Chandelure [QC: 2/3] Writing

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SpaceBass

SpaceBass

☆ALOLA VERA420: FUKK AMOONGUS AND UR MOM
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Overview
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  • Chandelure is a decent offensive Trick Room setter thanks to Fake Out immunity, paired with very high SpA and strong spread STAB, however it is vulnerable to Scrappy Fake Out from Kangaskhan pre mega
  • Is able to act as an attacker after Trick Room is up thanks to a large base 145 Special Attack
  • Ghost typing gives weakness' to the common Trick Room counters such as Bisharp and Hoopa-U
  • 60 / 90 / 90 defences paired with weakness to common attacking types in Water, Rock, Ground, Dark and Ghost leave it easy to take down
  • Weak to priority such as Sucker Punch and Aqua Jet, and Talonflame resists fire and can do a lot of damage with Brave Bird regardless of Trick Room being up
  • Good typing and a Fire immunity give it plenty of chances to switch in, able to wall things like Char Y / Venusaur, Amoonguss and Breloom, however it still fears sleep

Trick Room
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name: Trick Room
move 1: Trick Room
move 2: Heat Wave
move 3: Shadow Ball
move 4: Protect
ability: Flash Fire / Infiltrator
item: Focus Sash
evs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD
ivs: 0 spe
nature: Quiet

Moves
========

  • Heat Wave is first STAB, able to hit Grass, Steel and Ice types hard thanks to its high Special Attack, and hits for nice spread damage
  • Shadow Ball is second STAB, hitting things like Cresselia, the Latis and Mega Metagross. This should be used to do bigger damage over Heat Wave as it doesn't suffer from spread reduction
  • Ghost / Fire coverage is a great combo, only relevant thing in the tier that resists both is Hydreigon
  • Trick Room is to allow your slower team makes the take advantage of the reversed move order and put the opponent on the defensive for 4 turns
  • Protect is to keep Chand safe while partners deal with threats, and ensures it stays alive to set TR again

Set Details
========

  • Focus Sash is key as it prevents the opponent from killing Chand before it sets up TR
  • 252 Special Attack with a quiet nature ensures max damage output to take advantage of its high SpA stat, while 0 speed ivs minimize speed
  • 252 HP give Chand some bulk to stick around after TR is up and do some damage
  • Flash Fire gives a useful immunity to fire and can be used to hit harder

Usage Tips
========

  • Makes a great lead, as being immune to Fake Out and the threat of Trick Room can put pressure on the opponent
  • If faced with an obvious Taunt or Spore, it's usually better to just attack, as Heat Wave will do decent damage to Amoonguss, while Shadow Ball will damage most Taunt users well
  • Beware priority, as like all pokemon that take advantage of Trick Room, something skipping turn order is a threat
  • Trick Room setters have a big target on them usually, so Protecting turn 1 as a bait can lead to alot of frustration on the opponents part, and lets your partner get a hit in if they decided to double target
  • Do not attempt to reset Trick Room if the opponent has something like an Amoonguss out, as it's better to remove the threat while Trick Room is down
  • Shadow Ball should be used instead of Heat Wave if the opponent has Wide Guard or a Flash Fire Pokemon out to avoid giving them needless power ups or free turns
  • Switching Chand out is fine as it has nice resists that can allow it to come back in safely
  • After setting Trick Room, chand usually just spams Heat Wave / Shadow ball

