Conquering the Metagame

[Mikey229]

Introduction​

Hey everyone, Mikey from the Smogon server here. This is my first RMT since 4th Gen, so the format may not be too pretty. Anyway, I started playing Gen 5 ever since the opportunity of downloading Pokemon Online came onto my computer screen. So anyway, I've been playing on the Smogon server for a while now, I even peeked at #14 on the Dream World OU ladder before the ladders reset after votes to ban stuff came in. In standard, I got high using Sandstorm again, but it got too boring running what's mainstream. So, at that point, I started running non-weather teams. Unfortunately, most were awful, but I feel like I'm getting somewhere with this one. It's been constantly sent to users to get some feedback, but I think that most criticism I receive isn't too helpful. Therefore, I'm asking everyone to help me make this team better. I enjoy getting feedback that helps me go up a few ranks, so let's improve my team lol. Please feel free to suggest new EV spreads, as most I use come from the analysis section, or other teams I see.

Unfortunately, I had to implement Tyranitar into my team in place of Garchomp, simply because the weakness I had to Latios and Latias was too great. Ferrothorn cannot do it all by himself, as cool as he is. That is the extent of it, I will not consider Landulos or Excadrill. Thanks for understanding.

Please realize, I deleted my thread on purpose, people were stealing my team, and it annoyed me. I then realized that I should be proud if that happens, because it shows that it's amazing.

Team Overview​









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The Main Analysis​

Please Note: Any fixes I make will be in ITALICS!!





Intrepid (Gliscor) (M) @ Toxic Orb
Trait: Poison Heal
EVs: 252 HP / 196 Def / 60 Spd
Impish Nature (+Def, -SAtk)
- Earthquake
- Acrobatics
- Fling
- Taunt

Gliscor is usually the Pokemon I choose to start things off. Ever since Gen 4, I liked using Gliscor due to its decent physical bulk, and badass sprite (Platinum's, not D/P). Most likely, at the start of the match, as long as I lead with Gliscor, I'll Protect for two reasons, those being to activate the Toxic Orb, and also to scout my opponent's first move. Usually, it's a good tactic, unless Nattorei comes out first, in which case I Taunt to stop it from setting up. But in most cases, I just Protect, or switch immediately to something that can counter or wall my opponent's lead Pokemon.

Gliscor also acts as one of my team's members to take physical attacks, usually from Pokemon such as Roob (now Conkeldurr...), Breloom, and Landulos, unless it's running Hidden Power [Ice], but I scout it to see if Hidden Power is part of its moveset. If it indeed has it, I pray that something else can take a hit, and do something to it. Usually, I rely on Jellicent to take it down, which proves to be a feeble effort sometimes.

Finally, Gliscor is very useful to my team due to resisting fighting, ground, and electric attacks, which helps cover Jellicent and Ferrothorn. Gliscor is also useful with a STAB Earthquake, that hits Heatran and Terakion hard (if they have their balloon bursted...), Taunt stops Ferrothorn and Forretress from setting up on me, and Protect gets Poison Heal recovery for me, and a good way to scout. Unfortunately, I feel like Facade isn't exactly the best move, because I only use it to get neutral damage off, or to break Terakion's balloon. Any suggestions to replace Facade with would be greatly appreciated.





Pokey (Ferrothorn) (M) @ Leftovers
Trait: Iron Barbs
EVs: 252 HP / 60 Def / 196 SDef
Sassy Nature (+SDef, -Spd)
- Power Whip
- Leech Seed
- Spikes
- Protect

Nattorei, or now Ferrothorn, is my next Pokemon. Everyone knew when the first info on Ferrothorn was released, it would be used in almost every team, and why not? It has access to Spikes, Stealth Rock, Leech Seed, Thunder Wave, and it's so bulky, which allows it to take hits from both sides of the spectrum. And come on, it's a steel/grass type, how great of a new combination is that? And we thought Forretress was useful, damn did we not see this coming. Finally we got a nice setter upper that has Leech Seed, forcing more switches than ever.

