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Cheating The Devil: A CaP RMT

Discussion in 'Create-A-Pokémon Project' started by Gooey Kablooie, May 5, 2009.

  1. Gooey Kablooie

    Gooey Kablooie

    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2009
    Messages:
    179
    At A Glance:
    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
    Special thanks to AragornBird for the images.​



    Intro:
    This is my very first RMT and as such please excuse any rookie errors I may make, although I’ve read the rules three times over. So there should not be many, if not any.

    I’ve been using this team for quite awhile in the Smogon University (with the exception of using Starmie instead of Arghonaut) and it works very well for me. Originally when I first started I was playing for kicks and only used my favorite pokes (Umbreon and Flygon still remain, who happen to be my top two fav’s) but as time progressed the competiveness stirred in me and I wanted a team that could not only compete but didn’t sell-out to looking like a lot of the other cookie cutter teams and could also beat those cookie cutter teams. I am admittedly also influenced by flavor and only use pokes that I think look good. But it seems I got lucky and built a team that kicks ass and looks cool.

    Like I said at the beginning I sucked (I still have a lot to learn now). So with hour after hour of testing and switching team members and moving in no direction, I remembered the wise words I had always read “find something to center your team around”. That is when it all changed, originally I believed it was impossible to use my favourite Pokémon and be competitive and have a center of focus. Somehow I found that focus in my favorite Pokémon Umbreon who I never once took off my team. After trying the build I’m using now I noticed I was sweeping teams with Umbreon. I thought it was just a fluke, but it kept happening, I began to rely on my Umbreon sweep, and once Umbreon went down I would usually lose. The realization that I had finally found my center of focus dawned on me and the realization that it was my favourite Pokémon made me even happier.

    I have now converted my team to play in the CaP metagame, and after switching Starmie for Arghonaut, this team seems to play even better than it did before. Although, since I’m relatively new to this metagame, most of the tips and advice I’ll require, will mainly centre around dealing with CaP Pokémon.




    How It Works:
    I’ve built this team completely around Umbreon (who is my favourite Pokémon) and although that may seem like a strange concept, if you read further you’ll see how ridiculously well it works.

    My team has been built to center around an offensively built Umbreon (Well, as offensive as it can get). By eliminating and crippling Umbreons counters through status’ like Toxic (provided by Umbreon and Heatran) and Burn (provided by Rotom-H) and by hitting others damn hard with the likes of Mamoswine, Flygon, and Heatran, Umbreons weaknesses are quickly brought down. This provides Umbreon with the opportunity to stat up and sweep, which is just as funny as it sounds, and just as potent as it is unorthodox. The team also centers itself around using the element of surprise. Surprise you ask?
    • How surprising is a team centered around Umbreon in the first place?
    • I use some slightly uncommon builds that switch the pace of battle around on the opponent and help me gain the advantage while the opponent is trying to figure out what to do. For example, Heatrans Substitute build, Mamoswine with Focus Sash and Endeavor and Umbreons overall build contribute to this, as the opponent only figures out the builds when it’s too late. The builds are admittedly not super uncommon but it’s enough to make the opponent really re-think how they’re taking on my team, which is a great advantage when your opponent is constantly re-analyzing the situation and it requires lots of memory work to plan a proper course of action.
    • I find this team can adapt extremely well to different situations, it provides many counters to common threats and allows me to throw in whichever poke can best kill the enemy poke and provide the support it can offer to Umbreon.
    Lastly, even without Umbreon this team is built to switch in on counters bitch slap (whether through status or a strong attack) the counter you bring in and run away. The process at that point simply becomes “rinse and repeat”. If the opponent falls into that sort of tempo I set then they’re going to lose, simple as that.

    Now that I’ve explained the core part of the strategy let’s look at the team itself.





    The Team:
    [​IMG]
    Mamoswine(Johnny) @Focus Sash
    Adamant (+Atk/-SpA)
    Snow Cloak
    252atk 252spe 6def
    - Ice Shard
    - Earthquake
    - Stealth Rock
    - Endeavor

    The Role:
    I got this set off of another RMT and I’ve never looked back, I wish I remembered whose it was so I could thank them and give them some credit here. I was having a lot of trouble finding a lead that worked for this team. I had spent a lot of time trying out and testing new leads but nothing proved to be a reliable choice, especially for this kind of team. I was getting so tired of testing things I began browsing other RMT’s. When I found this build, it sparked my interest and out of pure spontaneity I copied this out of the other RMT and it worked wonders.

