CAP 8 CAP 8 - Part 5c - Secondary Ability Poll 3

[cyberzero]

Our Pokemon so far:

Name: Neglected Ability

Description: This pokemon will have an ability [or two] that is currently undervalued (but possibly very helpful) in the metagame but isn't used because the other pokemon with this ability don't have the stats or movepool to make it work.

Type: Electric / Dragon
Style Bias: Somewhat Defensive
Build Bias: Mixed, possibly Special
Main Ability: Shield Dust

We have the option to choose a secondary Ability that will allow us to fulfill the concept, but for this poll, No Secondary Ability is an option.

A number of Neglected Abilities have been decided on, but according to the results of the previous Secondary Ability Poll, we require a second one. The abilities that can be chosen from are:

No Secondary Ability
Trace
Static

Make sure to read through the thread before making a vote. Happy voting!
Discussion is encouraged, as well as a readthrough of this discussion thread. When posting in click poll threads, be sure to follow the following guidelines. Posts that add nothing to the thread are not allowed. There is no reason to broadcast your vote to everyone; this adds nothing to the thread, and if people really wanted to see your vote, they can check the poll themselves. Posts like "I voted for ___ ..." or "I voted for ___ because I ..." are unallowed. Better is "Vote for ___ because ...". These posts must be backed up by competitive reasoning, or else they will be deleted and/or infracted.

 

[Fuzznip]

No Secondary Ability for reasons stated in the other thread.

Static is a no-go for me, as Discharge is basically the same thing except doing damage. It's also competitively viable on this CAP instead of Thunderbolt.

Trace is pointless imo. The only thing this would be good for is switching in on Surf from Vaporeon, Fire Blast from Heatran, Thunderbolt from Jolteon, and Outrage from Salamence. This CAP resists Water, Fire, and Electric-type attacks, so there is no point in having an ability just to nullify the damage even though it's not gonna do much due to the CAP's chosen stat spread. I don't know why would you try to switch in on a Outrage from Salamence since it will still do some hefty damage with Intimidate factored in.

 

[Objection]

Just a quick thing from me: the only reason you should really be voting for No Secondary Ability is if you believe that both Trace and Static are too good for this CAP and/or in comparison to Shield Dust (and I'm pretty sure someone debunked the latter reason). Saying that an ability is pointless is not really a good reason, because if it is pointless, then there's no harm in giving it to the pokemon because people will still use Shield Dust. At least they have the option of another ability this way, which is more than what they will get if NSA is chosen.

 

[Deck Knight]

So the possibly penultimate poll is here.

I've gone over this ad nauseum in the other threads but the argument remains the same:

Static punishes the common scouting strategy. U-Turn activates Static and is legion, especially among Fidgit, Jirachi, and Scizor.

Paralysis cripples everything. I find it amusing to see the same people who argue for Speed Speed Speed in stat spreads turn around and argue that losing it for all practical purposes isn't really a big deal. Cause you know, outspeeding Rhyperior, Hippowdon, Slowbro, Snorlax, Machamp, and any of the other multitude of slow heavy hitters isn't a huge problem when you can smack them with a 60-90 BP move 75% of the time to avoid them hitting you first. And what about weakened walls with reliable recovery moves? They can heal and shrug off the next attack, and come back for more later.

Some of course argue these pokemon aren't common and therefore must be discounted. These people must believe that CAP has a stated goal other than testing the metagame by introducing pokemon with the potential to shift it.

Paralysis is game-changing. I don't think it is broken but others believe even the chance of a slot-free paralysis is worthy enough to throw it out. So how can it be both useless and broken? The fact is it is neither. Flinching strategies rely on speed, offense relies on speed, and Static offers a chance to cripple those pokemon against your entire team rather than just CAP8 with Shield Dust. Thus it offers a different kind of support.

Some have argued that it lacks crucial things other pokemon posess, such as a 50% Recovery move, yet we haven't even decided movepool yet. Others have mentioned the ubiquitousness of Earthquake yet seem to ignore that Magnet Rise is on every single fully evolved electric pokemon except Zapdos, Rotom, and Lanturn. The former of which are already immune to Ground attacks. In other words if these are truly concerns with effectiveness then I hope they will join me in giving CAP8 the tools it needs to exploit the ability fully.

