Other Counter That Pokemon! (Final Battle Friday @ 12 PM EST)

[MARE CLOCK]

I think starting the team with someone as flexible as Landorus-T leaves us with more options later on - if we want to focus on a powerful sweeper we have to figure out ways to support it, and all the while Team 2 will be countering it from the start, and it rather pigeonholes the directions we could go in. It's always more beneficial to begin a game with a scout who also provides offensive presence, and on the same hand that is what we are doing to Team 2 - scouting their choices instead of throwing our win condition (or one of them) out turn 1.
So on this note I really like your suggestion for Landorus-T ganj4lF , and also supporting either U-turn Lando or CM lando, haven't decided which yet.
(also I just realized I can't vote bc i don't have 40-50 posts (however many u need) XD, I will still be following the discussion though bc this is pretty awesome concept imo)

ok I guess I'll throw out a suggestion too:

Garchomp @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Rough Skin
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spd / 4 HP
Jolly Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Earthquake
- Dragon Claw
- Fire Blast

First thing, I don't think having a -SpA nature hurts his Fire Blast, it is still perfectly capable of 2HKOing Skarmory and M-Scizor with SR on the field. Second, I think this is pretty similar, if not the same as a Garchomp set I've seen floating around however I don't remember who posted it/where off the top of my head.

With that said, Garchomp is a very reliable Stealth Rock Setter with an incredible physical presence as well. His speed tier is very nice, as he is able to outspeed the Zards notably, and he can even dent would be checks/counters with Fire Blast. Rough Skin + Rocky Helmet really punishes physical attackers or other scouts such as Talonflame, who is punished for using u-turn and racks up quite a bit of recoil from Brave Bird, u-turn Lando-T, u-turn Scizor/Mega, and can even be used as a last ditch attempt at inflicting damage on a threatening sweeper such as M-Pinsir or M-Gyarados. Not to mention he's going to be intimidating for the likes of M-Mawile, Excadrill (common spinner), Aegislash, Zard X, Bisharp, Dragonite, non-scarf Kyurem-B, Heatran, and many others including denting Scizor and Skarmory who won't want to switch into him.
Garchomp is bulky enough to come in multiple times in the match, and thanks to his nice speed tier and power he is often the one forcing switches.

My one concern for this choice however is that we would be left out from choosing another Garchomp variant, such as Scarf, all out attacker, or even Mega.
Garchomp also doesn't do well against the common Mandibuzz, Thundurus-I w/ HP Ice, Mega-Man who KO's w/ rocks up w/ HP Ice, well, or anyone carrying an ice move, as well as faster versions of himself.

What Garchomp does have is speed, Utility with Stealth Rock, good coverage, excellent power and good bulk to constantly come in during the match and threaten the opposing team.

 

[acestriker19]

I love Haxorus, don't get me wrong, but its just not fast enough in my opinion. It is pretty powerful, but Skarmory, Gliscor, Lando-T, Hippowdon all wall this thing for life, have a variety of ways of dealing with Haxorus and other pokemon, and DC makes it much less terrifying. This is something that could be used as a later pick IMO.

I really agree with most of your points but I'm gonna defend myself a bit on Haxorus first off Lando-T is not really a pokemon that can switch in on Haxorus after it has picked up a Dragon Dance

252+ Atk Mold Breaker Haxorus Dragon Claw vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Landorus-T: 172-204 (45 - 53.4%) -- 89.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Landorus-T Earthquake vs. 132 HP / 0 Def Haxorus: 213-252 (65.3 - 77.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

So Landoge cannot counter Haxorus even with Dragon Claw.

The reason my investment has Haxorus so slow is that the most I see it needing to outspeed on a Dragon Dance is Gyarados so my investment is enough to outspeed adamant Gyarados and D-nite with the rest invested in bulk.