    Anyways, it’s a fairly standard suicide lead with the addition of Stealth Rock. The amount of hurt this thing can lay on an opponent really makes me wonder why it’s not seen as a lead more often. However, due to the fact that it’s not seen very often opponents tend to make mistakes when trying to counter it and that’s something you do not want to do with something that hits as hard as this. Right at the beginning of the match you typically have the option of smacking the opponent around with STAB Earthquake or Ice Shard or setting up SR when you know they’ll want to switch. The whole suicide lead build works very well for my team as Mamoswine itself hits hard, and I’m never overly worried about Mamo dyeing since by the time that happens it’s taken at least 1 or 2 pokes with it. Although, if it lives through till late game, this thing has great sweeping potential if it finds the right opportunity to switch in. Mamo also attracts many things that would commonly also counter Umbreon. That is why with Sash and such strong STAB’s it is typically able to clear them away before they can even see Umbreon, which is obviously very important for this team.

    Move Choices:
    Ice Shard: Has great synergy along with Focus Sash + Endeavor, as it packs priority and STAB. Since this Poke is my lead this move absolutely crushes any Ninjask leads who are naïve enough to try and stay in. When Mamo survives into late game this move is also a great Dragon killer, as long as I can predict a safe switch in of course.

    Earthquake: A pretty obvious choice as this Poke throws one of the meanest Earthquakes in the game with STAB. I’ve noticed that with Ice Shard and EQ, it’s typically all the coverage I need, as any of the pokes that resist it have reliable counters within my team.

    Stealth Rock: This is my only poke that has SR, which may seem funny as he is typically such a hard hitter that he only runs attacks, but seeing as many leads will switch out I set up rocks and either punish their switch in, with a strong STAB or Focus Sash + Endeavor + Ice Shard. Or I set up rocks, switch out, and wait for a good late game opportunity to let him sweep.

    Endeavor: Focus Sash + Endeavor, actually surprises many opponents, especially those using a Metagross or Aerodactyl that try to OHKO me, although admittedly I typically switch out of that situation. This move doesn’t always work, but when prediction pays off with Endeavor it really pays off by taking out things that thought they were going to counter Mamoswine. This move also has great synergy with the priority of ice shard as I’m typically able to Endeavor them to 1HP and then kill them with Ice Shard, no matter how fast they are. Also, because of that Endeavor is a great choice for things that outspeed Mamo as you can take the hit, and drop them to the same life in the same turn. Which usually opens up to a kill from Ice Shard and then the next poke switched in will either take a heavy STAB hit or be crippled with an endeavor and finished by someone else. Even when sash doesn't pull off and this guy is low on health, endeavor can still punish any bulky pokes without reliable recovery that try to switch in and finish him off.


    [​IMG]
    Umbreon(Asriel) @Leftovers
    Careful (+SpD/-SpA)
    Synchronize
    252hp 128SpD 128def
    - Toxic
    - Curse
    - Moonlight
    - Payback

    The Role:
    The star player himself, and my favourite Pokémon. I like to bring him in early just to scout out the opponents Umbreon counters. As a specially defensive wall and an over strongly defensive Pokémon he is actually quite easy to switch in. Early game I switch him in, use Toxic, hopefully hitting the counter that tries to switch in or hitting whatever stayed in. Or I switch in on something that can’t hurt me and moonlight whatever damage I’ve taken through Toxicing the opponent, and switch out. But, late game is when Umbreon shows his other side, when all Umbreon counters are taken out or crippled I switch him in on a wall or special attacker and begin to curse up. Half the time opponents have absolutely no idea how much damage and resistance a cursed up Umbreon has under it’s belt and often they leave their wall in (I love when people leave something like Blissey in and let me stat up). It’s almost laughable how often I can get 6 curses off and then begin sweeping and by then it OHKO’s almost everything and takes no damage.

    Move Choices:
    Toxic: Early game this move gets used a lot, typically Umbreon switches in, uses it, and either cripples the tank/special attacker it switched in on or cripples the Umbreon counter (with the exception of Steels that switch in). This move also gives the opponent no clues as to how this Umbreon actually works.

