CAP Updates: Voodoom Discussion (Complete)

[snake]

As many of CAP veterans know, Voodoom has aged the worst out of all the CAPmons, as the three generations after its release have nothing for it. The massive power creep of Gen 5, the introduction of Fairy-types in Gen 6, and the increased usage of Fairy- and Fighting-type moves have done Voodoom no favors, not to mention the speed creep over every generation.

Its concept assessment was to use Baton Pass in conjunction with Nasty Plot boosts back and forth between it and Togekiss. While it's predominately a Special Attacker, it was given decent Attack and Close Combat to deny Blissey, the pink blob of choice in Gen 4 (pre-Eviolite) from ruining the strategy completely. Not only is this concept now banned due to Baton Pass Clause, but also Togekiss is not a great Pokemon in standard play, and as we've seen with Voodoom and Volkraken, "partner" concepts are not the best to work with.

Voodoom's Concept

Name: Perfect Mate
General Description: Pick a good-but-not-great OU pokemon, and design the perfect teammate for it, similar to the way Celebi & Heatran, or Blissey & Skarmory complement each other so well on competitive teams.

Justification:
This would allow us to explore in detail how synergy between two pokemon can be achieved, because currently there are only a few perfect teammates in OU. And depending on the base pokemon we choose to give a "perfect mate", we can open a new niche in the metagame based around the efficient pairing.
The niche we create will be inherently tied to an existing pokemon in the metagame, which should provide a natural limitation to prevent this concept from being broken or "too different" from standard OU.

Questions To Be Answered:

• Is the base pokemon's usefulness (and usage) in the metagame increased as a result of having a "perfect mate"?
• What strategies are more effective for the base pokemon, as a result of having a perfect teammate?
• What are the most effective aspects of the new pokemon, for purposes of making a great teammate with the base pokemon?
• Is the new pokemon viable in the metagame without the base pokemon as a teammate

However, this does not mean that Voodoom was terrible at its release. While not pairing too well with Togekiss, Voodoom found a great partner in Zapdos, who ran more offensive sets at the time. However, Tapu Koko and Thundurus have taken Zapdos's role from Gen 4, so today, Zapdos finds itself running defensive sets or niche sets like a Tailwind setter on some HO teams.

Voodoom, while not top tier by any means, does not lack redeeming qualities. It still retains the same speed tier as Mega Metagross at 110, which isn't too slow. It's bulk isn't too terrible, sitting at 90 / 80 / 80, meaning it's about as bulky as non-Intimidate Arcanine. It's Special Attack is passable as well, sitting at 105, meaning it's just a little weaker than Celesteela, who has 107 SpA. It's 85 Attack is frankly irrelevant by today's standards, as Chansey isn't OHKOed by Close Combat like Blissey is. Boasting an immunity to Electric is also very nice, giving it a few more opportunities to switch in. It has access to quite decent coverage: Fighting-, Dark-, and Psychic-type coverage is nothing to sneeze at. Memento, Taunt, Vacuum Wave, and Hidden Power Ice are also good moves to run on it.

As it stands now, I don't think salvaging the concept is a viable action. Frankly, trying to have it work with Togekiss would be like trying to get two equally other unviable mons to work together. Even trying to get it work with Zapdos sounds suboptimal given that Voodoom wants to run offensive sets and that Zapdos wants to run defensive sets. Therefore, I think working off of established metagame role, a fast balance breaker, would be best.

Note: This is competitive discussion. Flavor updates will happen in a later thread.

I'd like to lead discussion with some questions. Please do not suggest new moves/abilities yet.

1. What role/niche should Voodoom fulfill in today's metagame?
2. Are Voodoom's abilities sufficient in fulfilling this niche?
3. How close is Voodoom to accomplishing this niche?

 

[Mova]

1. What role/niche should Voodoom fulfill in today's metagame?
Voodoom could try to use Memento to discourage a sweep. If not, attempting to break balance sounds good, rather than targeting hyper-offensive teams.

2. Are Voodoom's abilities sufficient in fulfilling this niche?
Both of Voodoom's current (how punny) Abilities provide an immunity to Electric-type attacks. Volt Absorb restores HP, while Lightning Rod provides a Special Attack boost when hit. Voodoom's raw Special Attack is lacking by today's standards, and his abilities are quite predictable due to having the same immunity. It's best to use when switching in.

 

[reachzero]

I've used Voodoom quite a bit, and I have some observations.

Voodoom struggles with offensive power. Voodoom's speed tier helps because you can run Modest and outsped the middling speed stuff exemplified by Tapu Lele and Colossoil, and the only major things you miss out on Kitsunoh and Garchomp. With Timid, your lack of power is even more painful. You have to run a damage boosting item, no question about it. Life Orb four attacks is the set I used, with Psychic for Tomohawk and Mollux, and Hidden Power Poison for the Tapus.

Voodoom isn't totally unusable as is, but suffers the terrible indignity of being completely outclassed: it wasn't useless to me, but numerous times I found myself thinking that the same team would have been better with Hoopa-U or Greninja. Voodoom is about as strong as Ash Greninja before transforming, but without the speed to do cool stuff like revenging Mega Metagross. It lacks the power to really wallbreak. Voodoom functions best when you bring it in on its Electric immunity because the Lightningrod boost helps a ton, but finding an opportunity can be tough unless your opponent has something like Cyclohm, Rotom-w, or Scarf Plasmanta. Life Orb Plasmanta and Tapu Koko have 4x effective Fairy coverage, so they're just too dangerous to switch in on.