Gliscor, Skarm and Hippodown are still issues but the reason I like Haxorus is because while all these Pokemon are prominent they can all be dealt with in the same manner. Strong special attackers such as Surf Latios, Keldeo, Manaphy and others can counter all three of these options and all are very useful pokemon that like having that added justification for a spot. Hell, Gothitelle can Shadow Tag all of these Pokemon down with appropriate coverage. I can see this being a good late-game pick, but I just wanted to elaborate on why I think that Hax would be a solid first choice for the team as its counters are easy to eliminate and doubling up on Gliscor, Skarm or Hippo adds some poor synergy to our opponent.

 

[Tomahawk]

Scizor @ Leftovers
Ability: Technician
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 SpD
Adamant Nature
- U-turn
- Knock Off
- Bullet Punch
- Roost

My first nomination. What I think is best round 1 is using something that even when "countered", still does something beneficial. I think the best moves for this are: U-turn and Knock Off. U-turn is obvious, getting a free switch and a counter switching in just gives us an opportunity to rack up SR damage, and have a beneficial matchup once again. Knock Off is just as fitting though, crippling any thing that switchins. Nothing appreciates its item removed, except Mega Evolutions. Team 2 can't really pick a Mega Evolution yet anyway, because it would really remove a lot of options for them later. This is also why I like the Landorus-T suggestion. This Scizor has a notably more powerful U-turn as well as Bullet Punch though, which I think is quite useful as emergency stops like this are really helpful in this project imo. Also, I think it might not be the greatest idea to put Stealth Rock + U-turn + Knock Off all on one Pokémon, but it might work.

 

[Knight of Cydonia]

I would nominate Greninja but G-Von has beaten me to it, I would like to back up this nomination as I think it is one of the best choices to start this team. First of all its offensive presence and speed means that it can check a large amount of the offensive meta and force out a good amount of defensive pokemon as well. STAB Hydro Pump, Dark Pulse and Ice beam threaten Aegislash, Heatran, Bisharp, Landorus T, Thundurus and Garchomp - which is 6 of the top 10 pokemon in 1760 and hitting both Charizards, Rotom-w and Scizor reasonably hard means you can make team two think twice before picking these top tier pokemon.

U-turn means that attempts to wall Greninja by team two will be largely unsuccessful, eg obvious Chansey or Venusaur switch in takes hazards and U-turn and can be forced back out. More than likely team two will pick Azumarill, Keldeo, or Mega Gyarados to check it defensively
or offensively with something faster / strong priority like mega Manectric, Scarf user or Talonflame. These would be things that need to be kept in mind so something for the water types that can wall it would be necessary. Stealth Rock and even spikes support would be great since then it can soften up its own counters just by spamming U-turn early game. Something like Mega Pinsir could pair very nicely with it since Greninja can weaken Rotom-w and possibly force a t-wave sac from opposing Thundurus if team two were to choose that thanks to 122 base speed.

 

[Rosen]

MY SUGGESTION:

Quagsire @ Leftovers
Unaware
Impish Nature
252 HP / 252 Def / 4 Atk
-Waterfall
-Earthquake
-Toxic
-Recover

Unaware Quag is a marvelous Char-X check. He can use a combo of Toxic and STABs to whittle down sweepers and stall them to death. Or replace toxic with curse and turn him into a bulky attacker.

I recommend Quag do to neither teams having anything remotely resembling a hazer/phazer, and Quagsire fills this role in a unique way. I also see little no stall elements, and feel this could be apppreciated.

 

[Halcyon.]

Alright, I think we've had enough nominations at this point. I'm really happy with the turnout here, there's been a lot of good discussion and good sets. With that said, it's time to start the voting process! If you submitted a Pokemon but it is not on the list, that means that you violated the rules by either not having an adequate description of why you believe your set to be the best pick for Team 1, or you had slashes on one of the moves. This just for Round 1, so please feel free to submit more sets for Round 2. Just try to follow the rules more closely next time. The possible sets are as follows (and boy are there a lot of them) :