    Curse: An extremely uncommon move seen on Umbreon and arguably the move that makes this all work. Late game Umbreon Curses up and sweeps, it’s as simple as that. Many people don’t respect a cursed up Umbreon and that’s why they lose. It’s high defenses allow it to fire a lot of these off before it even needs to heal. After it’s fired off a lot (I’m typically able to get 6) it’s attack stat commonly allows it to OHKO with Payback (which always seems to surprise people) and it’s super high physical defense makes it easier to try and attack with a special attacker, which won’t do much damage either. People also never seem to realize that after so many Curses Umbreon laughs at things like Machamp, Infernape, and Heracross, since they can’t even scratch it with SE + STAB.

    Moonlight: Moonlight was chosen over Wish simply for the speed. Umbreon is slow and needs instant healing, especially with how I’m running it. The fact that it has great defenses to begin with, a stat up move and recovery make this godly. The low pp has never been a factor and with the help of Rotom-H sandstorm and hail aren’t even factors either (provided I choose to run Sunny Day over Shadow Ball).

    Payback:
    Another move people rarely see at all and with STAB on Umbreon and cursed up it often OHKO’s as only Steels and physical sponges can survive being OHKO and are typically 2HKO not to mention after the curses they can't hit Umbreon for any dangerous damage anyway. It has great synergy with curse as curse lowers speed causing this to almost always hit for double damage, Umbreon rarely outspeeds anything to begin with and since Umbreons defenses are so high it shrugs off the attacks that hit it first anyway. After being cursed up the only thing that hopes to survive this is Lucario due to it’s 4x resistance.


    [​IMG]
    Rotom-H(Faust) @Leftovers
    Bold (+Def/-Atk)
    Levitate
    252hp 168def 88Spe
    - Will-o-wisp
    - Overheat
    - Thunderbolt
    - Shadow Ball/Sunny Day

    The Role:
    This guy is Umbreons right hand man. He’s one of the most valuable members of the team as he is unaffected by fighting moves, which Umbreon runs from and then cripples the user of said move with a burn status. He is used to absolutely cover all of Umbreons weaknesses as Umbreon can cover his and cripple all the physical attackers of the opponent’s team (aside from Heracross, which would recieve a nice Overheat instead of Will-o-wisp). Rotom is very useful in countering water types and some of the common steels like Metagross, Lucario, and Scizor (although this team has never had a Scizor problem) that give this team a lot of trouble and together with Umbreon they provide great defensive coverage. Furthermore, Rotom-H covers almost any weakness this team has as a whole.

    Move Choices:
    Will-o-wisp:
    The most commonly used move on this bad boy as his main role is to absorb attacks Umbreon runs from and cripple the attacker with a burn. Just overall great for crippling anything relying on physical attacks.

    Overheat:
    The main reason thy this thing counters those bad steel types like Metagross and Lucario is because of this move, it hits them hard, typically OHKOing Metagross who otherwise has a an easy time with this team. This move also pairs excellently with the other moves and Rotom-H's defensive typing.

    Thunderbolt:
    Provides great STAB coverage on waters that this team has a hard time with, such as Suicune, Starmie, Gyarados etc. And aside from grounds can hit for fairly decent damage.

    Shadow Ball:
    A great STAB move to use even for scoring neutral hits against things that switch in on Electric and that you don't want to waste the Special Attack drop on Overheating them.


    [​IMG]
    Arghonaut(Jack) @Leftovers
    Adamant (+Atk/-SpA)
    Unaware
    252hp 220def 36atk
    - Waterfall
    - Brick Break
    - Recover
    - Ice Punch

    The Role:
    What a damn beast this thing is, aside from psychic attacks and status this thing is the juggernaut it’s name describes it as. His main use is to take on any opposing stat uppers that this team would have an otherwise hard time dealing with and completely ignore their hard work. Not too mention it’s great on it’s own and is able to take down many things that give Umbreon trouble. The set I use is the run-of-the-mill recover tank, so I won’t go too in depth, but I can’t help stating how good this damn thing is. I mainly use this guy to take out the likes of Tyranitar and Lucario, who are otherwise a pain to this team.

    Move Choices:
    Waterfall:
    an obvious choice, as it is Argho’s strongest and most reliable STAB that can hit even neutral pokes for decent damage.

    Brick Break:
    Very useful for hitting what Waterfall can’t and hitting for SE + STAB, it even comes in handy when the opponent wants to hide behind screens and wear my team down.

    Recover:
    Pretty godly on such a tanky Pokémon as it is. He takes hits like a champ and dishes them out as well, and when it’s all said and done he just recovers off the damage.