As far as Trace, I fail to see how it is neglected given Porygon2 could be moved to OU in the next OU decision. Most of the pokemon it is used against, Heatran, Gyarados, Salamence, etc either have no business being in on CAP8 or CAP8 has no business switching in on them. While it is cool to occasionally snatch a Natural Cure from Starmie or Blissey, for CAP8's purposes it doesn't add much. The number of pokemon nerfed by their own abilities are few and far between.

It's not necessarily a bad ability, but its too unpredictable and not useful against the pokemon Trace is used by Porygon2 to defeat.

 

[jagged_angel]

That's awful reasoning for Trace! What Levitate pokes commonly use EQ? Only Flygon. That's one pokemon who could just as easily Outrage you.

That shoddy reason aside I do think that Trace is a very powerful Ability but I'm very worried it will overshadow Shield Dust too much. This wouldn't Neccessarily be a bad thing, but defensive electric is almost the perfect typing for Shield Dust so I really want it to be CAP8's main option.

Since I dislike Static intensely (you can read my previous posts if you want extensive reasoning) I'll have to go for NSA.

 

[Ellington]

I'm voting for No Secondary Ability.

I guess Static isn't that bad, but it's just very unnecessary in my opinion. And I don't feel Trace belongs on this pokémon. It's the trump card of the other two otherwise neglected pokémon that have it and I don't think this one should have a secondary ability with such an impact.

 

[Korski]

I voted for Trace, but I know NSA will still win. Does anybody else see the problem here, though? No secondary ability is not an ability, so it's not even in the same category as Trace and Static in terms of voting for something. There is an argument happening here between whether or not CAP 8 should even have a second ability that isn't represented fairly in this poll. Those who say it shouldn't have a secondary ability have only one option to choose from while those who say it should have two. The "wanting a secondary ability" group will split the vote on Trace and Static, even if its a majority opinion, and NSA, the minority, will end up winning.

 

[Deck Knight]

I voted for Trace, but I know NSA will still win. Does anybody else see the problem here, though? No secondary ability is not an ability, so it's not even in the same category as Trace and Static in terms of voting for something. There is an argument happening here between whether or not CAP 8 should even have a second ability that isn't represented fairly in this poll. Those who say it shouldn't have a secondary ability have only one option to choose from while those who say it should have two. The "wanting a secondary ability" group will split the vote on Trace and Static, even if its a majority opinion, and NSA, the minority, will end up winning.

CAP goes only by majority, not plurality. NSA must win 50% + 1 to in order to win it. If it's 48-25-27 Then its between NSA and whichever ability got 27.

NSA didn't win majority last time, so unless a decent portion of the people who voted for Hustle, Rough Skin, or Marvel Scale defect to it, NSA is not guaranteed a lock. The fact we're having this poll is indicative of that, where it was NSA vs. an ability split 5 ways.

 

[jagged_angel]

Others have mentioned the ubiquitousness of Earthquake yet seem to ignore that Magnet Rise is on every single fully evolved electric pokemon except Zapdos, Rotom, and Lanturn.

Raichu?
Jolteon?
Electivire?
Ampharos?
Raikou?
Plusle?
Minun?
Pachirisu?
Luxray?

None of these pokemon have Magnet Rise. In fact aside from the Elec/Steels, only Electrode gets it. Dont assume that this will get Magnet Rise, when you criticise others for assuming this won't get 50% recovery. Talk about hyprocrisy.

The remark about paralysis Crippling everything also is completely ludicrous.
Slow pokemon, pokemon with priority moves, pokemon with natural cure, Limber pokemon, Guts pokemon, Sleep Talkers, the list goes on.

 

[dorkknight23]

DeckKnight's made a very convincing argument, and has influenced my vote accordingly. Since we are looking for an ability (or abilities) that is "currently undervalued (but possibly very helpful) in the metagame but isn't used because the other pokemon with this ability don't have the stats or movepool to make it work." Shield Dust fits this for sure.