Calm Mind Landorus
Weakness Policy Aegislash
Swords Dance Mawile
Gravity Landorus
Dragon Dance Haxorus
Dragon Dance Mega Tyranitar
Belly Drum Azumarill
Offensive Mega Blastoise
Wacan Berry Manaphy
Defensive Rotom-W
U-turn Landorus
Defensive Clefable
Assault Vest Raikou
Offensive Deoxys-S
Choice Specs Rotom-W
Swords Dance Scizor
Life Orb Greninja
Special Sub Kyurem-B
Mixed Salamence
Choice Scarf Diggersby
Knock Off Landorus-T
Stealth Rock Garchomp
Utility Scizor


Voting begins now and will last no more than three days from now. Be sure to PM me (remember, my name is Halcyon. with a period at the end of it) with your top three choices. PMs to me should include a subject that reads "CtP: Choice 1, Choice 2, Choice 3" and then the same exact thing in the actual message of the PM. If you don't follow these rules, your vote may not count, so be sure to follow them correctly! Once I have tallied the votes, nominations for Round 2 will begin.

 

[Perseu]

I like mons with wide coverage, but i think team 1 needs to make this kind of decision in the last mon, when we know all 6 pokes from team 2 and we will manage to rearrange EVs, Moves and item according to our team needs. Like we did in the last CTP, where raikou or infernape could sweep the other team just with life orb+coverage. We have to remember this is a specific project, not a metagame team building, this means that conventional teambuilding sometimes isnt the most inteligent thing to do, so I keep my opinion that we should take a monstruous attacker to put pressure in first T2 pick, forcing them to use specific niche counters or, at best, a shaky check, coz this is how your mentality works here.

 

[Rosen]

Alright, I think we've had enough nominations at this point. I'm really happy with the turnout here, there's been a lot of good discussion and good sets. With that said, it's time to start the voting process! If you submitted a Pokemon but it is not on the list, that means that you violated the rules by either not having an adequate description of why you believe your set to be the best pick for Team 1, or you had slashes on one of the moves. This just for Round 1, so please feel free to submit more sets for Round 2. Just try to follow the rules more closely next time. The possible sets are as follows (and boy are there a lot of them) :

Calm Mind Landorus
Weakness Policy Aegislash
Swords Dance Mawile
Gravity Landorus
Dragon Dance Haxorus
Dragon Dance Mega Tyranitar
Belly Drum Azumarill
Offensive Mega Blastoise
Wacan Berry Manaphy
Defensive Rotom-W
U-turn Landorus
Defensive Clefable
Assault Vest Raikou
Offensive Deoxys-S
Choice Specs Rotom-W
Swords Dance Scizor
Life Orb Greninja
Special Sub Kyurem-B
Mixed Salamence
Choice Scarf Diggersby
Knock Off Landorus-T
Stealth Rock Garchomp
Utility Scizor


Voting begins now and will last no more than three days from now. Be sure to PM me (remember, my name is Halcyon. with a period at the end of it) with your top three choices. PMs to me should include a subject that reads "CtP: Choice 1, Choice 2, Choice 3" and then the same exact thing in the actual message of the PM. If you don't follow these rules, your vote may not count, so be sure to follow them correctly! Once I have tallied the votes, nominations for Round 2 will begin.

I don't see no Quagsire

 

[skies]

May we vote for our own sets?

 

[Ajwf]

Quagsire is a terrible lead choice even for stall, though. It's a utility counter, not a starting corner stone.

 

[Arhan]

I think we should first give Teams a starting point,with sweepers

 

[Rosen]

It seems like Quagsire is a good pokemon to add to a team later, if it for example has a huge CharX or Pinsir weakness, not at the beginning. But, you're right. It should be listed.

Oh wait, is this just leads? Nevermind, my apologies. Missed that bit.

 

[Arhan]

Oh wait, is this just leads? Nevermind, my apologies. Missed that bit.

This is not lead,but a team'a starting point,it's cornerstone

 

[Halcyon.]