    Ice Punch:
    I also use Argho as my Dragon counter, especially when considering DD Mence. Unaware allows him to ignore any DD’s the Mence may have under the belt and then Argho Ice Punches him for 4xSE. Fairly straight forward for a good Dragon counter.



    [​IMG]
    Flygon(Spike) @Choice Band
    Adamant (+Atk/-SpA)
    Levitate
    252atk 252spe 4spe
    - Earthquake
    - Outrage
    - U-Turn
    - Stone Edge

    The Role:
    My second favourite Pokémon that I usually reserve for use as a revenge killer. His attack power is nothing to be laughed at and when he’s in, the opponent needs some good prediction skills or Flygon is going to lay down some big hurt. He takes prediction to use and bring in but after using him for so long, I’m quite familiar with how to use him effectively. The only thing I ever wonder is if I should use Choice Scarf over Choice Band.

    Move Choices:
    Earthquake:
    Again, fairly straight forward as Flygon packs a strong Attack stat and when boosted by STAB + Choice Band (+SE) it really hurts. The only trick is to predict when a levitator or flyer is going to try to switch in and absorb it.

    Outrage:
    Another amazingly strong STAB attack, able to take down anything hit neutrally, as well as other dragons (provided Flygon can hit first). Again, prediction is key since when using this Flygon becomes locked in and very open, so it’s best reserved for late game cleanup.

    U-Turn:
    Early game this is the move of choice, it hits for decent damage and occasionally scores a nice SE hit. I use it when Flygon gets an easy switch in early game (usually due to his good typing) and I want to scout the opponent and lay whatever damage on them that I can.

    Stone Edge:
    Is a fairly reliable move to use when in doubt. Especially after scouting an opponents team or suspecting a switch in to a Flyer when Flygon comes in, not to mention the occasional flinch hax this move provides is always nice.


    [​IMG]
    Heatran(Basker) @Leftovers
    Timid (+Spe/-Atk)
    Flash Fire
    252spe 252 SpA 4hp
    -Earth Power
    -Fire Blast
    -Substitute
    -Toxic

    The Role:
    This guy seems to not only compliment and cover my team well, but seems to cause the opponent so much grief that he finds himself invaluable on this team. Using him is simple and from my opponents perspective killing him is one huge headache. I bring him in on one of the thousand things he counters and either Toxic it or Substitute when they switch. Right after I sub and they bring in their counter, which funnily enough tends to be their own Heatran I can literally hear them say “Fuck!”. From there Heatran either Toxics the enemy or Hits them with a strong Earthpower or STAB Fire Blast and then runs to a counter. It’s super simple and super deadly.

    Move Choices:
    Earth Power:
    Earth Power is one of Heatrans strongest attacks coverage wise and it kills the other Heatrans that try and switch in, only to have me protected under a Sub.

    Fire Blast:
    Simply, this is Heatrans strong STAB attack, kills Scizor and anything else weak to it with ease and provides good coverage along with Earth Power. Even hits things neutral to it for decent damage. Putting it in easy killing range for my switch in. The accuracy difference when compared to flamethrower has never been an issue and the extra power really helps.

    Substitute:
    The heart and soul of this build. So many Pokémon can’t even scratch Heatran so they simply run, and give me the chance to Sub up. Then while under a sub I have all the time in the world to lay the hurt on whatever the opponent “thought” was going to counter Heatran.

    Toxic:
    When the opponent switches in something that Heatran doesn’t reliably hurt or something worth crippling under status, or when the opponent gets cocky and doesn’t switch out I Toxic them. While under a Sub I essentially have a free move and this with it’s Earth Power and Fire Blast coverage provide great options for crippling the enemies poke even further.




    Final Look: (A Little RMT Flavor)​

    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]

    Changes Made:
    -Replaced Thunder Punch with Stone Edge on Flygon
    -Replaced Weezing with Rotom-H

    Final Stats:
    Mamoswine:
    Hp: 361 / Atk: 394 / Def: 197 / SpA: 158 / SpD: 156 / Spe: 259