Static is helpful on a bulkier pokémon like the one we're designing because it has the potential to actually score more paralysis than any of its contemporaries (the highest Def/SpD of a poke with Static is Ampharos with the hardly noteworthy 75/90. Ampharos also has the highest base HP with 90.) None of these pokémon can reliably take multiple contact moves to really utilize Static. So it's definitely an underutilized ability.

Trace isn't as underutilized, since the one pokémon who does have it (Porygon2 and Gardevoir) both make primary use of this ability, and although they are considered underused, both don't lack movepools or abilities to make it work.

So, of the two, I think Static is the better option.

 

[Deck Knight]

None of these pokemon have Magnet Rise. In fact aside from the Elec/Steels
http://www.serebii.net/attackdex-dp/magnetrise.shtml

Self-contradiction much? This is like two topics in a row where you've gotten basic facts wrong.

Really. It took me 10 seconds to look up Serebii's attackdex.

 

[cyberzero]

For those who are criticizing or question the reasoning behind the last poll, why don't you go take a look at the previous Secondary Ability Poll? As Deck Knight has said, none of them had over 50% of the vote and the next two were extremely close, 50 to 48. With the bottom three having a good number of votes but still not as close to the top 3, they were eliminated. The top 3 moved on. This Secondary Ability Poll will not be revoked, and no more complaining will be tolerated. Thank you.

 

[Magmortified]

None of these pokemon have Magnet Rise. In fact aside from the Elec/Steels, only Electrode gets it.

Check the Platinum Move tutors. I think it's in there. Though, I really wouldn't waste a moveslot just for Magnet Rise, to be honest.

I'm backing No Secondary Ability. I'm not really wanting this thing to get Static, and I can't really see all that much justifying Trace. I don't advocate a "Do it because we can" approach, so...

 

[zarator]

Still going for No secondary ability

And saying again:
1) We should stop trying to give everything we can to every CAP. I don't think this is the good approach
2) If Neglected Ability passed over something like - just an example - Para-busing Tank, it's not very honest to abuse the "openess" of the concept to sway it towards your idea. I think many people who supported certain types/abilities should ask to themselves if they were following EM concept or their forgotten one instead.

 

[pikpikcarrotmon]

Please don't vote for NSA. The purpose of this Pokemon is to find out what an unused ability would do in the OU environment, so voting NSA needlessly limits what we can learn from CAP8. Even if the 'secondary' ability overshadows Shield Dust, the Pokemon still fulfills our goal. I'm no fan of Trace, but I'd much rather see it over NSA simply because NSA is a waste of what could be more knowledge about the metagame.

 

[Magmortified]

Please don't vote for NSA. The purpose of this Pokemon is to find out what an unused ability would do in the OU environment, so voting NSA needlessly limits what we can learn from CAP8.

No it isn't. That never was our goal with this concept. Our goal was to make a Pokemon that made use of an ability that didn't see much play because the Pokemon it's attached to is bad. That's it. We just succeeded on that end with Shield Dust. Adding another does not boost some arbitrary "learning factor."

 

[Admiral_Stalfos19]

Voting Trace again. We already have a Poke with only one ability *points to Arghonaut*, do we really need another one?

As to why Trace is the superior option to Static...

Explain to me:
A: How Trace works advantageously more than 70% of the time? Other than trying to copy Vaporeon, Jolteon, Heatran, Flygon, or Salamence, which I already stated as being not very convincing, nor amazingly useful. Furthermore, the chance of copying useless abilities is quite high.

There is such a thing called 'strategic switching'. For example, switching into Rhyperior. This gives you Solid Rock, which means you survive the next EQ (it only does 43.10%-51.43% damage thanks to Solid Rock, which means the chance for it to 2HKO is minimal without Stealth Rock or Sandstorm), and then KO it with at most 2 HPGrasses (an unboosted one deals at least 53.92%-64.29% damage, and that's against a +SDf natured Rhypie with 252EVs to HP and SDf in the sand!)

B: So, how does Trace make CaP 8 fair any better against Earthquake, Rockslide or Stone Edge than say Static would? Aside from switching in to Flygon to try and get levitate and that only counts for Earthquake, which is risky enough as it is.