Voodoom still does have good coverage, and it would be better if it had a true Poison attack. The issue is that it needs something more generally useful than Lightningrod to differentiate it from Hoopa-U and Greninja.

I think there are two basic directions we could go with Voodoom. The first would be to embrace the present four attack set, and transition to a more generically good offensive ability to replace the ironically inferior ability, Volt Absorb. This would either make Timid easier to stomach or more likely give Voodoom actually KO power with Modest.

The second option is giving Voodoom a special boosting move, in which case it could actually be a reasonably good wallbreaker (or Baton Passer), and probably do it more effectively than Hoopa-U's CM set does.

I don't think Voodoom will ever get to A or A+ viability without a super powerful offensive ability, but giving it a boosting move would be a really good start. Wallbreaker would be a good goal, since I think Voodoom's speed is too low to really sweep.

 

[LucarioOfLegends]

I don't specifically think that Memento is the best route to go for Voodoom, as Kerfluffle can do something similar with Parting Shot, just with less self sacrifice.

I completely agree with what reach has to say, as a boosting move and/or a new ability to replace Volt Absorb could do wonders, and both Lightning Rod and the former create too much overlap. I'm not willing to go fully onto the boosting bandwagon yet, as Voodoom does have some tools that could be used to create an interesting niche.

I would like to bring attention to a few traits of Voodoom that could be used in different ways: Baton Pass and his Speed tier. 110 Speed is actually a fairly decent speed tier for today's standards, especially after the Gen 7 slowdown. Combine this with a move that can pass stat boosts to other Mons, and one would get a semi fast passer in CAP. It already has most of the tools it needs for it, and all it really needs is a good boosting move, and it could be interesting.

I fully expect this idea to be shot down, but just some food for thought.

 

[NumberCruncher]

So one of the more problematic aspects of Voodoom as it stands is that it was built to sweep after a Nasty Plot, but Voodoom himself doesn't actually have access to Nasty Plot, and would struggle to set a Nasty Plot even if it could. Its damage is sub-par without Modest, and its speed tier is significantly worse when it's not Timid. He doesn't really even have a niche right now, because he doesn't add anything to a team that Greninja can't add. He also has this weird problem that his physical moveset is way better than his special moveset. Close Combat/Knock Off/Ice Punch seems way more insane than Focus Blast/Dark Blast/Psychic. It even has things like Pursuit, Earthquake, and Drain Punch.

I agree with reachzero's assessment that we should probably attempt to turn Voodoom into a wallbreaker, and that some sort of boosting set is in order. Honestly, switching the Attack and Special Attack stat on Voodoom would solve 75% of Voodoom's problems in the metagame, but since we aren't doing stat changes, he's going to need better special coverage and an ability that either secures him his set-up, gives him a substantial boost in damage output, or messes up walls so badly that you won't mind the abysmal damage his moves are doing.

 

[HeaLnDeaL]

I just want to briefly chime in to say that I think *replacing* volt absorb is a bad optics choice when it could just gain an HA. Volt absorb is rather bad on it and inferior to Lightning Rod, so it's not like a third ability would make it have 3 "good" abilities. I'm not super committed to the ability route quite yet, but reach brought it up and it seems to have some potential.

 

[Deck Knight]

Before I go into too much, I want to comment that in its time Voodoom was actually one of the most successful projects we ever did. Yes, it ended up being a better partner for Zapdos than Togekiss, but by and large its Baton Pass chain potential with Zapdos was amazing and it covered Zapdos's weaknesses so well thanks to its rock resistance and ability to threaten Ice types. Voodoom would probably still be decent if Baton Pass chains were a legal strategy, but alas its stuck competing for a lone passing slot with a lot of better passers.

I think Voodoom has absolutely amazing potential as a breaker, it just currently lacks the movepool to do it. I don't think it has as many issues setting up as NumberCruncher said, as Voodoom can come in on a predicted Volt Switch and use the opportunity to set up an NP. Voodoom also resists Stealth Rock so it can attempt this numerous times with the hazard up. This would give it +3 SpA, and Tomohawk would be loathe to switch in because it would still have to eat a Psychic even if it did Haze (which unfortunately still works on Doom even though it's Dark type because Haze targets the field.)

Specifically I mapped out two sets that would work together to make Voodoom a very threatening breaking mon, but we're not to that phase just yet. Voodoom is a Pokemon with sound stats and typing, and Generation 7 gave it a some really strong tools in Z-Moves that let it pinch-KO multiple threats in the CAP Metagame. Voodoom's current issue is that it has no reason to run a +Spe nature because it needs the extra power on Shattered Psyche to OHKO and Lightning Rod boosts aren't reliable.

On Abilities, by complete fluke of luck Lightning Rod actually became Voodoom's competitive Ability instead of Volt Absorb, completely flipping which Ability had the better effect between the two. Voodoom doesn't need to replace Volt Absorb, it has another Ability slot.