Basically, I use Ferrothorn as a water, steel, psychic, dark, ghost, and just as a pure walling Pokemon. It always does its job well, but I feel like I need to change its spread to take physical hits better, just in case Gliscor kicks the bucket. Shockingly, it takes Hidden Power [Fire] and lives with half health (a Latias Hidden Power). Also, it sometimes lives Focus Blast, which is nice.

Anyway, moveset time. I use Power Whip and Gyro Ball so it's not completely useless, and can hit Politoed, Excadrill, Landulos, and all sorts of threats. I run Spikes on Ferrothorn rather than Stealth Rock because my Garchomp takes care of setting that up, but more about that later. Spikes is so useful for my team, because they make my opponent think twice about constantly switching. 25% max damage to Pokemon touching the ground is nothing to laugh at, it racks up. Finally, I use Leech Seed as a form of recovery, and also for a way to tell my opponent that he should switch, and to buy me some time. I don't plan on replacing Ferrothorn, but any EV changes would be helpful.





Eonie (Latias) (F) @ Leftovers
Trait: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SAtk / 252 Spd
Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
- Dragon Pulse
- Hidden Power [Fire]
- Calm Mind
- Recover

Latias is a new addition to the team, and took the place of Reuniclus. I felt like Reuniclus was a lose, lose for me, because I either had to use Shadow Ball to hit Latias/Latios, or Focus Blast to hit Tyranitar, Terakion, and Ferrothorn, which are all very annoying. Therefore, I thought I'd use a different Calm Mind sweeper, since I also replaced Garchomp, my other Ice and Dragon weakness on the team. On the brighter side, Latias can take hits quite well with or without the aid of Calm Mind.

Anywhoo, I figured I still need a set up sweeper that can take a hit, and here it is. Latias is the more bulky of the Lati@s twins, so I opted for her. I cannot take full credit of this decision, Heist is the one that suggested it to me. So thanks a bunch Heist, I liked the suggestion. I also talked to Super Mario Bros on Pokemon Online a lot last night, and he thought the suggestion was nice, as well as Doomvendingmachine. Thanks guys.

Finally, the moveset and EV explanation. Dragon Pulse is there for obvious STAB, as well as letting me hit Hydregion, Mence, Garchomp, and so forth. Hidden Power [Fire] is there to hit annoying steel types that try to end my sweep, or to simply wall me. Calm Mind is used to help me set up, and gain some extra defense. Finally, Recover is there to help me get some health back, self explanatory. EV's are used to max out speed and hit points, and the little bit of leftovers was placed into SpAtk.



Whoosh (Rotom-W) @ Leftovers
Trait: Levitate
EVs: 164 HP / 252 SAtk / 92 Spd
Modest Nature (+SAtk, -Atk)
- Thunderbolt
- Hydro Pump
- Pain Split
- Will-O-Wisp

Rotom, the Pokemon who received a weird twist in Gen 5. Instead of being a Ghost/Electric type, it gained a water typing, which makes it the new Lanturn, except ground doesn't affect it. Great typing and resistances, I like it. Who needs that Ghost typing now!? Well, maybe I do, but shhh, Jellicent is cool too.

Anyway, Rotom serves to resist Earthquakes, Ice Beams, and so forth, you guys aren't dumb. Aside from it having decent defensive capabilities, it sure packs a punch on the offensive side. Now, Hydro Pump has STAB, and it sure hits things like Excadrill, Landulos, Tyranitar, etc., hard as I need it to. I think I like the twist that Gen 5 brought to us, Rotom is still as useful as ever, maybe even more-so now, but I cannot speak for everyone.

Basically, I ripped off the EV spread from someone's team a while back (sorry I don't remember who, but I give you full credit for it, seriously). It's useful, and seems perfect to me, although I don't know what the spread actually accomplishes, but who cares, lol. Anyway, Thunderbolt and Hydro Pump are there for STAB, and to counter the threats previously mentioned, not to mention Politoed, Jellicent, and so forth. Pain Split is there to screw with my opponent, and to hopefully help me recover off damage. Finally, Will-o-Wisp is there to burn my opponent, and cripple his physical sweepers, or just to help reduce their health, but either way, it works for me.