    Umbreon:
    Hp: 394 / Atk: 166 / Def: 288 / SpA: 140 / SpD: 360 / Spe: 166

    Rotom-H:
    Hp: 304 / Atk: 149 / Def: 321 / SpA: 246 / SpD: 250 / Spe: 230

    Arghonaut:
    Hp: 414 / Atk: 291 / Def: 281 / SpA: 158 / SpD: 236 / Spe: 186

    Flygon:
    Hp: 302 / Atk: 492 / Def: 196 / SpA: 176 / SpD: 196 / Spe: 299

    Heatran:
    Hp: 324 / Atk: 194 / Def: 248 / SpA: 359 / SpD: 248 / Spe: 278

    Nicknames and Team Name:
    I first chose the name of this team simply because of my poke being nicknamed Faust and that the name “Cheating The Devil” was pretty cool. However, after further examination my other nicknames fit in exceptionally well and how this team runs can be described as “cheating the devil” as the team loves to rob the opponent of KO’s they would have thought they would get. Heatran, Umbreon, and Mamoswine are the main ones who specifically do this. Heatran with Substitute, Umbreon with Curse, and Mamoswine with Focus Sash. Not to mention the rest of my reliable checks and counters on the team.

    Even though I’m atheist I could take the name in reference to how Judaism views the devil because in Judaism there is no concept of a devil like in mainstream Christianity or Islam. In Hebrew, the biblical word ha-satan which means "the adversary"or “the obstacle”. So, if I were Jewish I could just say I’m cheating my opponent, which is really what I’m doing.


    MamoswineJohnny:
    Johnny is from the song “The Devil Went Down To Georgia” by Charlie Daniels. Where a young fiddle player beats the devil in a fiddle playing contest. The Devil is also beaten again in a Re-Match with Johnny in the sequel to the song which featured Johnny Cash. Mamoswine suits this because he’s almost guaranteed the one KO, but with Focus Sash + Endeavor he’s able to make his comeback when challenged again and usually scores a KO on anything he outspeeds. Not to mention his late game sweep potential.

    UmbreonAsriel:
    I actually just chose this name because I like it, and I was first introduced to the name when I read Philip Pullman’s “His Dark Materials” series. I later also learned that the character from that series is possibly named after Azrael who is the Islamic Archangel of Death. He is also the Angel of Death in Judeo-Christian extra biblical tradition and folklore. So, even though I chose this name for no reason, it still fits.

    Rotom-HFaust:
    This is the nickname that made me even think of “Cheating The Devil”. The name is based off a classic German tale of a man (Faust) who makes a pact with the Devil in exchange for knowledge. The character is also used in other older literature by Christopher Marlowe and Goethe. The story is also brought up in the movie V For Vendetta when the character Evey (like the Pokémon eevee) notices the inscription “Vi Veri Veniversum Vivus Vici...” on a mirror which is from Faust and means "By the power of truth I, while living, have conquered the universe".

    ArghonautJack:
    Also, another name I just plain like. However, in this instance we could place the influence upon Jack from the Pirates of The Caribbean movie series or on Jack The Ripper. Jack from the Pirates of The Caribbean movies suits Arghonaut as it is a “pirate squid” and also links to the team name as Jack escapes death numerous times throughout the movies and is even brought back from the dead. Jack The Ripper has influence as he is a famously known serial killer of England who was never caught thus “Cheating The Devil”.

    FlygonSpike:
    This is the only name that I have that I like and have no connection to the team name.

    HeatranBasker:
    This name is a shortened version of Baskerville. It doesn’t really have any direct influence towards the name, but I’ll explain it anyway. I am a huge fan of the Sherlock Holmes stories by Arthur Conan Doyle and my favourite of those stories was titled The Hound Of The Baskervilles Originally the name was given to a Houndoom I had on my team but since Heatran replaced him and still looks dog-like the name stayed.




    So there you have it, any opinions would be much appreciated.
  2. Hohahihehu

    Hohahihehu

    Joined:
    Apr 1, 2009
    Messages:
    103
    Earth Power isn't STAB >.<
  3. Gooey Kablooie

    Gooey Kablooie

    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2009
    Messages:
    179
    Former Members:
    [​IMG]

    Weezing(Faust) @Leftovers
    Bold (+Def/-Atk)
    Levitate
    252hp 252def 4SpA
    - Will-o-wisp
    - Flamethrower
    - Thunderbolt
    - Sunny Day

    The Role:
    This guy is Umbreons right hand man. He’s one of the most valuable members of the team as he totally shrugs off physical fighting moves, which Umbreon runs from and then cripples the user of said move with a burn status. He is used to absolutely cover all of Umbreons weaknesses as Umbreon can cover his and cripple all the physical attackers of the opponent’s team(aside from Heracross). Also, since this poke is UU many people don’t know how to deal with it, and with out Heatran on the opponent’s team he’s guaranteed to do his job un-inhibited.

