CAP Viability Ranking Thread (B Rank Filtering)

[NumberCruncher]

I would heavily consider Greninja for S Rank at this point in time. Before Protean Greninja actually takes a good number of priority hits astoundingly well. Greninja is so fast, that even some Choice Scarfers are going to struggle trying to hit this thing before Greninja gets an attack in. Life Orb Greninja hits like a truck, and Gunk Shot lets it get past Special Walls that aren't weak to Ice Beam. Many of Greninja's checks and counters can actually get hard countered by it if it carries the right movepool.

None of these traits on its own would really justify an S Ranking, but when you add it all together, it equals a 'mon that will smash and most likely kill something before the opponent has a chance to respond, and if the opponent does respond, many times the response will fall apart through no fault of the opponent's. Talonflame is one of the few Pokemon that can actually counter Greninja at any stage of the game, but Talonflame isn't that hard for Greninja to switch away from in this format, while it's pretty hard to get Talonflame in safely against Greninja without a sack.

 

[heartofgold]

I'm going to second Greninja for S Rank. It's damn near impossible to stop, and it's got an incredibly varied movepool that it uses very well. The mixed set, running Low Kick and Gunk Shot, is particularly troublesome, and breaks through a lot of things that would otherwise counter it. Its speed is really what sets it apart, though - nothing short of Stratagem is going to get by it, and Strata's looking less and less useful in the ORAS meta.

I'd also agree with Mega-Altaria for A rank. It functions as a sort of Mega-Mence in miniature, and with even a single Dragon Dance it can blow a game wide open. Two, and you're pretty much done for. That said, it has some obvious issues - priority status really cripples it, though that's true of every sweeper, and Dragon/Fairy, while an INCREDIBLE defensive typing, is probably also the most prepared-for typing out there. Everyone runs coverage moves that beat you. I also feel like M-Altaria will single-handedly make Skarm more viable in CAP, but we'll see. Either way, it's a devastating threat that, while not perfect, can absolutely break teams.

Finally, let's talk Mega-Slowbro. The goofy looking thing is quickly becoming one my favorite new Megas, but as far as Viability goes I'm not sure where to slot it in. It's very much a feast-or-famine Pokemon: either it's going to get set up and easily nab 4-6 KOs, or it's going to get blocked at every turn and eventually fall to residual damage. Much like Revenankh, it's very reliant on getting boosts to really do damage. Slowbro's thing's got bulk in spades, able to tank a +6 Cawmodore's attack and do severe damage in return. It can also set up on Colossoil, which is pretty sweet. That said, CAP is full of heavy hitting Special sweepers that can prey on Slowbro's weaknesses (Cyclohm, Krill, Syclant, and Aurumoth), and the occasional Toxic Tomohawk can completely ruin your game plan. I'm interested to see if anyone else has tried it to any great success. For the time being, I'd say A- rank, but I could be talked down from there.

I also think some of our current 'mons could stand to be revisited, but that's a post for another time.

 

[Gerard]

Slowbro suffers from the recurring theme in CAP of Water Immune Poison Types (though at lest it doesn't get as screwed as azumarril does), in that it HAS to use psyshock + scald thus limiting it to only Slack Off + Calm Mind to set up. It's much harder to set up too as many common pokemon carry moves like Haze or Clear Smog and Slowbro is never gonna move before any of them. And finally it's huge defense is less important in such a specially biased meta as CAP. While MSlowbro is a good pokemon I don't think it's gonna be sweeping many teams unless you give it a good amount of support.

 

[Da Pizza Man]

it HAS to use psyshock + scald thus limiting it to only Slack Off + Calm Mind to set up.

