CAP 8 CAP 8 - Part 12a - Attacking Moves Discussion

[bear]

I know this is speculation but if cyzir's does win Tri Attack needs to be mentioned.

 

[Veedrock]

For the final time, art is not going to have any relation to the movepool. Arguments consitsing of "it doesn't fit the art" are not valid.

Explosion/Selfdestruct/Volt Tackle/Focus Punch/Superpower/Cross Chop should be unallowed, even with 60 attack they can still do a fuckton of damage (see: Gengar), and I'd like to limit this Pokemon's physical capabilities. Blissey and Snorlax are supposed to be big counters, and this limits their ability to come in safely. It doesn't need the ability to go mixed outside of the occasional gimmick Outrage.

About Focus Punch/Superpower, yes Gengar uses them of 65 Attack. However, it's not correct to say "it's still strong" because it isn't; Blissey is just weak. Without investment which Gengar needs elsewhere (as will CAP8), even Blissey can still take the blow.

[B]Gengar:[/B]
0 Superpower vs. 0/252 Blissey:    36.87% - 43.63%
252 Superpower vs. 0/252 Blissey:  50.69% - 59.91%
0 Focus Punch vs. 0/252 Blissey:   46.08% - 54.38%
252 Focus Punch vs. 0/252 Blissey: 63.59% - 74.96%
 
0 Superpower vs. 168/120 Snorlax:    29.03% - 34.59%
252 Superpower vs. 168/120 Snorlax:  40.16% - 47.32%
0 Focus Punch vs. 168/120 Snorlax:   36.18% - 42.94%
252 Focus Punch vs. 168/120 Snorlax: 50.10% - 59.24%

Yeah, Gengar doesn't get Superpower, bite me. It's for reference. CAP8 will be doing slightly less damage with the corresponding moves.

Focus Punch takes extraneous setup, and this completely ignores that Blissey can't touch Gengar (especially behind a sub), meaning it's not even an ideal switch in (it'll stall with Recovery, which it can do Focus Punch or no Focus Punch). Blissey CAN touch CAP8 though, and its really sacrificing moveslots just for Blissey. It should be noted that Superpower is going to deal less damage during the second hit as well, whilest making CAP8 more vulnerable to physical attacks (go go Dugtrio). I fail to see the danger with these moves and I feel you may be overestimating their effectiveness. I can understand Selfdestruct and Explosion though. What the hell is Volt Tackle gonna hit that makes it so dangerous?

 

[Grimoire]

Obvious Moves are
Special Electric Attacks
ThunderPunch/Thunder Fang(though it doesn't really need them, they should be allowed)
Dragon Pulse
Physical Dragon Moves(for the most part)


Moves I think it should be allowed to get and the reasons
Charge Beam - The chances of it getting a +2SpA stat up move I think is decently low. In addition Dragon Pulse would likely be its move of choice. Therefore, I think Charge Beam + Bulk + Great Dragon Stab would be enough to apply a psuedo stat up.

Overheat - I feel it should get overheat as a lone fire type move. I don't think we should completely block fire moves on the set, however, I also think the fire options should be limited. Perhaps Heatwave instead(Zapdos is an example of getting Heatwave but little else fire wise)

Water Moves - Not sure here, I think it should get some, but I don't really think it needs Surf/Hydro Pump. Water Pulse(Articuno for example) could be a gimmicky option but I don't really think it is all that competitive, particularly without stab.

Volt Tackle/Outrage - I do believe it should at least be able to run some sort of pseudo mixed set.

Focus Punch - At the very least it is controversial. At best it should be included. As stated it requires a Sub to be effective(though predicted switches can also work).

Moves I am kinda meh on
Draco Meteor - I am borderline here, leaning towards allowed.


Notable Moves I wouldn't want to see on this.
Earth Power - This would obviously nerf Heatran and/or Magnezone as potential counters far worse than fire/water moves would.

Earthquake - Not as bad as earth power but I still don't see the need for it.

