Celebi (Analysis)

#1
First full analysis, probably could have picked an easier pokemon than Celebi lol, but here we go. Big shoutout to StarGengar, who made most of this skeleton bit, I'll be moving this forward from here on. Thanks for any help! I'll get the write up going once I get some feedback.



http://serebii.net/pokedex-bw/251.shtml

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[Overview]

-Possibily the most versatile grass type, Celebi is capable of fitting many different roles (Wall, Sweeper, Supporter and Baton Passer), thanks to its wide movepool coupled with 100 base stats all around and reliable recovery
-Wide support movepool with Heal Bell, Thunder Wave, Dual Screens, Stealth Rock and U-Turn just to name a few.
-Access to Calm Mind, Swords Dance and the rare Nasty Plot make Celebi a fearsome, bulky set up sweeper, being also capable of Baton Passing those boosts
-Its grass typing, bulk and powerful attacks make Celebi a great check to bulky waters like Jellicent, Suicune and Vaporeon
-A total of 7 crippling weaknesses to very common attacking types, most notably to Ice, Fire, Dark and Bug attacks, with useful resistances to ground, water, fighting and electric attacks
-Faces serious competition with Virizion and Ferrothorn on most teams, both having more specialized stats and better defensive and offensive typing
-Benefits greatly from the boost given to Giga Drain this generation, although not much else has changed

[SET]
name: Nasty Plot Sweeper
move 1: Nasty Plot
move 2: Recover
move 3: Giga Drain
move 4: Earth Power / Psychic / Hidden Power Fire
item: Leftovers / Life Orb
nature: Modest
evs: 220 HP / 252 SpA / 36 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]

-100 base SpAtk and excellent bulk are just enough to make Celebi an effective Nasty Plot user
-With Giga Drain, Life Orb and Nasty Plot, Celebi will be healing large chunks of health just for attacking, nullifying the Life Orb recoil
-The last move is tricky, as if you choose Hidden Power Fire, you are walled by Heatran, but with Earth Power you lose to Skarmory and have a harder time with Ferrothorn.
-Different from Virizion because it sets up faster and has instant recovery, Recover helps set up against weak attackers
-Nice bulk + Recover makes it surprisingly tough to take down
-Outspeeds all unboosted Tyranitar even with Hidden Power Fire while maintaining excellent attacking power and bulk

[ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

-Different coverage moves
-Celebi despises steel types like Ferrothorn, Heatran and Skarmory, as even if running the appropriate attack he can still lose to them (Balloon for example), making Pokemon like Conkeldurr and Heatran excellent partners to Celebi. Heatran also hates bulky waters, who Celebi handles well.
-Dragonite, Latias and Salamence can take Celebi´s attacks all day and set up on him, so bulky water types with Ice Beam like Suicune, and even Ice Shard users like Mamoswine make good teammates for Celebi. Water types also share good synergy with Celebi.
-Celebi resists most priority attacks, but has no way to boost its average speed, and faster sweepers (like Gengar and Hydreigon) often carry super effective attacks on Celebi, so is vital to take them out before attempting a sweep
- 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe without Recover for pure sweeper

[SET]
name: Tinkerbell
move 1: Leaf Storm
move 2: Thunder Wave
move 3: Hidden Power Fire / Earth Power / Psychic
move 4: Recover
item: Life Orb
nature: Modest
evs: 232 HP / 240 SpA / 36 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]

-This set combines Celebi´s support capabilities with his high offensive power
-Leaf Storm is your strongest attack, and will likely 2HKO anything that doesn´t resist it and is not named Blissey / Chansey
-Excellent at spreading paralysis to support slower teams with sweepers such as Conkeldurr or Scrafty
-Choice of coverage move, as with other sets, is choosing what you want to hit and need coverage for
-Recover for longevity

[ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

-Hit and run attacker so entry hazards help it a lot
-Has coverage problems for an attacker, but many switch ins hate either being paralyzed or eating an attack, so good prediction is required
-New Team Preview really helps with this, as you can predict what your opponent's answer to Celebi will be, and either attack straight out or paralyze

[SET]
name: Defensive
move 1: Giga Drain / Grass Knot
move 2: Hidden Power Fire
move 3: Thunder Wave / Leech Seed
move 4: Recover
item: Leftovers
nature: Bold
evs: 252 HP / 220 Def / 36 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]

-With this set, Celebi has many ways of helping its teammates
-Thunder Wave makes slower and/or set up sweepers life easier (like Haxorus and Metagross), while Leech Seed will help Celebi and its teammates stick around with a little HP return
-Giga Drain further replenishes Celebi's health and the boost in power make it more viable, but Grass Knot is more reliable against foes such as Gyarados
-With 100 base in HP and both defenses, Celebi can easily do its jobs and Recover any damage taken

[ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

-The evs listed are for maximizing Celebi´s physical walling capabilities, and 36 Spe evs are needed to outspeed Jolly Tyranitar by 1 point (without Hidden Power Fire you can use 32 Speed evs)
-Again, many viable coverage moves are available. Hidden Power Fire is recommended because Ferrothorn is keen to switch in and set up Spikes. Hidden Power Ice is very good for Landorus, Dragonite and Salamence. Earth Power bashes Heatran and Excadrill. Psychic even earns a mention for being good against Fighting types
-Heal Bell can be used instead of your support move to heal status from your team, Perish Song for win condition
-Once half of your opponent´s team is paralyzed, slow, bulky sweepers like Metagross, Tyranitar and Scrafty will have an easy time setting up and sweeping
-Heatran and Gyarados make great teammates to this Celebi, as they appreciate the slowed pace. With them together you also create a pretty solid fire/water/grass core.

[SET]
name: Choice
move 1: Leaf Storm
move 2: Earth Power
move 3: Hidden Power Fire / Hidden Power Ice
move 4: Trick / Psychic
item: Choice Specs / Choice Scarf
nature: Timid
evs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]

-With Choice Specs, Celebi will do immense damage with Leaf Storm (which has the same power as a Draco Meteor), denting any switch-in even if resisted
-As an advantage to other Choiced attackers like Hydreigon, Celebi can Trick his item on a wall (like Blissey and Ferrothorn) to severely cripple it.
-Coverage attacks for any of Fighting types, Steel types, Dragons / Landorus etc.

[ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

-When using any Choice item, always run a Timid nature to either tie with base 100 speed pokemon when using Specs, and to outspeed Scarf Hydreigon when using a Scarf, and at worst tie with other base 100 speed scarfers such as Jirachi.
-While most Ferrothorn, Skarmory and Bronzong hate being Tricked with a Choice item, they will be a problem if you want Celebi to sweep, so fire types like Heatran and Rotom-H that can take out them are really appreciated.
-If you have HP Fire, you will have no options to hit dragon types (mainly Latias, Latios, Salamence and Hydreigon), making Weavile and Mamoswine great partners for Celebi, as both can sweep a weakened team with their high attack and priority in Ice Shard (hovewere be warry that they share a fire weakness with Celebi). Bulky waters like Suicune and Vaporeon can also be good partners to Celebi, as they tend to carry Ice Beam and have a good type synergy with him.
-Baton Pass / U-turn for scouting

[TEAM OPTIONS]

-Important to remember type synergy with Celebi unique resistances and weaknesses
-Fire types, Water Types, and Dragon types all synergize well with Celebi
-Examples include Heatran, Gyrados, and Hydreigon
-Both defensive and offensive sets really appreciate entry hazards

[Optional Changes]

-Trick Room is a decent option, even though Celebi is fast, because it can set up the Trick Room, take the next hit, and then U-turn into your Trick Room sweeper
-Baton Pass, but outclassed by Mew mostly
-Swords Dance is generally inferior to Nasty Plot because of Celebi's limited physical movepool, and really should be only used on Baton Pass sets
-Celebi gets Stealth Rock, and usually has a moveslot that can be dedicated to a support move, but there are more productive things Celebi can be doing
-Celebi is able to set up Dual Screens reliably, and even gets Healing Wish to rejuvenate an injured sweeper
-Heal Bell works very well on more defensive sets in place of your support move, Perish Song for phazing and win condition

[Counters]

-Celebi can be handled by an assortment of different Pokemon, but they must take care upon switching in for fear of being paralyzed or hit with an approprite coverage move.
-Steels / Flyers / Fires / Ghosts / Darks / Dragons all fare pretty well - examples like Skarmory / Tornadus / Heatran / Gengar / Scrafty / Latios
-Reuniclus doesn't really care about Celebi, but needs Shadow Ball or Calm Mind to retaliate effectively (Ironically, Perish Song Celebi is one of the best counters for standard CM Reuniclus)
-Wobbofett usually means game over for Celebi if it isn't packing Baton Pass or U-turn

[Dream World]
-Celebi does not a special Dream World Ability
 

elDino

Deal With It.
is a Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus
#2
You should put Earth Power of Psychic on the first set as Psychic provides horrible coverage. It should be slashed after Hidden Power Fire. I also recommend adding a cleric set and also a CM set could be mentioned in the OC or as a slash against Nasty Plot. Keep up the good work!
 
#3
How can you have Recover as an alternative to NP on the Special Sweeper set? You won't be sweeping anyone without a boost. Leaf Storm isn't worthy because of the drop and Grass Knot should at least be slashed. Last Gen Earth Power was the best move for the final slot but I do agree Hidden Power Fire is the best for Ferrothorn.

