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Chain Chomp
- Thread starter Surgo
- Start date
Somehow I forgot to factor in the boost from SD :/
Well then... Protect Swampert isn't as much of a problem but still... you don't know whether Protect or Avalanche is coming...
No. Stop saying this. Donphan switches into a Draco Meteor, takes a fucking ton of damage, and Garchomp switches out. Next time Donphan switches in, it's dead, no questions asked. This is not a "counter" and it sure as hell isn't hard to find something to switch into an Ice Shard.
I think since this set does rely on its surprise factor, it definitely needs as close to identical attack as a jolly Garchomp. You have like a 3/16 chance of exposing your set by eqing a Hippowdon for an impossibly low damage amount atm..
But honestly I think if you're running 300 speed, I still prefer Physical.. Here are some similar calculations for Adamant Life Orb Chomp.
vs Hippowdon: 357 - 420. 99+ on rng (1/8) is an OHKO with LO Outrage after an SD, but Hippowdon cant OHKO Garchomp. With one Layer of spikes you have a 50% chance to OHKO, plus the 80% chance Hippowdon will miss you.
vs Weezing: minimum 357 damage. Guaranteed OHKO.
vs Slowbro: 379 - 446 damage. SR or Spikes guarantees OHKO, 75% chance of OHKO otherwise. Also if Slowbro has enough Special Attack to KO Garchomp, it is guaranteed to be OHKOed by the outrage. Slowbro can not survive the turn in SS.
vs Skarm: LO Fireblast is a guaranteed 2HKO, SD fire fang is a guaranteed KO. ChainChomp obviously is better here..
vs Starmie: (304 hp no def??) Outrage does 322 minimum to no Def Skarm. Earthquake has a 5/16 chance to KO on a switch in SS, with one layer of spikes Quake is a guaranteed KO.
vs Gliscor: has a 1/8 chance to survive with absolute maximum defense.
vs Donphan: is a better counter.. 3hkoed by EQ.. Chainchomp is definitely better in this situation.
vs Blissey: Haha..
vs Bronzong: Bronzong who knows what crazy EVs they could be running.. But Fireblast will pretty much always 3hko. SD Fire Fang is a guaranteed 2hko.
vs Cresselia you do 357-420. With Stealth Rock and SS you have a 50% chance to KO, Cresselia will only have a 1/16 chance of surviving the turn.
It is a pretty good set, definitely better for Bronzong, Skarm and Donphan.. But Physical Garchomp is just so broken already.. I would worry that you will find yourself countered by things you really shouldnt be, and the speed hit is a big hit..
Have a nice day.
But honestly I think if you're running 300 speed, I still prefer Physical.. Here are some similar calculations for Adamant Life Orb Chomp.
vs Hippowdon: 357 - 420. 99+ on rng (1/8) is an OHKO with LO Outrage after an SD, but Hippowdon cant OHKO Garchomp. With one Layer of spikes you have a 50% chance to OHKO, plus the 80% chance Hippowdon will miss you.
vs Weezing: minimum 357 damage. Guaranteed OHKO.
vs Slowbro: 379 - 446 damage. SR or Spikes guarantees OHKO, 75% chance of OHKO otherwise. Also if Slowbro has enough Special Attack to KO Garchomp, it is guaranteed to be OHKOed by the outrage. Slowbro can not survive the turn in SS.
vs Skarm: LO Fireblast is a guaranteed 2HKO, SD fire fang is a guaranteed KO. ChainChomp obviously is better here..
vs Starmie: (304 hp no def??) Outrage does 322 minimum to no Def Skarm. Earthquake has a 5/16 chance to KO on a switch in SS, with one layer of spikes Quake is a guaranteed KO.
vs Gliscor: has a 1/8 chance to survive with absolute maximum defense.
vs Donphan: is a better counter.. 3hkoed by EQ.. Chainchomp is definitely better in this situation.
vs Blissey: Haha..
vs Bronzong: Bronzong who knows what crazy EVs they could be running.. But Fireblast will pretty much always 3hko. SD Fire Fang is a guaranteed 2hko.
vs Cresselia you do 357-420. With Stealth Rock and SS you have a 50% chance to KO, Cresselia will only have a 1/16 chance of surviving the turn.
It is a pretty good set, definitely better for Bronzong, Skarm and Donphan.. But Physical Garchomp is just so broken already.. I would worry that you will find yourself countered by things you really shouldnt be, and the speed hit is a big hit..
