Creative and Underrated Sets

Yeah I don't see much sap sipper in BH and soundproof is not uncommon, but I like the sound based move to bypass subs. Most soundproof users I see are things like Zygarde-C, which is already quad weak to blizzard anyway.
 
Sap Sipper is mostly used by Swampert, and even then only occasionally and most commonly on low ladder. Beyond that, it's largely niche Imposter-proofing stuff, like Sap Sipper (Mega) Diancie to check a Mega Sceptile set. Sing is probably better though because you'd be lucky enough to uncover all the Sap Sippers using Grass Whistle.
 

Greninja-Ash
@ Life Orb
Ability: Liquid Voice
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Boomburst
- Moonblast (for Dragon)
- Blue Flare (for Grass)
- Thunderbolt (for Water)

Hey everyone! I just started BH, and I made this interesting set. It's pretty simple, Liquid Voice STAB LO Boomburst + a bunch of coverage. I used Ash-Greninja because it's the fastest Water-type, and has the second-most SpAtk of all Water types, behind Kyogre. That's pretty impressive. This set turns Ash-Greninja into a fearsome sweeper, obviously.

What do you think?


tl;dr: Liquid Voice STAB LO Boomburst + a bunch of coverage :3
 

Greninja-Ash
@ Life Orb
Ability: Liquid Voice
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Boomburst
- Moonblast (for Dragon)
- Blue Flare (for Grass)
- Thunderbolt (for Water)

Hey everyone! I just started BH, and I made this interesting set. It's pretty simple, Liquid Voice STAB LO Boomburst + a bunch of coverage. I used Ash-Greninja because it's the fastest Water-type, and has the second-most SpAtk of all Water types, behind Kyogre. That's pretty impressive. This set turns Ash-Greninja into a fearsome sweeper, obviously.

What do you think?


tl;dr: Liquid Voice STAB LO Boomburst + a bunch of coverage :3
I like your creativity. But unfortunately most of us vastly prefer Primal Kyogre over Ash-Greninja because it has more power and is less susceptible to -ate users. Greninja-Ash has a selling point over Primal Kyogre in Speed and access to secondary typing but then Mega Gyarados becomes an issue. This leaves the set heavily reliant on its coverage to bypass its checks and in this aspect, Primal Kyogre is better due to much better power.

What I can suggest you to do with that set is just use Primordial Sea + Life Orb / Choice Specs because that has more power:

Liquid Voice + Boomburst: 140 * 1.5 (STAB) = 210 BP
Primordial Sea + Life Orb + Steam Eruption = 110 * 1.5 (STAB) * 1.5 (Rain) = 247.5

Anyways, I think you got right ideas to start out and welcome to BH. Thank you for sharing your set and have a good day.
 

Zygarde-Complete @ Leftovers
Ability: Power Construct
EVs: 240 HP / 252 Def / 16 SpD
Impish Nature
- Thousand Arrows
- Glare / Dragon Tail
- Haze
- Rest

This is a gimmick I was using in Anything Goes to keep two of my alts around 1700. As I was trying to find checks to DD Mega Rayquaza without Outrage, Marshadow, Extreme Killer, SD Groundceus, and double dance Primal Groudon, this is what I have ended up with.

Due to lack of Sleep Talk, this set unfortunately is very susceptible to Gothitelle and Mega Gengar, especially Hex variants and therefore require some dedicated team support; I always pair this guy with Lum TTar, and it appreciates Zygarde's ability to check physical attackers with its colossal bulk while it can switch into stuff like Yveltal and trap Mega Gengar in return.

Glare has been pretty amazing so far; no types except Electric are immune to it and it is really good when punishing stuff like Xerneas or Fairyceus when they come in. It also lets Zygarde-C be a reliable answer to shut down Primal Groudon and Grounceus and stalling their STAB moves' pp with Haze because Zygarde takes around 17% from Groundceus' Equake. Dragon Tail is an alternative that keeps Gothitelle from trapping Zygarde. Sadly Rest is the only way Zygarde-C can remain healthy.

This set, I personally think, has many notable strength while having some crippling drawbacks. It simultaneously handles majority of Baton Pass teams, is a check to most SD Arceus variants that is not named Marshadow, checks Marshadow itself, while spreading status. It is a perfect fit on any team that is built around Hex Gengar imo.

But at the same time, it can only fit on teams that can afford to lose some momentum. Glare alleviates this issue, but once Zygarde-C is weakened enough to have to press Rest, that is when this set becomes a burden to your team. Also as mentioned, trappers are hassle as well.

Here are some replays:

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7anythinggoes-649073290
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7anythinggoes-657709584
 
I like your creativity. But unfortunately most of us vastly prefer Primal Kyogre over Ash-Greninja because it has more power and is less susceptible to -ate users. Greninja-Ash has a selling point over Primal Kyogre in Speed and access to secondary typing but then Mega Gyarados becomes an issue. This leaves the set heavily reliant on its coverage to bypass its checks and in this aspect, Primal Kyogre is better due to much better power.

What I can suggest you to do with that set is just use Primordial Sea + Life Orb / Choice Specs because that has more power:

Liquid Voice + Boomburst: 140 * 1.5 (STAB) = 210 BP
Primordial Sea + Life Orb + Steam Eruption = 110 * 1.5 (STAB) * 1.5 (Rain) = 247.5

Anyways, I think you got right ideas to start out and welcome to BH. Thank you for sharing your set and have a good day.

Greninja-Ash
@ Life Orb
Ability: Liquid Voice
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Boomburst
- Moonblast (for Dragon)
- Blue Flare (for Grass)
- Thunderbolt (for Waytegr)

Hey everyone! I just started BH, and I made this interesting set. It's pretty simple, Liquid Voice STAB LO Boomburst + a bunch of coverage. I used Ash-Greninja because it's the fastest Water-type, and has the second-most SpAtk of all Water types, behind Kyogre. That's pretty impressive. This set turns Ash-Greninja into a fearsome sweeper, obviously.
What do you think?
Tl;dr: Liquid Voice STAB LO Boomburst + a bunch of coverage :3
To elaborate on what may be a good use of moves with Primordial Sea, based on the coverage you want against certain types:

Set Name: Raininja

Greninja-Ash @ Life Orb / Choice Specs
Ability: Primordial Sea
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Steam Eruption
- Clanging Scales / Core Enforcer (for Dragon)
- Hurricane (for Grass)
- Thunder (for Water)

Hurricane and Thunder are perfect accuracy, and have 30% chances to inflict a condition. Clanging Scales deals more damage than Core Enforcer, But Core Enforcer can be used on the switch to disable an ability - both deal more than Moonblast on Dragon types, except Mega-Altaria, especially against the odd Reshiram/Mega-Charizard-X.

Hurricane also had to replace Blue Flare as Primordial Sea prevents it, but don’t worry, as RNG pointed out, Steam Eruption would replace Boomburst, which has a 30% chance to burn (even higher than Blue Flare’s 20%).

I disagree that Mega-Gyarados competes with Ash-Greninja due to its typing. Ash-Greninja is used for fast Special Attacks in HO, while Mega-Gyarados is used for bulky physical offense, so Ash-Greninja is not outclassed - at least when it comes to Special Attack oriented sets, like the one being discussed...

Mega-Gyarados = 70 SpA VS Ash-Greninja = 153 SpA
That should be reason enough to use Ash-Greninja for a role Mega-Gyarados cannot fulfill.

