CAP 8 CAP 8 - Part 13a - Non-Attacking Moves Discussion

[Petope]

Allowed: I think that Power Trick would help CAP8 in being more versitile. By being able to switch attack and defence it could actually use moves like Volt takle and Outrage but at the prize of being more fragile. This move is really rare and I've only seen useage on it on a Shuckle. CAP8 is a pokemon that I think really could benefit from having this move, as it could in one turn change from Bulky Special attacker to a pretty good mixed attacker.

I think we should put Transform in Unallowed. This move goes aginst this CAPs concept by changing the whole pokémon (abilities included) to another one. I don't think it would suit well, and with CAP8s high HP it could be pretty dangerous if it switch in to a Uxie or Shuckle or maybe a Dusknoir, but I know they aren't that common. I haven't seen any good arguments for it (exept flavor) so I can't see the great use of it, besides as a gimmicky move.

 

[Veedrock]

Nice reasoning there BlueLime.

Anyways, I'll tackle moves one at a time if I must. Let's lay out some numbers rather than opinions. First on the agenda: Light Screen. Obviously when CAP8's defenses were spiked it was made clear that Special Attacks were going to be the best option of attack. This was solidified when Static won the secondary ability poll which punishes Physical hitters further. Now why in the world would we want this beast to have access to it and become next to impossible to hit? Some calcs:

[B]Latias[/B]:
108 Dragon Pulse vs. 0/0 CAP8 (+LS): 43.70% - 52.10% (can be recovered)
252 Dragon Pulse vs. 0/0 CAP8 (+LS): 49.30% - 58.82%
108 Draco Meteor vs. 0/0 CAP8 (+LS): 76.19% - 90.76%
252 Draco Meteor vs. 0/0 CAP8 (+LS): 67.79% - 80.67%
 
108 Dragon Pulse vs. 252/0 CAP8 (+LS): 37.14% - 44.29% 
252 Dragon Pulse vs. 252/0 CAP8 (+LS): 41.90% - 50.00% 
108 Drago Meteor vs. 252/0 CAP8 (+LS): 57.62% - 68.57%
252 Drago Meteor vs. 252/0 CAP8 (+LS): 64.76% - 77.14%
 
Conclusion: All can be stalled with recovery except Max Draco Meteor (leaves Latias crippled), and Dragon Pulse vs. 0/0 CAP8 (who will run that?).
 
 
[B]Heatran[/B]:
252 Earth Power vs. 0/0 CAP8 (+LS): 37.54% - 44.26%
252 Earth Power vs. 252/0 CAP8 (+LS): 31.90% - 37.62%
 
Conclusion: Stalled and beaten indefinately

Actually I'd run more calcs, but nearly everything else will do less damage. Coupled with with Recovery of some sort (which seems popular), Light Screen makes CAP8 overwhelming. A set like Light Screen/Recover/Roar/filler(refresh) will be very difficult to overcome and pushes it over the edge (though that's not the only set that can use it). In fact these calcs are why I'm against (nearly) all forms of special defense raising, but we'll just stick with Light Screen for now. We need a be able to handle CAP8, giving it Special Defense buffs makes this task even more difficult. With Static and monstrous Defense/HP, getting physical with CAP8 is bad news, so let's not close off both doors here. Light Screen is just the same as Amnesia.

Light Screen for unallowed.

(Actually this post is a lot less full than I'd planned, but I think I got the point across)

 

[Ybbob]

Nice reasoning, Veedrock, I think you covered the main points of why Light Screen should be disallowed. Reflect should be unallowed because it makes CB TTar EQ do only around 25-30% damage, CB/DD Outrage from Mence only around 60%, so basically CAP8 becomes invincible to anything bar Explosion. Cosmic Power should be controversial and voted on, because even if it'll make CAP8 a beast, it isn't as powerful as dual screen on CAP8.

