CAP 8 CAP 8 - Part 5c - Secondary Ability Poll 2

[Infiltrator]

Voted No Secondary Ability. I see no point in CAP8 getting a secondary ability honestly. As Fuzznip mentioned Discharge is practically the same thing as static except it does damage to the opponent to paralyze and not the other way around.

Trace is somewhat useless here, Flash Fire, Volt Absorb and Water Absorb are the only abilities I see CAP8 abusing Trace, but it already resists those attacks with ease. Copying intimidate may be good but Latias's Draco Meteor can still tear it to shreds.

 

[Veedrock]

Vote for Trace because Trace makes sense since it replicates any ability barring Arceus' ability, to essentially make more use of all neglected abilities.

This doesn't make sense at all. These abilities are neglected...you're never going to encounter them to trace them.

EDIT: Hustle was doing so well, what happened?

 

[The_Bassoonist]

To those of you considering to vote No Secondry ability:

If your fear is that CAP 8 will end up with one ability overshadowing the other, or that the abilities will be so extremely opposite that we end up spreading the movepool too far, I have a solution for you: Go with Marvel Scale. It's similar enough with Shield Dust to employ similar strategies of play and as such allowing the movepool to be more concentrated. And just the fact that CAP 8 can possibly have either ability will discourage the opponent from using attacks that either directly or indirectly cause Status.

So in this case, having two abilities will be a benefit to CAP 8 rather than a liability. So go for Marvel Scale if you're unsure

 

[ferron]

how about we propaganda in the discussion thread...you know, the place that was made for it?

 

[Ellington]

To fit the spirit of the theme, I voted for No secondary ability. For the people saying its only purpose is anti hax (as if that isn't good enough) it also negates some nasty secure effects, like Dynamic Punch confusion.

Seriously, trace is not neglected at all. As a matter of fact, it makes an otherwise inferior pokémon viable in the OU environment.

 

[zarator]

Voting No secondary ability

If someone of you know something about my ideas (probably none, but w/e), you should know Trace is one if not the ability I like the most in the game. But I think that, even if you do not like the concept, you should respect it. As I said, the concept revolves around abusing a neglected ability to its fullest. There's no way another ability can help this.

Just to take this point more in-depht, this is the same problem we have when we discuss the movepool. Some people (I can bet pretty much the likes of those who hate NSA winning) want the CAP to have the most varied options available, even if the movepool (like pretty much every other step we undertake besides art) should be made only to help the Pokémon to fulfill the best its role. I clearly remember of when we gave the Screens and Spikes to Syclant in the past, and it amazes me how nowadays the idea of - if you like it - "optimize" the movepool (and the entire CAP steps, for that matter) is basically forgotten.

Sorry for the long post. May the best win the poll.

 

[ferron]

http://www.smogon.com/forums/announcement.php?f=66&a=83

I felt that my post remained within the guidelines listed there. If I'm mistaken, I offer my humblest apologies and a MOD can remove it.

it wasn't against you, it was against those people that are using either flawed logic or are just repeating things already stated in the other threads (discussion and assestment specifically).

 

[RandyBerri]

Voting No secondary ability

If someone of you know something about my ideas (probably none, but w/e), you should know Trace is one if not the ability I like the most in the game. But I think that, even if you do not like the concept, you should respect it. As I said, the concept revolves around abusing a neglected ability to its fullest. There's no way another ability can help this.

Actually the concept is not to make a pokemon revolve around one neglected ability and make the best out of it, none of the steps so far have ever considered to take special precausion to make sure CAP 8 will make the best out of Shield Dust.
The concept is all about giving neglected abilities to a poke which will see more play than those who already have it. Just posting the concept from the OP again to make this more noticeable.

Name: Neglected Ability

Description: This pokemon will have an ability [or two] that is currently undervalued (but possibly very helpful) in the metagame but isn't used because the other pokemon with this ability don't have the stats or movepool to make it work.

EDIT: So if you like Trace, then you should vote for it seeing as it actually do correlate with the concept

 

[Gir!]

Voted No Secondary Ability once again. Trace seemed like a good option, but, as stated, the only real abilities that you want to trace are resisted (one of the 4x) or simply useless(Intimidate wont help with Salamence´s outrage or Draco Meteor). Marvel Scales seems a bnit "meh" to me, and why using static if you can use discharge?.

 

[The_Bassoonist]

it wasn't against you, it was against those people that are using either flawed logic or are just repeating things already stated in the other threads (discussion and assestment specifically).

Your post came immediately after mine and upon reading it it made me think that you found my post to be propagandic (is that a word?). I just wanted to defend my cause was all. Simple missunderstanding. Sorry

 

[zarator]

Actually the concept is not to make a pokemon revolve around one neglected ability and make the best out of it, none of the steps so far have ever considered to take special precausion to make sure CAP 8 will make the best out of Shield Dust.
The concept is all about giving neglected abilities to a poke which will see more play than those who already have it. Just posting the concept from the OP again to make this more noticeable.