Jellie (Jellicent) (M) @ Leftovers
Trait: Water Absorb
EVs: 252 HP / 120 Def / 132 SDef / 4 Spd
Calm Nature (+SDef, -Atk)
- Boil Over
- Toxic
- Taunt
- Recover

Burungeru, now known as Jellicent, is up. A Water/Ghost type, as well as Mr. Pringles look alike, why the hell not? He's a sweet Pokemon introduced to us from Gen 5. He comes offering the ability Water Absorb, which was always nice on Vaporeon (who?). No but seriously, he actually does deserve the crown on the top of his head, because he's the freaking king of battles. He is soo bulky and squishy...and squishy, can wall stuff like Heatran for days, and can induce status problems into my opponents.

I love Jellicent due to it having a Ghost/Water typing, because it adds a cool fighting resist, which is a popular type this gen. It also sponges most special attacks with ease, and can just recover off the damage with ease. Although I feel it just does what Reuniclus does, I like Jellicent as my defender better, which means Reuniclus is replaceable. But anyway, Jellicent is in the spotlight here.

I use Boil Over rather than Recover due to the possibility of getting a burn, and with a 30% chance, it happens more often than you'd think. The burn helps shut down some of my opponents more physically offensive Pokemon, and hits them super effective as well (you, Excadrill, you). Toxic over Wisp due to Rotom already sporting it, and a Toxic user helps me ensure big threats cannot stall my team until next Friday. Recover helps me laugh off damage, and continue to jerk around, and Taunt helps me stop enemies from setting up things like Butterfly Dance, and so forth. Honestly an amazing team member.





Reyal (Tyranitar) (M) @ Leftovers
Trait: Sand Stream
EVs: 252 HP / 180 SAtk / 76 SDef
Sassy Nature (+SDef, -Spd)
- Crunch
- Fire Blast
- Ice Beam
- Stealth Rock

I know, I know, the title was a bit misleading, but let me explain why Tyranitar is here now. It was obvious that I had a huge weakness against powerful dragons, and they can literally tear me apart. Iconic suggested that Tyranitar would be a great replacement for Garchomp, and I understood why. They can both set up Stealth Rock, and Tyranitar can at least make Latias/Latios think twice about getting cocky. I guess I'm happy I made the switch, Tyranitar can at least take a Draco Meteor from Latios and hit it with Ice Beam/Crunch, which is nice. I know it's a weather Pokemon, but it's not like I'm running Excadrill and/or Landulos with it.

So let me explain the moveset and EV spread. Primarily, I need a Pokemon to set up Stealth Rock, since Garchomp was my way to do that before, and Tyranitar can do just that. Next, Ferrothorn usually thinks it can set up on Tyranitar, so Fire Blast makes it regret staying in, usually scoring an OHKO. Next, Ice Beam hits dragons and Gliscor, which I like. Finally, Crunch is great to hit Latios and Latias, and makes use of its STAB.

A Final Glance












Closing​

Well everyone, thanks a bunch for looking at my team. I tried really hard to build a team to stand up to the everyday weather team, or just any team that comes my way, and I feel like I'm getting closer to that desire. I usually beat sandstorm teams that come my way, because Gliscor completely walls Excadrill as well as Landulos, barring the Hidden Power [Ice] variants. Also, Tyranitar is dealt with by Will-o-Wisp and a strong Hydro Pump to the face. If anything, Jellicent can also put up a fight with Boil Over and Recover. Jellicent is also an answer to stopping Rain teams, and works with Ferrothorn to accomplish this. Their defensive combo is wonderful to utilize.

In all honestly, I may replace Reuniclus completely, because I feel like him and Jellicent are too similar in usage, and Latias laughs at my Reuniclus. I also feel like Reuniclus is the most replaceable of the team. If someone has a nice replacement for Reuniclus, by all means suggest it to me. I was personally thinking Latias as my new CM'er, but anything's possible, just name it.

Seriously guys, go crazy with edits, compliments (hopefully), insults (if necessary), set stealing (I don't mind, everyone does it), and so forth. I hope everyone at least enjoyed reading a team that deviates from the normal themes, like weather, and tries to stand up against it. I also hope you guys can help me improve it, and bring it to the next level as a dominating team, at least I hope that can happen. Also, feel free to post your RMT, and I will give a nice rate and suggestions as well. So thanks again for reading through, I tried to add some comedy and whit to this RMT so it doesn't sound like a robot is talking to you, which actually may be cool...see you guys later!