Have a nice day.
I'll definitely give you that Adamant LO Outrage Garchomp annihilates some of its "counters" as well, Hip. In fact, I was a pretty early proponent of Adamant LO Outrage Garchomp during the hype, and was quite repeatedly shouted down because it was "too slow"...well, whatever. I still maintain that Adamant LO Garchomp kicks ass and for good reason, as you've outlined above.
That said, Chain Chomp does have one nice benefit over Adamant LO Garchomp using Outrage: it can't be revenge killed while stuck in Outrage. I daresay that Adamant LO Garchomp has a far shorter life expectancy than Chain Chomp when taking out similar problems like Hippowdon or Slowbro or Gliscor or Weezing because Garchomp with Outrage to take care of these problems can be revenge killed by Starmie or Weavile the turn after it starts its Outrage.
That said, Chain Chomp does have one nice benefit over Adamant LO Garchomp using Outrage: it can't be revenge killed while stuck in Outrage. I daresay that Adamant LO Garchomp has a far shorter life expectancy than Chain Chomp when taking out similar problems like Hippowdon or Slowbro or Gliscor or Weezing because Garchomp with Outrage to take care of these problems can be revenge killed by Starmie or Weavile the turn after it starts its Outrage.
Yeah, I agree. This set will start being overused and being put in combination with Sandstorm + Stealth Rocks/Spikes teams. Tyranitar is such a great compliment to it since Cresselia will start rising in popularity, and it sets up the Sandstorm which helps bring the enemy down into the KO range from Garchomp's Special Attacks and activates its Sand Veil, giving it slightly more durability.
Kudos to you smogmods for an awesome find.
Just one question though; might it be a tad better to drop SD altogether and go with a straight mix set? No doubt this will become extremely popular, and so it won't take long before the Swords Dance isn't fooling people anymore. Unless, of course, i'm misunderstanding the reasoning behind SD's presence; at the moment it only seems to give you a chance to OHKO Blissey, while a non-SDed EQ is a practically guaranteed 2HKO.
Just one question though; might it be a tad better to drop SD altogether and go with a straight mix set? No doubt this will become extremely popular, and so it won't take long before the Swords Dance isn't fooling people anymore. Unless, of course, i'm misunderstanding the reasoning behind SD's presence; at the moment it only seems to give you a chance to OHKO Blissey, while a non-SDed EQ is a practically guaranteed 2HKO.
I was using Draco on Garchomp back in June and even planned to in Smogon Wifi #1 (until I busted out a certain other team), and everyone laughed, now its the next big thing =/. I rather enjoyed the surprise factor of using it, now thats gone, thanks Surgo. From my experience it's an excellent set and deals with any physical problems Garchomp runs into (ie Hippowdon, Weezing, etc), I don't know if its a total shock to people anymore after this thread, but its still very awesome.
I maintained the idea that all dragons that have access to Draco should use it, a base 140 attack + STAB + hitting tons of stuff neutral or SE warranted the use ages ago and have since used Scope Lens Kingdra and a Draco/Sub/FocusP/Thunder Dragonite. It was really inevitable before someone else realized Draco is an attack that can be put on anything that gets it, even if it only has Base 80 Special Attack.
I maintained the idea that all dragons that have access to Draco should use it, a base 140 attack + STAB + hitting tons of stuff neutral or SE warranted the use ages ago and have since used Scope Lens Kingdra and a Draco/Sub/FocusP/Thunder Dragonite. It was really inevitable before someone else realized Draco is an attack that can be put on anything that gets it, even if it only has Base 80 Special Attack.
SePh mentioned to me about this a while ago and I thought about it.
And here's the few stuff:
1) Cress walls you easeir
2) Gyarados stops you easier (and more thanks to the recoil damage)
3) Draco Meteor can force you to switch quite a bit, which ruins this thing's effectiveness.
4) Suicune now counters you
5) The name "Chain Chomp" confused me just like Boah.
6) For this thing to efficiently pull an endgame sweep, you'd need to remove the fliers/levitators
Other than those I mentioned, the set seems pretty good on paper, being able to knock down physical walls and such.
One more thing: Specsmence are sometimes Timid, from what I've seen
And here's the few stuff:
1) Cress walls you easeir
2) Gyarados stops you easier (and more thanks to the recoil damage)
3) Draco Meteor can force you to switch quite a bit, which ruins this thing's effectiveness.