Furthermore, unlike Kyogre, Greninja is immune to moves called by Prankster as well as the ever common Psychic-type moves spammed, I.e. switching in on moves like Stored Power, Psychoo Boost, Psystrike, etc.
Beyond that point, it won’t need to waste a turn or moveslot trying to outspeed powerful threats like MMX, and MMX will think twice about trying to check it, as even if it survives the Water hit, it might get burned and faint at the end of the turn... if it survives:
252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja-Ash Steam Eruption vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Mewtwo-Mega-X in Heavy Rain: 360-424 (86.5 - 101.9%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

For anyone saying what about Grass types like Kartana, which usually carries Flash Fire:

252 SpA Life Orb Greninja-Ash Steam Eruption vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Kartana in Heavy Rain: 290-342 (90 - 106.2%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

* Specs is gauranteed to 1HKO. Kyogre would fear STAB Power Whip and have to switch out due to going second.

For Kyurem-Black:
252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja-Ash Clanging Scales vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Kyurem-Black: 344-406 (75.7 - 89.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

252+ Atk Icicle Plate Refrigerate Kyurem-Black Fake Out vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Greninja-Ash: 64-76 (18.3 - 21.8%) -- possible 5HKO

252+ Atk Icicle Plate Refrigerate Kyurem-Black Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Greninja-Ash: 127-150 (36.4 - 43.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

After Def Drop:
252+ Atk Icicle Plate Refrigerate Kyurem-Black Fake Out vs. -1 252 HP / 252 Def Greninja-Ash: 97-114 (27.8 - 32.7%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
252+ Atk Icicle Plate Refrigerate Kyurem-Black Extreme Speed vs. -1 252 HP / 252 Def Greninja-Ash: 192-226 (55.1 - 64.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Still survives:Greninja nails it on the switch in, and if it doesn’t, then it takes both the Fake-Out and Extreme Speed before using Clanging Scale for the KO.
Higher speed than MMX, and just enough power allows it to carve out its own niche, even if more vulnerable to -ate.

TLDR- take full advantage of rain while still maintaining the same type coverage with even stronger STAB based on the original concept by letterman4 and Primordial Sea and Steam Eruption suggested by RNGIsFatal
 
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To elaborate on what may be a good use of moves with Primordial Sea, based on the coverage you want against certain types:
Set Name: Raininja

Greninja-Ash @ Life Orb / Choice Specs
Ability: Primordial Sea
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Steam Eruption
- Clanging Scales / Core Enforcer (for Dragon)
- Hurricane (for Grass)
- Thunder (for Water)

Hurricane and Thunder are perfect accuracy, and have 30% chances to inflict a condition. Clanging Scales deals more damage than Core Enforcer, But Core Enforcer can be used on the switch to disable an ability - both deal more than Moonblast on Dragon types, except Mega-Altaria, especially against the odd Reshiram/Mega-Charizard-X.

Hurricane also had to replace Blue Flare as Primordial Sea prevents it, but don’t worry, as RNG pointed out, Steam Eruption would replace Boomburst, which has a 30% chance to burn (even higher than Blue Flare’s 20%).

I disagree that Mega-Gyarados competes with Ash-Greninja due to its typing. Ash-Greninja is used for fast Special Attacks in HO, while Gyarados is used for bulky offense, at least when it comes to Special Attack oriented sets, like the one being discussed...

Mega-Gyarados = 70 SpA VS Ash-Greninja = 153 SpA
That should be reason enough to use Ash-Greninja for a role Mega-Gyarados cannot fulfill.

Furthermore, unlike Kyogre, Greninja is immune to both moves called by Prankster as well as the ever common Psychic-type moves spammed, I.e. switching in on moves like Stored Power, Psychoo Boost, Psystrike, etc.
Beyond that point, it won’t need to waste a turn or moveslot trying to outspeed powerful threats like MMX, and MMX will think twice about trying to check it, as even if it survives the Water hit, it might get burned and faint at the end of the turn... if it survives:
252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja-Ash Steam Eruption vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Mewtwo-Mega-X in Heavy Rain: 360-424 (86.5 - 101.9%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

For anyone saying what about Grass types like Kartana, which usually carries Flash Fire:

252 SpA Life Orb Greninja-Ash Steam Eruption vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Kartana in Heavy Rain: 290-342 (90 - 106.2%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

* Specs is gauranteed to 1HKO. Kyogre would fear STAB Power Whip and have to switch out due to going second.
Higher speed than MMX, and just enough power allows it to carve out its own niche, even if more vulnerable to -ate.

TLDR- take full advantage of rain while still maintaining the same type coverage with even stronger STAB based on the original concept by letterman4 and Primordial Sea and Steam Eruption suggested by RNGIsFatal
I meant to say Ash-Greninja has harder time breaking past Mega Gyarados with its lower raw power. Because both Ash-Greninja and Primal Kyogre have their STAB's resisted by aforementioned pokemon, they have to rely on coverages to break through it, and in that case, Primal Kyogre's higher Sp.Atk puts it over the edge.
 
I meant to say Ash-Greninja has harder time breaking past Mega Gyarados with its lower raw power. Because both Ash-Greninja and Primal Kyogre have their STAB's resisted by aforementioned pokemon, they have to rely on coverages to break through it, and in that case, Primal Kyogre's higher Sp.Atk puts it over the edge.
Choice Specs
252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja-Ash Thunder vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Gyarados-Mega: 268-316 (68 - 80.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Choice Specs Kyogre-Primal Thunder vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Gyarados-Mega: 304-358 (77.1 - 90.8%) -- 25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
————
Life Orb
252 SpA Life Orb Greninja-Ash Thunder vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Gyarados-Mega: 234-276 (59.3 - 70%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Life Orb Kyogre-Primal Thunder vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Gyarados-Mega: 265-312 (67.2 - 79.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
————
Both end up as 2HKOs even with Stealth Rocks, so Greninja-Ash can be threatened by maybe having weaker defenses, but Gyarados-Mega typically carries moves that Ash-Greninja is resistant to including Spectral Thief on Molder Breaker sets, occasionally SunSteel Strike, it’s own STAB moves like Knock-Off, etc.
 
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I look at that set and I can spot a huge problem that can be summed up in three words: Red Orb Groudon.

More words though? Sure. Primordial Sea gets replaced, Steam Eruption fails, Thunder fails, Hurricane's accuracy becomes worthless. Greinja's best chance to win the match-up is to hit with this on the switch.

252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja-Ash Clanging Scales vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Groudon-Primal: 172-203 (42.5 - 50.2%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO

Which means it loses 99.6 % of the time even with a manual switch. Or just outright if Pdon gets a safe switch in.

252+ Atk Groudon-Primal Precipice Blades vs. -1 252 HP / 252 Def Greninja-Ash: 418-493 (120.1 - 141.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Pdon also 2HKOs Greinjash if it opts for Core instead, vs a 3HKO Ash needs to win.

252+ Atk Groudon-Primal Precipice Blades vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Greninja-Ash: 280-330 (80.4 - 94.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

The other alternative is to run LO and successfully Core on the switch and follow with Steam Eruption. LO loses in any other situation where 'Don is healthy, however. This does assume Precipice 'Don vs Thousand Arrowaves or the rare Earthquake, however. On the other hand, it also assumes a 'Don without Fusion Bolt, Bolt Strike, or Solar Blade.

Fortunately for Ash, there aren't any Fairies routinely running Deso Land, as such a set would hard counter this set. Makes for a good idea for Improofing though.
 
I look at that set and I can spot a huge problem that can be summed up in three words: Red Orb Groudon.