I think the set should look like this:

[SET]
name: Special Sweeper
move 1: Nasty Plot
move 2: Psychic (switched only because it looks better this way)
move 3: Grass Knot / Giga Drain
move 4: Hidden Power Fire / Earth Power
item: Life Orb
nature: Timid
evs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe

You shouldn't write the ability on any set because Celebi only has one.

Also the Tinkerbell set is supposed to be somewhat bulky to be able to check take some hits while spreading paralysis so I don't see the need for the Special Sweeper EV spread. Maybe you can use the one on-site for the 4th Gen.

On the Choice set, tie with other base 100 Speed Scarfers isn't that good this Gen since ScarfRachi and ScrafGon are really rare and so you can adapt your EV spread to reflect this. You should aim for 487 to outspeed Scarf Hidreygon and +1 Haxorus and put the rest on HP to give some bulk.

I hope this helps!
 
#4
You should put Earth Power of Psychic on the first set as Psychic provides horrible coverage. It should be slashed after Hidden Power Fire. I also recommend adding a cleric set and also a CM set could be mentioned in the OC or as a slash against Nasty Plot. Keep up the good work!
Psychic isn't super effective against that many types but is actually great neutral coverage, I mentioned the option to drop it for the coverage move
Heal Bell is in OC
Justifying using CM Celebi instead of CM Virizion is even harder than BP Celebi over BP Mew. Nasty Plot at least lets Celebi hit harder after a turn of set-up.

How can you have Recover as an alternative to NP on the Special Sweeper set? You won't be sweeping anyone without a boost. Leaf Storm isn't worthy because of the drop and Grass Knot should at least be slashed. Last Gen Earth Power was the best move for the final slot but I do agree Hidden Power Fire is the best for Ferrothorn.

You shouldn't write the ability on any set because Celebi only has one.

Also the Tinkerbell set is supposed to be somewhat bulky to be able to check take some hits while spreading paralysis so I don't see the need for the Special Sweeper EV spread. Maybe you can use the one on-site for the 4th Gen.

On the Choice set, tie with other base 100 Speed Scarfers isn't that good this Gen since ScarfRachi and ScrafGon are really rare and so you can adapt your EV spread to reflect this. You should aim for 487 to outspeed Scarf Hidreygon and +1 Haxorus and put the rest on HP to give some bulk.

I hope this helps!
The Nasty Plot / Recover thing was me trying to limit the number of sets, changed

Ability tags will get lost

Tink will be changed

Celebi maxes at 492 speed anyway, so the extra 5 HP points arent really going to matter, better to just go for the tie against opposing 100 scarfers (and DD Mence, thats a big one).
 
#6
#7
Uh, actually, there is already a Celebi analysis in progress here: http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=84300&highlight=Celebi&page=2

Check if the analysis is already started before you make the thread. :\ The reservation thread is not always accurate or up-to-date. Or, you could check with the previous author and see if he's cool with you taking it over.
Posting to confirm that, indeed, I gave up the analysis and Friar took it.
If a mod see this, please delete my older thread.
 
#8
I see, sorry for the misunderstanding.

In any case, StarGengar's analysis was pretty decent from what I recall, so I highly recommend that you use it as a reference, Friar. Most prominently I notice that the Lead set from SG's analysis is missing on this one.
 
#11
Meadow Plate should be slashed in as an alternative item on the Tinkerbell set. Life Orb is superior with Psychic or HP Fire as secondary attacks, but with U-Turn, the boost is wasted and causes unwanted recoil. Since in that scenario, the only attack that would really benefit from the boost is Leaf Storm, it's better to use a Meadow Plate instead for almost the same boost without the recoil.

I haven't done the calculations, so the slight loss in power might have some significance, but in my experience using the set with U-Turn in Gen 4, it seemed to work much better with Meadow Plate as the item.
 
#13
I'm not sure how great it performs, but alongside Mew and Jirachi, Celebi is capable of running an anti-lead set of Jolly @ Leftovers: Stealth Rock, Magic Coat, U-turn, and Thunder Wave with 252 HP/SPE EVs. Thunderwave can be replaced with ANY other support move Celebi needs to perform if Thunder Wave support is unneeded. Note that what will separate Celebi from it's friends are its weaknesses, resistances, and movepool. The moveset listed above is SHARED amoung the trio.

They also take status differently. If Magic Coat isn't used, Mew will Copy+Paste Burns, Poisons, and Paralysis. Celebi can shake everything but Freeze and Sleep off with U-turn via Natural Cure. Jirachi CAN'T be Poisoned.

Edit: I have used Mew and Jirachi with that set, but not Celebi. The Sinnoh Pixies and Smeragle are also capable of the set.
 