Ok, I'm ending the voting now. The results were as follows:

U-turn Landorus: 7
Life Orb Greninja: 6
Knock Off Landorus-T: 5
Manaphy: 5
CM Lando: 4
Utility Scizor: 4
Sub Kyurem: 3
Offensive Deoxys-S: 2
Gravity Landorus: 3
AV Raikou: 2
Weakness Policy Aegislash: 2
DD Ttar: 1
Mega Mawile: 1
Rotom-W: 1
MixMence: 1
BD Azu: 1
Mega Blastoise: 1

So Team 1's first Pokemon will be U-turn Landorus! And with this, the next round begins! Now it's time to start picking the first Pokemon in Team 2's roster. Remember that Team 2 will get to not only pick a Pokemon during Round 2, but Round 3 as well, so it is possible to pick two counters, two checks, a counter and a focal Pokemon of their own, or any other combination. The point is that these next two rounds will take some thinking. Landorus with U-turn is a difficult Pokemon to counter, but it does have it's fair share of checks. So get to nominating!

 

[Aragorn the King]

Every good team needs a good Landorus-I check and counter. I'll propose one of my favorite checks to use:

Weavile @ Life Orb
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 Spd / 252 Atk / 4 Def
Jolly Nature
- Ice Shard
- Ice Punch
- Knock Off
- Low Kick

This is a fairly standard Weavile set, but it's still very effective. Priority Ice Shard is very useful for picking off threats fast, however, Ice Punch does the job against Landorus-I. Knock Off is a very important move now, and without it some Pokemon such as Chansey would be almost impossible to beat. Lastly, Low Kick offers coverage against Tyranitar and Heatran. Weavile checks Landorus-I well, while also operating well as an all around revenge killer. It provides nice power, support, and speed for the team, and I think it's a good choice for Pokemon #1 on team #2.

 

[Rosen]

Ok, I'm ending the voting now. The. esults were as follows:

U-turn Landorus: 7
Life Orb Greninja: 6
Knock Off Landorus-T: 5
Manaphy: 5
CM Lando: 4
Utility Scizor: 4
Sub Kyurem: 3
Offensive Deoxys-S: 2
Gravity Landorus: 3
AV Raikou: 2
Weakness Policy Aegislash: 2
DD Ttar: 1
Mega Mawile: 1
Rotom-W: 1
MixMence: 1
BD Azu: 1
Mega Blastoise: 1

So Team 1's first Pokemon will be U-turn Landorus! And with this, the next round begins! Now it's time to start picking the first Pokemon in Team 2's roster. Remember that Team 2 will get to not only pick a Pokemon during Round 2, but Round 3 as well, so it is possible to pick two counters, two checks, a counter and a focal Pokemon of their own, or any other combination. The point is that these next two rounds will take some thinking. Landorus with U-turn is a difficult Pokemon to counter, but it does have it's fair share of checks. So get to nominating!

Weavile and Mamoswine are both very good, but Intimidate hinders their functionality. I'll go with Froslass:
Froslass @ Focus Sash
Cursed Body
Timid Nature
252 SpAtk / 252 Spd / 4 HP
-Spikes
-Substitute
-Ice Beam
-Destiny Bond

Froslass is faster than all but the Scarf variants, which aren't too uncommon, but despite her frailty she doesn't take much damage from a scarfed U-Turn. At the very least, you will force a switch, and can get up a substitute, allowing 2 layers of Spikes to get up against slower foes, and oftentimes get off a kill with Destiny Bond.

Edit: Forget what I said about intimidate, forgot this was Lando-I not T. I still stand by this set, nonetheless.

 

[Halcyon.]

Ok, so recently, cbb came up with a cool SDef Dragonite that I think would be an awesome pick for Team 2.

Dragonite @ Leftovers
Ability: Multiscale
EVs: 216 HP / 64 Atk / 228 SDef
Adamant Nature
- Roost
- Earthquake
- Extreme Speed
- Dragon Claw

This Dragonite does several things for Team 2. The first is obviously countering Landorus (well, as much as you CAN counter Landorus with U-turn). BUt one thing that separates it from things like Latias is that it is both not weak to U-turn and cannot be Pursuit trapped. It also has reliable recovery and discourages Team 1 from picking Keldeo, Charizard-Y, and other Pokemon that share natural offensive synergy with Landorus simply because none of them (except Specs Icy Wind Keldeo) can break through Dragonite. The only issues I see with this is that it does put a lot of pressure on Team 2 to have Defog or Rapid Spin support to help keep Dragonite healthy, but for a defensive Pokemon, this Dragonite also has decent offensive presence, making it a great first choice imo.