More words though? Sure. Primordial Sea gets replaced, Steam Eruption fails, Thunder fails, Hurricane's accuracy becomes worthless. Greinja's best chance to win the match-up is to hit with this on the switch.

252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja-Ash Clanging Scales vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Groudon-Primal: 172-203 (42.5 - 50.2%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO

Which means it loses 99.6 % of the time even with a manual switch. Or just outright if Pdon gets a safe switch in.

252+ Atk Groudon-Primal Precipice Blades vs. -1 252 HP / 252 Def Greninja-Ash: 418-493 (120.1 - 141.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Pdon also 2HKOs Greinjash if it opts for Core instead, vs a 3HKO Ash needs to win.

252+ Atk Groudon-Primal Precipice Blades vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Greninja-Ash: 280-330 (80.4 - 94.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

The other alternative is to run LO and successfully Core on the switch and follow with Steam Eruption. LO loses in any other situation where 'Don is healthy, however. This does assume Precipice 'Don vs Thousand Arrowaves or the rare Earthquake, however. On the other hand, it also assumes a 'Don without Fusion Bolt, Bolt Strike, or Solar Blade.

Fortunately for Ash, there aren't any Fairies routinely running Deso Land, as such a set would hard counter this set. Makes for a good idea for Improofing though.
But Ash-Greninja could switch into a Groudon as a Check, remove its fire moves and threaten with Steam Eruption. Usually counters are not handled by the ones they threaten, in this case Ash-Greninja can check it by switching into Fire moves, or into Precipice Blades (no Defense drops).
It will barely survive, but it will survive, and if Primal Groudon (post Red Orb) uses Thousand Arrows, then it will survive at an even healthier amount.

Anyways, this isn’t to say the set is good, it is again just an upgrade of the letterman4 set that RNGIsFatal tried to assist in updating. Thunder obviously replaces Thunderbolt, Steam Eruption over Liquid Voice, Hurricane over Blue Flare, and Clanging Scales or Core Enforcer over Moonblast (which is also resisted by Groudon-Primal).
——
I saw this in a battle against me, and thought it was situational, but surprisingly effective when pulled off. Lopunny-Mega has all of the right elements; fastest Normal or Fighting type, immune to Spectral Thief and Moongeist Beam (and now priority), and with Shell Smash it can likely outspeed even Unburden users because Focus Sash keeps it alive the turn it Shell Smashes.

Set Name: Royal Troll

Lopunny-Mega @ Focus Sash
Ability: Queenly Majesty
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Shell Smash
- Flail
- Reversal
- Spectral Thief

Shell Smash, consume Focus Sash to handle a hit and survive at 1 HP, and proceed to sweep at 300 Base Power (including STAB), with Spectral Thief serving as a last resort to hit Ghosts and to steal boosts as it goes first.

The best part is that is just sits there comfortably safe at 1 HP, and unlike Stored Power or Power Trip, Lopunny doesn’t even have to use a set up move to reach 300 Base power (as long as it survives a hit at 1 HP, it’s already at 300 Base power). There is nothing more trolley than a Pokémon at 1 HP just surviving right in your face, move over Shedinja, there is a new 1 HP troll and her name is Lopunny-Mega.

I think the user had it with Jolly but I am going for Adamant because the extra power difference when magnified by Shell Smash helps.

I’ll pull a replay later.

Counters; Rocky Helmet, Hazards, etc.
 
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But Ash-Greninja could switch into a Groudon as a Check, remove its fire moves and threaten with Steam Eruption. Usually counters are not handled by the ones they threaten, in this case Ash-Greninja can check it by switching into Fire moves, or into Precipice Blades (no Defense drops).
It will barely survive, but it will survive, and if it uses Thousand Arrows, then it will survive at an even healthier amount.

Check – A Pokémon that is designated to stop a threat, but cannot reliably counter one, being unable to withstand repeated attacks from it, such as switching into the threat repeatedly. Checks can use high damaging attacks or other category moves that seek to impair functioning, to scare off their respective threats.

http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/competitive-battling-basics-tiering-faq.3545934/#post-6357917

Primal Groudon with Red Orb usually goes +SpDef to be psuedo check to Diancie and Primal Kyogre in certain situations and it mostly uses Stealth Rock. Also if you are in a situation where you have to switch in Ash-Greninja to Primal Groudon and not someting like Poison Heal Giratina, it is just a serious systemic issue with your team, taht is all I can say. It doesn't switch into Thousand Arrows more than once. Yes, a check doesn't have to switch into a threat over and over but not being able to come in more than once is not something anyone would call "switch into something as a check". If you are still going to insist Ash-Greninja can handle Primal Groudon because it can switch in and force it out, be my guest, because with that logic Primordial Sea Kyogre is objectively better because it has way more bulk, Prankster move barring Prankster Haze / Destiny Bond has been declining and as MMY rose as a top threat, they became even less relevant. There is a reason why viability ranking puts Primal Kyogre is on top of Ash-Greninja (which should have been unranked at this point). Primal Kyogre at least dents switch-in better than Ash-Greninja does, making it superior option when it comes to using threatening move as a check. What you are arguing over sounds like "Golduck has niche over Primal Kyogre in Ubers due to it being able to switch in and threaten Primal Groudon with its STAB while barely surviving an attack".

If you are unsure about something in the current metagame at least make some observations in the mid / high ladder and test out things before you say stuff, because (I hate to say) most of the things you say often end up providing either wrong or very insignificant information. I tried to tell you this on profile instead of calling you out here but you limited members who can view your profile for some reason.
 
Check – A Pokémon that is designated to stop a threat, but cannot reliably counter one, being unable to withstand repeated attacks from it, such as switching into the threat repeatedly. Checks can use high damaging attacks or other category moves that seek to impair functioning, to scare off their respective threats.

http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/competitive-battling-basics-tiering-faq.3545934/#post-6357917

Primal Groudon with Red Orb usually goes +SpDef to be psuedo check to Diancie and Primal Kyogre in certain situations and it mostly uses Stealth Rock. Also if you are in a situation where you have to switch in Ash-Greninja to Primal Groudon and not someting like Poison Heal Giratina, it is just a serious systemic issue with your team, taht is all I can say. It doesn't switch into Thousand Arrows more than once. Yes, a check doesn't have to switch into a threat over and over but not being able to come in more than once is not something anyone would call "switch into something as a check". If you are still going to insist Ash-Greninja can handle Primal Groudon because it can switch in and force it out, be my guest, because with that logic Primordial Sea Kyogre is objectively better because it has way more bulk, Prankster move barring Prankster Haze / Destiny Bond has been declining and as MMY rose as a top threat, they became even less relevant. There is a reason why viability ranking puts Primal Kyogre is on top of Ash-Greninja (which should have been unranked at this point). Primal Kyogre at least dents switch-in better than Ash-Greninja does, making it superior option when it comes to using threatening move as a check. What you are arguing over sounds like "Golduck has niche over Primal Kyogre in Ubers due to it being able to switch in and threaten Primal Groudon with its STAB while barely surviving an attack".

If you are unsure about something in the current metagame at least make some observations in the mid / high ladder and test out things before you say stuff, because (I hate to say) most of the things you say often end up providing either wrong or very insignificant information. I tried to tell you this on profile instead of calling you out here but you limited members who can view your profile for some reason.
Again this was expanding on a set you were focused on improving for someone else...