Team Options
========

  • Fake out is a great thing to have alongside a Trick Room setter, as combined with Chandelure's Focus Sash, only Taunt and Sleep can stop Room from being set. Hariyama and Scrafty work well, Scrafty provides intimidate alongside Fake Out, and is slow enough to take advantage of Trick Room. Hariyama can also provide Wide Guard to shield from Rock Slides and Earthquakes, and can also beat Darks with Close Combat
  • Amoonguss can use Rage Powder to protect Chand, aswell as sleeping stuff during trick room
  • Ferrothorn likes Chands Flash Fire ability, and can remove Ground-, Water- and Rock-types that threaten Chand
  • Various Pokemon are able to utilize Trick Room with their low speed. Mega Mawile likes Steels removed by Chand, Mega Ampharos beats the bulky waters that chand doesn't like, Mega Camerupt has low speed with incredible attacking power and great bulk, however shares a STAB and 2 weaks with Chandelure
  • Other Trick Room setters like Cresselia or Diancie are recommended as Trick Room teams should usually carry 2 setters
Other Options
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  • A non Trick Room special attacking set can be run with an EV spread of 80 HP / 252 SpA / 176 Spe with a Timid nature. Life Orb or Leftovers can be used, and the set carries Heat Wave, Shadow Ball, either Substitute or Will-O-Wisp, and Protect
  • Energy Ball can be used as a way to hit Water and Rock Types
  • Taunt can be used as you outspeed Breloom, but it would probably be better to either sub on it or kill it
  • Hidden Power Ground can be used to hit Heatran better, this works especially well with Infiltrator to hit through its Subtitutes.
  • Safety Goggles can prevent Spore or Sleep Powder, which is useful for setting Trick Room. This also makes it work well against Charizard-Y and Chlorophyll Venusaur.
  • Overheat could work if you really wanted something (Amoonguss) dead
  • Fire Blast is another option for power without SpA drops

Checks & Counters
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**Type Advantage**: Tyranitar resists both Fire and Ghost, and has dual super effective STABs, aswell as sandstorm breaking the Trick Room set's Sash. Hydreigon and Greninja both outspeed and resist Chand's STABs, and can hit super effectively. Mega Gyarados can set up Dragon Dances on the Sub variant. Terrakion does big damage with Rock Slide. Mega Diancie outspeeds and 2HKO's Chand with Diamond Storm. Life Orb Keldeo Scald can OHKO. Scrafty resists Shadow Ball, and has the bulk to take a few Heat Waves, while hitting back with STAB Knock Off. Bulky Water-types like Suicune and Rotom-W can cause issues as they can easily take a couple of Shadow Balls and hit back with Water STABs. Suicune can also use Snarl to lower Chandelure's SpA. Strong Water- or Ground-types like Ludicolo, Garchomp and Landorus-T threaten Chandelure with their powerful STAB moves.

**Utility**: The Trick Room set can be threatened by Scrappy Fake Out from Kang before it megas, breaking Chand's Focus Sash and leaving it vulnerable. Taunt can stop Trick Room from being set, so Thundurus and Sableye are a threat.

**Speed Control**: The non Trick Room set is vulnerable to other forms of speed control, such as Tailwind or Thunder Wave. Azumarill can use Aqua Jet to ignore both Trick Room and to hit Chand before it can do anything, as can Talonflames Brave Bird.
 
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I was going to mention scarf chand, wasn't sure if I should put up a set or not.

Will do the skeleton if you guys think its a good idea.
 
I've used this before, but it was ages ago. I can test it out again and see if it's still worth anything

Chandelure (F) @ Leftovers
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 56 HP / 252 SpA / 200 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Substitute
- Heat Wave
- Shadow Ball
- Will-O-Wisp
 
I used a sub protect dual stab set with enough speed to sub before jolly loom spores. It wasn't too good but it was good enough to write up
 
name: Special Attacker
move 1: Heat Wave
move 2: Shadow Ball
move 3: Substitute / Will-O-Wisp
move 4: Protect
ability: Flash Fire / Infiltrator
item: Leftovers / Life Orb
evs: 80 HP / 252 SpA / 176 Spe
nature: Timid

This is what I was thinking would be a good non-TR set.

Protect is too good to pass up on. Especially a Pokemon as easily KOed as Chandelure

WoW can be used instead of Sub for physical attackers. Improves its match up against physical attackers, most notably Mega Kang, still gives it a way around Sucker Punch, and punishes Mega Gyarados who use Chandelure as set up bait. If using WoW, use 72 HP / 16 Def / 244 SpA / 176 Spe; this prevents a burnt Bisharp from OHKOing Chandelure with Knock Off.