 

[rachet67]

Azumarill @ Choice Band
Ability: Huge Power
EVs: 228 HP/ 252 Atk/ 28 Spe
-Play Rough
- Aqua Jet
- Play Rough
- Waterfall
- Super Power

Azumarill is a fantastic Landorus-I check. Additionally, Azumarill puts immense pressure on team 1 to chose Mega-Venusaur, a mon that can be countered easily, and a mon that would also lower team one's offensive presence. It discourages team 1 from using Tyranitar or Keldeo, both fantastic partners to Landorus-I. Superpower is to discourage team 1 from choosing Ferrothorn, which can set up on Azumarill otherwise. 28 Spe EVs is used to outpace min speed Tyranitar.

Band-Azumarill should then probably be paired with another mon that can handle Thundurus-I

 

[Knight of Cydonia]

Ah one vote in it, maybe team 2 can have Greninja.

Greninja@Life Orb
Trait: Protean
EV's: 252 SpA/252 Spe/4 Attack
Naive Nature
-Hydro Pump
-Ice Beam
-Dark Pulse
-U-turn

Revenges/forces out large amounts of the current meta including team one's Landorus I, read the previous post for further reasoning. Obviously can't switch in to Lando at all (unless you really want to risk switching into psychic) but it is hard to counter landorus with U-turn anyway. I would also be happy with the above Dragonite, it is a good starting choice for team two due to its great match up against most of the special attackers in the tier at the moment as well as bringing priority.

 

[skies]

I'll throw out an odd set I've enjoyed!

Gyarados @ Leftovers
Trait: Intimidate
EV's: 252 HP / 128 Atk / 128 SpD (boy do I feel like a noob for having evenly split EVs ;-;)
Adamant Nature
- Waterfall
- Dragon Tail
- Thunder Wave
- Taunt

This set is specifically built to counter Landorus! It obviously takes nothing from Earth Power and Focus Blast, but the SpD + HP EVs allow it only be 3HKOed by Psychic after SR. Meanwhile the rest is dumped into Attack, which gives Waterfall power and gives you a 93% chance to OHKO Landorus after SR! Will type up more later, I have to go.

 

[Mowtom]

Thundurus (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 Spd / 252 SAtk / 4 Def
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 30 Def
- Thunder Wave
- Thunderbolt
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Focus Blast

While looking at the suggestions for counters thrown out so far, I've noticed that most of them cannot counter Landorus. Weavile and Greninja are OHKO'd by Focus Blast, Froslass can't take a single Earth Power, and while Azumarill can take any one hit, it just barely fails to OKHO with Aqua Jet and is 2HKO'd by Earth Power. Dragonite and Gyardos are the only suggestions so far who are actual counters. With that in mind, I'd like to suggest the above Thundurus set. It avoids an OHKO from any of Landorus' moves, even after SR damage, and outspeeds and OHKOs with HP Ice. Since Landorus chose a -SpD Nature, we don't need a Life Orb to OHKO, and can use Leftovers for slightly more longevity. With proper prediction, Thundurus can aviod switching into a Psychic (though it can if it needs to), and have significantly more survivability. Finally, Thundurus is one of those Pokemon that can fit on almost any team, so choosing it doesn't limit our further teambuilding.

 

[Red Cat]

I'll throw out an odd set I've enjoyed!

Gyarados @ Leftovers
Trait: Intimidate
EV's: 252 HP / 128 Atk / 128 SpD (boy do I feel like a noob for having evenly split EVs ;-;)
Adamant Nature
- Waterfall
- Dragon Tail
- Thunder Wave
- Taunt

This set is specifically built to counter Landorus! It obviously takes nothing from Earth Power and Focus Blast, but the SpD + HP EVs allow it only be 3HKOed by Psychic after SR. Meanwhile the rest is dumped into Attack, which gives Waterfall power and gives you a 93% chance to OHKO Landorus after SR! Will type up more later, I have to go.