I never said it was the ideal option, just that apparently just as Groudon can switch in and Threaten it, it can do the same. At least Greninja has a 100% to KO Groudon once it has switched in to make the weather rain. Please stop suggesting I want this to be listed as the counter to Groudon. I don’t. I said it can Check Groudon, who was listed as a counter to Ash-Greninja.

Also: It does fit the definition of Check, as you highlighted, since it isn’t required to switch in repeatedly. and to be fair, Primordial Sea does allow it to switch into Fire moves at any point, so there is that switch-in scenario on top of surviving he switch into Precipice Blades.

Also, as Rumors pointed out, Groudon can carry Bolt Strike, Fusion Bolt, Solar Blade Etc. and can speed tie with Kyogre-Primal, meaning Kyogre-Primal is actually threatened by Groudon as well, where in this case, Speed and movepool outrank SpA and HP stats as most Kyogre won’t be able to use Water moves.

252 Atk Groudon-Primal Bolt Strike vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Kyogre-Primal: 280-330 (69.3 - 81.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
-Add stealth Rocks and you may have taken 93.85% damage... and that is with a Def boosting nature.

Without a Defensive Nature:
252 Atk Groudon-Primal Bolt Strike vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Kyogre-Primal: 306-362 (75.7 - 89.6%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

If weather is in Groudon’s favor, as most Kyogre don’t carry Primordial Sea and opt for other abilities, etc.

It usually will mean Kyogre’s moves won’t KO Groudon, but in this case because we are specially discussing Primordial Sea Ash-Greninja, it just happens to negate and takeover the weather which allows it to do things Kyogre cannot, as Kyogre-Primal just doesn’t usually use the same ability in its common sets, regardless of stats.

I only made the point that if needed, for example - as a last resort it, it could revenge Check and switch into even Groudons most powerful STAB attack coming off of Adamant nature (based on the above calculations in previous posts).

Since you mentioned it, most Groudon have a +SpD (Careful) Nature, which means it will deal less damage than Adamant:
252 Atk Groudon-Primal Precipice Blades vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Greninja-Ash: 255-300 (73.2 - 86.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

It can even survive switching into Stealth Rocks, take the Precipice Blades, change weather and KO with Steam Eruption.
——
Again, I am not running out screaming to everyone to begin using it, I am expanding on your idea to improve their set: For their specific team, for their specific goal (type coverage). Afterall, you wanted to change their set by suggesting the ability Primordial Sea, the move Steam Eruption, and even the items Choice Specs/Life Orb, I simply wanted to find additional moves to complement what you had suggested. :)

I was just acknowledging it can even survive the strongest STAB attack by its counter and check it in return, which just goes to show it isn’t as bad as originally thought, more of a surprise selling point to letterman4, rather than something to hold on to as the main reason.
#CaseClosed.
 
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Lcass4919

The Xatu Warrior
another small niche of ash gren is it can run water spout since its speed tier puts it quite a bit higher then mm2x and gengar. so unlike kyogre which would fear everything above 90 speed, ash gren can safely utilize water spout alongside steam eruption which is a significant power increase(until you hit ~70%). of course it has to sacrifice coverage for spout, but tbh, the insane power it brings is worth it:
252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja-Ash Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Registeel in Heavy Rain: 336-396 (92.3 - 108.7%) -- 50% chance to OHKO(cant even parting shot/spore if prankster.)

252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja-Ash Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Giratina in Heavy Rain: 216-255 (42.8 - 50.5%) -- 46.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja-Ash Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Giratina in Heavy Rain: 197-232 (39 - 46%) -- 23% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja-Ash Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Rayquaza-Mega in Heavy Rain: 245-288 (59.1 - 69.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja-Ash Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Gyarados-Mega in Heavy Rain: 204-241 (51.7 - 61.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja-Ash Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Gyarados-Mega in Heavy Rain: 186-220 (47.2 - 55.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja-Ash Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Solgaleo in Heavy Rain: 322-379 (67.5 - 79.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

like, its seriously scary hard to switch into as even resists have to tread carefully. and its speed tier is fast enough that even gengar and mm2 cant switch in. you can go modest to secure the 2hko's on giratina(good lord i didnt expect to say that) but you lose out on gengar and mm2x, which can be SUPER important so i don't recommend it.
 
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OM! I don't deny Ashninja can't check Pdon by switching in. However, outside of a safe switch after a slow pivot or KO switch-in, its switch-in prospects are dicey. Precipice crit OHKOs, which is inherently risky. Switching into V-Create is safe, but requires a good prediction to make, not something you can safely do right off the bat. Electric moves are a straight no. Sunsteel Strike will hurt, but probably be safe. Solar Blade is safe due to forced charge-up (probably best move to get in on since they can't switch out). U-Turn will hurt a lot. Not sure if 'Don still runs Icicle Crash.

Then there's them switching in a Water-resist, correctly guessing Specs based on the damage inflicted, and then switching back safely. If they have Red Orb 'Don, you can't safely use Water moves with specs without giving 'Don a free switch. 'Don likewise can't use Fire for the same reason, but being able to swap moves gives it a few more options if it wants to test its luck vs Steam Eruption unaccurracy. (A highly inadvisable play unless no better options exist.)

But yeah, the sets do check each other. But with Ashninja being so reliant on its weather with that particular set, its options are far more limited if Deso Land is on the table, especially with Specs.
 
Ashninja has like no bulk, which means Priority and faster threats can easily RK it, and considering that ate and MMY are everywhere. But yes it has a niche
On to my own Creative/Underrated Set:
Xerneas @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Poison Heal
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant / Jolly Nature
- Shift Gear
- Play Rough
- Thousand Arrows
- Spore / Lovely Kiss
Standard PH Xern... With PERFECT NEUTRAL COVERAGE! Does have the drawback of not having a better STAB in Moonblast, but Tarrows' coverage compensates that. Shift Gear is also more threatening to Offensive teams compared to QD.
 

Pikachuun

邪法使い_CC
is a Pre-Contributor
On to my own Creative/Underrated Set:
Xerneas @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Poison Heal
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant / Jolly Nature
- Shift Gear
- Play Rough
- Thousand Arrows
- Spore / Lovely Kiss
Standard PH Xern... With PERFECT NEUTRAL COVERAGE! Does have the drawback of not having a better STAB in Moonblast, but Tarrows' coverage compensates that. Shift Gear is also more threatening to Offensive teams compared to QD.
May I recommend Sacred Fire over arrows? While it has less PP (and fire types resist the coverage), the burns it can get are very nice, especially against an Imposter that tries to copy it. This also allows you to run a different 4th move if you wanted, like Leech Seed for extra memes against Imposter/Shed or Entrainment to dupe FF steels that think they can switch in/Prankster mons that can haze-stall otherwise (it becomes more difficult when they aren't Prank). Wisp is also an option for a 4th move if you want to keep arrows to accomplish a similar "cripple imposter" purpose, even though sleeping it is probably better in this context
An alternate option for a setup move is Coil, which I and some others ran in gen 6 to... some success, however I haven't really tested this in gen 7 to say whether it's good or not, probably not though
 
OM! I don't deny Ashninja can't check Pdon by switching in. However, outside of a safe switch after a slow pivot or KO switch-in, its switch-in prospects are dicey. Precipice crit OHKOs, which is inherently risky. Switching into V-Create is safe, but requires a good prediction to make, not something you can safely do right off the bat. Electric moves are a straight no. Sunsteel Strike will hurt, but probably be safe. Solar Blade is safe due to forced charge-up (probably best move to get in on since they can't switch out). U-Turn will hurt a lot. Not sure if 'Don still runs Icicle Crash.