    Move Choices:
    Will-o-wisp:
    The most commonly used move on this bad boy as his main role is to absorb attacks Umbreon runs from and cripple the attacker with a burn.

    Flamethrower:
    Provides great coverage, not to mention Scizor hates taking these. It’s almost funny when it doesn’t see it coming.

    Thunderbolt:
    Also, provides great coverage on bulky waters and foolish gyarados’ and is usually used when a Heatran is lurking about just for safety.

    Sunny Day:
    One problem with Umbreon was that his Moonlight was seriously, inhibited by weather. I found Weezing already provided the job it needed to do with only three moves and being strong defensively and able to switch in on Umbreon counters he was a perfect candidate for Sunny Day. This only sees use when an opponent has an Abomasnow, Hippowdon, or Tyranitar, the latter two being relatively common enough to justify this move. Simply enough I kill the said poke causing the weather, bring out Weezing and Sunny Day the bad weather away. Sunny day has no hindrance for me as it actually makes Umbreons moonlight heal 2/3 instead of 1/2 and gives Heatrans Fire Blasts more punch. The only downside is the opponent’s fire moves become stronger but my Heatran loves when they use them, so it just becomes another plus.

    Replaced By:
    Rotom-H
  4. Drybones

    Drybones

    Joined:
    Dec 18, 2007
    Messages:
    128
    Firstly, I'd like to say that I indeed have had the privilege of facing this team on the holy field of pokemon battle.

    Lets see, curse/payback can be pretty scary. I would question the use of toxic on umby though. Lets see, common switch ins to umbreon on the CAP server... people will most likely expect some kind of mean look and or support set with wish. Lucario, scizor, and Rev will probably rear their ugly mugs, each of which will laugh at either toxic or an attempt to boost def. Over toxic I might recommend Encore as the best move ever. Basically, on anything without a boosted stab SE attack, just curse once, then encore. You'll probably catch all kinds of setups.

    On weezing, I don't know about sunny say. Replace it with pain split, otherwise weezing will be worn down by neutral hits quickly (like all those times my lucario crunched it) and won't be able to stop powerful physical sweepers. Just stick wish on umby, problem solved. Your team could use wish anyway.

    Thunderpunch on flygon is kind of meh. Hits for 150 base power, and so does earthquake on most bulky waters. I recommend roost or rock slide.

    I'm not sure where you could fit it in, but a scarfed magnezone would take care of some stuff that would be a pain in the ass for umbreon. Stuff like lucario and skarm... steels. =P


    Other than that, I felt we had one or two good games. I remember being glad to learn that heatran wasn't scarfed so my lucario could just close combat it. Another plus for maggie.


    EDIT: Can you explain umbreon's def evs? They look kind of arbitrary. I might recommend a spdef boosting nature, 96 spdef evs (which nets you a bonus point) 252 hp and the rest in def. That's the most efficient in terms of total stat points and general tankiness.
  5. The_Reaper

    The_Reaper

    Joined:
    Nov 9, 2008
    Messages:
    27
    One little thing i can suggest is that since earthquake hits most bulky waters for the same power as thunderpunch, you can replace thunderpunch with firepunch or stone edge. fire punch will hit skarmory and bronzong for SE damage while stone edge may catch opposing flyers for SE damage and hits much harder than thunderpunch as well.

    EDIT: I agree with drybones about Umbreon's ev's. it is usually more effective to EV the defensive stat that you arent raising in curse/bulk up/CM sets, etc.

    I am also skeptical about losing sunny day because umbreon will have very ineffective healing in sandstorm (sandstream cancelling lefties recovery and moonlight healing only 25%). you could test both pain split and sunny day on weezing and see which you prefer better.

    One more nitpick: umbreon only heals 2/3 or 66.7% HP in sunlight not 100%.
  6. Namso

    Namso
    is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a CAP Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2009
    Messages:
    3,304
    For Heatran, I recommend using Explosion over Toxic.

    Blissey will be raped easily if it keeps annoying the hell outta you. Also, you can suicide Heatran when it's close to fainting, bringing down another Pokemon with it almost all the time.

    You can test it and see how it goes, but I think it could be really useful in most cases.
  7. pkmn-taicho321

    pkmn-taicho321

    Joined:
    Jun 23, 2007
    Messages:
    1,734
    Lawls you still have it wrong. In the move choices for toxic it says something about 2 STABs. Solid team. I have an urge to battle it, but first i need a new CAP team!
  8. RandyBerri

    RandyBerri

    Joined:
    Aug 6, 2008
    Messages:
    83
    Hey, I will firstly say that I love the originality of this team and the effort you put into this RMT, your team is really nice. I have to admit that when I read your intro I thought "noob team", but when I read the how it works part, you got me interested and when I read through all of your team I see that you really have put in a lot of thought in it.