You don't want to have a counter that is too specialized for countering Landorus because it will be very easy for Team 1 to find a counter for this Gyarados set. You ideally want something which can counter Landorus and also limit Team 1's choices for its team.

 

[scorpdestroyer]

Mandibuzz @ Leftovers
Trait: Overcoat
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
- Foul Play
- U-turn
- Defog
- Roost

Dragonite, Gyarados and Thundurus are pretty good counters although the former two have 4x weaknesses that are really exploitable with U-turn Lando + teammate. Meanwhile Thundurus can only switch in like once. My suggestion is Mandibuzz, which has a pretty good typing that resist all moves but Focus Blast but even then needs good prediction + SR + 2 high rolls + 2 hits to 2HKO. Other advantages of Mandibuzz include not having very exploitable weaknesses and being able to fit onto many team archetypes. In addition, Mandibuzz has access to Defog which discourages VoltTurn + entry hazards and allows team 2 to play more aggressively with switching. Finally, U-turn allows team 2 to gain momentum vs Landorus-I and pretty much everything that Mandibuzz walls because of its lack of Speed, as well as allows team 2 to avoid any potential Defiant Thundurus.

calc

252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Focus Blast vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Mandibuzz: 152-179 (35.8 - 42.2%) -- 14.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

 

[Rosen]

Thundurus (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 Spd / 252 SAtk / 4 Def
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 30 Def
- Thunder Wave
- Thunderbolt
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Focus Blast

While looking at the suggestions for counters thrown out so far, I've noticed that most of them cannot counter Landorus. Weavile and Greninja are OHKO'd by Focus Blast, Froslass can't take a single Earth Power, and while Azumarill can take any one hit, it just barely fails to OKHO with Aqua Jet and is 2HKO'd by Earth Power. Dragonite and Gyardos are the only suggestions so far who are actual counters. With that in mind, I'd like to suggest the above Thundurus set. It avoids an OHKO from any of Landorus' moves, even after SR damage, and outspeeds and OHKOs with HP Ice. Since Landorus chose a -SpD Nature, we don't need a Life Orb to OHKO, and can use Leftovers for slightly more longevity. With proper prediction, Thundurus can aviod switching into a Psychic (though it can if it needs to), and have significantly more survivability. Finally, Thundurus is one of those Pokemon that can fit on almost any team, so choosing it doesn't limit our further teambuilding.

#FOCUSSASH

 

[Mowtom]

#FOCUSSASH

How would that change anything?

 

[Rosen]

How would that change anything?

First off, as Froslass outspeeds Landorus and OHKOs with Ice Beam, nobody in their right mind would leave in Landorus on Froslass in the hopes of KOing it.

252 SpA Froslass Ice Beam vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Landorus: 508-604 (158.7 - 188.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Right. So. Say Landorus is running the not-so-common Choice Scarf set.

252+ SpA Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Froslass: 256-303 (91.1 - 107.8%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO

Fails to OHKO 100% of the time. Even if it does KO, the Sash stops it.

Understand where I'm coming from?

 

[Mowtom]

First off, as Froslass outspeeds Landorus and OHKOs with Ice Beam, nobody in their right mind would leave in Landorus on Froslass in the hopes of KOing it.

252 SpA Froslass Ice Beam vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Landorus: 508-604 (158.7 - 188.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Right. So. Say Landorus is running the not-so-common Choice Scarf set.

252+ SpA Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Froslass: 256-303 (91.1 - 107.8%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO

Fails to OHKO 100% of the time. Even if it does KO, the Sash stops it.

Understand where I'm coming from?

Ohhhh, you meant for your Froslass. Fair enough, a Focus Sash does stop the KO. I derped there. However, as it stands, your set cannot be chosen because there are slashed in it. You may want to remove those.