Then there's them switching in a Water-resist, correctly guessing Specs based on the damage inflicted, and then switching back safely. If they have Red Orb 'Don, you can't safely use Water moves with specs without giving 'Don a free switch. 'Don likewise can't use Fire for the same reason, but being able to swap moves gives it a few more options if it wants to test its luck vs Steam Eruption unaccurracy. (A highly inadvisable play unless no better options exist.)

But yeah, the sets do check each other. But with Ashninja being so reliant on its weather with that particular set, its options are far more limited if Deso Land is on the table, especially with Specs.
Doesn't your signature link to a team where you use a Mega-Manectric which is also frail and deals even less damage than Ash-Greninja? Is it "situational" to use?

Many view Manectric as barely offensive enough to be considered for BH, but like Ash-Greninja, Speed is what sets it apart from other offensive threats within the same type, so there are clear counters, but nothing a good team built around it can't compensate for...
We could talk about how it can't handle Groudon in the Harsh Sunlight, and how any of Groudon's STAB Ground-attacks is basically a guaranteed 1HKO on Mega Manectric, but obviously you must have some reason to use it... I like Manectric, you and I were posting about it and using Galvanize and Electric Surge in the past, I only bring it up to make the point: Let's not forget the reason something might have use.

You are using a traditionally "outclassed" Pokémon, because it works for the specific purpose it serves on your team, (in spite of it needing a Z-Crystal to defeat Zygarde and Giratina, which is even more situational than Choice items) - which is why I am not criticizing you for using it as you know it's niche is specific to what you want.
That is the same reason why I am not critizing letterman4 for using Ash-Greninja, he didn't ask for a replacement, he asked what we think so he can improve his set. That's all I am helping out with, and quite honestly, since I don't know his entire team, I will assume it fits his teams needs, and won't ask him for his teammates, just as I can see I see your Mega-Manectric fits your team needs.

I'm sure if you posted Manectric-Mega on its own here, people would criticize it for only being able to check Zygarde or Giratina once per game, relying on a Z-Crystal to do so, and not using Life Orb or some other item, but the point is that this thread isn't a RMT. So who are we to assume the set has no merits? The user posted it from their experiences for their needs.

*I would understand criticism for someone saying it fits on most teams*, but we are dealing with a single user requesting a single feedback on Greninja for being the first Fastest Water type and second Strongest Special Water Sweeper behind Kyogre-Primal, (which he pointed out) so if he chose it for both it's typing and Speed stat, why would I suggest a slower Pokémon or a Pokémon with a different typing?
*Let's discontinue this topic.*
------ New Topic - Form Changes Strategies-----
What are some abilities and moves that can truly benefit from form changes so that way they can take advantage of a new typing, stat, ability, or move.

I know in Gen 6, using Simple with a Mega Evolution that had an -ate ability was used, such as Simple Shell Smash Boomburst Mega Gardevoir.

With Groudon using Red Orb, it's important to think of what abilities it's base form can take advantage of that are permanently useful, and which ones are temporarily useful. What do you guys think are its best options?
Illusion on base forms that become Primal and Mega forms remain permanently, Surges are temporary, etc.

What are some good strategies that abuse form changes?
 
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I never said "don't use that set" or "this set has no merit" or "use this other Pokemon instead". I simply said "it has trouble with Desolate Land, particularly Red Orb Groudon since its the only common user (only user?) of the ability and, while Ashninja can check it, Groudon checks it harder and pressures harder even when not on the field." And with how common Red Orb 'Don is, its a big enough problem that can't be ignored and demands mentioning since your original post on the set didn't bring it up. That's all.


Also I... really don't know what bringing up my RMT has anything to do with this or why you're calling me out on it. But since its kinda off-topic, I'll put my responses in a tab.

252 SpA Galvanize Manectric-Mega Boomburst vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Arceus: 241-285 (63.2 - 74.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Greninja-Ash Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Arceus: 237-279 (62.2 - 73.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

First, similar conditions: Manectric's best STAB does more damage than Greninja's best STAB and is not gated by HP. I didn't include items or weather here, I know. Greninja does more damage with Rain. Manectric does more damage with E.Terrain. Both can have them or not have them, its a moot point. Greninja has an advantage here in its not gated by ability, as non-Galvanize Manectric is pretty sub-optimal usually. Most I see usually use non-damage abilities like Dazzling, hence why I didn't include a damage ability in the calc as it didn't target your set specifically. (What damage ability does Greninja run besides possible rain? Adapt?) Yes, LO/Specs Greninja does more raw damage than my set, but this is just a more general comparison.

Short of it: Greninja is situationally stronger on STAB with favorable weather and HP and can run whatever ability. Manectric's STAB is more reliable and functions regardless of the field effects and may even be stronger, but is forced into Galvanize. (And honestly, it actually surprised me Manectric was stronger with no weather in play


Manectric also has negligible difference in bulk with its biggest rival, Xurkitree, whereas Greninja competes with Kyogre and Palkia, who are much bulkier. If Zekrom was a great special attacker, things would be a lot different. A lot. Different.


On situational check to Zygarde/Giratina, it outright OHKOs any Zygarde set that doesn't run Assault Vest, making it a soft counter to Zygarde so long as the move isn't used. It also follow-up 2HKOs Giratina after Ice Beam + Rocks, or shakily 2HKOs without rocks. The set is also advertised as a lure set. Its job is to bring these Pokemon in to remove them from play unexpectedly with the Z-move, all the while applying pressure and support for its offensive teammates.

Additionally, the presence of Encore means it can shut down all non-Magic Bounce variants of anything slower, these two, other walls, or even offensive Pokemon, if they use any non-threatening moves. Manectric uses its speed to check and, if they stay in while Encored, it can wear them down or switch/pivot to a check/counter. The original set also carried Spore, which is actually buried in this thread a few pages back if you wanna go look, which lets it shut down a ton of stuff even if it can't directly beat them.



Anyway, the point of the set in the RMT isn't to be a nuke or the offensive star of the team. It's a utility offensive Pokemon. It disrupts slower threats with Encore, it lures and KOs Zygarde and Giratina for its teammates, it has strong and consistent damage to pressure the opponent and keep the field clear for its offensive teammates, it absorbs paralysis from Glare/Nuzzle, and it dictates the flow of the battle and the opponent's slow pivot switches with its faster STAB pivot. Its speed + Galvanize lets it pull it off reliably. It benefits very well from Electric Terrain (which isn't on my team, but handy if the opponent tries to counter my Misty with it.) There aren't many Pokemon who can fit that sort of role. (Mewtwos most likely. Beyond that? I dunno.)

But, point is, comparing a utility attacker to an all-out attacker is of course going to give a major damage edge to the latter since the former is going to be busy doing other things than spamming nukes much of the time.


And if you really want me to, I can repost the set here. But, again, I already have an earlier version some pages back that's not that much different.


Edit: Was kinda in a rush and got my sets a bit mixed up. The RMT set is largely a lure/fast pivot. The modern version uses Encore over Steam Eruption since it can afford the slot now and the original, still viable version ran Spore/Encore in 3rd and 4th slots. Both of those sets fit "Utility Attacker" better.
 
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Rumors Um, aren’t you better with the following?

Manectric-Mega @ Life Orb
Ability: No Guard
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Zap Cannon
- Blizzard
- Focus Blast / Inferno / Encore
- Parting Shot / Encore/ Sing

Zap Cannon with the Life Orb Boost is comparable to Galvanize Boom Burst:
Base Power = 156 (or 234 with STAB) vs 168 (or 252 with STAB).
Effects: Zap Cannon will paralyze, Boomburst will hit through Substitute.