This is just not true, double dance slowbro is rather viable, this is like saying Cawmadore has to have a move to deal with Cycholm (It doesn't have one, but you get the point). Agreeing with heartofgold here, A- seems very appropriate

 

[Animus Majulous]

While mega slowbro is not S rank, and I don't think its personally A+ either, it walls all the physical attackers in the meta. I mean, u-turn from a max attack syclant only does 25-29% and knock off from colo does a little bit more, but both are weak. Sure, it loses against some special attackers, but if it sets up 1 or 2 calm minds, it doesn't even matter. Like Sableye Mega, it counters teams and simply beats them after the couple checks are removed. I do think, because of typing and stat spread, that Mega Sableye is a little better, and is A- or A rank, but Slowbro is not far behind and I would put him at B+ or A- as a preliminary rank. If someone actually runs hazeahawk (so far its been far less used after ORAS), then you lose your double calm minds. But unless tomo carries toxic, what is it gonna do? Nothing except get scald burned and then psyshocked to death. At best it sacrifices itself to remove the calm mind boosts which Slowbro can fairly easily put up again either immediately or later in the game. And finally Cap is not entirely specially based. Not at all. Colo is on half the team... which means that you can pretty easily set up on a colossoil or any other physical attacker.

 

[JigglykongisFUM16]

With my experience with mega slowbro, toxic completely destroys unless You have a heal beller on your team. That being said, if you get enough calm mind boosts, it can defeat many of its threats such as greninja and auru. However, it needs the boosts to beat those threats, and is best as a late game sweeper.Without haze on a team, and the nonexistant crits due to shell armor, Slowbro is deadly after two boosts.
A- is my vote for Slowbro Mega.

(I finally get to contribute, lol)

 

[HeaLnDeaL]

I nominate Mega Beedrill for B+ or A-.

Animus gave me his Beedrill team to review before possibly posting it in the sample teams. In order to give some more concrete opinions on the team, this led me to testing it out in 40-some matches, both on and off the ladder. Beedrill is almost a prototypical glass cannon... but with a super powerful and fast U-turn.

First off, let me say that Beedrill will not automatically die to every physical priority move. He's frail, but not that frail. In one match, he took a +1 Arghonaut Aqua Jet and lost about 70% of his HP. Yeah, it hurts, but it doesn't kill him. Rather, the thing that kills him is priority when used on top of hazard damage. Being stealth rock weak and wanting to pivot like crazy is the real thing that hinders Mega Beedrill.

When Jolly, Mega Bee outspeeds Heatran and Mollux... even when they are scarfed, which is super handy since he can OHKO with Drill Run. However, when Beedrill isn't hitting something super effectively or when he is facing tough physical walls, his damage output is fairly mediocre. He can't muscle through Chansey, and U-turn only does about 45-50% on (unboosted) Mega Slowbro. Poison Jab also fails to OHKO Pyroak. Colossoil can do a fake out and sucker punch combo that has a good chance of killing the Bee, and Bee can't just willynilly switch due to fears of pursuit. That said, if Bee protects against fake out, then he has a decent chance to survive the Sucker Punch (if it's not Guts Boosted and if Bee took no prior damage) and U-turn out.

Obvious overall notes: nice speed, passable attack, but weak to spikes and SR and this allows priority to strike him later in the match.

 

[jas61292]

I'd like to post agreement with a few of the things posted so far, specifically, Greninja for S rank and Altaria for A. Greninja is just so good its not even funny. While it can't beat everything, obviously, it can beat most Pokemon in the game with the right move. Of course, it can't do all this in one set, but until you figure out what moves it has, it is nearly impossible to switch into it safely, and even then, the chances that you actually have a good counter for it are fairly low. With that said, it is frail and can be revenge killed fairly easily by scarfers or priority, however, before you even get the opportunity, it will probably have done some major damage. Altaria on the other hand is a Pokemon that does not immediately threaten like Greninja, but can, if played well, sweep large portions of teams on its own with very little need for support. Pixilate return hits really hard, especially when boosted. Furthermore, it can viably go either all offensive or bulky for its DD set, each of which needs to be handled slightly differently. What's more, it can also run a more defensive set and forgo DD entirely. However, unlike the Salamence that it tries to imitate, it can't just set up on anything. It also has big problems with guys like Skarmory and Cawmodore, plus many others if it goes mono attacking. Incredibly good, but not meta defining by itself. A perfect example of A if you ask me.