    The first thing that bothered me is that Weezing have no way of healing, but since it is not your primary physical wall I guess you manage to play around it. Anyhow if you have not tried it already I would ask you to try Wish over Moonlight on Umbreon and Pain Split/Whatever over Sunny Day on Weezing. This gives you more reliable ways to heal both of them.
    Moonlight is kind of gimmicky and can easily be outstalled of PP, by switching in Pressure pokemon or weather abusers as you heal for 2 PP/25% HP.
    Atleast that is my experience on it, you said yourself that the PP was not really an issue so if it works for you it shouldn't be a problem. Anyway, try out the Wish/Pain Split combo atleast as passing wishes to your other pokes may come in handy, and generally being better team support than Sunny Day.

    And also I am agreeing with The Reaper about Flygons moves, you shouldn't use Thunderpunch on it seeing as Gyarados is the only water besides Ludicolo that you will meet in OU that ThunderPunch will hit harder than Earthquake (there is also Mantine and Pelipper lol). If you keep Sunny Day on Weezing, you could use Fire Punch or Fire Blast. Punch is for Bronzong, Blast is for Skarmory, but under the sun either of them is a 2HKO (in case you are wondering Fire Punch is a still a 2HKO on Skarmory if the first attack is in the sun, while the second is not, as long as you have SR up, leftovers included). If you decided to switch out Sunny Day for something else, both of them are still viable moves, while Stone Edge/Rock Slide now is more viable as it hits Gyarados and other flyers that is trying to come in on a predicted Earthquake.
  9. tennisace

    tennisace another eggnog, please
    is a member of the Site Staffis a Smogon Social Media Contributoris a Super Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Pokemon Researcheris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a CAP Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus
    Social Media Chief

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    Like I said on the server, and you confirmed, you have issues with offensive Water-types in general, particularly LO Suicune, CM Suicune, and LO Starmie, in addition to CM Latias. In fact, you don't have a solid answer to ANY CMer. Weezing seems unnecessary, seeing as all it does is sit there. Plus, this is CAP, and everyone packs at least one Psychic move since they're so damn useful. Anyway, over Weezing, I'd suggest the standard Specs Celebi. This should give you another offensive force to ward off those pesky Water-types. I would also suggest getting rid of Umbreon on the basis that it really just sits there, but that's just my offensive playstyle. However you seem its very attached to it so I'll leave that alone. My last comment is that your team seems kinda slow, consider scarfing Flygon to revenge things like once DD'd Gyarados and Salamence.

    Edit: Didn't even think of Rotom, which could work just as well. Go with whichever you think fits better ect.
  10. The_Reaper

    The_Reaper

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    I also have another suggestion. Weezing is not exactly a reliable physical wall because it doesnt have a reliable recovery move outside of Rest/Sleeptalk, so i have a suggestion.

    Maybe you should try a rotom-appliance to replace weezing even though you seem to really like weezing a lot. Both of them have will-o-wisp to neuter physical threats and both are immune to ground attacks. Rotom also has a good typing which ALSO has synergy with umbreon (rotom is immune to fighting and resists bug and umbreon resists dark and ghost). Plus, rotom has much more power offensively with a 20 higher base sp attack(iirc?) and is generally more unpredictable than weezing since it can run many sets such as trick, ResTalk, etc. I see that you want to use electric and fire attakcs (on your weezing). Guess what, rotom has stab thunderbolt and if you use heat form, overheat as well. Try out this set:

    move 1: Thunderbolt
    move 2: Shadow Ball
    move 3: Overheat
    move 4: Will-O-Wisp / Reflect
    item: Leftovers
    nature: Bold
    evs: 252 HP / 168 Def / 88 Spe

    Alternatively, if you want more suviviablity, you can use rest/talk with tbolt and will o wisp. Also if you are desperate for weather changes, rotom CAN learn sunny day (helps heatran) or rain dance (helps argounaut) iirc.

    Rotom also counters quite a bit of physical threats, such as most lucario, metagross, and scizor.

    And thanks for reminding me that umbreon has wish Neno! I agree you should deinitely try wish out, it can also heal one of your other pokemon.