4) Suicune now counters you
5) The name "Chain Chomp" confused me just like Boah.
6) For this thing to efficiently pull an endgame sweep, you'd need to remove the fliers/levitators
Other than those I mentioned, the set seems pretty good on paper, being able to knock down physical walls and such.
One more thing: Specsmence are sometimes Timid, from what I've seen
Have to say although this set seems good I have to note Earthquake as the main physical attack does offset it abit, Crunch or Dragon Claw or even Stone Edge are almost necessities. Two main reasons being Fliers/Levitators and any fast pokemon with Substitute.
In fact levitator/flier with substitute more specifically ruins this and funnily enough Charizard gets a relatively easy setup on it because of it. Also any half decent Mantine rofl's at this but both are uncommon enough to warrant its use.
Using Stone Edge instead of EQ would solve both problems instantly leaving only s.def Claydol as the only thing who lols at this set. (Claydol pretty much rapes any variation without Crunch).
Stealth rock or spikes being in effect can be said for any set much like Baton passing working for anything.
So I guess I echo everyone else in saying this relies heavily on surprise factor since the second they use Draco Meteor you've given yourself away. It also relies on the fact most players are highly conservative (which is pretty much true) so they won't be the ones doing the surprising on you.
In fact levitator/flier with substitute more specifically ruins this and funnily enough Charizard gets a relatively easy setup on it because of it. Also any half decent Mantine rofl's at this but both are uncommon enough to warrant its use.
Using Stone Edge instead of EQ would solve both problems instantly leaving only s.def Claydol as the only thing who lols at this set. (Claydol pretty much rapes any variation without Crunch).
Stealth rock or spikes being in effect can be said for any set much like Baton passing working for anything.
So I guess I echo everyone else in saying this relies heavily on surprise factor since the second they use Draco Meteor you've given yourself away. It also relies on the fact most players are highly conservative (which is pretty much true) so they won't be the ones doing the surprising on you.
You do know that it has 130 base attack vs only 80 sp attack, right? You also know that outrage is about as strong as draco meteor only it's physical and has practically no drawback? Just saying, there really doesn't seem like a hugely compelling reason to use a special set with a poke who has 50 higher base attack than sp atk other than as a gimmick. Just my opinion.
Everybody switches in PHYSICAL walls into garchomp, and most of them get owned by a draco meteor. I don't get why you say outrage has no drawback since 1. You are stuck to outrage, which allows faster pokemon to come in and revenge kill. 2. you get confused after 2-3 turns and are just about forced to switch out. This is a for the surprise factor in general, and you are still using that 130 base attack.
I had actually thought of this idea a little while ago, but I never suggested it, i found it to be too much of a joke to be taken seriously. Teferi, the reason that Sp. Att Garchomp is being suggested is because It RAPES most of his counters.
EDIT: OK lilwartz, most of his counters.
EDIT: OK lilwartz, most of his counters.
Cresselia.
I think Dragonite might be able to do a set like this better, actually.
Dragonite has slightly higher Attack and a whole lot higher Special Attack, in a trade-off for just a loss in Speed. Also, you need to make up for not having STAB on Earthquake, but IMO Outrage is just as Viable. lastly, no Swords Dance, so the set would work something like this:
Dragonite @ Life Orb / Dragon Fang
~ Draco Meteor
~ Outrage
~ Fire Blast
~ Thunder Wave / Thunderbolt / Heal Bell / Icy Wind, etc.
Now i suppose it works in a slightly different way because Dragonite doesnt have exactly the same switch-ins as Garchomp does, but Draco Meteor and Outrage combined are an incredibly powerful combination, and then Dragonite can get some role-playing done for your team as well with that massive movepool.
Dragonite has slightly higher Attack and a whole lot higher Special Attack, in a trade-off for just a loss in Speed. Also, you need to make up for not having STAB on Earthquake, but IMO Outrage is just as Viable. lastly, no Swords Dance, so the set would work something like this:
Dragonite @ Life Orb / Dragon Fang
~ Draco Meteor
~ Outrage
~ Fire Blast
~ Thunder Wave / Thunderbolt / Heal Bell / Icy Wind, etc.
Now i suppose it works in a slightly different way because Dragonite doesnt have exactly the same switch-ins as Garchomp does, but Draco Meteor and Outrage combined are an incredibly powerful combination, and then Dragonite can get some role-playing done for your team as well with that massive movepool.