 

[david0895]

Since we can't change the stats, let's look the movepool and the abilities:

- Movepool: A thing that we can immediatly note, is the low amount of the special moves that Voodoom can use with its 105 Special Attack, instead the amount physical moves are good, but it hasn't enough physiacl Attack to use all of them (especially the coverage moves).

- Abilities: Lightning Rod is definitely better than Volt Absorb, since a boost in the SpA is always useful.

Moving on the thread's questions:

1. What role/niche should Voodoom fulfill in today's metagame?

A wallbreaker role with can be good, since Voodoom has an offensive type

2. Are Voodoom's abilities sufficient in fulfilling this niche?

No. Lightning Rod is not enough since it can't base its power on the boosts from the opponent

3. How close is Voodoom to accomplishing this niche?

The problem is that Voodoom hasn't enough power to accomplish this role. The best way is adding something that raise its output damage (Nasty Plot, Sheer Force, Adaptbility, etc...)

 

[Take Azelfie]

1. What role/niche should Voodoom fulfill in today's metagame?
If we wanted to, we could try to stay close to its original concept and make it so that it can become a powerful sweeper after a teammate has weakened/removed Voodoom's answers. Voodoom has plenty of speed to accomplish this and it able to make use of its STABs hitting everything that isn't Fairy, this could be a great way to reinterpret the concept it originally had.
2. Are Voodoom's abilities sufficient in fulfilling this niche?
Uh unless we decided to use something like Celesteela as the "partner" this ability is only okay. Lightning Rod can be good on a switch in and if the team is weakened enough, sweep them from there but in general it doesn't really contribute to its new niche.
3. How close is Voodoom to accomplishing this niche?
I feel like Voodoom is still going to struggle a lot with this role as a sweeper, since Fairy-types are generally very bulky and powerful Pokemon you want throughout the game. But if you made what it is good at already, or rather what it was good at, then Voodoom has the potential to be scary late game sweeper so I'd be towards a middle ground here of not too far but not too close.

 

[DarkSlay]

1. What role/niche should Voodoom fulfill in today's metagame?

It's a good question. Voodoom's biggest issue is that it's horribly out-classed in its current form. Greninja (and Greninja-A variants). Hoopa-U. Kerfluffle. Tapu Koko. I could go on. Honestly, "fast special attacker" isn't that good of a niche individually to pursue, there's too much glut there. So in order to give Voodoom actual usage in the metagame, we need to do one of the following:

1. Dramatically boost its offensive output outside of boosting.
OR
2. Give it a boosting move to give it a niche.

I don't like the idea of doing both, and honestly, I feel like the latter accomplishes way more for it than the former. Therefore, I'd like for us to consider making Voodoom a Nasty Plot Abuser and Passer. This still gives it a tie-in (a weak one, but a tie-in nonetheless) to its original concept while at least giving it a niche that few Pokemon have in the tier.

2. Are Voodoom's abilities sufficient in fulfilling this niche?

In short: maybe? I like the idea of an Electric immunity, that's a neat niche that can benefit teammates. However, I think Volt Absorb is just out-dated and not useful. I don't want to get into specifics, but I'll give a hint: it's time for Voodoom to taste the forbidden fruit once denied to it (no, not Malaconda's tail...).

3. How close is Voodoom to accomplishing this niche?

Closer than some think, but further than others think. Great answer, right? Voodoom has good offensive STABs with good Speed, but lacks offensive output and struggle heavily defensively. I think that the answer to this question is "Voodoom is salvageable", which is a good start. The question is, how salvageable, and to what degree do we push Voodoom without just making it stupidly powerful for the sake of salvation? Viability itself should be the goal, not "A+ on the VR".

 

[jas61292]

Voodoom has definitely struggled a lot since its inception. While it may be easy to point to fairies as the crux of its issues, its problems really started back in early 5th gen with the introduction of Tomohawk. Remember, when Voodoom was made, it was created with a typing such that it could have nearly perfect coverage with just its STABs, only Heracross and Toxicroak resisted that combo, the former of whom was a minor threat and the latter of whom was irrelevant. This freed up moveslots as it only ever needed to run STAB offensive moves. A quick look back it its old 4th gen analysis shows that it would only ever run STABs and usually just 2 offensive moves, freeing it up to run many different support and utility options. However, when 5th gen rolled around, suddenly the most popular and powerful Pokemon in the game shut Voodoom's STABs down hard. Now, Voodoom does have Psychic to allow it to hit Tomohawk hard, its sheer prevalence made it so that Voodoom only really has one flexible moveslot, not two. Now, of course, fairies have compounded this problem, but I think it is something to keep in mind that we simply cannot replicate its original playstyle in the current metagame, since it is an offensive first Pokemon, and can no Pokemon like that can afford to miss out on hitting both the fairies and Tomohawk. So, that should not really be our focus. Not that I think people wanted to try that, but its just something to note.

Anyways, as to the questions:

1. What role/niche should Voodoom fulfill in today's metagame?

As others have suggested, Voodoom's biggest problem is its damage output. What was once an acceptable primary stat for an offensive Pokemon is now on the weak side. Similarly, its Attack stat, which used to be acceptable for taking out key threats, is now mostly useless. And that's not even getting into the fact that it can no longer afford the moveslot for Close Combat on its standard sets. But, beyond its damage output, it is actually a very solid Pokemon in many ways. It is not blazing fast, but 110 is a very acceptable speed tier for an offensive mon. And while it might not be a major tank, it is not exactly frail either. Really, if it were hitting at a power level more on par with today's threats, Voodoom could potentially be a very viable Pokemon.