And how can CAP8 "make the best out of Shield Dust" if we don't support the ability through proper stats and movepool? (even if I will admit it - Shield Dust is maybe one of the worst choices when it comes to an ability you can build a Pokémon around, despite not being a bad ability at all)

EDIT: So if you like Trace, then you should vote for it seeing as it actually do correlate with the concept

I'd do it, if Trace could not overshadow Shield Dust. But it would, and we know it. They both fit on similar roles (tank/defensive), with the only difference being Trace is simply better most of the time. And we would end up with Shield Dust being neglected once again. I have no doubt Trace deserves - and will have - its chance in CAP, but I don't feel this is the right time.

 

[RandyBerri]

And how can CAP8 "make the best out of Shield Dust" if we don't support the ability through proper stats and movepool? (even if I will admit it - Shield Dust is maybe one of the worst choices when it comes to an ability you can build a Pokémon around, despite not being a bad ability at all)

That's exactly it. We are not supposed to make the best out of Shield Dust. This is a general misconception many NSA voters seem to have, that we are supposed to make due with one ability. But as Elevator Music said in his concept, we can have two abilities. We are only supposed to put a neglected ability on a poke who will se more use than the pokes who have already got it.

About secondary ability outshadowing the primary, I think Deck Knight put it better than I can:

Do not worry about Shield Dust, our primary ability being overshadowed. Remember when everyone said Technician was a useless and frivolous aside on Stratagem? It turned out that Tech Stratagem was a powerful force that lended great strength to Stratagem's abilities.

Levitate is still used on Stratagem for obvious reasons, but it was not the ubiquitous and only choice among users.

Giving an additional ability allows us to learn far more about the pokemon than leaving it at one. Aren't we proving either way that these abilities were neglected solely because their original possessors lacked the stats or typing to use them?

 

[Objection]

I suspect the perceived fear is that Shield Dust is such a crappy ability that any ability that wouldn't overshadow it is in itself too crappy to warrant use in the first place.

I don't think that's the case with Marvel Scale or Rough Skin though.

 

[Darkflagrance]

Frankly, at this point, the most competitive reasoning one can offer in support of an ability is that in the showdown with Shield Dust it would win. To have more than one ability on the pokemon easily achieves the goal of exploiting underused abilities more than to have just one.

I voted Static because I don't think a stat spread that can abuse Hustle will win, Trace seems useless other than for Intimidate, and Marvel Scale is just plain losing in the poll. Static is the most competitive of the remaining contenders.

 

[zarator]

That's exactly it. We are not supposed to make the best out of Shield Dust. This is a general misconception many NSA voters seem to have, that we are supposed to make due with one ability. But as Elevator Music said in his concept, we can have two abilities. We are only supposed to put a neglected ability on a poke who will se more use than the pokes who have already got it.

About secondary ability outshadowing the primary, I think Deck Knight put it better than I can

Stratagem was a completely different case. I was around when Stratagem was being created, and if you have read the posts, you would have seen how I was a strong supporter of Technician - and one of the very few who defended the viability of Technician even if Strata had got the elemental beams - but this is a completely different case. Technician and Levitate serve 2 different style of sweeping and support different moves (Ap, Giga Drain, Vacuum Wave and the HP versus Paleo Wave and the elemental beams). They don't overshadow each other.

What I'm against is choosing a secondary ability (like Trace) which could overshadow completely Shield Dust. I for one would never run the latter if I could choose the former.

 

[RandyBerri]

I see your point now, while I do not agree with it as I personally think that no ability can completely overshadow Shield Dust. I feel that it is the best ability for CAP 8 seeing as it counters all Jirachi and most Togekiss while being a reliable supporter.
Anyway abilities like Hustle cannot overshadow it as they would be used in different situations, but if you did not like any other ability than Trace then I understand your choice, even if I don't agree with it.

 

[Not Scicky]

What I'm against is choosing a secondary ability (like Trace) which could overshadow completely Shield Dust. I for one would never run the latter if I could choose the former.

People are either voting against trace because they think it's bad (This is understandable) or because it's going to overshadow shield dust...

and why would it overshadow shield dust? Because it's a better option then shield dust...

I fail to see how choosing the better ability is a bad idea =/

 

[The_Bassoonist]

Some people argue that if Shield Dust gets overshadowed by ability x, it'll fall back to being neglected again, thus failing the point of the concept of CAP 8.

 

[Not Scicky]

If they don't want to fail the concept, then they can just use shield dust instead of trace, also...

This pokemon will have an ability [or two] that is currently undervalued (but possibly very helpful) in the metagame but isn't used because the other pokemon with this ability don't have the stats or movepool to make it work.

It actually never says we have to make the ability non-neglected, it just says that it will have an ability that isn't used as much as it should be, another thing, even if shield dust remains neglected, we would've increased usage in trace. That's still success in my opinion =/

(and for people saying that you wouldn't want to trace the dragons intimidates, DK/TA's might not, but plus's can switch into an LOMences Outrage and outrun after the intimidate)

 

[Gothic Togekiss]

(and for people saying that you wouldn't want to trace the dragons intimidates, DK/TA's might not, but plus's can switch into an LOMences Outrage and outrun after the intimidate)

252 HP / 0 Def Plusmon switching into a Sala's Outrage (factoring Intimidate): 105.46% - 124.59%

252/252 HP/Def version of Plusmon: 75.41% - 89.07%

 

[beej]

I went for Static again, as it's one of the most aggravating and powerful abilities around and it's completely screwed by the Pokemon it's on. Considering the great resists this thing has, it has so many opportunities to switch into attacks it doesn't care about and potentially punish things with paralysis.