 

[VKCA]

Hail and Sandstorm for unallowed. Both are completely useless on CAP8, doing more harm then good. They most certainly should not be on CAP8 because of "flavour".
I agree with Veedrock, light screen should be unallowed. This thing would become nearly impossible to get passed with any form of offense. reflect for unallowed, giving it reflect would be overkill with those monstrous defenses.

 

[Gooey Kablooie]

Taunt
Should be moved in to Allowed, as this move provides great potential for any lead sets and provides great support for allowing CaP 8 to come out and stop opponent set-up strategies, while coupled with it's great physical bulk allows it to be a great competitive and non-broken move.

Both Light Screen and Reflect
Should be moved into allowed to create a more viable support role. A good example of this role is seen in Starmie who has good typing together with great Special Attack and Speed stats allowing it to be a great special sweeper. However, when given Light Screen/Reflect opens up the potential for a great supporting role, which can be very important in team building and the over-all usefulness of a poke.
I don't believe Light Screen is too much for this CaP especially when considering any other poke can set-up a Light Screen for it, it's not really as broken or impenetrable as everyone seems to claim it is.

As for healing I believe the options of either Synthesis, Moonlight, and Morning Sun should be placed in allowed (Pulling for the latter two based on flavor, as they all have the same effect). This allows CaP8 the option of reliable healing that isn't too good for this CaP, like Slack-Off or Recover which should be moved to unallowed. As they can be hindered through often used weather such as Sandstorm, although can be supported through the use of other weather users for the increased 2/3 health regeneration. Which I believe opens more team building options for this CaP as well as keeping it balanced.

As for stat upping moves I believe Dragon Dance, Cosmic Power, and Calm Mind should be all placed under allowed. Dragon Dance allows the use of a more physical attack set of this CaP as well as providing Speed that this CaP may require. Cosmic Power can remain very useful when provided a recovery move (such as the already suggested Synthesis, Monnlight, and Morning Sun) that will this CaP with it's great tanking potential. I believe for the more offensive sets Calm Mind is a great way to go as it adds to CaP 8's great Special attack stat while helping CaP 8 with it's poor Special Defensive stat, which helps it as a special sweeper. Also, Calm Mind is balanced IMO in that it doesn't raise Speed like Dragon Dance and many counters may be using it's average speed as a tool to counter it. I also wanted to adress people claiming any of these stat upping moves as "broken" or anything along those lines. Frankly, Salamence and Gyarados are great examples of using stat up moves to help them and they surely aren't broken and CaP 8 can be stopped in the exact same way as those two. Especially as things like Hippowdon can come in and force a switch or Roar you away. And again, if you're not ready for a stat upping CaP 8 you would already be failing against a large chunk of the current metagame (again through through the likes of DD Mence, Gyarados, or Calm Mind Latias or Suicune for example).

 

[Infiltrator]

I'm going to say no to Agility. As Aerodactly Legend said Dragon Dance is enough.

I support Dragon Dance. I think Dragon Dance should be the one stat boosting move on this.

No stat boosting move is also a good option. Dragon Dance would be great for a mixed set, as it could handle the pesky SkarmBliss Combo with ease and other defensive walls.

Taunt should be moved to allowed list. Taunt is great for stopping Skarmory dead in its tracks from setting up Stealth Rock/ Spikes. As it only gives Skarm one option to use and that is Brave Bird/Drill Peck, then CAP8 could finish off with an electric/fire attack.

This will also be able to terminate moves like Will-O-Wisp, Toxic, and Thunder Wave which are mostly found on Rotom - A and Blissey.

Stun Spore should be allowed. I really like Stun Spore this will be able to hit ground types like the pesky Fidgits, it will also hit volt absorbers as Billymills said.


I support Rain Dance. I support Rain Dance mostly flavor-wise. CAP8 in Rain could be a GREAT Rain Dance sweeper, as having the Thunder boost.

 

[Deck Knight]

Light Screen should be allowed. It is a standard move for all Electric pokemon, no exceptions. Furthermore it makes its counters work for a KO, rather than having CAP8 perpertually forced out every time Latias comes in. I'd much rather move Slack Off to unallowed than ditch Light Screen.