Explosion/Selfdestruct - Not everything needs to have these as an option and personally I don't want them on this thing.

Special Fighting Moves - Yeah this really doesn't need it. Superpower and Focus Punch have grave drawbacks to their use, the special moves(other than Focus Blast) would give it too much impunity as far as I am concerened.


Moves that I wonder why!
Tri Attack - I don't see why not, but why would you want this? I would just think it would be a wasted space of move pool space!

 

[bear]

It was just a thought seeing how cyzir's has three heads but Art =/= Movepool so meh.

 

[Pisti]

I used that listed linked to for those competitively viable moves or something.

Physical:[U]

Bug[/U]
-U-Turn

[U]Dark[/U]
-Crunch
-Sucker Punch

[U]Dragon[/U]
-Outrage
-Dragon Rush
-Dragon Claw

[U]Electric[/U]
-Thunder Fang
-ThunderPunch
-Spark

[U]Fighting[/U]
-SuperPower
-Brick Break
-Seismic Toss

[U]Fire[/U]
-Fire Punch
-Fire Fang

[U]Flying[/U]
-Aerial Ace
-Pluck

[U]Ghost[/U]
-Shadow Claw

[U]Ground[/U]
-Earthquake

[U]Ice[/U]
-Ice Punch
-Ice Fang

[U]Normal[/U]
-Double-Edge
-Return/Frustration
-Giga Impact
-Fake Out
-Facade
-Slash
-Body Slam

[U]Poison[/U]
-Poison Jab

[U]Psychic[/U]
-Zen Headbutt

[U]Rock[/U]
-Stone Edge
-Rock Slide

[U]Steel[/U]
-Iron Tail
-Iron Head

Special:

[U]Bug[/U]
-Signal Beam

[U]Dragon[/U]
-Draco Meteor
-Dragon Pulse
-Dragonbreath

[U]Electric[/U]
-Thunder
-Thunderbolt
-Discharge
-Charge Beam

[U]Fighting[/U]
-Focus Blast

[U]Fire[/U]
-Overheat
-Fire Blast
-Flamethrower

[U]Ghost[/U]
-Shadow Ball

[U]Ice[/U]
-Blizzard
-Ice Beam

[U]Normal[/U]
-Hyper Beam
-Tri attack

[U]Rock[/U]
-Ancientpower

[U]Water[/U]
-Surf
-Water Pulse

 

[Coronis]

First of all, Id like to see flamethrower AND surf allowed. I agree with DK's reasoning for the physical fighting moves.

Lol @body slam discharge is a far better option, but....not all moves need to be competitive. I don't believe that this thing needs any grass moves, and you can always just use HP grass to counter Swampert. Ice moves are meh, I don't see a need for them.

Just my 2 cents.

 

[Deck Knight]

Flygon and Kingdra do not have both, and I would not consider them "minor dragons", especially compared to Dragonite. But regardless, this kind of argument is pointless.

I'd like to throw in Spacial Rend. I don't honestly think a tank Pokémon would make good use of it (and a Specs version would use Draco Meteor instead), but I think this move should still be Allowed since it clearly do not break CAP8

Spacial Rend is basically a Dragon Aeroblast. Aside from PP issues, there would never be a reason to run Dragon Pulse over it. unallowed

 

[TVboyCanti]

What about priority moves? Also, Roar of Time is an interesting candidate. Although "beam" attacks are usually deemed non-competitive, STAB, high base stat, and a choice item can make them more appealing (ala Tauros).

 

[Gothic Togekiss]

Close Combat for unallowed, it is a terrible move for this Pokemon. It does minimal damage to Pokemon not named Blissey and tears open huge exploitable holes in its defense. The only place most physical attacks be useful is on a Dragon Dance set, and after a DD and a CC, you have +1 Atk/-1Def/+1Spe/-1SDef, making you quite vulnerable to priority.

Hammer Arm for unallowed, it is also counter intuitive to a theoretical DD set. Cross Chop's only downside is the 80% accuracy. This seems like an acceptable price to pay without being two much double-edged sword.