I would also like to touch on a couple of other mons I think are A rank.

First off, I'd like to propose Mega Gallade for A rank. Basically, it does similar things to Mega Medicham, but trading sheer instant wall cracking power for the ability to truly sweep. Its typing is absolutely wonderful for a physical attacker in this tier, as it is one of the few Pokemon able to fairly reliably take down both Tomohawk and Chansey, while also carrying good enough stats to break through other walls that take its hits neutrally, like Cyclohm. It does have issues with Reflect/Haze Tomo, but unless it is packing both, Gallade will be able to break it easily, and Tomo will always be scared to switch in. Beyond that, the good speed and Swords Dance let it be an impressive sweeper. The only real question with it is what move to run next to its STABs. It has a lot of options, and you really need to tailor it to your team, as each leaves it vulnerable to certain Pokemon. But with any of them, it is a fearsome Pokemon that teams need to be very wary of.

Secondly, another Mega I think is A rank would be Diancie. In a metagame with very few great mixed attackers, Mega Diancie is the best of them. Fairy + Ground coverage on the special side is nearly unresisted, and the few things that do are nailed hard by Diamond Storm. Like with Altaria, Skarmory can give it issues, but it packs such great special power that, despite its Steel/Flying typing, Cawmodore hates to switch into it (for reference, from full health, a 4/0 Caw is 2HKOd 20% of the time by 252 SpA Moonblast, assuming Sitrus Berry [On a funny note, that 20% becomes 0% with SR due to always having the first hit put it in Sitrus range]). Another neat thing with Diancie is the good bulk it packs before it Mega Evolves. I have more than a few times won battles by having Diancie not mega evolve late game in order to tank a hit from sweepers like Syclant and dispatch of them easily. This is especially notable on the special side if you pair it with Tyranitar or Hippowdon. As a last note, Diancie almost always will have a 4th moveslot you can play around with. Some people like Protect so that it can get its good speed unhindered. Calm Mind is also a good option to really pack a punch. Personally I've actually been using Hidden Power Fire. While this unfortunately costs a speed IV causing it to lose what would have been ties with Kitsunoh and others, it gives it an easy win vs Skarmory, a good move for threatening Ferrothorn, and a perfectly accurate option for picking off Syclant who are threatening to sweep. Overall though, its ability to clean through teams with just its main 3 moves is what makes this an A rank mon in my eyes. EDIT: Oh, and Magic Bounce. Forgot to mention that, but near immunity to crippling status is always amazing for a sweeper.

 

[heartofgold]

I haven't played much with Gallade or Beedrill, but I can definitely see the merits of both. Beedrill's overall frailty and hazard weakness make it hard for me to see it cracking into A-, and I'd expect a solid B+ rating, but I'd like to try a few matches before I start throwing votes around.

I do REALLY like Diancie, having tried a couple matches with it. It's in a very nice Speed tier, and obviously hits like a truck. The ability to go mixed is handy, and Diamond Storm is overall a great STAB Rock to have in your back pocket. My main issue is two-fold; for one, it's in the group of Megas that REALLY wishes turn order got decided after Mega-evolving, not before. While it can switch in on a number of walls and M-evolve, generally it keeps it from being able to revenge-kill unless you've had the foresight to make the switch, which can be frustrating. On top of that, the cost of running HP Fire is HUGE, and it really does need HP Fire, in my opinion. That 110 Speed tier is jam packed with threats, and losing the ability to tie them is significantly frustrating. Overall, I think it's still an amazing Pokemon, but I'm leaning more towards A- right now. Maybe I just need to see it more.