Not entirely sure on ability, but I reckon FF > Infiltrator, as it makes it easier to set up Sub and gives Chandelure more switch-in opportunities, most notably against Mega Zard Y.
 
agreeing with DM on the ability front, only particularly common substitute user is Heatran which is probably beating Chandelure anyway, roll with Flash Fire over Infiltrator.
 
Sorry it took so long, skeleton is up and ready for QC. Wasn't so sure on the non TR set as I've never used it so I may have missed a couple things.
 
some quick things:
  • maybe fire blast deserves a mention somewhere for people who want something that doesn't drop SpA
  • avest scrafty is bulky enough to tank its attacks easily and do damage back w/ knock off (it's on the decline though so idk if you wanna use it)
  • top can be a good partner to beat darks + shield from rock types w/ se hits & wide guard
  • for the TR set slow powerful mons in general work, don't have to be just megas
  • when talking about heat wave and shadow ball saw how heat wave is nice for bein spread while sball is what you use when you want to hit a single thing with more power
  • add mention of a water type like rotom-w to checks and counters, you talk about bulky waters elsewhere in the analysis but don't mention them
  • in fact mention how water / ground attacks (examples being ludi, landot, chomp, etc) can KO it
not a QC member so I can't actually stamp this but nice job
 
  • One of the top Trick Room setters in the tier thanks to Fake Out immunity
I mean TR is learned by a buttload of ghosts. The stress goes on the fact that it also has great SpA and spammable STABs/Spread.

Mention Scrappy Fake Out from un-Megaed Kanga up top, not just in the Utility part of C&C
Mention that it type stacks a bit with the best TR mega Camerupt, which is, I think, a strike against it
Remove Mega Abomasnow... Hail on a team with a sash mon... great idea
Heavy competition from Cresselia and Diancie, who are the premier TR users in this meta
 
Added, I only mentioned snow because I usually send Chand out as a lead, bringing snow in later on in the game, but I see what you mean so I took it out.
 
First things first, update the format to match the one explained in this thread.


OVERVIEW

- Mention that defenses + typing make it very vulnerable to priority (besides Fake Out I guess). You dont have to mention this specifically but so you have a sense of where this comment is coming from, Talonbird resists Heat Wave / WoW and can deal a huge chunk of damage with Brave Bird, Sucker Punch fucks up your momentum (unless sub / wow) even if you come out on top, and Aqua Jet just straight donks you to the hell you came from. aka it provides support but also needs support because damn it's frail.
- Nice immunities give it many opportunities to switch in, Ghost typing + Fire immunity + Fire typing lets you wall a lot of cool things, including Venusaur & Zard Y, Breloom / Amoonguss, but it also gives you a bunch of weaknesses which only add on to its frailness, so it doesnt have much staying power unless you can apply a lot of offensive pressure
- Take out the Mega Camerupt mention. The only relevance of the listed information is that it's more difficult to use Mega Cam if you choose to use Chandelure but Mega Cam is not very widely used at all, and Chandelure will be the one chosen almost every time unless that person specifically wants to use Mega Cam to which I remark, "why"
- I dont like the "competition w/ Dia & Cress" part, you could very easily put on two and you'd be better off. It also has a drastically different set of other niches that set it apart from Chandelure and Diancie; the most significant of which is that it can actually pose an offensive presence.


SET: TRICK ROOM
- The whole point of the set is to act as an offensive Trick Room setter, so Trick Room should be in the first moveslot, then Heat Wave, then Shadow Ball

Moves:
- Add mention that Heat Wave + Shadow Ball are a nice offensive combination; only thing that resists Ghost is Dark, and most Dark-types dont resist Fire (Hydrei / Greninja are the only notable ones) so you always have options.