Blizzard 110 x 1.3 = 143 Base Power.

252 SpA Life Orb Manectric-Mega Blizzard vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Zygarde-Complete: 525-619 (82.5 - 97.3%) -- 25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Life Orb Manectric-Mega Blizzard vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Giratina: 224-265 (44.4 - 52.5%) -- 18.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Poison Heal

As we all know, Poison Heal won’t work unless Toxic Orb activates, which would usually mean it was used earlier in the game and took some hits. I included Stealth Rocks to negate it to show it won’t do so well. (Switch in to take a hit, and going second to take a second hit).

*Since the lowest damage roll is 88.8% (getting 44.4% twice because it goes 2nd after the switch).
That means if they switch Giratina in on Stealth Rocks to activate Toxic Orb, they will lose since Stealth Rocks takes their HP down to 87.5% from full HP.
If Poison Heal is already active, that means it was already in battle and likely not at full HP, so I assume not above 88.8% upon switch in...

In either case, when they take Stealth Rock on the switch their HP goes down to 87.5%, taking an additional the 44.4% on their switch to be at 43.1%, and then lose to the second turn taking 44.4% before Leftovers or Poison Heal can save them.

Focus Blast is there for quick hits on Kartana, Tyranitar-Mega, Dialga, and friends:

252 SpA Life Orb Manectric-Mega Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Tyranitar-Mega: 489-577 (121 - 142.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Life Orb Manectric-Mega Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Dialga: 278-328 (68.8 - 81.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Life Orb Manectric-Mega Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Kartana: 515-606 (159.9 - 188.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

I threw Inferno as an option, but I didn’t bother to include calcs in there as most Fire Weak types are either Flash Fire or Primordial Sea users such as Kartana, Aegislash, Scizor-Mega, etc.

Also, No Guard means Sing can be used over Spore to bypass both Substitute and Safety Goggles, while Parting Shot allows for a convenient pivot to soften the foe before sending in your next Pokémon, and counters Magic Bounce users easily on such a fast Pokémon.

————

As for Ash-Greninja, it has higher SpA, and can use Mega Launcher to Beat Manectric in damage, and gain 50% more power on both of its STABS, unlike Steam Eruption with Primordial Sea.

Greninja-Ash @ Choice Specs / Life Orb
Ability: Mega Launcher
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Origin Pulse
- Aura Sphere / Spore / Encore
- Dragon Pulse / Ice Beam
- Dark Pulse

Mega Launcher means-
- Aura Sphere = Focus Blast on No Guard in base power and never missing.
-Origin Pulse = base power of Primordial Sea Steam Eruption.
-Dark Pulse = Zap Cannon in base power.
-Dragon Pulse can hit Palkia almost as hard as Freeze Dry while still having 127.5 Base power on neutral hits.