 

[Judas DN]

Hi Mikey229

This team looks quite solid as such i'll be limiting myself to nitpicking here, if you don't mind =)

Your Gliscor description is quite confusing, you mention Protect but it's not in the moveset? I assume that the set shown is the set you're running currently and the description is outdated correct? In that case my only suggestion would be using a much more efficient EV spread. Standard is running 72Spd to outspeed max speed Tyranitar, however to my expierence nearly all Ice Beam Tyranitars currently run Iconic's set instead which runs no speed. That's why i'd suggest to maximize your Defense instead to take Physical hits as good as possible. Also you don't need to worry about outspeeding opposing Gliscors as you currently have 3 Gliscor counters (Burunguru, Latias and Rotom-W)

The 252 HP / 60 Def / 196 SDef Sassy EV spread is on Nattorei the most optimal defensive spread mathematically speaking. However considering Nattorei will be taking Special based hits most of the times i'd really recommand just running maximum Special defenses instead. As the differences made by running an optimal spread are in fact extremely small and barely worth mentioning.

The reasons you've replaced Rankurusu for Latias don't really make sense to me. The only way Lati@s can 'beat' Rankurusu is through using Trick(or CM/Roar which is very rare) so you don't actually need Shadow Ball, same goes for Nattorei, who is just Rankurusu set up bait. Also while Latias has decent bulk, Rankurusu is just way more bulkier with Magic Guard and overall defnesive stats. Latias doesn't fix the Tyranitar problem at all, in other words the only reason you've replaced it with Latias is for Terrakion? It's quite unfortunate that you don't mention in your description why Heist suggested Latias in the first place(I know Heist is a very talented rater so i don't doubt his suggestion was good, i'm just interested what logic he used for it)

What purpose does WoW have on Rotom-W? Even the bulkiest common Tyranitar set around, Iconic's set gets 52.5% - 61.9% damage from Hydro Pump a solid 2HKO. While spreading Burn can be usefull, i'd rather use a powerfull tank like Rotom-W for offense. Hidden Power Fire would allow you hit Nattorei the most common pokemon in the game which currently can set-up entry hazards with ease in front of Rotom-W and hurts grass types in general. Also the EV spread you're currently running is quite odd, 104HP/ 252Spatt/ 152Spe outspeeds max speed Tyranitar while your current spread doesn't outspeed anything in particular.


Last but not least, Tyranitar. Of course there is nothing wrong with this set, however you claim in your descriptions that you dislike running a weather team (oh the irony). Perhaps consider replacing Tyranitar with the fellowing Jirachi set?

Jirachi@Leftovers
252HP/ 224 SpD/ 32Spe
Careful Nature
Iron Head
Fire Punch
Wish
Stealth Rock/T-wave

Takes Draco meteors from Lati@s just as well as Tyranitar(i beg to differ, even better than t-tar). Sets up Stealth Rock and can support the team with Wish. Iron Head is always fun for flinching slow opponents and Fire Punch deals with Steels(Nattorei being the most notable one). I don't see a need for ice moves here, Garchomp will KO you regardless and Gliscor is already countered by 3 other members of your team. The EV spread doesn't serve any purpose in particular, as such if you feel that Jirachi needs more power feel free to invest them into Attack . I'm not sure if it will perform better than Tyranitar did, but i'm quite confident that it will perform just as well. One can only find out with testing it on the ladder i suppose!

That's all i have to say for now, if you have any more questions don't hesitate to leave me a VM

Good Luck!

 

[Aerrow]

Hello, Mikey229. This seems to be pretty solid team you have here, so I couldn't really find any major flaws with the team at its current stage; therefore, I'll only be suggesting move-set changes in my rate. First of all, I thinking trying out Protect on Nattorei over Gyro Ball would be good idea as it'll generally be able to increase Nattorei's life in a battle, and since you rely on the Pokemon to check quite a few hard-hitters, I think its survivability would be in your best interest. Also, I suggest you try out Roar on your Latias, as this will help you better deal with Rankurusu, a major threat to your team.