I think that was the point of suggesting them. Both of them have some kind of penalty that sorta counterbalance their power. CC and it's defenses drop make it easier to counter a would be DDer while Hammer Arm makes it so that one has to forgo speed in order to use them.

 

[Deck Knight]

I think that was the point of suggesting them. Both of them have some kind of penalty that sorta counterbalance their power. CC and it's defenses drop make it easier to counter a would be DDer while Hammer Arm makes it so that one has to forgo speed in order to use them.

Bad moves weaken a pokemon's effectiveness. Good moves on everything else that are effectively bad moves on the pokemon dilute it's ability to do its job. If Close Combat and Hammer Arm for example got on but Cross Chop did not, then a DD Set employing *fighting move* would be impossible to use viably.

Nevermind I generally object to throwing on 120 BP coverage moves with absolutely no precedent for them in the type. It's really the speed combined with bulk more than the Attack that would matter on a DD'er, and Hammer Arm undermines the speed while CC undermines Bulk. The defense drop from something like Superpower would be a nuisance, but Outrage is going to crush Dragon revenge killers anyway, even without an attack boost. Actually Superpower makes Salamence a somewhat viable check to DD with Superpower, where it isn't with Close Combat. (Unless you're running something like DD/Volt Tackle/Superpower/Draco Meteor)

The thing is you could use Superpower on other sets without undermining the pokemon as a whole, since most of the switchins will be utilizing special attacks. This lets you set up a Light Screen or something before leaving with your health mostly intact.

 

[Gothic Togekiss]

So undermining a Pokemon as a whole is bad but not on in one spot....okay understand now. Well since CC and Hammer Arm are no good I'll have to throw my support towards Cross Chop then.

Separating the standard Water/Fire moves is impossible through Arghonauts breeding chicanery.

Sweet mother of lord I pray to God we don't have to go that breeding group shenanigan again. That thing will forever left a awful taste in my mouth. I still believe that kind of thing shouldn't have happened and/or that the breeding group was decided beforehand. The latter seem slightly more reasonable to me.

Speaking of priority moves, considering how electricity is usually linked with speed, it surprises me that there doesn't exist an electric priority move. I'd like to cast a vote for creating one. It compensates for the average speed of CAP 8 as well as being able to get the jump on weakened opponents, especially if we make it a Special move. And the typing makes it counterable as well by switching in an electric-immune counter.

I would support an electric priority move, especially if it's a was a Extreme speed clone. The only question is what would one name it and does CAP8 even needs a stab priority move?

 

[Korski]

Originally Posted by Fat zarator
Flygon and Kingdra do not have both, and I would not consider them "minor dragons", especially compared to Dragonite. But regardless, this kind of argument is pointless.

I think what differentiates Flygon and Kingdra from the other dragons is that they have dragon as their secondary typing. Salamence, Dragonite, Rayquaza, Latias, etc. all have it as their primary type, so their movepools are more in line with one anothers' than with the other two. Small point, I know. Needless to worry about, yes, but just saying.

And I'm pro-Spacial Rend, although I agree it will almost never be used.

I'm still pro-Focus Punch, as most Blissey can't break its 101 subs with anything but Ice Beam, and since most Blisseys seem to like the Toxic/Flamethrower combo, It's a good counter set. And, since having FP on a moveset essentially takes up two moveslots (w/sub), CAP sacrifices its potential ability to counter other things, so I think it balances out.

 

[Run]

I would support an electric priority move, especially if it's a was a Extreme speed clone. The only question is what would one name it and does CAP8 even needs a stab priority move?

a base 80 electric priority move would be overpowered if its special, I don't like the idea of making it physical because its only for CAP8 and he doesn't have much in atk, its basically begging people to EV counter to the stat spread (which isn't bad all the time, but its probably better the main sets support the base stats). I'd much rather stick with a base 40 special attack with priority.