*Ice Beam is for Zygarde and Rayquaza-Mega, while Encore and Spore is to troll.
~~~~~~~~~
As for your Arceus damage example:

252 SpA Choice Specs Mega Launcher Greninja-Ash Origin Pulse vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Arceus: 390-459 (102.3 - 120.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

For Zygarde-Core:

252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja-Ash Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Zygarde-Complete: 544-640 (85.5 - 100.6%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Choice Specs Mega Launcher Greninja-Ash Dragon Pulse vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Zygarde-Complete: 384-452 (60.3 - 71%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

For Giratina:

252 SpA Choice Specs Mega Launcher Greninja-Ash Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Giratina: 462-546 (91.6 - 108.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

For Aegislash:

252 SpA Choice Specs Mega Launcher Greninja-Ash Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Aegislash-Shield: 356-422 (109.8 - 130.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Mega-Rayquaza:

252 SpA Choice Specs Mega Launcher Greninja-Ash Dragon Pulse vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Rayquaza-Mega: 370-436 (89.3 - 105.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

Mewtwo-Mega-Y

252 SpA Choice Specs Mega Launcher Greninja-Ash Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Mewtwo-Mega-Y: 462-546 (111 - 131.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Scizor-Mega:

252 SpA Choice Specs Mega Launcher Greninja-Ash Origin Pulse vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Scizor-Mega: 360-424 (104.6 - 123.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

For Tyranitar-Mega:

252 SpA Choice Specs Mega Launcher Greninja-Ash Origin Pulse vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Tyranitar-Mega in Sand: 422-500 (104.4 - 123.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Lugia:

252 SpA Choice Specs Mega Launcher Greninja-Ash Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Lugia: 386-456 (92.7 - 109.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Choice Specs Mega Launcher Greninja-Ash Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Lugia: 386-456 (92.7 - 109.6%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO WITHOUT STEALTH ROCKi

Palkia:

252 SpA Choice Specs Mega Launcher Greninja-Ash Dragon Pulse vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Palkia: 328-386 (85.4 - 100.5%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

For Dialga

252 SpA Choice Specs Mega Launcher Greninja-Ash Aura Sphere vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Dialga: 350-412 (86.6 - 101.9%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Registeel:

252 SpA Choice Specs Mega Launcher Greninja-Ash Origin Pulse vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Registeel: 246-291 (67.5 - 79.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Any of the non-STAB moves can be subbed, as neutral Origin Pulse does more or less the same as Super Effective Aura Sphere and Dragon Pulse unless resisted such as against Dialga and Palkia, but the point is Ash-Greninja can be much more than anyone gives it credit for...

Oh, and the icing on the cake:

Groudon-Primal:

252 SpA Choice Specs Mega Launcher Greninja-Ash Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Groudon-Primal: 280-331 (69.3 - 81.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Just STAB alone.

Teammate’s Rain VS Zygarde:

252 SpA Choice Specs Mega Launcher Greninja-Ash Origin Pulse vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Zygarde-Complete in Rain: 559-658 (87.8 - 103.4%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Advantage over Kyogre, double STAB boosted ability, speed, Dark immunity to Psychic and Prankster, etc.

Your new weatherless, terrainless calculation comparison:

Galvanize Boomburst = 168 Base Power
VS
Mega Launcher Origin Pulse = 165 Base Power
#HaveIProvenMyPoint? (Let’s move on)
 
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No, its not strictly better with Life Orb No Guard. Why?

  • LO Zap Cannon is still weaker than itemless Galvanize Boomburst
  • 8 PP for Zap vs 16 for Boomburst, which is important in long matches
  • Vulnerable to Trick, Knock Off, etc, which reduces LO No Guard's damage by quite a bit. Z-Crystal can switch in on Trick and even gain momentum off of Choice Trick sets.
  • Zap Cannon is near useless when ability is suppressed. No-ability Boomburst isn't ideal either, but at least you know you don't have a 30-50% chance to miss if you gotta take the shot on a low HP target before it recovers
  • LO sucks away HP. Manectric gets antsy about surviving common hits at roughly 70% HP, which means you get three attacks off before things get dicey. Less with hazards. You only get about 5 attacks if you have to switch into hazards for each one. LO is better for sweepers who can easily end a match in less than 10 attacks, or ensure a victory. No Guard Manectric can't.
  • Losing LO is painful. Giratina, whose weak to Blizzard, WALLS your set if the LO is lost unless its a no-recovery PH variant.
  • Focus Blast is nice and all but Manectric really prefers Ground coverage for a third typing so it can hit Pdon on the switch. (Or KO with Groundium Z if you really want.) Ferrothorn isn't common enough for Focus Blast and Kartana cannot switch in on any of Manectric's moves anyway, or at all with less than ~70% HP unless it has boosted speed.
  • Sing + Zap Cannon + Inferno? That's probably too many competiting status effects for one team, let alone one set.
  • No Guard also ensures that any attacks from faster/Prankster/surviving Pokemon will hit. No fun for that PH Giratina to Lovely Kiss you and then heal off your damage and not even having that small chance for it to miss.
  • How the heck do you Imposterproof this thing anyway? Comatose Cresselia? Galvanize Manectric can at least safely sleep its Imposter if running the Spore + Safety set or pivot at the risk of ~25% damage from Ice Beam if it can't just manually switch into something (and with Imposter not having Z-move or high powered coverage, its pretty easy to Improof).
I mean, No Guard likely has its niche but... No Guard has a huge host of problems associated with it and there's a reason why the ability isn't seen much on any Pokemon, not just Manectric. If you wanna prove to me its a superior ability, go get some upper-mid to high ladder replays or tournament level replays showcasing it or put together a successful, descriptive RMT bringing it all together.


On Ash-Ninja, I just have a few questions...

  • Why did you suddenly switch from Primordial Sea to Mega Launcher for comparing stuff? That seems sudden and random.
  • Why are you making a Specs comparison to an itemless comparison?
  • Why are we comparing to Manectric anyway? Why did you even bring it up when it had nothing to do with the conversation on Ashninja?
  • Why are we comparing a lure / utility attacker to an all-out attacker in terms of raw damage?
  • Is the goal just trying to get bigger numbers? If so, why aren't we using Mewtwo-Y, Deo-A, or Mega-Ray?
  • Is Mega Launcher even a standard ability for Ashninja? I know I asked what damage abilities it ran, but, I was looking for what it commonly runs, NOT what it can run. AFAIK its common ability is Dazzling.
  • Have you used this set? Or the Primordial Sea one? If I remember right, this isn't a topic for theorymonning. Now if we were in the main BH topic, it'd be different and I'd be perfectly willing to theorymon to the ends of the earth. But, I don't wanna get mod-smacked for breaking rules.
  • I dunno if you've proven your point or not, since I dunno what it is. If its posting big, impressive looking calcs... not to be rude but... yay? As useful as they are, a bunch of calcs really don't showcase in-game effectiveness, reliability, or consistency. Otherwise the best team in the meta would be like 6x LO Accupressure Stored Power Mewtwo Ys with max stats and Psychic Terrain up and with all hazards up on the opponent's side who are suffering from Toxic, Leech Seed, Sandstorm damage, and hitting themselves in the confusion while the Mewtwos crit on every attack.
 
No, its not strictly better with Life Orb No Guard. Why?

  • LO Zap Cannon is still weaker than itemless Galvanize Boomburst
  • 8 PP for Zap vs 16 for Boomburst, which is important in long matches
  • Vulnerable to Trick, Knock Off, etc, which reduces LO No Guard's damage by quite a bit. Z-Crystal can switch in on Trick and even gain momentum off of Choice Trick sets.
  • Zap Cannon is near useless when ability is suppressed. No-ability Boomburst isn't ideal either, but at least you know you don't have a 30-50% chance to miss if you gotta take the shot on a low HP target before it recovers
  • LO sucks away HP. Manectric gets antsy about surviving common hits at roughly 70% HP, which means you get three attacks off before things get dicey. Less with hazards. You only get about 5 attacks if you have to switch into hazards for each one. LO is better for sweepers who can easily end a match in less than 10 attacks, or ensure a victory. No Guard Manectric can't.
  • Losing LO is painful. Giratina, whose weak to Blizzard, WALLS your set if the LO is lost unless its a no-recovery PH variant.
  • Focus Blast is nice and all but Manectric really prefers Ground coverage for a third typing so it can hit Pdon on the switch. (Or KO with Groundium Z if you really want.) Ferrothorn isn't common enough for Focus Blast and Kartana cannot switch in on any of Manectric's moves anyway, or at all with less than ~70% HP unless it has boosted speed.
  • Sing + Zap Cannon + Inferno? That's probably too many competiting status effects for one team, let alone one set.
  • No Guard also ensures that any attacks from faster/Prankster/surviving Pokemon will hit. No fun for that PH Giratina to Lovely Kiss you and then heal off your damage and not even having that small chance for it to miss.
  • How the heck do you Imposterproof this thing anyway? Comatose Cresselia? Galvanize Manectric can at least safely sleep its Imposter if running the Spore + Safety set or pivot at the risk of ~25% damage from Ice Beam if it can't just manually switch into something (and with Imposter not having Z-move or high powered coverage, its pretty easy to Improof).
I mean, No Guard likely has its niche but... No Guard has a huge host of problems associated with it and there's a reason why the ability isn't seen much on any Pokemon, not just Manectric. If you wanna prove to me its a superior ability, go get some upper-mid to high ladder replays or tournament level replays showcasing it or put together a successful, descriptive RMT bringing it all together.


On Ash-Ninja, I just have a few questions...
  • Why did you suddenly switch from Primordial Sea to Mega Launcher for comparing stuff? That seems sudden and random.
  • Why are you making a Specs comparison to an itemless comparison?
  • Why are we comparing to Manectric anyway? Why did you even bring it up when it had nothing to do with the conversation on Ashninja?
  • Why are we comparing a lure / utility attacker to an all-out attacker in terms of raw damage?
  • Is the goal just trying to get bigger numbers? If so, why aren't we using Mewtwo-Y, Deo-A, or Mega-Ray?