Swords Dance Gliscor

Gliscor @ Toxic Orb
Trait: Poison Heal
EVs: 252 HP / 236 Def / 20 Spd
Impish Nature (+Def, -SAtk)
- Swords Dance
- Taunt
- Facade
- Earthquake

Next, I would like to address a couple of points from Judas DN's rate. I really think that Will-O-Wisp on Rotom-W plays a big part in this teams success as it helps you deal with Tyranitar, one of this team's largest problems. Also, I don't think Nattorei is going to be a huge problem if you don't run Hidden Power Fire as Will-O-Wisp on the switch will slowly weaken Nattorei down while you can switch in Gliscor to Taunt Nattorei, rendering it almost useless. Speaking of Gliscor, I suggest using the Swords Dance variant over your own, as after Taunting Nattorei, Gliscor will easily be able to set up Swords Dance and start a potential sweep. Lastly, I oppose the replacement of Tyranitar on this team, as although Jirachi would also be able to help against Latios and Latias, MixTar plays a crucial role on this team, as it generally helps weaken the defensive core of an opponent, making it a lot more easier for you other Pokemon to set up and/or sweep. I hope this has helped, and good luck!

Suggested Changes in Short

• Protect on Nattorei
• Roar on Latias
• Will-O-Wisp on Rotom-W
• Swords Dance Gliscor
• Keep MixTar on this team

 

[Judas DN]

Next, I would like to address a couple of points from Judas DN's rate. I really think that Will-O-Wisp on Rotom-W plays a big part in this teams success as it helps you deal with Tyranitar, one of this team's largest problems

Rotom-W cannot switch into Tyranitar and if Tyranitar switches into Rotom-W it gets 2HKO'd by Hydro Pump. Even when revenge killing it's more beneficial to use Hydro Pump twice due to it's higher accuracy. As such there is no real situation in which it would be better to run WoW for Tyranitar. By the time you've burned Nattorei and switch out to Gliscor it can already have both SR and one layer of Spikes up, not a favorable condition to be in at all.

I oppose the replacement of Tyranitar on this team, as although Jirachi would also be able to help against Latios and Latias, MixTar plays a crucial role on this team, as it generally helps weaken the defensive core of an opponent, making it a lot more easier for you other Pokemon to set up and/or sweep.

Weakening a defensive core may be usefull when using a hyper offensive team, however this team focuses more on staying alive in general. In such a case it's better to run something defensive that can counter more offensive threats than attempting to weaken stall. Not to mention that Iconic's tyranitar is so common nowadays that most stall players will see it comming(It's surprisingly weak when it's not attacking with super effective attacks, my Toxic Blissey for example counters it with remarkable ease)

Also, I suggest you try out Roar on your Latias

If he's running the SD Gliscor variant Rankurusu shouldn't be bringing much trouble to his team as Psycho Shock won't hurt it much. Meanwhile Roar leaves you open to Scizor/Nattorei switchins something you'd rather avoid. Trust me, running CM sets is already hard enough because of Tyranitar alone don't make it worse by allowing Scizor to switch in as well.

I agree completely with your protect Nattorei and SD Gliscor suggestions however.

 

[Aerrow]

Rotom-W cannot switch into Tyranitar and if Tyranitar switches into Rotom-W it gets 2HKO'd by Hydro Pump. Even when revenge killing it's more beneficial to use Hydro Pump twice due to it's higher accuracy. As such there is no real situation in which it would be better to run WoW for Tyranitar. By the time you've burned Nattorei and switch out to Gliscor it can already have both SR and one layer of Spikes up. Not a favorable condition to be in at all.