Going over some older Pokemon in our Viability rankings, what does everyone think of dropping Mega-Venusaur, maybe to A- or even B+? I'm loathe to drop Megas right now, since clearly we're all a bit star-struck, trying out the shiny new toys ORAS brought to the table. That said, it seems like its niche has taken a significant hit. There's a number of new, Psychic-abusing Megas that can completely eat it up, and as a defensive 'mon it faces stiff competition from some of the new players, including Sableye and Slowbro, as well as Mega-Metagross, who both fills the niche of Fairy-check and absolutely crushes it one-on-one. I don't think it's bad by any means, simply not as good as it used to be. Any thoughts?

 

[jas61292]

I'd probably agree that Mega Venu has indeed lost a bit of luster with the new games, but I would be hesitant to drop it out of the As alltogether. Its still the best at what it does, and what it does is quite useful. It just has a lot more competition, and there are more Pokemon that are not scared of it. I'd say that A- is probably the best place for it at the moment.

I also just want to briefly comment on Mega Beedrill, which has been mentioned with regard to the A levels. Honestly, I'm not that impressed with it. It does one thing, and it does it pretty well, but its not amazing, it requires a lot of support, and has significant trouble with a lot of common mons. Its pathetic bulk and low starting speed make Protect a necessity for it, meaning it is typically going to only have STABs + either Drill Run or Knock Off. Either way, Tomohawk can take anything thrown at it and easily KO in return, while if it goes with the generally better coverage of Drill Run, Cawmodore considers it possibly the best set up bait ever. Not to mention the often mentioned priority weakness it has. And its important to remember that in general, Beedrill is not that strong for a mega. Its niche is high speed revenge killing and U-Turn spamming. And while I'm not going to say it is not good at that job, it is not going to be sweeping large portions of the metagame and requires plenty of support to do its job right. If anything, that fits the definition of C rank to a tee, and C+ is, by definition, probably what I'd say is most appropriate for it. However, having seen it in action, it does do better than that description might imply, and so a B- might be more appropriate. However, I would be hard pressed to see how one could argue it was much better than that when so many of the top metagame mons have so little to fear from it.

 

[sparktrain]

Okay, here's a list of my nominations

Greninja --> S Rank
Greninja is absolutely an S Rank threat, just as much here as it is in OU. While of course it can't carry coverage for everything, it can coverage large amounts of the metagame with its new tutor moves Gunk Shot and Low Kick. Low Kick is freaking awesome for hitting Colossoil; smacking AV variants expecting an Ice Beam or something with a 120 BP STAB Fighting move never gets old. Its hell for offense to face, and causes some serious headaches for stall as well.

Mega Beedrill --> B- Rank
It's not a bad mon, but being walled by Tomohawk, Skarmory, and Cawmodore isn't a great thing in this meta. Being a U-turner weak to Stealth Rock wears it down quickly, and can end up being dead weight versus some stall teams (besides the utility provided by Knock Off). However, its redeeming quality is that it's deadly versus offense thanks to its amazing speed tier and power, so I wouldn't go as far as saying it's C Rank material.

Mega Slowbro --> A- rank
I'm a little torn whether or not this is A or A- material, but the fact is that it's quite a powerful win condition, and being a Psychic type that can absorb Colossoil's Knock Offs is nothing short of impressive. On a similar note, regular bro can probably fit in B+ rank as it's an effective wall with Regenerator, and works well in plenty of stall cores.

Mega Swampert --> B- rank
I'm honestly a little disappointed in this guy, but that's likely due to Tomohawk's presence. Tomohawk can stall out rain turns if needed, and can tough out Mega Swampert's hits with Roost and Reflect. It's a boon for rain in that it's a step up from Kabutops though, which I guess is something.

Mega Audino --> D rank
omg so viable. While it's nothing impressive, I've used it a little bit, and it does have a very small niche in that its extremely tanky all around in comparison to the new Calm Mind boosters, and can pivot around with Regenerator early game before its final sweep. The catch? Unboosted 80 SpA isn't gonna be doing much to anything, so it needs like 2 or 3 Calm Minds before it can even pose a legitimate threat.