Set Details:
- Mention Quiet minimizes Speed
- What about 0 Spe IVs?? Does 31 IVs hit any special benchmark? Slow af is the way to go here I think, especially if you're already using Quiet

Usage Tips:
- You could elaborate here if you wanted to.
- After TR spam Heat Wave, Shadow Ball if there are any significant threats / you can take something out
- Switching out is ok since Chand is frail, just take advantage of its resistances / immunities, come in on a Grass- or Fire-type, and set up again

Team Options:
- There's sooo much more you can add here.
- Add redirection: Amoonguss is a great partner that can stun threats and bait Fire-type attacks while also beating Water-types. Great to lead with Chandelure because the only notable things faster than Rage Powder are ExtremeSpeed and Fake Out, both of which Chand is immune to. Also, Togekiss tanks Dark-type attacks easily, and can Air Slash to buy you opportunities to set up. Though, it is not so useful otherwise, especially on a Trick Room team.
- Grass-types are great because they beat Water-, Ground-, and Rock-types; Breloom is a neat partner that can support with Spore, though unfortunately it too is a bit fast for Trick Room. Ferrothorn is a fantastic partner that loves Trick Room and can easily remove faster frailer glass cannons turn 1 while Chandelure Protects.
- More Wide Guard, especially slow Aegislash, just so Rock Slide and EQ dont mess up your day (be careful of Knock Off on Landorus-T tho). Be wary of stacking Dark weaknesses though, you could put Sacred Sword on that to hit them harder
- And of course, other Trick Room setters like Cress / Diancie for added support.


SET: SPECIAL ATTACKER
- Everything seems good except these two points:

Moves:
- Under Sub / WoW mention that both are prime tools that allow Chandelure to overcome its weakness to Sucker Punch, the only move many Pokemon can (Mega Kang) or dare to (Bisharp) threaten it with

Set Details:
- Explain that Infiltrator is really only to be used with WoW, just so you can sneak past Substitutes and Safeguards. Otherwise, Fire immunity is best so you can beat Zard Y



CHECKS & COUNTERS
- Looks good, when updating the format you might want to split **Type Advantage** to differentiate between the Pokemon that can easily switch in (everything that resists a STAB) and the Pokemon that can't (dont resist a STAB and aren't considerably bulky; something like Scarf Landorus gets 2HKOd by Heat Wave on the switch in so it's risky. Frailer things that dont resist both STABs have to be careful switching into the Trick Room set because if TR is up after you switch in it'll be harder to beat Chandelure


Tag me when you're done so I can stamp this, my Extraterrestrial Fish friend :)
 
One of the top Trick Room setters in the tier thanks to Fake Out immunity, paired with very high SpA and strong spread STAB, however Scrappy Kangaskhan is able to fake it out
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I though Chandelure's no longer relevant to high-level play unless you're Fangame? It's not one of the top TR settlers as you sell it out to be; it's niche as a TR settler with that Fire-type to aid match-ups against Grass-types (mainly Amoonguss) and Zard-Y if running Flash Fire, as well as offensive power. This is probably there just because this analysis was written months ago. The analysis should have a second look to make it more up to date. I see a Skymin reference in there.
 
Darkmalice said:
I though Chandelure's no longer relevant to high-level play unless you're Fangame?
Click to expand...
It never was lol. It's basically just fangame team. It's an ok mon and I'm sure it can work on other teams but I very rarely see it outside of that one team.
 
Bughouse said:
It never was lol. It's basically just fangame team. It's an ok mon and I'm sure it can work on other teams but I very rarely see it outside of that one team.
Click to expand...
Back in the XY days I've seen successful use of it in tourneys. I remember one game where the Sub set essentially won the player the game.

But yeah it's nothing these days. Wouldn't be surprised if the Special Attacker set ends up in OO; haven't seen that in higher level play for a long long time and even on the ladder Chandelure is essentially only used for Trick Room.
 