  • Is Mega Launcher even a standard ability for Ashninja? I know I asked what damage abilities it ran, but, I was looking for what it commonly runs, NOT what it can run. AFAIK its common ability is Dazzling.
  • Have you used this set? Or the Primordial Sea one? If I remember right, this isn't a topic for theorymonning. Now if we were in the main BH topic, it'd be different and I'd be perfectly willing to theorymon to the ends of the earth. But, I don't wanna get mod-smacked for breaking rules.
  • I dunno if you've proven your point or not, since I dunno what it is. If its posting big, impressive looking calcs... not to be rude but... yay? As useful as they are, a bunch of calcs really don't showcase in-game effectiveness, reliability, or consistency. Otherwise the best team in the meta would be like 6x LO Accupressure Stored Power Mewtwo Ys with max stats and Psychic Terrain up and with all hazards up on the opponent's side who are suffering from Toxic, Leech Seed, Sandstorm damage, and hitting themselves in the confusion while the Mewtwos crit on every attack.
In my last post, I brought up LO Manectric-Mega to help your team not to compare to Ash-Greninja, that’s why I separated them with a line and topic. Interesting you say Ferrothorn isn’t common enough, while you use one on your advertised team...

Your Giratina uses Misty Surge with a Terrain Extender which stops Sing, and since the Imposter won’t have Life Orb, it’s Blizzard won’t really threaten your own Giratina, and Focus Blast won’t deal much to Groudon-Primal which can counter Manectric.
Since you cannot use Choice Band with a Primal Groudon, I can still confirm that the lowest damage roll of Thousand Arrows followed by V-Create would be 89% combined which means Stealth Rocks takes it to 101.5% for a guaranteed 2HKO.

252+ Atk Groudon-Primal Thousand Arrows vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Eviolite Manectric-Mega: 254-300 (36 - 42.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock

252+ Atk Groudon-Primal V-create vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Eviolite Manectric-Mega in Harsh Sunshine: 378-445 (53.6 - 63.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Since it is forced to use Red Orb, Groudon could also pack Misty Terrain in its Base form to prevent sleep, since its Red Orb auto Primal reverts it anyways, and means it won’t have to rely on Giratina’s ability on its first switch in.

If you don’t want my set you can reject it, telling me to get replays is hard to do because I don’t know where I can find a list of replays for a specific set that anyone would use.

So unless I scroll through random posts which just happen to have a link, or if I login to Pokémon Showdown, click watch and randomly find a person using the exact set at the exact time I am online, which means it has to fit their team, or use it myself... but since it was for your team not mine I won’t build a team around it just to prove to you...
Unless you have a directory that showcases all sets replayed via link that I can scroll and find.

You chose to use an uncommon Pokémon, so how can I find more replays? Even if your set suddenly became the only MManectric set, where would I get replays? It’s too hard. I didn’t suggest a team, so I won’t create a RMT based on just 1 set that was built for yours...


As stated above, this Line below means let’s separate this topic and go back to Ash-Greninja.
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I switched from Primordial Sea to Mega Launcher for the following reason:

Primordial Sea was suggested by RNGIsFatal, so since I only expanded on the movepool, not the items or ability, (for the letterman4 post), I only focused on what could be added rather than completely revamping what RNGIsFatal had suggested. I thought his ability and item was good because it enabled Hurricane and Thunder which ironicallly provided the same coverage that letterman4 had wanted and could still check Primal Groudon (or revenge kill it), since it could change the weather.

I suggested Mega Launcher because you had made this rule to factor in Ash-Greninja’s supposedly strongest move at Water Spout without letting it factor in ability or move, while comparing it to Manecteic’s Galvanize Boomburst, and then went on to say that Ash-Greninja loses Base power over time due to taking damage. And then you said not to include Weather or Terrain.
So I included Mega Launcher to prove that not only can Ash-Greninja keep a higher Base power attack than Water Spout regardless of HP remaining, but it could do very high damage because, like Primordial Sea, I use the ability for boosting other moves that aid it in pushing it over the edge: STAB Dark Pulse, Dragon Pulse and Aura Sphere which justified using the entire movepool, rather than just wasting your ability slot on just 1 move... like Galvanize Boomburst.

I wasn’t making a Specs comparison to an item less comparison, I was showing the power of Ash-Greninja... you and others were doubting a set’s viability based on Primordial Sea, saying that it didn’t have enough defenses or deal enough to justify the use over Kyogre-Primal, and as I always stand by a point that is valid, I posted my set to show its advnatages over Kyogre-Primal, which I believed to be obvious as I mentioned in my final sentence the following:
Advantage over Kyogre, double STAB boosted ability, speed, Dark immunity to Psychic and Prankster, etc.
The only time I may have lead you to believe that my previous post was compared to Mega-Manectric was in Base power:

In the first sentence I said:

As for Ash-Greninja, it has higher SpA, and can use Mega Launcher to Beat Manectric in damage, and gain 50% more power on both of its STABS, unlike Steam Eruption with Primordial Sea.
I said it would deal more damage via Base power, and then I proceeded to break down each individual move in its moveset such as how Dark Pulse equaled Zap Cannon, and Aura Sphere was equal to Focus Blast.

I only said it had higher SpA to prove that if their base power is equal then the raw SpA stat is the tie breaker. Obviously adding Choice Specs to Manectric is the same as adding Electric Terrain and Primordial Sea and it would just negate the power boost, so showcasing the base power and then the raw stat advantage meant if you can justify Manectric why cannot Ash-Greninja be justified?

And that is precisely why I brought up Galvanize Boomburst vs Mega Launcher Origin Pulse, and that was only to prove you wrong about Ash-Greninja only having Water Spout as its most powerful move (since you again allowed Mega-Manectric to have an ability without granting Ash-Greninja one). This was about Base power, not side by side damage calculations.

Since you are not using a Specs set, and the only set I mentioned for MManectric was Life Orb it wouldn’t be a fair comparison, but since you said that Ash-Greninja wouldn’t be able to hit past Water Spout, you compared MManectric to Ash-Greninja and then I responded to prove you wrong. Remember when you even listed the damage calculations against Arceus?
I proved my Damage calcs because you brought up Damage first...
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To your other questions:

I did use both sets, and if RNGIsFatal can reply to letterman4 ’s post requesting help, why can’t I? I only added to His suggestion, so if you think theorymonning means posting things without testing them, does that mean you are criticizing RNGIsFatal for only adding a couple of points? Why would I get in trouble for posting a complete set with movepool, ability, Nature, and item while he only suggested the item and ability? I finished off his suggestions so a Primordial Sea set would be complete...

To my point above, is Primordial Sea a common Ash-Greninja ability? Does RNGIsFatal get in trouble for suggesting a “non-standard Ability”?
Seems silly you single me out when someone else did the same and didn’t post a full set, which is technically theorymonning because he didn’t test Primordial Sea or show replays, but suddenly I have to do it...

The goal was to get good damage, since Greninja has Dark typing, it can pull Dark Pulse to do more damage than Moongeist Beam due to Mega Launcher, and STAB, while being fast.

The reason to use it is because of STAB and stats, can Mega Mewtwo or Rayquaza outdamage it? It depends on the typing of the move used, so Ash greninja was brought up to show that it can be useful, I mentioned MManectric because you happen to use an uncommon set, so what is wrong with helping letterman4 keep the Pokémon he originally used, and just modify some of its moves?

If you can use an uncommon set why can’t he? That’s my real point. As long as the set fulfills the purpose for the team, that’s all that matters, just like your MManectric doesn’t fit on most teams, but it fills a niche on yours.
 
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Uselesscrab

tide slack, summer low, sunlight catch the golden narrows
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Okay, this discussion should have ended long ago, but I'm officially putting an end to it now. I'd be lying if I said I had the patience to read essay-length posts about borderline-unviable Pokemon with like 25 Mega Launcher Ash-Greninja calcs, but all that aside, the general tone of this discussion has become far too confrontational.

Talking about the sets posted here is perfectly welcome, but when those conversations begin to devolve into attacks on fellow users, they far exceed the limits I've set for this particular thread. I think it's pretty clear that you guys have devolved from helping letterman4 into staging your own personal battle over each other's favorite fast, niche attackers. You have all been participating here long enough that I know you know this is not what the thread is for. Get back to posting well-reasoned, concise justifications for using sets. With USM's release, I think it's best to move on to a new era of creative movesets.
 
And with that discussion over, I'd like to talk about this set I've been running in Mix and Mega (I'll post some BH sets eventually.)

Genesect @ Altarianite
Ability: Download
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Shift Gear
- Extreme Speed
- Explosion
- Tri Attack

A lot of people think Genesect is unviable and bad. However, this set takes advantage of the influx of fast frail attackers such as Naganadel and Blacephalon, while also luring in Pokemon such as Magearna and Primal Groudon to die to a powerful Explosion. Granted, Genesect isn't what it once was but it has been getting me success against some key players. Good partners to this set are Pokemon that benefit from the removal or weakening of the aforementioned lured threats, such as Tapu Koko, Xerneas and other Pokemon like them (if needed, I'll post more examples.) Genesect losing Techno Blast really hurt it, but it's still a decent threat with the right support and I would definitely still prepare for it. While Explosion is a one for one trade, this trade can be incredibly beneficial for some teams and in addition, Shift Gear allows it to consistently boost its offensive power. Tri Attack is probably better replaced but I can't care enough to replace it, also it's pretty damn funny when you freeze the opponent's Magearna even if you just kill it with Explosion afterwards.