Mega Altaria --> A rank
Agreeing with the above propositions for A rank; its unique Dragon/Fairy typing lets it check a myriad of threats in the metagame, and is quite versatile in that it can run several sets effectively.

Mega Glalie --> C- rank
Syclant arguably outclasses Glalie as a Spikes lead due to its higher Speed and better coverage; Glalie's only real advantage is being able to blow holes in the opposing team with Explosion, plus access to Freeze Dry is kinda neat.

Politoed --> B- rank
Why Politoed is in the same rank as a garbage mon like Ninetales is beyond me. Supporting an entire playstyle, for one, is enough of a reason to bump it up, but the fact that it can run several viable sets (Scarf, Specs, Damp Rock), should be more of a reason to move it. Ninetales is completely outclassed by Zard-Y; I'd even use a manual setter like Heat Rock Tomohawk before it to be honest, since it can actually wall things.

Mega Lopunny --> B+ rank
In a similar fashion to Beedrill, it's extremely powerful versus offense thanks to its high power and amazing speed tier, beating out some of CAP's fastest threats. It has much more utility than Beedrill since it has Healing Wish and Fake Out, and can make effective use of SubPass thanks to the switches it forces. Being walled by Tomo is kinda eh, but then again lots of physical attackers are.


I'm agreeing with a lot of the proposed changes so far. I'll possibly write up some more nominations soon.

 

[Tadasuke]

**UPDATE**
​

Greninja to S
Altaria (Mega) to A
Gallade (Mega) to A
Metagross (Mega) to A
Diancie (Mega) to A-
Gengar to A-
Manectric (Mega) to A-
Slowbro (Mega) to A-
Syclant to A-
Diggersby to B+
Heracross (Mega) to B+
Lopunny (Mega) to B+
Sharpedo (Mega) to B
Skarmory to B+
Venusaur (Mega) to B+
Latias (Mega) to B
Beedrill (Mega) to B+
Latios (Mega) to B-
Magnezone to B-
Swampert (Mega) to B-
Politoed to B-
Pidgeot (Mega) to C+
Sceptile (Mega) to C+
Camerupt (Mega) to C
Glalie (Mega) to C
Aggron (Mega) to D
Audino (Mega) to D
Steelix (Mega) to D

**UPDATE**​

 

[jas61292]

So, I just want to say that I very, very much disagree with Colossoil for S. In fact, if anything ORAS made it worse than it was. It, as a CAP, obviously got nothing new, while in the meantime new Megas for Diancie, Gallade, Altaria and others all provide powerful new threats that Colo fails to deal with. Furthermore, Greninja acquiring Low Kick means Colo can't even risk switching into in anymore, even with an Assault Vest. Frankly, I find that Colossoil covers far fewer top threats than it used to, and was thinking of suggesting that it actually drop to A- in this new metagame.

 

[HeaLnDeaL]

I have a number of problems with this new list. I'll just focus on a few things for now to prevent a rage post.

I have no idea why Mega Sharpedo is at C-. His Ice Fang even hits Cyclohm pretty hard, and it able to KO one that is under half of its health. Great abilities, passable movepool, and really just a solid mon. His boosted defenses and pretty nifty typing mean that the only priority moves he has to watch out for are Beloom's mach punch and Strategem's vacuum wave. I've only recently started using him, but he is definitely a threat. Easily B+ material. (Seriously ranking him lower than Mega Sceptile is a huge error).

Also, I have to disagree with Beedrill at B-, and think B+ is more appropriate, though I'd be willing to settle with a plain B if needed.