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am check ,':)

Overview:

  • mention how it faces competition with jelicent and gourgeist as ghost type trick room setter, both of which have better bulk, letting it set up trick room more reliably. also make reference to how chandelure has better offensive presence, making it more useful outside of a standalone support role like its fellow ghosts do
  • mention how it faces competition as an offensive fire type from mega camerupt and zardy, and as a ghost type, aegislash. the latter two examples are also solid fits for the trick room builds that chandelure finds its home on. although chandelure seperates itself as a better attacker in semiroom, and being able to set up its own trick room
moves and set details looks fin

Usage Tips (trick room set)

  • remove this part: "protecting turn one can lead to a lot of frustration on the opponents part, and lets your partner get a hit in if they decided to double target".i undestand that youre trying to say that if you protect with chandelure and your opponent double attacks it, your other mon can get a free turn to do whatever, but this really can apply with any mon and doesnt really affect how you use chandy, and shouldnt be in usage tips imo.
  • "switching chand out is fine as it had nice resists that can allow it to come back in safely" is worded weird. try making it more centred around switching chandelure into moves it can come in safely on, like char-y's heat wave, or venus solar beam. any mon can switch out so idk what thats doing in usage tips.
Team Options (trick room set)

  • this entire section should be looked over and the mons mentioned should be more selectively chosen. keep in mind that the whole point of analyses are to be an education resource for new players entering the doubles metagame; we should not be exposing newer players to the idea of shit like mega amphy being a viable mon.
Moves (non-tr)
  • why is the bullet point describing infiltrator here
Set Details (non-tr)
  • tbh i dont think infiltrator should be anything more than oo. flash fire is the far better, more reliable ability, giving chandy actual switch-in opps and increased defensive utility. besides, infiltrators only nice is passing thru subs, but the best sub users (kyube and heatran) still beat chandy and dont care much about burns
usage tips is cool

Team Options (non-tr)
  • all the descriptions are really short, but im not gonna dwell on this too much as itll probably get more substance during write-up. just want to make u aware of this or remind u.
Other Options
  • as i mentioned earlier, id like to advocate for infiltrator to be moved here
  • safety goggles could be used for a trick room setter that had a perfect matchup versus amoonguss, but is more match-up based than focus sash
c&c looks fine

overall, solid quality, just needs some tweaks :^)
 
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Honestly, is the Special Attacker set even viable, or at least worth it to use, in this metagame? Like, if ever I want a Fire-type attacker, I'd just go to either of YZard, Heatran, or utility Rotom-H; Chandelure just doesn't have the power of Zard, doesn't have the longevity of Heatran, and doesn't have the utility and typing of Rotom-H. Aside from its own share of shortcomings, being the in-between kinds of put it at a really tight spot, since, it's really hard to justify using it and one can easily adjust a team to not have to use it anyway. Really, the only real niche I see is as a Trick Room setter, and I believe that that should be the only main set in the analysis imo, Special Attacker in OO. Opinions?
 
i mean, i could get behind making the only set the trick room one as long as the non-tr set gets heavy mention in oo. non-tr chandy definitely has a niche, tho, as a fairly solid offensive kang check that isnt totally awkward with tailwind like aegi or doesnt take up a mega slot like diancie or gengar. but, non-tr chandy's pretty much outdone by zard-y in every area besides that so rip.
 
haven't even seen non-Trick Room Chandelure in close to a year, so yeah, I'm down to reduce this to just the Trick Room setter set with probably just a small mention in OO about the special attacker set.

anywayy

[OVERVIEW]
- calling it one the top tr setters isn't even almost true, at best it's a decent offensive setter at the lead position
- Ghost-typing is also a pretty nice typing as a lead setter since it can't be faked out unless a scrappy mon is on the board as well, though overall it's typings weaknesses to dark, rock, water, ghost, ground, (all of whiiich are common) kinda sucks and isn't really made up for by its 9 resistances / immunities

[Set]
- infiltrator should be slashed on this

[Usage Tips]
- don't try and set tr up on obvious taunt users / spore
- set as needed, just because tr is down doesn't /necessarily/ mean it has to go back up immediately (example, if you set trick room back up when your opponent has a fucking amoonguss out and you have nothing to eat those spores you should be ashamed of yourself)
- use shadow ball if your opponent has a WG / flash fire user to avoid needless setbacks

[Other Options]
- Special attacker set goes here
- HP Ground (especially w/e infiltrator)
- goggles probably desrve a mention here
- colbur / kasib would be kinda cute to live a dark or ghost type move (iiiiidk someone back me up onthis)

Checks and Counters

*Utility* and *Speed Control* should be separated

dew for two
 
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