#14
Do the 124 SpDef evs on the defensive set accomplish anything noteworthy? Isn't sticking all those evs in Defense better in order take hits more easily from the likes of Garchomp, Landorus, and others?
 
#15
Could you mention a bulkier spread for the NP set?

Also, mention HP Ice? Kills dem dragons and gets good coverage with Earth Power.

Also, I can't imagine why someone would use Rest over Recover. Even with Natural Cure, it's...stupid? Sure, you get a bit more health, but your opp gets a free turn, and Natural Cure beats status anyway, so...
 
#16
is it just me or that desensive bold celebi spread is pretty wierd i mean with all the power pokemons are packing right know maybe the 4 gen 252 hp 220 def 36 speed is mutch better??

and can any one do the prons and cons of a celebi giga drain vs grass knot about what would she hit harder or less harder with both of its attacks
 

Sprocket

P(n) = 1 - (1 - P(1))^n
#17
Grass Knot hits heavier Pokemon harder than Giga Drain. Giga Drain hits lighter Pokemon harder, and also replenishes HP with every use, mitigating Life Orb damage and any received damage as well.

That about sums it up.

And for further clarification, here is a list of Pokemon by weight. Anything over 110 lbs will be hit harder by Grass Knot (80 to 120 BP) than Giga Drain (75 BP), and anything 110 lbs or lighter will be hit harder by Giga Drain than Grass Knot (20-60 BP)
 
#18
Ok, I've been editing some stuff as posts have been made. I'll address some stuff here though:

Lead Set got axed - leads dont exist anymore I'd argue. Except for, like, suicide spikers, anything can be used outside the lead spot. The combination of attacks Celebi runs as the typical "lead" set basically makes it a worse Tinkerbell, Stealth Rock stays in OO because its a pretty well distributed support move so there are better options to set it up (especially those who eat up Xatu / Espeon). Celebi can run Stealth Rock over the support move if you want, but it doesn't deserve its own set.

Defensive EVs - are originally from StarGengar, and I'm inclined to keep them because I've used Celebi to come in against stuff like CM Birijion and paralyze / Perish Song, where SpD Evs help against HP Ice, or paralyzing the electric genie. Celebi really isnt the best pure physical wall anymore because of the harder hitting threats. If there is a specific situation where more defense is preferable that'd probably convince me, but I haven't missed the extra Defense Evs so far. With the new EVs, Celebi is just a nice mixed wall that still outspeeds TTar, and I've been pleased with how it works.
 

Style_Dota

formerly MikeDecIsHere
is a Smogon Social Media Contributor Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus
#23
Calm Mind is generally inferior to Nasty Plot, and it is mentioned on the BP set at least.
I completely disagree with this statement. On paper, nasty plot looks better, but with base 100 speed, its not. This is the same issue with Tail Glow Manaphy vs. Calm Mind Manaphy. Sure +2 spatk is nice, but you're open to being revenge killed by Pokemon on either side of the attacking spectrum. With Calm Mind, Celebi becomes significantly tougher to take down specially, meaning that its much harder to revenge kill.

A lot of people will say that Calm Mind Manaphy was scarier than Tail Glow Manaphy, even though Tail Glow is now +3. I'm not saying that nasty plot shouldn't be mentioned, but a more conservative stat boosting set should be added.
 
#24
On my phone right now, but am happy this is getting some responses. Calm Mind can get an OO mention, but in my opinion does not warrant its own set. Once I'm back on my computer ill update this a bit (blaziken mentions etc). I've written up a lot of the analysis but am waiting on qc so I post the analysts with their thoughts included.
 

SJCrew

Believer, going on a journey...
is a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus
#25
I'd like to call into question the nature on the first set. I don't see a whole lot of incentive for NP Celebi to go Timid these days, save for Mence and Haxorus. You can screw over a lot of Celebi's enemies with that extra power. Here are some relevant calcs:

+2 Giga Drain on Garchomp: 92.7% - 109.5%
Timid: 84.9% - 100%

On Sp. Def TTar: 71.3% - 84.7%
Timid: 65.3% - 77.2%

+2 Earth Power on Sp. Def Jirachi: 84.7% - 100%
Timid: 77.2% - 91.1%

On Ferrothorn: 48.6% - 57.3%
Timid: 44.1% - 52%

On CB Scizor: 81.6% - 96.2%
Timid: 74.1% - 87.5%

+2 Psychic on Sp. Def Skarm: 47.6% - 56%
Timid: 43.1% - 51.2%

On Sp. Def Dragonite: 67.6% - 79.5%
Timid: 61.4% - 72.5%

+4 Psychic on Blissey: 56.7% - 66.8%
Timid: 51.4% - 60.6%

It's plain as day: Modest just destroys things. Unless you can name a bunch of good reasons for Celebi to be faster, I think it deserves priority over Timid.