 

[Umbreon Dan]

I was going to wait until the Stat Spread poll was over, but the spread by Deck and tennis is well ahead so I might as well vote now.

If Plus's spread was doing better, I would have voted Trace. Trace gives it far more opportunities to switch in with impunity and then use its good Speed to force opponents out.

However, as DK/tennis's spread is winning, I'm going to vote Static. The bulk of their spread means Trace isn't all that neccessary for switching in. With plenty of opportunities to switch into offensive Pokemon, Static makes perfect sense. Maybe a Static abuser can even do something about the Gliscor -> Metagross thing that's been running rampant.

 

[Darkflagrance]

Some people argue that if Shield Dust gets overshadowed by ability x, it'll fall back to being neglected again, thus failing the point of the concept of CAP 8.

So if a superior neglected ability overshadows Shield Dust, a neglected ability is used by an OU, hence fulfilling the concept. And if Shield Dust is not overshadowed...???

I sure hope no one is actually following that reasoning...

 

[GTS]

I give up. No Secondary Ability.

 

[Gooey Kablooie]

Vote for Static because we may not all find a proper application of shield dust and may find it doesn't work best for our team. Thus, Static offers a nice counterpart, providing chance of paralysis which will be nice on the switch in. Not to mention cornering people and possibly inhibiting them from using a physical move that they may want to use or crippling them in the process. Causing an even higher possibility of switch outs for free set-ups. Sure, the move isn't perfect, earthquake doesn't trigger it...but why the hell would we want it to be taking earthquakes in the first place no matter what the ability?

Edit: Not to mention just by giving this poke Static people are going to have to think long and hard about attacking, Whether this poke is on the field or not and it may even have Shield Dust instead.

and Deck Knight said it well...

Ladies and gentleman, now is the time.

Support Static:

Static adds another dimension to this pokemon. A crippling status for basically anything that uses physical attacks? How much better an offensive ability could you get being able to paralyze and essentially render one of your opponents sweepers useless and expendable? This is especially true of common physical sweepers. Imagine coming in to Metagross Meteor Mash or Gyarados waterfall and paralyzing them, and then using Magnet Rise to ruin their best option of attack, Earthquake. They are forced to switch out, allowing you a chance to blast something with a powerful STAB attack.

UU players can attest to the havoc Static has caused their teams. Static is a powerful ability that will be able to hold its own weight with minimal drawbacks.

So I must reiterate: Static for great justice.

To counter:

I'd be fine with Trace or Static, but I'm rooting for Trace as it is...

Choiced Flygons earthquakes are wasted, heatrans flash fires are nullified, jolteon and vaporeon fear the use of their own STAB moves, salamence is weakened without CAP8 lifting a finger...

I love it ;_;

(Actually I'm pretty much fine with any of these as long as it's not marvel scale :l)

Firstly, choiced flygons using EQ will want to switch (although if they've scouted your team and have knowledge of CaP 8 being there you may get an unhappy surprise, unless of course he is spamming EQ and in that case any flying or levitate poke will perform the same task), that is true, but life orbers will smack you around with their STAB Outrages. Heatran will use Earthpower on you. I can't really see Jolteon staying in but they do often carry HP Ice. Vaporeon also packing ice beam, not to mention it wouldn't really want to stay in anyway. And unless we plan on outspeeding a Salamence that has taken SR damage or through some miraculous feat we simply will not beat it (and that is a lot of "if's" if you ask me). Besides, what sane person is switching CaP 8 into a salamence? He'll still smack CaP 8 around regardless.

No Secondary Ability.

I honestly don't think we need this CAP to have another ability.

I don't like Static because Discharge is basically the same thing but it actually does damage, and you don't even need to be damaged by an attack.

That's the point you don't have to attack (nor waste a movepool slot on Discharge), you can do anything else and they still get paralyzed. You can set your own stuff up (for example Stealth Rock, Reflect, Light Screen, Magnet Rise, Dragon Dance, or Calm Mind [provided CaP 8 is given those moves]) while they paralyze THEMSELVES. You can even use one of your other attacks, Thunderbolt packs more STAB punch than Discharge and so do the STAB dragon moves and if they hit you with a contact move they have a chance of paralyzing themselves. How is that not freaking awesome? Furthermore, CaP 8 isn't designed to dish out tons of OHKO's, it's going to be taking hits, that's a fact. So, why not further punish them with a little paralysis? Lastly, I reitirate on the excellent possibilities of a switch-in against something CaP 8 can counter. If you switch in on said "poke that CaP 8 counters" and they use a contact move and become paralyzed and have to switch out, there is almost no price to how important that can be late game. The sheer fact of the chance to cripple their pokes just by switching in delights me and now that they're crippled, the late game cleanup/comeback will be that much easier when all they have left is a crippled poke.