I don't see why Rotom-W Can't switch into Tyranitar, as the a maximum damage Rotom-W can take from, say, MixTar is about 40% from a Crunch on a good damage roll. If Rotom switches in on any one of Tyranitar's other moves (like Ice Beam or Flamethrower/Fire Blast), it'll only be taking about 20% damage. From there on out, it can burn Tyranitar rendering it almost completely useless against Rotom-W and then, by utilizing Pain Split, then, Hydro Pump, Rotom-W will have almost all of its health back with Tyranitar either eliminated or burned. And I see no reason at all to be able to eliminate Nattorei when its perfectly good set-up bait for an SD Gliscor. Yes, although it may get one layer of Spikes up, Gliscor will have a Swords Dance under its belt, which I can say from past experience, is often enough to pull off a sweep with no more than Earthquake and Ice Fang/Aerial Ace.

Weakening a defensive core may be usefull when using a hyper offensive team, however this team focuses more on staying alive in general. In such a case it's better to run something defensive that can counter more offensive threats than attempting to weaken stall. Not to mention that Iconic's tyranitar is so common nowadays that most stall players will see it comming(It's surprisingly weak when it's not attacking with super effective attacks, my Toxic Blissey for example counters it with remarkable ease)

I'm sorry but I beg to differ. I see this team as your standard "bulky offense" team, as the way I see it, its main course of action is to set up as many entry hazard layers as it possibly can (and protect them from being eliminated) then to send out sweepers to abuse said entry hazards and pull off a sweep. Even on a "semi-offensive" team like this, the weakening of an opponent's defensive core would prove to be very useful as this allows the sweepers on the team to have a much easier time sweeping; imo, by weakening or even eliminating the defensive core, this team will have a much easier time carrying out its game plan. I'm not saying that Jirachi isn't going to be fine candidate for the spot; merely, I think that MixTar just helps this teams overall structure.

If he's running the SD Gliscor variant Rankurusu shouldn't be bringing much trouble to his team as Psycho Shock won't hurt it much. Meanwhile Roar leaves you open to Scizor/Nattorei switchins something you'd rather avoid.

Yes, although Gliscor would help if facing Psycho Shock Rankurusu variants, I seriously don't think that it would help so much against Rankurusu carrying Psychic over Psycho Shock. For example, Trick Room Rankurusu would easily be able to sweep clean through this team if it were carrying Psychic over Psycho Boost (which it usually does); even CM Rankurusu wouldn't be stopped by Gliscor if it's carrying Psychic. Also, seeing as Rankurusu are commonly paired up with the likes of Terakion and Birijion, I don't even think Tyranitar would be a sufficient enough check to Rankurusu on this team. This is why I suggest trying out Roar. Finally: yes, although this does create openings for Nattorei and Scizor, which is definitely a bad thing for this team, I do think that through Gliscor (and even Tyranitar to an extent) would be able to stop the aforementioned and turn them into perfect set-up bait (although, Tyranitar can't really do this). Although opting for Roar would create some unwanted weaknesses, I do think that the advantages outweigh the disadvantages in this particular scenario.

 

[Honestly]

I think this is the best Sword dance Gliscor set for your team.

- Swords Dance
- Ice Fang
- Facade / Taunt
- Earthquake

Fun set great sweeping potential. Ice fang is a must with all these dragon pokemon running around and with one sword dance it can 1hko them all (if you got stealth rocks or spike set up). Sword dance Gliscor is great you can setup on a lot of pokemon.

 

[Mikey229]

Okay guys, thanks so much for the rates so far.

Judas DN- Well I've been having a lot of close calls, and Ferrothorn's defense EV's save it sometimes, which I do like a lot, so I'm going to keep the spread for now. Also, I'm not that worried about Reuniclus for now, because it may be getting banned, but if it's not, I may use Roar on Latias, we'll see.

Aerrow- I'm not gonna lie, I tried Protect > Gyro Ball on Ferrothorn the last few battles, and it's really good, gets me extra Leech Seed recovery, and I scout, it's a win win. Also, like I said, I'm waiting to see if Reuniclus is banned or not before I take actions against it. Finally, I've been really fond of my Gliscor as of now, it is one of the main reasons I've been winning a lot lately. But anyway, if Reuniclus isn't banned, I will probably use Roar on Latias.

Honestly- I'm just going to keep my Gliscor for now, thanks.