I also just want to briefly comment on Mega Beedrill, which has been mentioned with regard to the A levels. Honestly, I'm not that impressed with it. It does one thing, and it does it pretty well, but its not amazing, it requires a lot of support, and has significant trouble with a lot of common mons. Its pathetic bulk and low starting speed make Protect a necessity for it, meaning it is typically going to only have STABs + either Drill Run or Knock Off. Either way, Tomohawk can take anything thrown at it and easily KO in return, while if it goes with the generally better coverage of Drill Run, Cawmodore considers it possibly the best set up bait ever. Not to mention the often mentioned priority weakness it has. And its important to remember that in general, Beedrill is not that strong for a mega. Its niche is high speed revenge killing and U-Turn spamming. And while I'm not going to say it is not good at that job, it is not going to be sweeping large portions of the metagame and requires plenty of support to do its job right. If anything, that fits the definition of C rank to a tee, and C+ is, by definition, probably what I'd say is most appropriate for it. However, having seen it in action, it does do better than that description might imply, and so a B- might be more appropriate. However, I would be hard pressed to see how one could argue it was much better than that when so many of the top metagame mons have so little to fear from it.

I have to argue against Beedrill only doing one thing and one thing only. It's speed, power, and access to u-turn let it be all of a late-game sweeper, an early-game scout, and a mid-game revenge killer. Simply having the most powerful U-turn in the game is huge. Sure, Tomohawk can stop it. But Tomohawk can stop the majority of the metagame, so I don't see this as a reason to doom Bee's viability rating. In terms of other top metagame mons, it rips apart the fairy royalty (gard, altaria, and sylveon), it potentially threatens Colossoil, it does respectable pivot damage to Mega Bro, eats the Latis alive, and is faster than Greninja (and Strategem for that matter). Saying that so many of the top metagame mons have so little to fear from it is a disservice to the long list of top threats that it can threaten. Being insanely fast and being able to pivot is huge. It needs hazard control to fully utilize this, so I can imagine that crossing into A- territory is unrealistic, but there are a number of suitable teammates to help with hazards.

So, I just want to say that I very, very much disagree with Colossoil for S. In fact, if anything ORAS made it worse than it was. It, as a CAP, obviously got nothing new, while in the meantime new Megas for Diancie, Gallade, Altaria and others all provide powerful new threats that Colo fails to deal with. Furthermore, Greninja acquiring Low Kick means Colo can't even risk switching into in anymore, even with an Assault Vest. Frankly, I find that Colossoil covers far fewer top threats than it used to, and was thinking of suggesting that it actually drop to A- in this new metagame.

Now here's something from Jas that for the most part I agree with. I'd personally be fine with either A or A-, since the list of new megas that can threaten him is quite notable.

Summary of my thoughts thus far:
Sharpedo to B+
Beedrill to B or B+
Colossoil to A or A-

 

[Tadasuke]

HeaLnDeaL and jas61292
Most of the undiscussed movements were heavily discussed in the room. Now that I see that others are weighing contrary opinions, they'll be moved.

 

[sparktrain]

My thoughts on why Colossoil is, and should stay S rank:

Colossoil's impact on the metagame is frankly unparalleled. Its movepool, while concise, is quite effective and allows it to play several roles simultaneously. It has two equally viable abilities, one being Guts, meaning status turns it into an offensive powerhouse, and Rebound, which allows it to bounce back hazards as well as status effects. It is the premier offensive spinner thanks to its good speed tier, great Attack and access to one of the most powerful Knock Offs in the game, only shy of Bisharp and Crawdaunt. It also is one of the most effective Pursuit trappers thanks to its high attack and ability to easily come in on Ghosts or Psychics. What makes Colossoil such an amazing pivot, however, is U-turn and its typing, when coupled with AV, lets it check special attackers such as, but not limited to: Cyclohm, both Latis, Mollux, Mega Manectric, Stratagem, etc... AV Colossoil can tank ridiculously powerful attacks in a pinch if absolutely necessary, such as Mega Gardevoir's Hyper Voice (252 SpA Pixilate Mega Gardevoir Hyper Voice vs. 172 HP / 84 SpD Assault Vest Krookodile: 360-426 (80 - 94.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO). So, Colossoil's a great tank, pivot, status absorber/deflector, support mon... but on top of all this it has a great offensive presence with base 122 attack, meaning it can even function as a late-game win condition; Choice Scarf Colossoil, while it has fallen somewhat from popularity, can still perform as an effective scout early-game, and sweep late-game with Earthquake, or perhaps even Knock Off if its checks are removed. Although usage =//= viability, there's a reason Tomohawk and Colossoil are consistently the top two in usage for 1630/1760 stats; they're both amazing supporters, metagame defining, and the best at what they do. Why am I mentioning all this, especially when people already know what Colossoil does? Because Colossoil is next to unrivaled in these roles; rivaled as a Rapid Spinner by only Tomohawk really, and rivaled as a Guts abuser by none.