Furthermore the example presented is Latias, and Dragon vs. Dragon is a double-edged sword. This can't come in and set up a Light Screen, nor should Latias ever switch into it for fear of either paralysis or Draco Meteor.

If you're running Light Screen and Slack Off, by definition you're running a support set. If you've maxed SA and have Dragon Pulse and Thunderbolt, then you are safely walled by Tyranitar, Steelix, Blissey, and Regice. Discharge would let you paralyze but you'd suffer a serious power deficiency. Light Screen eventually ends and most of your opponents will be faster. You cannot stall a 3HKO indefinitely, once you attack you'll be down 60-odd percent, and be forced to recover. one CH and you're toast. I suppose one can argue in that instance the best set would be Light Screen/Slack Off/Charge Beam/Dragon Pulse., but you're still relying on weak attacks to boost your SA, and if you don't get the SA boost you've dealt pitiful damage in return. It also doesn't work against Ground types. Hippowdon should easily destroy any such set.

 

[Zepar]

Fake Tears/Metal Sound/Calm mind is too much of a threat. Magnezone is the only Pokemon in OU to resist the two. You can easily beat a Blissey if it is Calm 0/176 and you don't even need a Modest nature. It would be a much better Jirachi with any of those. I can't say much more but I do have two important calcs for each move:

6+ Neutral Nature Thunderbolt vs Calm 0/176 Blissey 52.53%-61.90%

Neutral nature Thunderbolt vs 6- Calm 0/176 Blissey 52.69% - 62.21%

6+ Neutral Nature Thunderbolt vs Careful Max/Max Magnezone

Neutral Nature Thunderbolt vs Careful Max/Max Magnezone 62.79% - 74.13%

Clearly a force to be reconed with.

 

[Naxte]

The thing about Light Screen is that EVERY electric types has gotten it, so it should be Allowed. Not reflect though.

Not true; Lanturn doesn't get it and I think there are a few others, so there is precedent for Electric-types not getting it (and even if there wasn't, we're not bound by what Game Freak has done, so we can exclude it if we think it need to be done, especially with things like Regigias lacking moves that practically all other Pokemon have as precent, for that same reason (though Game Freak went overkill with Regigigas, it still serves as an example)). Personally, Veedrocks's calcs also have me convinced, so I also feel that Light Screen should be Unallowed, or at the very least Controversial.

 

[Ybbob]

Eh, I guess Light Screen is required then, no discussion. Reflect is unneccesary and should be unallowed. Swords Dance should be allowed because there are much better Swords Dancers and DDers out there, and so it doesn't pose a big threat.

 

[Aerodactyl Legend]

Ok....since when was Light Screen ever a required move? I know many Electrics get it, but even though not all of them do, we can't equate the move to stuff like Sunny Day/Rain Dance, Toxic, Return/Frustration...

 

[Deck Knight]

Not true; Lanturn doesn't get it and I think there are a few others, so there is precedent for Electric-types not getting it (and even if there wasn't, we're not bound by what Game Freak has done, so we can exclude it if we think it need to be done, especially with things like Regigias lacking moves that practically all other Pokemon have as precent, for that same reason (though Game Freak went overkill with Regigigas, it still serves as an example)). Personally, Veedrocks's calcs also have me convinced, so I also feel that Light Screen should be Unallowed, or at the very least Controversial.

Lanturn is the sole exception and it gets Amnesia to boot. Mostly its the Part Water typing that seems to rob him of standard moves like Magnet Rise and Light Screen, but you don't make decisions based on exceptions.

Veedrocks calcs fail to consider that Light Screen is not an indefinite attack, one of his attackers has no business switching in (Latias), and the other can still grind past because the most logical moves for such a set are ineffective.

Ex:

252 Earth Power vs. 0/0 CAP8 (+LS): 37.54% - 44.26%

Turn 1:

Heatran switches in
CAP8 uses Light Screen.