 

[Judas DN]

I don't see why Rotom-W Can't switch into Tyranitar, as the a maximum damage Rotom-W can take from, say, MixTar is about 40% from a Crunch on a good damage roll. If Rotom switches in on any one of Tyranitar's other moves (like Ice Beam or Flamethrower/Fire Blast), it'll only be taking about 20% damage. From there on out, it can burn Tyranitar rendering it almost completely useless against Rotom-W and then, by utilizing Pain Split, then, Hydro Pump, Rotom-W will have almost all of its health back with Tyranitar either eliminated or burned

In this hypothetical log, i'm going to assume that Rotom-W runs the set mentioned in his current team and a Tyranitar with Iconic's set. The first scenario has a Rotom running WoW, the other does not.

Latias switches out to Rotom-W
T-Tar uses Crunch Rotom loses 40% of it's health

Rotom uses WoW, T-tar gets burned!
T-tar uses Crunch Rotom loses 21% of it's health
T-tar loses 12% of it's health(Burn and Leftovers recovery, Burn goes last in end of turn damage so this time it does 12%)

At this point Rotom will have 39% of it's health left or 110HP, T-tar will have 87% of it's health left or 351HP

Rotom uses Pain Split, both pokemon have now 230HP
T-tar uses Crunch Rotom loses 21% of it's health
T-tar loses 6% of it's health

At this point Rotom will have 60% of it's health left or 171 HP, T-tar will have 50% of it's health remaining or 205HP

Rotom kills Tyranitar with a Hydro Pump

Rotom wins with 60% of it's health left
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Latias switches into Rotom!
T-Tar uses Crunch Rotom loses 40% of it's health

Rotom uses Hydro Pump T-tar loses 58% of it's health
T-Tar uses Crunch Rotom loses 40% of it's health

Rotom uses Hydro Pump T-tar loses 58% of it's health
T-Tar dies!

Rotom wins with 20% of it's health left
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
I wouldn't consider 60% of it's health to be ''having almost all it's health back''. You have 40% more health left in an ideal scenario, however since your Rotom will have to eat 3 Crunches the chances are much higher that you'll get beaten by a defence drop or critical hit, not to mention WoW's slightly lower accuracy. Personally i don't see running WoW for one set of one pokemon that you ever 'might' use to counter T-tar to be worth dropping the coverage that HP Fire gives and defeating the most common pokemon in the game.(To be honest this is the first time i've ever head someone saying that Rotom-W could be a counter to Tyranitar, usually it's the other way round lol)

Finding something for Gliscor to set up upon is surprisingly easy actually, considering it's massive bulk. The biggest problem for Gliscor is the high amount of solid counters the set has. It's usually after setting up several times, Gliscor is finally able to pull of the sweep during the lategame when it's counters have been weakened. In other words it's quite odd of you to assume that allowing Nattorei to set up both SR and Spikes is worth a free set up for Gliscor. Perhaps it isn't much of a big deal for you, but i consider my opponent having both SR and Spikes up to be an incredible disadvantage.

This may be slightly of topic but, in the Gen IV Ubers metagame nobody switched in Wobbuffet into Forretress(ask any prominent uber battler if you don't believe me). The reason was because even a free turn for Rayquaza wasn't worth letting the opponent getting 2 layers of Spikes down. I know this is not Gen IV ubers but, i'm pretty sure Spikes are just as dangerous in the Gen V metagame.

I'm not saying that Jirachi isn't going to be fine candidate for the spot; merely, I think that MixTar just helps this teams overall structure.

Yes, although Gliscor would help if facing Psycho Shock Rankurusu variants, I seriously don't think that it would help so much against Rankurusu carrying Psychic over Psycho Shock. For example, Trick Room Rankurusu would easily be able to sweep clean through this team if it were carrying Psychic over Psycho Boost (which it usually does); even CM Rankurusu wouldn't be stopped by Gliscor if it's carrying Psychic. Also, seeing as Rankurusu are commonly paired up with the likes of Terakion and Birijion, I don't even think Tyranitar would be a sufficient enough check to Rankurusu on this team. This is why I suggest trying out Roar. Finally: yes, although this does create openings for Nattorei and Scizor, which is definitely a bad thing for this team, I do think that through Gliscor (and even Tyranitar to an extent) would be able to stop the aforementioned and turn them into perfect set-up bait (although, Tyranitar can't really do this). Although opting for Roar would create some unwanted weaknesses, I do think that the advantages outweigh the disadvantages in this particular scenario.