So with that said, I would agree with those suggesting that making it a boosting attacker. Not only is this closer to being in line with its original role (with regard to the whole Baton Pass portion), but it allows for the improvement to a respectable level with the most simple of additions.
2. Are Voodoom's abilities sufficient in fulfilling this niche?

I actually think the answer to this is a solid "yes." Voodoom may not be frail, but it is not a tank either, and having an extra, and rather unique, immunity is a big boon for something that might have some issues switching in easily. What's more, Lightning Rod is the one thing that allows it to be more than complete trash today, as while it may not be very threatening normally, it can actually hit respectably hard if it nabs a boost. When you take into account both the increased number of set up opportunities an immunity allows, and the benefit that having an extra boost can bring, I think this is actually an ideal ability for Voodoom to have.

I know it is tempting to feel like Voodoom is so useless nowadays and want to try and eek out improvements everywhere, but I really feel like ability is one place where Voodoom is actually really solid.
3. How close is Voodoom to accomplishing this niche?

Pretty darn close. As I just said, while it is easy to look at how bad it is now and think it is very far away, a single small change can completely overhaul the way a Pokemon functions. For Voodoom, I think the only real thing standing in the way of its niche is the lack of a SpA boosting move to use. While that may not be the only tweak it could use, I absolutely believe it is the only major one, and that with that simple addition, and perhaps a few other minor updates, Voodoom would be well on its way to being a viable threat.

 

[Okamu]

Alright, Voodoom fun time huh? Honestly, I quite like the mon in terms of flavor, so I'm greatly looking forward to whatever comes out of this.

1. What role/niche should Voodoom fulfill in today's metagame?
As has been mentioned already in this thread, one of the most obvious ways to go with Voodoom is for a specially attacking mon with a boosting move. This is a perfectly good solution, and I would also like to express support for it myself. However, I would also like to point out that the utility moves it has access to also should not be forgotten. During my time fooling around with it, I used a Darkinium Z set that allowed me the use of either Z Memento for the momentum regain or Z Dark Pulse to blast through a mon I might not have KOed otherwise, to keep momentum going or get a revenge kill. I can't say it was the most successful thing ever, but it was definitely an interesting experience, and with it also packing Taunt and Magic Coat, I would like to simply propose the idea of 3 Attacks and 1 Support as well. I know it was pointed out earlier that Kerfluffle can do something very similar, but with the heavy presence of Psychic STAB in the metagame right now, with Lele, Auru, and Megagross, being able to get a predict switch in could be the difference between winning and losing. And yes, I acknowledge that a Bug Buzz and Moonblast absolutely drop this mon, but it's just something worth considering. If Voodoom only starts to run one set, it hasn't so much solved the problem of giving Voodoom viability as much as shifted the problem from not having the capability to do well to having only one way to be viable, which of course has its own ramifications that make the mon less useable in the meta.

2. Are Voodoom's abilities sufficient in fulfilling this niche?
Lightning Rod is honestly perfect in my opinion, since it provides an extra immunity and a way to boost SpA passively if you happen to get in on an electric move. Volt Absorb, however, I think leaves much to be desired. IT gives the same electric immunity, but heals instead of boosting SpA, which for a special attacker doesn't appear as desirable. However, as was mentioned earlier, giving it a Hidden Ability to help instead of replacing Volt Absorb should work fine.

3. How close is Voodoom to accomplishing this niche?
I almost feel like a phonograph at this point, with how much I keep mentioning similar stuff, but as has been mentioned before, given what is already available to Voodoom, a new ability and/or an expanded special/boosting movepool would easily allow it to reach viability. In short, it's really not that bad of a scenario.

 

[Kyubics]

Instead of answering the questions directly, I just want to explain my opinions of this update and respond to what some others have said. I'm also kind of working under the assumption that Voodoom will receive an update to its movepool to help it adjust to the addition of Fairy-types, one of its biggest flaws and also something introduced after its original project. If that causes any problems, please let me know and I can change my post to reflect that.