 

[bpblu]

I'd also like feedback on the paralysis suite:

Dragonbreath, Body Slam, Discharge, Force Palm and ZAP CANNON for allowed.

How'd I guess you'd argue paralysis side-effect moves? Give me some bent-spoons because I'm frickin' psychic!

Ahem... seriously though, I'm all for Dragonbreath, Discharge, and Zap Cannon. Dragonbreath's not game-breaking, but can be useful if you're running Shield Dust as your ability. Heck, it's actually somewhat helpful if you run Static. Dragonbreath should be allowed IMO. Useful, not gamebreaking.

Discharge is obvious. Alternate STAB move to Thunderbolt. Just an issue of power vs. paralysis rate. Some choose Thunderbolt, others choose Discharge. Just depends on what you want this CaP to do.

Zap Cannon is allowed, I see absolutely no reason why it shouldn't be. Thunderbolt/Discharge will see a LOAD more use than Zap Cannon, however (that's my prediction). So really, the only plausible argument against this being allowed is movelist issues... since space is limited according to X-Act's guide.

 

[the_artic_one]

A priority move goes against the concept of this pokemon since it's supposed to use it's abilities well and both of them rely on getting hit.

 

[Ascalon]

I am well aware that art may not determine the movepool, but it seems somewhat counter-productive to give a pokemon moves that are completely out of character. For instance, while allowing Glupin to use crunch or Blaziken Ice Beam would really not have broken them, it would be a bit rediculous.

Take the "give a pokemon a move because it would be really good with it" too far and don't consider the pokemon itself, and we may as well forget sprites and names and use numbers to identify different movepools, typings and stat distibutions. For me at least, much of the charm of pokemon comes from their individual pokemon and the way their playstyle reflects them. If you ignore the character, you do not create a pokemon but a metagame-gap-filling bot.

On these grounds, I am opposed to both Hydropump and Surf and I have mixed feelings about Flamethrower and Fire Blast. I wouldn't object to Lava Plume or Heatwave though.

On the subject of Spacial Rend and Roar of Time I am also strongly opposed. In my opinion, to give a unique signiture move to another pokemon without a very good reason seems clumsy, irrational and partisan. From the way this CaP has developed, it does not have any relevence to legendary powers.

With respect to Mist ball, I would be amendable if CyzirVisheen's design won, but otherwise it doesn't make much sense. I know this is close to the art =/= movepool issue, but I do feel that it is important. Ignore character considerations and you will be left with no character, and you will essentially not have created a pokemon.

 

[Korski]

@ Ascalon. Thank you for that entire submission, but most importantly the second and fifth paragraphs. Art matters!

 

[Fuzznip]

With respect to Mist ball, I would be amendable if CyzirVisheen's design won, but otherwise it doesn't make much sense. I know this is close to the art =/= movepool issue, but I do feel that it is important. Ignore character considerations and you will be left with no character, and you will essentially not have created a pokemon.

It doesn't make much sense how Gyarados learns Thunderbolt, Flamethrower, and Ice Beam.

 

[Grimoire]

Overheat/Hydro Pump is really the only combination we could split up in this manner.

That would be interesting. Making the player pick between fire and water. It would also make it a wildcard until it used fire/water. Plus Hydro Pump/Overheat both have drawbacks that make them less than perfect options in most cases.

 

[bpblu]

I am well aware that art may not determine the movepool, but it seems somewhat counter-productive to give a pokemon moves that are completely out of character.

I stopped reading right there. Art does not matter when it comes to movepool... we can give this thing whatever we wish that seems competitively viable.

That said, I think I'm all for the Overheat/Hydro Pump set that's been mentioned a few times. Flamethrower/Fire Blast I think won't be too much to put on this guy... I could be wrong though. While Hydro Pump does give our dragon a way to hurt Heatran severly, it's accuracy is off-putting. A decent trade-off, methinks. Surf might be a little too much, though given its perfect accuracy.

 

[cyberzero]

Do not bring up flavor vs. competitive arguments.