    EDIT: saw tennisace's post and hmm celebi does seem like a good option on his team.
  11. cyberzero

    cyberzero
    is a CAP Contributor Alumnus

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    You have a massive Agility Metagross weakness. The most common set on the CAP server scores super effective hits on every single one of your Pokemon with the exception of Umbreon, which it OHKOs the majority of the time with Meteor Mash.

    Metagross with Agility/Zen Headbutt/Ice Punch/Meteor Mash can OHKO everyone on your team, with the exclusion of that sashed Mamoswine, which should theoretically out early. I would second the placement of a Celebi or a Rotom on that team, but both cannot switch in for fear of being 2HKO'd. The best plan of action would be to have a Skarmory in there to protect against that and various other threats. Skarmory is also well placed between Arghonaut, Umbreon, and Heatran being able to come in and take hits, as well as Flygon if necessary. You do not lose your physical wall and instead gain instant recovery, spike access and if necessary, also use Sunny Day. Skarmory walls Scizor but cannot hit back. It also doesn't matter if it can or not because it will more often than not be switching out. Heatran can deal with Scizor most of the time, so it's normally better to leave that as the main counter. Arghonaut also helps against Scizor.
  12. Gooey Kablooie

    Gooey Kablooie

    Joined:
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    Awesome, thanks for the input, it's been super helpful so far.

    Firstly, I am going to run that standard Rotom-H set The Reaper posted over my Weezing and see how it goes. From the appearance of it, it will do the exact same job Weezing does, only better. Just to reiterate:

    move 1: Thunderbolt
    move 2: Shadow Ball
    move 3: Overheat
    move 4: Will-O-Wisp
    item: Leftovers
    nature: Bold
    evs: 252 HP / 168 Def / 88 Spe

    This thing should counter a lot of those threats mentioned: mainly Metagross, Starmie and Suicune, as well as providing necessary Umbreon support. I am not going to run Sunny Day on it (although if I believe I should, I would most likely replace Shadow Ball). The trick set also intrigued me, but that's for later experimentation.

    I actually have no real reason to have them at 128 each, except that it was what I ran when I first made the set. I've never run into a hitch where I've thought "damn I could use some Special Defense EV's" or Physical Defense EV's, so I just honestly never bothered changing it.

    As for the Wish on Umbreon and Pain Split on Weezing:
    I have actually tried both of these in the past and neither worked to my satisfaction. I've built the Umbreon to be a sort of recovery tank with a stat up and less of a supporter (Think CurseLax). As such Moonlight > Wish, due to it being instantaneous and not prone to as many mishaps. Not to mention this team focuses on Umbreon. Which is why Weezing ran Sunny Day. I had run pain split and I found it really unreliable, if Weezing were faster or could force switches it would be fantastic, but he's not, so it saw little use and reaped little reward.

    I am also going to place Stone Edge on Flygon instead of Thunder Punch. Also, the idea of replacing Toxic on Umbreon with Encore sounds quite good and interesting, I'm going to try it right after I finish up with the testing. The only problem I see with it is that Toxic is my reliable early game move and with Encore, it can really pay off and allow Umbreon an easy set up or a free switch in, but it's also risky. Although you do have a point that most common switch-ins to Umbreon try and stat boost predicting an Umbreon switch. So I guess it comes down to whether they have an SE Bug (probably only U-Turn) or Fighting moves (Which they usually do). I think the safest way is to switch in Umbreon, switch out and see what they do, and on the next time if they try the same thing I can adapt from there.

    I've also considered the use of Jolteon, Zapdos, and Celebi but I'm going to take this one step at a time with Rotom-H.

    Now let's see how this team works. :)

    Edit: All applicable changes made to first post. Also changed my second post into a record of what has previously been on my team. More changes may be made as Rotom-H testing continues.

    Edit again: ummm, yeah, Encore was a great idea but Umbreon doesn't get Encore...
  13. sbc

    sbc

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    As has been said before Agility+Zen Headbutt Gross can cause problems here as well as Infernape who outspeeds and OHKOs everyone except for Rotom and Arghonaut; the former doesn't like Flamethrower and Arghonaut iirc takes a good 65% from Grass Knot. Scarfing Rotom would help with this and provide speed to a slowish team or you could replace Umbreon with Latias.
  14. darkchicken

    darkchicken

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    After playtesting this team a bit, this thing has SERIOUS SkarmBliss problems. It would be nice to have some kind of mixed attacker in there.

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