Firstly, I want to examine the end goal of this update - what we want Voodoom to be when we've finished, if you like. I'd like to challenge the assumption that we should only have one set or role that Voodoom should run or accomplish. If you look at the SM OU Sets Viability Rankings, for example, you will see that many of the top threats have multiple niches that they can fill, and although I am not insinuating that Voodoom must be made into a top threat, I think that this is something we should aim for. Attempting to limit Voodoom to one standard set or updating it with only one set in mind is, in my opinion, a flawed approach due to the fact the we are incapable of thinking of all eventualities or predicting every metagame trend. Giving Voodoom more flexibility could help the update stay relevant for longer. Also, we cannot pretend that the set we design is the one that it will always run. For example, DarkSlay 's concept of a 'Nasty Plot Abuser and Passer' is not the way to go because I don't think that Baton Pass is the best move to fill a precious slot of a set-up sweeper. Running Baton Pass alongside Nasty Plot is surely inferior to running a coverage move such as the existing Psychic or a move that hits Fairy-types. Keeping that would mean Voodoom dropping one of its STABs - either option is certainly unfavourable.
Despite this and in keeping with the rest of the thread, I do agree with the sentiment that Voodoom is currently horribly outclassed due to its lack of damage output. This leads me to be in complete agreement with the first paragraph of jas61292 's answer to question 1, however my acquiescence with his post ends there. While I do think that a boosting move is potentially a good addition, I think that alone it will not fix Voodoom's issue of damage output. Making Voodoon reliant on a boost in order to deal meaningful damage makes it extremely one-dimensional and predictable. Consequently, I also disagree with the argument that Voodoom's abilities are fine to remain as they are. There are relatively few Electric-types in OU, and even fewer that Voodoom wants to switch into. The most viable, Tapu Koko not only has a 4x super-effective STAB and is faster than Voodoom, it can use U-Turn to pivot whilst avoiding Lightning Rod. While it is true that Voodoom can take advantage of a choice-locked Magnezone, it is a risk to switch in when you take upwards of 80% from a Specs Flash Cannon. CAP does add a few more viable Electric-types in Cyclohm, Plasmanta and Krilowatt, but the former had dropped in usage drastically in Gen 7 and Voodoom is 2HKO'ed by the other two if it predicts incorrectly. I am not saying that Lightning Rod is a completely useless ability, far from it, but I think its situational nature can still leave Voodoom outclassed by other special set-up sweepers such as CM Keldeo, CM Tapu Lele and Nasty Plot Thundurus forms.
In my opinion, adding an ability that gives Voodoom more immediate power is the way to go for this update. There are a huge range of options from abilities that just boost its STABs to abilities that boost all of its moves - and ones that do these to different extents. I think we need to examine these options more closely to see how Voodoom can benefit from them instead of immediately deciding to stick with the abilities we've got and to not explore different options. If we agree that Voodoom needs something to increase its damage output, and have ruled out base stats from the off, then it is clear that only moves and abilities can be changed. I hope I have explained why a movepool addition will not fix this so it is only logical that an ability update is the way to go to get this done.
Overall, I do not believe that Voodoom is far from being viable - only a few tweaks to its movepool and the addition of a more powerful ability should, in my opinion, be enough. Okamu posted just as I was writing this final sentence, but I hope most of my points still stand.

 

[Bughouse]

Voodoom shouldn't need too many individual changes, but the changes will have a large impact. Voodoom needs Pick Two of the Four:

• Speed increase
• Special Attack increase
• Sludge Bomb
• Nasty Plot

Any group of 2 of these 4 should be enough. Some would make it better than others, but any 2 would bring it out of obscurity.

I do not think any ability changes are necessary whatsoever.

 

[Snorlax in the way]

1. What role/niche should Voodoom fulfill in today's metagame?

Voodoom should, in my opinion, fulfill the role of Nasty Plot Abuser. As of now it is outclassed by many pokemon, because of how the metagame has shifted and changed while Voodoom, and its concept have fallen by the way side. This role would help Voodoom leave the "worst capmon" vendetta that it carries around, and to excel at something, possibly being one of the better capmons. In a way, with the addition of Nasty Plot, Voodoom would be fulfilling the role of both Togekiss and itself together.

2. Are Voodoom's abilities sufficient in fulfilling this niche?

Volt Absorb is lackluster, and is universally looked upon as "not enough" to warrant use on Voodoom. Lightning Rod can be of some use, but another ability to help it capitalize on its current dark, fighting, and fighting type coverage. Its current abilities don't really do enough to help warrant the role of Nasty Plot, and its lack of a role now.

3. How close is Voodoom to accomplishing this niche?

Voodoom is surprisingly close to accomplishing the Nasty Plot abuser role. It has the solid dark, fighting, psychic coverage, as well its 105 base spa, and its 110 speed, which is the same speed as Mega Metagross. With, of course the addition of Nasty Plot, and a few added moves, such as Sludge Wave/Sludge Bomb to give one example, Voodoom could pack a major punch, which is a big change from the current role it has, of memey death fodder.

 

[david0895]

Voodoom shouldn't need too many individual changes, but the changes will have a large impact. Voodoom needs Pick Two of the Four:

• Speed increase
• Special Attack increase
• Sludge Bomb
• Nasty Plot

Any group of 2 of these 4 should be enough. Some would make it better than others, but any 2 would bring it out of obscurity.

I do not think any ability changes are necessary whatsoever.

Since there will not be any change at the stats, Nasty Plot and Sludge Bomb remain the only options

 

[snake]

Taking into consideration from this thread, conversations in chat today, and a little bit of calcing myself, I've drawn seen three solutions we can take with Voodoom.

1. Nasty Plot Abuser
2. Immediate Boosting Ability as Hidden Ability
3. More Coverage (e.g. Sludge Bomb/Wave)

While many people have speculated NP + Sludge Bomb + Outdated Voodoom = Viable Voodoom, it could create a very OP Voodoom (never thought I'd put OP and Voodoom next to each other), as at +2 Special Attack only faster Pokemon can kill Voodoom. Most Pokemon on stall and balance teams can't survive +2 (Focus Blast + Dark Pulse + Sludge Bomb). However, +2 (Focus Blast + Dark Pulse + Psychic) is a lot more manageable. Additionally, STABS + NP + Baton Pass could be a viable set as well.