Heatran uses Earth Power: (CAP8: 62%)
CAP8 uses Thunderbolt (Max SA+ does 45-54% to 0/0 Heatran): Heatran: 48% (+6 = 54% after Leftovers) In short

Now, two scenarios: Heatran has Leftovers, or Heatran has Choice Scarf. If Heatran has Leftovers, Heatran cannot lose, If Choice Scarf, CAP8 is left at 25%.

Heatran uses Earth Power: (CAP8: 25%)
CAP8 uses Thunderbolt: (Heatran: 1%)

Or: Heatran uses Earth Power: (CAP8: 25%)
CAP8 uses Slack Off (CAP8: 75%)

CAP8 can attempt to stall, but basically once it has to put up another Light Screen the show is over. A critical hit anywhere along will seal its fate? Stall indefinitely? Not even in a Best-case scenario.

 

[petrie911]

Hail and Sandstorm for unallowed. Both are completely useless on CAP8, doing more harm then good. They most certainly should not be on CAP8 because of "flavour".

If they are useless, people won't use them, and thus they do no harm. There is no reason to disallow useless flavor moves, especially ones that are TM moves.

 

[Veedrock]

Ok....since when was Light Screen ever a required move?

That sums it up. "Every electric gets it" is completely flavor based.

I never tried to pretend Light Screen indefinite. My calcs were just numbers, not scenarios. In an imperfect world it won't always work out, I'm quite aware of that. I still consider it a large issue though. However, I'm willing to compromise on Light Screen vs. Instant recovery, having one or the other but not both. It's not near as much a problem then. Still against Amnesia because it can stack quickly, though I'd be okay with Charge (which is allowed already?).

Agreeing that since Sandstorm and Hail are TMs, no harm in allowing them. Flavor-wise Hail seems to really fit. Oh, and Metal Burst isn't considered an attacking move? Strange. Anyways, I'll cover soome more things later.

 

[Gothic Togekiss]

I rather have Slack Off over Light Screen myself so I say Slack Off for allowed and Light Screen unallowed. I really don't see how having Slack Off could potentially make CAP8 broken in anyway.

Small question: could CAP8 outstall a Heatran or some other special attacker using Calm Mind/Slack Off?

 

[Tacho]

Calm mind = Unallowed

are you kidding me? way too much bulk already, plus it has full coverage dual stabs. too good for this guy

 

[Deck Knight]

That sums it up. "Every electric gets it" is completely flavor based.

I never tried to pretend Light Screen indefinite. My calcs were just numbers, not scenarios.

Mere Calculations are worthless. Like much of the newer players in CAP, there needs to be more study and thought put into statements. Every movement in Pokemon is part of a scenario. We had people mistaking checks and counters because they thought coming in on an immunity made you a counter, which is clearly not the case. A similar error was made regarding a 3HKO on Revenankh. In a real battle you would not SPAM Thunderbolt of it only did 36%, you would use it twice to get Rev down to low HP, and hit it with Draco Meteor to finish it off rather than risk it ShedResting again.

Why would it be flavor based? Is there any particularly Uber Electric pokemon? They are all known to have Light Screen (bar Lanturn) and yet it has never made an Electric pokemon broken, nor an impervious special wall. Zapdos who is generally considered bulky and has reliable Recovery, and has higher BST is still not made Uber, despite the fact it can essentially nullify Ice Beam and stall out its other major offensive threat, Stone Edge. This might be physically bulkier than Zapdos but it also has more exploitable physical weaknesses.

As far as I'm concerned if we want to be making Pokemon we should stick to canonical trends unless absolutely necessary for balance reasons. Light Screen has solid competitive reasons for why it is useful but not broken, the fact it is standard and to be expected on Electric pokemon only solidifies it in my view. This is not Create-a-Fanthing, we should at least respect the originals. In fact this is the entire purpose behind my new post in the movepool thread. Because we have yet to respect what the designers put into pokemon we've been complaining about list posts. Well, maybe if we actually did some research and did some trend spotting, we would actually have something to discuss rather than a completely blank slate in every Moves Discussion thread. "Here is a completely blank canvass. Discuss. Oh, and don't do too many moves at a time dearies."