In short, Colossoil performs numerous supporting roles more effectively than any other Pokemon in the metagame, is a great pivot due to its typing and U-turn, and has a great physically offensive presence to boot. The fact that there are some new Pokemon which can beat it or wall it isn't enough of a reason to move it down; especially since a few of the ones mentioned (Mega Diancie, Mega Gallade), can't switch at all without being two shot by EQ+Sucker Punch, or if they haven't mega evolved yet, 2HKOed by Earthquake.

If losing to some new Pokemon is enough of a reason to move Colossoil down, despite it being perfectly able to pivot on all of them with U-turn or two shot them with EQ+Sucker Punch, then we should seriously look into moving Tomohawk down because it's easily walled and OHKOed by Fairies and destroyed by some of the new megas.

I'll post this here too

also

<Plus-> colossoil gets da rebound
<Plus-> the best basketball player
<Plus-> ever
<Plus-> he's over 8 fucking feet
<Fuzznip> and he's dark

and this: S Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are amazing in the CAP metagame. These Pokemon are usually able to perform a variety of roles effectively, or can just do one extremely well. Their use has low risk involved and high reward exerted. Pokemon in this rank have very few flaws that are patched up by numerous positive traits.

edit: wow it already got dropped lol.

 

[Tadasuke]

sparktrain It'll be dropped for the time being until both arguing parties can actually have a conversation about it. I need to be somewhat impartial on this since I'm definitely 100% biased for Colossoil being S.

 

[sparktrain]

Fair enough, I'd be willing to discuss this in the CAP Project room along with some pro- and anti-S-rank debaters sometime. And just in case it wasn't clear in my post, I'm arguing Colossoil is S-rank for its myriad of unrivaled support characteristics, not just its offensive potential; its good offensive presence is a bonus.

 

[Animus Majulous]

I'll post my thoughts on the current ORAS cap viability. First I'll address Colossoil. A+ seems like a weird place for colossoil, so when talk of it being moved came up, I was actually pretty excited. It either seemed better, like S rank, or not quite as good as it used to be, like A. Moving it below A-, I hope, is out of the question as whatever argument you make to lower colossoil should not make him lower than A-. Like sparktrain said, he does too many things well to put him very low. At the same time, like Jas said, the introductions of new megas like mega bro, mega altaria, mega gallade, etc. can either wall and set up or just freely check it. However, I've tried and really liked momentum colossoil which trades a dark move for u-turn. With u-turn, colo can nicely switch out of threats and give you good switch ins. And it's the best spinner in the meta by far. Yet, while it is good at a few things, and great at a couple, it does not have infinite versatility that the other S rank mons have. I am happy to have colo moved to A or have it stay at A+, but it's not God. It is meta defining, but if you don't have a colo check on your team, you normally don't lose; and you can always throw on a tomohawk. I do think that u-turn is necessary on it post ORAS. In a way, u-turn for colo is like baton pass for tomo.

I don't want to list out everything, but the entirety of B needs to be tested and or changed. Many of the Pokemon in B never see use asides from the cap pokes, and I honestly can't say enough about anyone to move them. After this week we will begin a new DHC for ORAS to fix this, but you can start debating the B mons.

Mega Beedrill is a solid B at least, but definitely not an A rank mon. It's just too frail. But, it has the best u-turn and poison stab in the game.