An immediate boosting ability would work as well. I've seen some discussion on Mega Launcher and Sheer Force, but I'd like to see a little more to see what the community has to say.

Sludge Bomb on its own is an option since it hits Fairy-type hard, but Voodoom still lacks the power that it wants so desperately.

While each of these are solutions on their own, I fear mixing them together could cause Voodoom to become too good. Out of the options 1, 2, and 3, which would be best for Voodoom? Tell me and everyone else why it'd be best! If you want to apply two at the same time, give extensive proof as to why it won't be OP. If you have something else entirely to suggest, you can post that too.

 

[Mova]

I would try to work with an immediate boosting Hidden Ability for Voodoom because it could use some raw power without boosting, such as the aforementioned Sheer Force. It has a decent Attack stat to use it as well, but not many physical moves benefit from Sheer Force. Not that they necessarily need to, though.

 

[Deck Knight]

There are plenty of Pokemon faster than Voodoom that can KO it. Scarf Tapu Lele is a prime example, though there are others. Additionally some foresight is helpful, in that we know Altarianite will eventually be re-released and that causes some fun prediction games of Dark Pulse vs Sludge Wave while Altaria chooses whether to M-Evolve as it uses DD.

Tapu Koko is another solid answer to come in on Nasty Plot, and Scarf Plasmanta safely disposes of NP Voodoom as well. Scarf Mollux can Trick it and easily laps up any of Focus Blast / Dark Pulse / Sludge Wave. There are also checks like Mega Zam that can defeat it with a Focus Blast of their own.

Defensively, Unaware Clefable easily switches in on NP, and it can tank Sludge Bomb so long as it doesn't Poison.

Long story short NP Voodoom is threatening, but does have a multitude of checks and counters far beyond "must be faster with a Fairy move."

 

[david0895]

Taking into consideration from this thread, conversations in chat today, and a little bit of calcing myself, I've drawn seen three solutions we can take with Voodoom.

1. Nasty Plot Abuser
2. Immediate Boosting Ability as Hidden Ability
3. More Coverage (e.g. Sludge Bomb/Wave)

While many people have speculated NP + Sludge Bomb + Outdated Voodoom = Viable Voodoom, it could create a very OP Voodoom (never thought I'd put OP and Voodoom next to each other), as at +2 Special Attack only faster Pokemon can kill Voodoom. Most Pokemon on stall and balance teams can't survive +2 (Focus Blast + Dark Pulse + Sludge Bomb). However, +2 (Focus Blast + Dark Pulse + Psychic) is a lot more manageable. Additionally, STABS + NP + Baton Pass could be a viable set as well.

An immediate boosting ability would work as well. I've seen some discussion on Mega Launcher and Sheer Force, but I'd like to see a little more to see what the community has to say.

Sludge Bomb on its own is an option since it hits Fairy-type hard, but Voodoom still lacks the power that it wants so desperately.

While each of these are solutions on their own, I fear mixing them together could cause Voodoom to become too good. Out of the options 1, 2, and 3, which would be best for Voodoom? Tell me and everyone else why it'd be best! If you want to apply two at the same time, give extensive proof as to why it won't be OP. If you have something else entirely to suggest, you can post that too.

1. Nasty Plot Abuser: Since a SD user is very hard to counter (Landorus-T, Tapu Bulu, etc...), I prefer to leave this option. Especially now that there are a lot of 100+ Speed Scarf.

2. Immediate Boosting Ability as Hidden Ability: This could be a good idea, since 105 SpA is good but not so good. Also about Lightning Rod, the electric mons can predict its entering, use another move doing good damage (Koko and Plasmanta have Dazzling Gleam, Rotom has Hydro Pump, Magnezone has Flash Cannon, Krilowatt has Surf, Zapdos has Heat Wave, Xurkitree has Energy Ball, Thundurus has Superpower)

3. More Coverage (e.g. Sludge Bomb/Wave):

Coverage for Dark + Fighting + Psychic:
Super Effective: Dark, Fighting, Ghost, Ice, Normal, Poison, Psychic, Rock, Steel
Neutral: Bug, Dragon, Electric, Fairy, Fire, Flying, Grass, Ground, Water
Resists: None
Immunities: None

Coverage for Dark + Fighting + Psychic + Poison:
Super Effective: Dark, Fairy, Fighting, Ghost, Grass, Ice, Normal, Poison, Psychic, Rock, Steel
Neutral: Bug, Dragon, Electric, Fire, Flying, Ground, Water
Resists: None
Immunities: None

Ok, maybe adding Poison coverage might not be a good idea...

This shows that I'm for adding an immediate boosting ability.

The options are: Adaptability, Sheer Force, Mega Launcher:

252 SpA Life Orb Adaptability Voodoom Dark Pulse vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Manaphy: 195-231 (57.1 - 67.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Adaptability Voodoom Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Manaphy: 294-346 (86.2 - 101.4%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO

252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Voodoom Dark Pulse vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Manaphy: 188-224 (55.1 - 65.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Voodoom Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Manaphy: 285-335 (83.5 - 98.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Life Orb Mega Launcher Voodoom Dark Pulse vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Manaphy: 220-259 (64.5 - 75.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Mega Launcher Voodoom Aura Sphere vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Manaphy: 220-259 (64.5 - 75.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Voodoom Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Manaphy: 220-259 (64.5 - 75.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Adaptability raise the power of the STABs, Sheer Force gives it less power but upgrades even the coverage (Psychic) and removes the Life Orb recoil, Mega Launcher gives it more power to Dark Pulse than Adaptability and allows Aura Sphere to reach the same power of Focus Blast, but is less powerful than a boosted Focus Blast

 

[Deck Knight]

I think we should slow down a bit and not forget our Update Principles.