Fortunately I've already done that trendspotting work. Hopefully we can implement this and it will spare us off-topic posts in the future.

 

[Aerodactyl Legend]

As far as I'm concerned if we want to be making Pokemon we should stick to canonical trends unless absolutely necessary for balance reasons. Light Screen has solid competitive reasons for why it is useful but not broken, the fact it is standard and to be expected on Electric pokemon only solidifies it in my view. This is not Create-a-Fanthing, we should at least respect the originals. In fact this is the entire purpose behind my new post in the movepool thread. Because we have yet to respect what the designers put into pokemon we've been complaining about list posts. Well, maybe if we actually did some research and did some trend spotting, we would actually have something to discuss rather than a completely blank slate in every Moves Discussion thread. "Here is a completely blank canvass. Discuss. Oh, and don't do too many moves at a time dearies."

That was a mouthful. You're sorta sayin we should "get back to the basics," right? Try to fathom questions like, "So what were the makers thinking when they made things the way they were" and stuff like that to get a better understanding of the deepness of the game itself. Follow in their footsteps so we really know some of these concepts as part of creating an original product. Get into details later, first compile all the basics that we know about other Pokemon sharing the same characteristics.

If that is what you're saying, I agree. There must have been a reason why they gave some groups a certain characteristic, even if it's the most basic notion.

That's why flavor is, quite honestly, a big part about creating a new concept. It shows how well we know the game and can follow the creator's processes. It's just that flavor topics just need to brought up at the right time, after we figure out what we need the concept to do for us.

However, in regards to the lists people post up here without an explanation behind their decisions, I still think that some sort of reasoning should be present. A constant flow of yes/no lists of the same thing will just oblige "newcomers" to the thread assume the same thing because "everyone else is thinking the same way."

Hopefully, I didn't misinterpret what you said. Just wanted to share my view about the topic.

Back to Light Screen, (in case anyone didn't catch on) I actually want it to be allowed, but I think it shouldn't be considered as one of the "[virtually] every evolution gets this" moves is all.

 

[Ybbob]

Flamethrower, Fire Blast, Earthquake
And yet we're voting on these...

Light Screen should be allowed, it isn't too broken and isn't nearly as good as say Amnesia or Acid Armor.

 

[ParadOxymoron]

That's why flavor is, quite honestly, a big part about creating a new concept. It shows how well we know the game and can follow the creator's processes. It's just that flavor topics just need to brought up at the right time, after we figure out what we need the concept to do for us.

Agreed. So fully. Flavor can get in the way, but the notion that it can never help is incorrect if it leads us to a solider, more cohesive Pokemon in the end.

 

[Fuzznip]

I don't think anyone has mentioned Stockpile, Swallow, and Spit Up.

These moves should be allowed. Not only do they make sense on such Pokemon, but they are probably the least broken boosting moves and recovery moves it can have. It would be almost identical the current Stockpile Hippowdon.

 

[pkmn-taicho321]

Calm Mind for Allowed

+2 Neural Nature max SpAtk Cap vs Tyranitar w/ 200 HP Evs and Sand Storm

Surf
63.43%-75.19%

Vacuum Wave
54.22%-64.45%

Tyranitar then 2HKOs with Earthquake

Latias cam Calm Mind alongside CAP8 and Recover off Draco Meteors

Turn one: Latias is at +1 being faster than CAP8
Latias takes 71.60%-85.21%
Turn two: Latias Recovers (78.40%-64.79% remaining)
Latias Takes 35.50%-42.60%

So unless CAP8 is going to sit around Calm Minding to catch up Latias can survive and attack back with Dragon Pulse

Dragon Pulse
71.90%-84.76%

 

[Coram_Boy]