That's about all I'm going to say right now. After my finals I will open a DHC thread and the viability endeavors will be continued.

 

[Tadasuke]

Just to defer a little bit from the topic at hand, I want to bring up a quick question. I feel as if Kyurem-B, Mega Pinsir, and Sylveon are all at rankings to high for the ORAS metagame. KyuB having lost a lot of potential with all of the new megas coming in and being able to threaten non-scarfed sets offensively, while defensive walls like Clefable can shut it out. Mega Pinsir is simply outclassed as an offensive sweeper, and Stealth Rocks have seen a huge increase in usage, dropping its ability to sweep. Lastly, Sylveon is just outclassed by Clefable. Hyper Voice is nice to hit through subs, but it has no real way to switch in on powerful physical attacks.

 

[HeaLnDeaL]

I absolutely disagree with lowering Sylveon. Sylveon has two incredibly good sets, one of which can take physical hits with ease and the other can rip giant holes in the HP of even things that resist it. In fact just last night spark, queen, and I all talked about Sylveon and actually agreed that it should be raised to A. Fairy is great, and Sylveon is the best non-mega fairy we have. Clefable might have more defensive abilities but offensively is vastly inferior (and clefable has marginally better physical bulk and very noticeably inferior special bulk). Also, more new megas lose to Sylveon than those that can beat it.

 

[cbrevan]

I also believe Sylveon should move up to A. Even if Sylveon is outclassed defensively with Clefable, its just as viable as it. Sylveon's choice spec set in particular fulfills a role that Clefable can not, which is out right nuke stuff right odd the bat. In fact, Sylveon's Hyper Voice hits harder than Mega Gardevoir's Hyper Voice and significantly harder than Clefable's Moonblast right of the bat. This gives Sylveon access to one of the hardest hitting attacks in the tier, and makes Sylveon incredibly hard to switch into if not Chansey or a resist. Also specially defensive Sylveon kinda sucks, its already insanely bulky on the special side and specially defensive can't tank a physical hit at all. Physical defensive actually lets it tank rogue Earthquakes and Psyshocks, while still walling special attackers.

 

[Da Pizza Man]

Malamar C+ --> Unranked

Okay seriously why the actual fuck is this thing ranked. It's a terrible pokemon, its outclassed by Colossoil as a physical dark type and by Aurumoth and Mega Galladed and Megagross as a physical psychic type. It relies on superpower for everything which can be easily negated by switching into Necturna or Kitsunoh, two very common pokemon. The fact that it is higher ranked than stuff with actual niches like Alomomola and Fidgit digust me, hell even Galvantula has more niches

 

[sparktrain]

Malamar C+ --> Unranked

Okay seriously why the actual fuck is this thing ranked. It's a terrible pokemon, its outclassed by Colossoil as a physical dark type and by Aurumoth and Mega Galladed and Megagross as a physical psychic type. It relies on superpower for everything which can be easily negated by switching into Necturna or Kitsunoh, two very common pokemon. The fact that it is higher ranked than stuff with actual niches like Alomomola and Fidgit digust me, hell even Galvantula has more niches

It was featured in the dark horse project a while back, so it ending up getting a ranking. But yeah, I agree it should drop.

 

[cbrevan]

We forgot Mega Sableye guys. It should be A- imo, Magic Bounce is a godly ability for a Calm Minder, it has decent defenses, which can both be boosted through Will-O-Wisp or Calm Mind, and it's base form isn't complete trash. The list of things that stops it is pretty small, basically Chansey, Fairy Types, Zhard-X, Bulk Up Talonflame, and Haze Tomohawk, all of which can be handled by its teammates while it spreads burn and boosts up on a good portion of the tier. It roles over walls like Ferrothorn and Chansey, and thanks to mega evo mechanics, can set up a Calm Mind or burn something the turn it mega evos. It has counters, but once they are removed, it can steamroll over entire teams.