out of controversial since it doesn't mean that the move itself is controversial, simply that the community is split on the issue and will vote on it.

 

[Cartoons!]

The majority of those moves in pending probably wouldn't see much use anyway, so it'd come down to fitting with the art style.

Would it be worth bringing up Counter/Mirror Coat? Counter is already learned by most Fighting types anyway, but my real interest is in Mirror Coat, which can be learned by a fair few Water types and can gain a surprise KO against Zapdos, Celebi etc. at the cost of a moveslot.

 

[Solstice]

I think Mirror Coat is an excellent idea. It would work well with the Pokemon, and it gives it a way to counteract against Zapdos that opens up a slot for another attacking move.

 

[tennisace]

did i miss something?

everyone is talking about bulk up, but i thought this guys ability was set to always be unaware meaning bulk up would be worthless

Unaware only affects the opponent's boosts, meaning Bulk Up would in a way be DOUBLY effective, because the opponent can't boost around it.

 

[SgtWoodsy]

Unaware only affects the opponent's boosts, meaning Bulk Up would in a way be DOUBLY effective, because the opponent can't boost around it.

Hence the extreme opposition towards Bulk Up.

Counter and Mirror Coat might be a good idea, as mentioned above.

 

[chronostrike]

I oppose mirror coat. This pokemon has enough SDef to avoid OHKO by most of its counters and could KO with Mirror Coat + priority, especially Ice Shard vs. Zapdos/Celebi.

 

[ferron]

i am very much for flatter and swagger. bibarel has already show the unaware+swagger combo can be great, and i think we should give it another chance.

 

[Deck Knight]

Counter and Mirror Coat for Unallowed My gut feeling is that Bulk Up + Counter would be too powerful, and Mirror Coat gives it too much of an escape against Zapdos/Celebi etc. That being said, I'm pretty sure LOZapdos still wipes it out with Thunderbolt, and SubZapdos defeats Mirror Coat handily.

 

[jagged_angel]

Glare should be allowed if Thunder Wave is too controversial; it doesnt have the questionable flavour issues, is less accurate and so will be less of a surefire impediment to faster threats. It does give CAP6 the Ability to paralyse Grounds and Volt Absorbers but Dugtrio and Jolteon are the only ones who would be adversely affected really.

Rapin Spin should be allowed since the metagame always needs more spinners and since this might have a chance to force Revenankh out, it might be able to compete for a moveslot on some sets.

Swallow should be allowed as its reliable healing in conjunction with Stockpile which is allowed, but can't be said to be overpowered as you have to Stockpile twice to get 50% recovery and you lose the boosts if you Swallow them.
As CAP6 has a strong competitive reason to want recovery and the stats to back it up, Swallow is a good 'lesser option' along with Aqua Ring for those who are opposed to 50% Recovery moves on the basis that they would be too powerful.

Synthesis should be unallowed as only Grass types get it. You need chlorophyll in your body to be able to photosynthesise and the game recognises this - gamefreak have never broken the 'Grass types only' rule for Synthesis.

Add to that that this can easily have Recover or even Morning Sun.

If Synthesis is pending shouldn't we add Morning Sun to pending?

 

[gorm]

I'm essentially convinced that bulk up isn't "too strong" (so long as we ban 50% rec moves)


mirror coat allows it to beat a pokemon with an SE special move (which are plenty) at the risk of crippling itself. this means celebi/zapdos die if they can't ohko and out pokemon has an incentive to stay in on them. I'm saying unallowed

counter should probably be allowed, most fight mons get it and apart from gyarados (who fears stone edge and tpunch) i don't really see any potential checks getting given a har time because of it. i don't see the harm in bulk up counter since aren't people going to send special/status threats first o_o;

 

[X-Act]

By the way, Mud Sport reduces Electric moves' power by half, both yours and your foe's. Water Sport does the same to Fire moves.

 

[jagged_angel]

Mud Sport should be allowed, it goes well with Water types flavourwise and essentially acts like adding the Shockproof Ability at the cost of a moveslot and a turn. Personally I wouldnt use it, but there was alot of support for Shockproof so it should be available for use. If actually used, it would help greatly against Zapdos.

 

[dmlaw]

I quite like the idea of Mud Sport for if anyone is really desperate to shed the electric weakness. Not too sure how much it would get used though.

 

[tennisace]

I quite like the idea of Mud Sport for if anyone is really desperate to shed the electric weakness. Not too sure how much it would get used though.

I'm pretty sure the amount would be statistically equivalent to zero. I'm fine with moving Mud Sport to Allowed. On an unrelated note, is your name from those D'Olivera and Morgan lawyer commercials?

 

[billymills]

Charm and Scary Face should be allowed. If we bother to use them. Unaware means they won't be very useful.

 

[Lawman]

I agree with allowing those moves billy but I think you got the wrong reasoning there. First of all, lowering some 2hko's to 3 or 4 hits is very useful, and Unaware does not factor in speed.

 

[Drakhun]

why the fear of bulk up + recovery. A set of:

Bulk Up
Recover
Waterfall
(fighting move here)

just screams 'wall me'. Bulk up is good, but that set would have like no coverage.

 

[Lawman]

You underestimate the prospect of priority moves. Unless we make Recover illegal with priority moves, which would be hard to do factoring in egg moves, that set can be rather powerful. Heck, it could even run regular attacks as Water Fighting is pretty dang good offensively. If it screams anything, it should be "Hope you can take a hit because I can!".

 

[TekkenStorm]

why the fear of bulk up + recovery. A set of:

Bulk Up
Recover
Waterfall
(fighting move here)

just screams 'wall me'. Bulk up is good, but that set would have like no coverage.

Also Zapdos still beats it as easily as before.

You underestimate the prospect of priority moves. Unless we make Recover illegal with priority moves, which would be hard to do factoring in egg moves, that set can be rather powerful. Heck, it could even run regular attacks as Water Fighting is pretty dang good offensively. If it screams anything, it should be "Hope you can take a hit because I can!".

Priority moves aren't 100% comfirmed that are going to be on the movepool (I myself if im going to make one, i wont put Recover+Bulk up+Priorities, i will likely leave Aquajet/Machpunch out of it.)

 

[Lawman]

Ah, but with Bulk Up it would be able to afford to pump its EVs into Special Defense, and could survive Thunderbolts, especially with Recover.

EDIT: I ran some calcs, and I found that CAP6, if it ran Calm 252/0/252 Defenses, like it would with Bulk Up and Recover, it could stall out non-offensive Zapdos' Thunderbolt with Recover.

 

[TekkenStorm]

Ah, but with Bulk Up it would be able to afford to pump its EVs into Special Defense, and could survive Thunderbolts, especially with Recover.

If its an Offensive Zapdos recover wont save you from the 2HKO, as Thunderbolt out damages the healing.

If its a Defensive Zapdos he could roost off the damage as i doubt that a +1 Waterfall is enough to 2hko him.

EDIT: Your calcs proof what i said but don't forget that Zapdos can also stall with Roost and if im not mistaken Recover and Roost got the same PP so in the end Zapdos will win.

 

[Lawman]

Okay, you have a point, but with good prediction you could Cross Chop when they roost or something. I am not saying you are wrong, I am just saying that regardless of Zapdos having roost, CAP6 can potentially stall out non-offensive versions with Recover.

 

[darkie]

So why are you still debating that a controversial move is well.. controversial? Focus on moving stuff -from- allowed and -from- pending.