DK, what exactly are you trying to say? The first post is saying, these are the calculations that I'm giving you, without factoring things like stealth rock, any ev's in hp/sp. defence, our CaPmon getting a crit (for example). But that doesn't matter because you say that they don't matter (calcs mean nothing). so that discards the first paragraph of your second post - all that says is that we can't predict anything. the second two paragraphs say very little, other than Light screen is not broken. You say that Zapdos outstalls stonedge - despite it doing from 85-101% damage to it without a crit from a mamoswine/heracross, and ohkoing from a rhyperior/rampardos.
Flavor should not be a factor in choosing our CaP. Why not start out with the list of moves which would normally be allowed immediately, look at that list, and then decide if any of the moves on that list should be removed due to making our CaP too powerful. That's why I think that Lightscreen should be put into Controversial. Incidentally, I don't think that not putting Light Screen on an electric type pokemon would really be a problem. I seriously doubt that 'Light Screen has to be on all electrics' is really a huge thought that passes through game developer's minds. And saying 'all electrics apart from these ones' is a bad way to justify something - it only takes one exception to disprove a rule. At the end of the day, though, what would cinch this debate is playtesting, but that doesn't happen in cap. Still, if it makes our cap broken, then we can just delete the move from its entry, right?

 

[Gooey Kablooie]

DK, what exactly are you trying to say? The first post is saying, these are the calculations that I'm giving you, without factoring things like stealth rock, any ev's in hp/sp. defence, our CaPmon getting a crit (for example). But that doesn't matter because you say that they don't matter (calcs mean nothing). so that discards the first paragraph of your second post - all that says is that we can't predict anything. the second two paragraphs say very little, other than Light screen is not broken. You say that Zapdos outstalls stonedge - despite it doing from 85-101% damage to it without a crit from a mamoswine/heracross, and ohkoing from a rhyperior/rampardos.
Flavor should not be a factor in choosing our CaP. Why not start out with the list of moves which would normally be allowed immediately, look at that list, and then decide if any of the moves on that list should be removed due to making our CaP too powerful. That's why I think that Lightscreen should be put into Controversial. Incidentally, I don't think that not putting Light Screen on an electric type pokemon would really be a problem. I seriously doubt that 'Light Screen has to be on all electrics' is really a huge thought that passes through game developer's minds. And saying 'all electrics apart from these ones' is a bad way to justify something - it only takes one exception to disprove a rule. At the end of the day, though, what would cinch this debate is playtesting, but that doesn't happen in cap. Still, if it makes our cap broken, then we can just delete the move from its entry, right?

I hate to say this, but you provided no actual reasoning as to why you believe Light Screen should be placed in controversial. All you did there was try to disprove and misquote Deck Knight and at the end of it said "Light Screen should be put into controversial". Even when you argue that DK has contradicted himself, you've provided none of your own evidence as to why Light Screen should be placed in Controversial, all you said was that DK confused you and you don't believe flavor is a factor. I would at least try backing up my argument with some proof, rather than trying to disprove others.

 

[Fuzznip]

Calm Mind for Allowed

+2 Neural Nature max SpAtk Cap vs Tyranitar w/ 200 HP Evs and Sand Storm

Surf
63.43%-75.19%

Vacuum Wave
54.22%-64.45%

Tyranitar then 2HKOs with Earthquake

Latias cam Calm Mind alongside CAP8 and Recover off Draco Meteors

Turn one: Latias is at +1 being faster than CAP8
Latias takes 71.60%-85.21%
Turn two: Latias Recovers (78.40%-64.79% remaining)
Latias Takes 35.50%-42.60%

So unless CAP8 is going to sit around Calm Minding to catch up Latias can survive and attack back with Dragon Pulse

Dragon Pulse
71.90%-84.76%

CAP8 is faster than Tyranitar, so it can't kill it without getting a critical hit. This would be almost exactly the same as SubCM Jirachi. With Calm Mind, it can tank on both sides off of a respectable Special Attack stat that also gets increased. Not to mention that it could use Draco Meteor a lot of times, since it can boost it's Special Attack again. Imagine, a SubCM set with Draco Meteor and Thunderbolt/Flamthrower whatever. That would be pretty dam scary.