What we are looking for is the options that keep Voodoom's essence intact. I believe direct boosting abilities fail massively in this regard. I would sooner see Simple Voodoom with Work Up than Mega Launcher or Adaptability, simply because Voodoom has never been about being a standalone sweeper. Voodoom has always been part of an offensive core with whatever Pokemon it has as a partner, and at least Simple Work Up would retain Voodoom's niche of being able to pass on significant boosts to allies (not to mention Simple Bulk Up >_>).

This would still be a massive change in how Voodoom plays, but not detract from its "Voodoom-iness."

I also think Nasty Plot in conjunction with coverage is being blown out of proportion. Realistically, a Nasty Plot set will run Focus Blast (OHKOs MMeta, Magearna, MMawile, etc.) for sheer damage output, Psychic (or Thunderbolt if we add it) to address Tomohawk, and Sludge Bomb / Wave so as to avoid being walled by the non-Steel Fairies. Voodoom just doesn't have the room to run dual STAB on an NP set, Dark Pulse doesn't hit hard enough unless you also get a Lightning Rod boost. In other words, NP makes Voodoom more threatening at the cost of inflicting it with 4MSS, and the most likely loser is the Dark STAB it uses to threaten Mega Metagross and friends because hitting Hawk and Fairies are higher priorities. Bear in mind that this set is relying on Focus Blast as its primary breaker, which has accuracy issues, but again, if it does connect it's good bye to its intended targets. Dark Pulse works as a replacement against MMeta, and fails horribly against the Steel/Fairies.

Additionally, the turn to set up Nasty Plot itself invites a good number of Pokemon that can threaten Voodoom, not least of which is the recently re-released Mega Pidgeot, but there's also Unaware Clefable, Tornadus-T, Tapu Koko, Pheremosa, Scarf Plasmanta, and of course niche checks like Scarved Flying, Fairy, Fighting types. 110 Spe is good. It's still too slow against a lot of Scarfers and top metagame threats. Duggy can also trap a weakened Voodoom and 2HKO with EQ or OHKO with Reversal after the Sash activates. Bottom line is, NP Voodoom does have a substantial list of checks and counters even with expanded coverage.

Voodoom has an infamous parallel when it comes to coverage in Electivire. Electivire could hit so many things for super-effective damage. The problem is all those SE attacks had low Base Powers and Electivire's Attack stat was only somewhat good. Voodoom's coverage moves aren't quite as weak, but it's base Special Attack especially with Timid is simply not going to be broken at +2 Base 105.

So in general I believe the most "Voodoom-y" option is to mold Voodoom chiefly as a Nasty Plot Abuser with more coverage, specifically Thunderbolt (not Thunder) and Poison coverage. These are both in keeping with Voodoom's essence and allow it to address Hawk and Tapu Fini simultaneously should it so choose. Even with Roost Hawk can't keep up with Thunderbolt on Haze followed by Focus Blast on Roost, especially if rocks are down.

 

[DarkSlay]

Here's the issue with Nasty Plot Voodoom with Sludge Bomb: you run the risk of Voodoom having a genuine answer for everything all at once, and you give it access to a move that catches checks and counters pretty easily.

Now, I'm not saying that Sludge Bomb is a terrible idea on its own, but one has to be wary of some of the issues that could arise from getting a move that hits plenty of things. To me, here are the facts about Nasty Plot + Sludge Bomb:

1. Psychic (or any other coverage move) is no longer necessary. At +2 with a Life Orb, Voodoom has the capacity to 2HKO a multitude of things with its STABs alone. By adding Sludge Bomb, you now hit pretty much everything that resists its STABs for massive damage, super-effective or not. Here's a list of common competitive Pokemon that currently resist Dark + Fighting: Buzzwole, Pheromosa, Tapu Bulu, Tapu Fini, Tapu Koko, Azumarill, Clefable, Tomohawk, Kerfluffle. That's it. You have some weird exceptions here and there (Toxicroak), but these are probably the most relevant. Issue: Sludge Bomb beats all of these all at once. Most things that Psychic is for are either OHKO'd or 2HKO's by a +2 STAB move or Sludge Bomb. Here are some examples:

Calculations

+2 252 SpA Life Orb Voodoom Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Buzzwole: 361-426 (86.3 - 101.9%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO

+2 252 SpA Life Orb Voodoom Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mollux: 204-242 (51.7 - 61.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (NOTE: Psychic does not OHKO without Rocks down, so both are 2HKO's and Dark Pulse flinch beats Recover stalling.)

+2 252 SpA Life Orb Voodoom Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Plasmanta: 298-352 (91.9 - 108.6%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO

+2 252 SpA Life Orb Voodoom Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Tomohawk: 265-312 (64 - 75.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+2 252 SpA Life Orb Voodoom Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 24 SpD Toxapex: 212-251 (69.7 - 82.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery (NOTE: Yes, Psychic does OHKO here. If you really needed to OHKO Toxapex, Psychic should be used, but Dark Pulse still wins.)