I agree with your reasoning, which is why even you have to admit that your suggestion isn't quite solid. Like you said this team is also considerably TR Rankurusu weak, a problem a Latias with Roar cannot solve. Another scenario is in case someone runs CM Rank with a Pursuit T-tar/Scizor(this is quite common it's the reason why i've stopped using Roar Latias as my Rank counter in my stall team) means your dead as well.

That's why i'm asking you, wouldn't a pokemon like a Special defensive Jirachi be a considerable solution to this problem? It takes TR Rankurusu with remarkable ease, can flinchhax CM Rankurusu to death and it counters mixed Tyranitar as well, killing 3 birds with a stone so to speak.

I'm looking forward to your response =)

 

[Aerrow]

Wow, this has turned into quite the debate, hasn't it!

I wouldn't consider 60% of it's health to be ''having almost all it's health back''. You have 40% more health left in an ideal scenario, however since your Rotom will have to eat 3 Crunches the chances are much higher that you'll get beaten by a defence drop or critical hit, not to mention WoW's slightly lower accuracy. Personally i don't see running WoW for one set of one pokemon that you ever 'might' use to counter T-tar to be worth dropping the coverage that HP Fire gives and defeating the most common pokemon in the game.(To be honest this is the first time i've ever head someone saying that Rotom-W could be a counter to Tyranitar, usually it's the other way round lol)

First of all, Rotom-W takes ~40% of damage from Mixed Tyranitar on the best possible damage roll, so I doubt that an opponent would get that damage roll twice in a row, however I guess using 40% evens out the possible change of a defense drop, so I'll leave that part. To be completely honest, Rotom-W plays a big part on this team both synergy-wise and strategy-wise, so that extra 40% in health could often be regarded as a crucial factor.

Finding something for Gliscor to set up upon is surprisingly easy actually, considering it's massive bulk. The biggest problem for Gliscor is the high amount of solid counters the set has. It's usually after setting up several times, Gliscor is finally able to pull of the sweep during the lategame when it's counters have been weakened. In other words it's quite odd of you to assume that allowing Nattorei to set up both SR and Spikes is worth a free set up for Gliscor. Perhaps it isn't much of a big deal for you, but i consider my opponent having both SR and Spikes up to be an incredible disadvantage.

Seeing as most of his Pokemon are resistant to Stealth Rock, three are immune to Spikes and four of them have means of recovery (one of which is able to aid other teammates as well), I really don't think that entry hazards are going to be much of a problem for this especially since the Pokemon which are immune to Spikes, make up this teams' offensive core. However, yes, I guess in certain scenarios entry hazards could prove to be a problem in this teams' success.

That's why i'm asking you, wouldn't a pokemon like a Special defensive Jirachi be a considerable solution to this problem? It takes TR Rankurusu with remarkable ease, can flinchhax CM Rankurusu to death and it counters mixed Tyranitar as well, killing 3 birds with a stone so to speak.

Like I said in my previous post in this thread, Jirachi is a fine (probably on of the best) candidates for this spot, due to reasons you have already explained in detail (being able to defeat three of the main threats to this team). In all honesty, Jirachi should be tested on this team, as it significantly helps the team in terms of synergy and structure, but once again, I am merely saying that MixTar helps considerably in making sweeping a much easier task for Latias and Gliscor and therefore, should be kept on the team.


To conclude this, I just want to say that I think that we've both explained our points to the best of our abilities and that we should let the OP do some testing then get back to use on the results. We could probably go on forever arguing about which change would be best on this team, and, really, I don't think we're going to completely agree on an individual modification to this team, as we have different play styles and our preferences as to how to defeat threats differ from each other.

 

[Ian15]

Just as a referance for the debate on the Rotom vs Tyranitar, Crunch from Iconics Tyranitar hits Rotom-W for 36.3% - 42.9% percent so about 38 percent damage. This means that Rotom is taking 76 from two crunches and is left 24 after the two crunches. The other scenercios leave Rotom with about 66ish.