This is getting extremely off-topic. If it wasn't for the amount of publicity CAP gets for art and flavor, it would not be necessary and we would gladly take your advice. Unfortunately, there are no set laws in the world of Pokemon and we would like to keep it that way. Art does not govern what moves a Pokemon would seem to get and you cannot make sense of stats or movepool with art. Of course, there are circumstances that do make sense, but this is a competitive Pokemon project. If we feel that the competitive value of ThunderPunch is more than that of Thunder Fang, we will allow the first one no matter what the art is, as we showed in the previous CAP project. Please do not bring this up again as it has been established countless times that, despite flavor being important, it does not affect competitive aspects.

As such, we do not disallow moves because a Pokemon "seems" like it would not be able to use it, or vice versa. Please base your suggestions on how this would be able to be an effective Pokemon in OU, but remember to check on the Counter's Discussion in order to see what to avoid suggesting. Scoring super effective hits on those suggested counters would defeat the purpose of deciding on them as counters.

Secondly - this is for attacking moves only. A supporting move discussion will open shortly, but there have been a few posts that have discussed about the movepool as a whole. This can lead to post deletions and possibly and infraction.

 

[Pyromanic]

I feel that outrage and brick break should be allowed. They would give blissey and t-tar a little pause before switching in. Kinda like switching a magnazone into a CBscizor, you never know if they might have superpower and use it.

 

[Gooey Kablooie]

I feel that outrage and brick break should be allowed. They would give blissey and t-tar a little pause before switching in. Kinda like switching a magnazone into a CBscizor, you never know if they might have superpower and use it.

Well, realistically those would only be placed on a gimmick DD set, and if you're switching to one of those he's going to be DDing on the switch anyway, I still don't think his Attack stat is high enough for either of them to really fear switching in. That being said I believe they should be allowed, if only for the gimmick DD set.

 

[Gothic Togekiss]

A priority move goes against the concept of this Pokemon since it's supposed to use it's abilities well and both of them rely on getting hit.

Isn't Shield Dust main purpose on any Pokemon is to prevent them from secondary effects? It doesn't need to be hit in order to do it's job so I don't see how having a priority move is bad. The only question right now comes down to if CAP8 really needs a priority move of any type or not.

 

[Ybbob]

There is no reason to give a legendary signature move to a Pokemon that has little reason to use it past the typing. Plus, Spacial Rend, while not great, adds 15 base power and that could be game changing, just restrict it to the normal Dragon Pulse.

Also, why is everyone saying to restrict CAP8 to only Overheat/Hydro Pump. Basically all the major dragons learn Surf, except for maybe Flygon, and all of them learn Flamethrower/Fire Blast except Kingdra(I think) which doesn't have it obviously because it's a Water type. Giving it Surf and Fire Blast/Flamethrower is not a big deal, Steel types were not great checks to this except to resist Dragon, and Heatran is not a main counter either. UnSTAB Surf/Fire Blast don't do that much apart from allowing it to hit a couple possible threats, and if this gets Calm Mind, then most sets involving a stat-up move will only use one of the two moves since CAP8 will most likely use it's two STABs on all it's sets. All Water/Fire moves should be allowed, there is no reason otherwise.

Focus Blast/Aura Sphere should be controversial, considering how they break TTar which is otherwise a great hard counter vs. CAP8. They don't do all that much vs. Blissey/Snorlax, but that's where Focus Punch comes in. As I said before, Focus Punch eats up a valuble moveset to hit 2 Pokemon, and it would be a limiting factor to CAP8, so it should also be controversial. Explosion should be disallowed, as it would shred Blissey and Snorlax and is too versatile of a back-up move to be given to CAP8. Volt Tackle/Outrage should be allowed as most dragons get Outrage and a lot of Electric types get Volt Tackle, and they are not great moves for CAP8 in any way regardless. For priority, Vacumn Wave is a great option as is a special Electric priority move, but only with 40 BP not 80.