+2 252 SpA Life Orb Voodoom Dark Pulse vs. 232 HP / 80 SpD Venusaur-Mega: 234-277 (65.1 - 77.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (NOTE: Psychic also OHKO's here, but again, Dark Pulse is sufficient.)

252 SpA Life Orb Voodoom Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Unaware Arghonaut: 220-259 (53.1 - 62.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (NOTE: Psychic = Focus Blast in damage virtually.)

Point: +2 STABs and Sludge Bomb access pretty much eliminate the point of using any other coverage move unless you have a stiffy for OHKO'ing Tomohawk, Venusaur-Mega, and Toxapex instead of 2HKO'ing them. You gain way, way more coverage from Sludge Bomb without losing the capacity to beat things that Psychic beats.

2. Sludge Bomb has the capacity to take out things extremely well that would otherwise check Voodoom. This is similar to the "Earth Power Tomohawk" concern, where Sludge Bomb gives Voodoom the capacity to wail on natural checks and counters as they switch in. [Difference here is that in this context, we're making the decision on whether or not we want that rather than whether or not that ability should be taken away from Tomohawk.] Things like Tapu Koko, Tapu Fini, and (especially) Unaware Clefable will no longer be considered valid checks to Voodoom, since these Pokemon are OHKO'd or 2HKO'd by Sludge Bomb by itself. It's going to be hard to come in on a predicted Nasty Plot and check when these threats are taken out by a coverage move. We need to consider whether or not that's a good thing or if that's avoidable. I just don't like that kind of coverage.

---

That said, Thunderbolt does intrigue me, since it does provide insurance against specific threats while ensuring that it still loses to other handily (Tapu Koko, Clefable, Tapu Bulu, etc.). I'd like to see some more discussion on Electric-type coverage for Voodoom, I think it fits well with its design and doesn't allow it to beat a huge variety of threats. It also makes sense as a nod to Zapdos support, since TBolt dealt with a lot of things that Voodoom disliked (bulky Waters, etc.).

 

[Exclaimer]

I think CAP room did some theorymon matches with Nasty Plot + Sludge Wave Voodoom and it was really underwhelming. Sure, it can sweep if given the chance, but it struggled to find the opportunity due to frailty and bad defensive typing. Heck, even Jolly Colossoil has a chance to just OHKO with Earthquake alone, and Sucker Punch, a 4x resisted move, finishes if that doesn't kill. So you can't set up on that without taking the risk of losing Voodoom, despite Voodoom theoretically forcing Colossoil out.

252 Atk Guts Colossoil Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Voodoom: 282-333 (87.5 - 103.4%) -- 25% chance to OHKO

I think Voodoom could be a viable sweeper if given these two options, but really, it's not gonna be overpowered in a meta that's as blazing fast as this one, where Life Orb Greninja has a 87.5% chance to OHKO with Hydro Pump, Tomohawk can come in since Voodoom probably won't run Psychic much, and any scarfer worth its salt can revenge kill it.

It really is just another B/B+ sweeper with those moves at its disposal.


Edit response to heal: Yes, Voodoom can definitely beat Colossoil 1v1, but my point with that calc is that Voodoom can't even set up on Colossoil despite this because Colossoil beats it if it doesn't click fighting STAB. Even if Colossoil switches, chances are it's to something that can outspeed and beat it, like Scarf Lele.

 

[HeaLnDeaL]

I just want to say that I disagree with Deck's assertion that Voodoom gaining a new ability would detract from its essence. If its essence was a mon that could partner well and work great with support, then it lost it's essence long ago and giving it the ability to set up with Nasty Plot by itself almost equally removes this essence.

Personally I don't think Voodoom has any "essence" left other than as a special attacker with good, but no longer amazing, coverage. I think what's most aligned with its practical essence (not it's concept essence since I think that's moot now) is adding more coverage to it.

I somewhat disagree with the claims that Voodoom lacks the ability to set up. The calc that Exclaimer showed is misleading as it is from a Guts boosted Colossoil, which while is increasingly more common, it still doesn't outspeed Vodoom and Voodoom (without a boost) OHKOes Colossoil lacking AV.

252 SpA Life Orb Voodoom Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Colossoil: 577-681 (141.7 - 167.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Life Orb Voodoom Aura Sphere vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Colossoil: 385-455 (94.5 - 111.7%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO

 

[Deck Knight]

If Sludge Bomb / Wave is too much, Flash Cannon provides Voodoom a way to address Fairies that is not nearly as effective against the listed Tapu Koko, Tapu Fini, and Azumarill. It can still beat Unaware Clefable with a SpD drop rather than Poison status, but Clef can switch out of a bad drop or just CM in Voodoom's face. Thunderbolt and Flash Cannon combined cover the same list of threats DarkSlay mentioned, but in two moves instead of one.

As long as we're talking Electric coverage, Volt Switch gives Voodoom added utility as a pivot that has offensive presence. This would seem to run counter to Voodoom's original intent as a offensive core partner w/ passing capabilities, but honestly Voodoom would be fine if Baton Pass chains were still legal. They aren't though, so Voodoom needs some role compression to gain relevance.