And into Rhyperior to get Solid Rock, which helps a hell of a lot when it comes to tanking.

And into Dugtrio to get Arena Trap. Again, there is such a thing as stragetic switching, and Duggy doesn't stand much of a chance.

I could go on and list all the other guys that commonly use EQ and that have worthwhile abilities, but that'll take a while

 

[Stagnant]

Uhm... by having another ability to use allows you to understand more mechanics and wht not. You have something to compare each other to and so on. A second ability won't hurt anything.

 

[Matthew]

Uhm... by having another ability to use allows you to understand more mechanics and wht not. You have something to compare each other to and so on. A second ability won't hurt anything.

What mechanics do we understand more? I am a voter of Trace, but this logic is god awful. We don't learn anything by giving this pokemon an ability, other than "that poor pokemon actually DID have a good ability after all!" This wasn't a decentralizer, who helped us learn how pokemon work in relation to one another. This wasn't an "ultimate sweeper" which would help us learn how stall teams would either be benefitted of removed completely. The point of this CAP is to create a pokemon with an ability that was attached to a bad pokemon, or a "neglected ability". The neglected ability doesn't give us information, it just shows it isn't a waste, only the pokemon with the ability is.

 

[pikpikcarrotmon]

I think you're misinterpreting it. The point is learning what unused abilities would do if they were put on good Pokemon and how the metagame would change. It's not just about the Pokemon with the ability.

 

[bpblu]

Please don't vote for NSA. The purpose of this Pokemon is to find out what an unused ability would do in the OU environment, so voting NSA needlessly limits what we can learn from CAP8. Even if the 'secondary' ability overshadows Shield Dust, the Pokemon still fulfills our goal. I'm no fan of Trace, but I'd much rather see it over NSA simply because NSA is a waste of what could be more knowledge about the metagame.

No offense, but I think we've squeezed all the knowledge possible out of Static. Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't mind Static... but people shouldn't blindly vote because it'll give us "more knowledge". Deck Knight pretty much sums up Static and what it can do. No more knowledge is needed.

And by the way, can't Porygon2 function viably in OU or did we all of the sudden decide he's no longer allowed in OU? Honestly, IMO, Porygon2 is a damn good user of Trace... if you want to learn more about Trace, just start up Porygon2 and go from there.

I'm not trying to say "You're stupid for voting such-and-such" but if we're giving an ability that could possibly overshadow Shield Dust, then why did we even give it Shield Dust in the first place? Suddenly our Neglected Ability CaP has a neglected ability (I guarantee you Trace will be more utilized than Shield Dust).

This is why I still cast my vote to No Secondary Ability. We already have a neglected ability in mind, we don't need a possibility of one being neglected because its other ability is better. It's too ironic to give Neglected Ability CaP an ability if people will ignore it. One ability ensures that it WILL be utilized, thus accomplishing the CaP8's goal.

 

[Matthew]

I think you're misinterpreting it. The point is learning what unused abilities would do if they were put on good Pokemon and how the metagame would change. It's not just about the Pokemon with the ability.

Name: Neglected Ability

Description: This pokemon will have an ability [or two] that is currently undervalued (but possibly very helpful) in the metagame but isn't used because the other pokemon with this ability don't have the stats or movepool to make it work.

I don't see what you said listed anywhere in the CAP concept, do you?

 

[pikpikcarrotmon]

I don't see what you said listed anywhere in the CAP concept, do you?

It says in the metagame. This ability is intended to have *some* effect on the metagame. Might as well do two in one go, we see more about what happens.

 

[Matthew]

It says in the metagame. This ability is intended to have *some* effect on the metagame. Might as well do two in one go, we see more about what happens.

Here, let me just take a specific part out of the quote above and allow me to make a judgment based on that. You clearly say "Might as well" which was probably followed by you saying "say Gen is right". The ability isn't intended to have an effect on the metagame, it is going to be placed in the metagame, so in that sense, yes it will. But outside of that we are not supposed to pick something based on "well it will change the metagame!" because that is simply not what the concept is.

 

[Xeorr]

come on guys, no secondary ability is a poor choice, it does not let us explore as much as we would if we had 2 abilities. If not trace, then at least go with static...