D/P Supporting Groudon

[Train Man]

http://www.smogon.com/dp/pokemon/groudon

I've been using this set for a few months now and didn't see any mention of either Stealth Rock or Toxic in the analysis, so I made this set.

[SET]
name: Supporting Groudon
move 1: Toxic / Roar
move 2: Stealth Rock / Thunder Wave
move 3: Earthquake
move 4: Dragon Claw
item: Leftovers
nature: Adamant
evs: 252 HP / 32 Def / 60 SpD / 8 Spe / 156 Atk

[Set Comments]
<p> Groudon, while commonly seen as a dominating physical sweeper can also play the part of support, hindering the walls that usually stop it. With access to fantastic utility moves such as Stealth Rock and Toxic, sturdy defenses and massive Hit Points, Groudon can survive a wide variety of hits while setting up. </p>

<p> The premise of this set is to lure in walls like Lugia and Cresselia and then proceed to break them with Toxic. The pair, arguably Groudon's greatest counters are almost immediately shut down by Toxic. Lugia and Cresselia can only recover off the staving effects of Toxic so many times before falling. Any walls that are immune to Toxic, steel-types such as Dialga, Forretress and Skarmory all take a hefty beating out of Fire Punch or Earthquake. Roar is an option to phaze and scout an opponent's team, again, constantly whittling down the opposition if Stealth Rock is up. </p>

<p> Stealth Rock is an all-purpose utility move, that also greatly damages Lugia. In tandem with Toxic, this residual damage can add up very quickly, on almost any pokemon. The pair will leave your opponent, trapped between a rock and a very hard place. If they stay in, they will be whittled slowly down by Toxic and if they switch out, Stealth Rock will batter them next as they come in. Thunder Wave is an option, if you dislike Stealth Rock or have another pokemon to set up such hazards. Together with Toxic, Groudon can utilize the age old strategy of double-status. First poisoning a defensive wall like Lugia, then paralyzing an incoming sweeping threat such as Mewtwo or Kyogre. When paralyzed, such threats are of little danger, disabling their ability to switch in again as Groudon can shoot off two Earthquakes before either make a move. </p>

<p> Dragon/Ground gives phenomenal type coverage in Ubers hitting almost everything for at least neutral. Fire Punch may be used over Dragon Claw if your team is threatened by Spikes coming from the likes of Forretress or Skarmory. However, this will leave Groudon very vulnerable to Rayquaza who is immune to Earthquake, nullifies the sun's boost on fire attacks and resists the weakened the Fire Punch. </p>

<p> The EVs invested in Special Defense, in conjunction with maximum Hit Points are tailored to the current Metagame. They ensure that Lugia's Ice Beam is a mere 4HKO giving you ample time to set up Stealth Rock and Toxic. Groudon is also, only dealt a 3HKO by Latias' Dragon Pulse after factoring Soul Dew and Leftovers. In the mean time, you will be able to wear away at it's durability by poisoning it or just by using Dragon Claw. The EVs placed in Defense will guarantee your survival against an Outrage from a Jolly Rayquaza with one Dragon Dance under its belt. </p>

<p> This set still has trouble dealing with Giratina, as it can simply remove it's Toxic status by resting, simultaneously threatening with Will-o-Wisp. Supporting Groudon, as the name implies is not meant to sweep, even after the opponent's walls the have been brought down. It is best used alongside Physical sweepers like Bulk Up Dialga or Dragon Dancing Rayquaza, as the pair can beat Giratina one on one. </p>

 

[kd24]

I still think Thunder Wave can deserve a mention for double status...

Simiarly, the EVs placed in Defence allow you to survive a Jolly Life Orb Outrage from a once, Dragon Danced Rayquaza

You Didn't spell Similarly right. Change Defence to Defense. I think you can word that last part to read:

The EVS placed in Defense Guarentee you to survive an Outrage from a Jolly Rayquaza with 1 Dragon Dance under it's belt.

 

[Train Man]

Fix'd.

Thunder Wave is already mentioned in other options off the main site. While Thunder Wave is a fantastic move slowing down the likes of both Latias and Lugia, there simply isn't enough room on this set. The only feasible choice is putting it over Stealth Rock, which is a pretty integral move to prevent your opponent from switching freely.

I guess it'd be usable if, you're running another Stealth Rocker on your team. If enough people agree with the change, then i'll add it to the set.

 

[kd24]

Eh, you still need to change Defence to Defense lol. Other then that it looks good.

 

[moi]

I've been running a similar set to you, and in all the fun battles we've had on the ladder, I run Thunder Wave over Toxic, and place it as a lead. It's bulky enough to even take special Hits and can completly destroy sweepers like Kyogre that stay in. It's slow enough to get Sun up against Kyogre as well. It almost always guarantees Stealth Rock, and to cripple one pokemon, so in my opinion it can be used over Toxic.

Just my opinions.

 

[Train Man]

Fix'd again, lol.

Regarding Thunder Wave, what exactly would you be using it on? Everything hit on the switch is hurt more by your other moves imo.

 

[moi]

Well, particularly, my team is slow. I have trouble against things like Palkia, Kyogre, and Mewtwo, so a Thunder Wave makes them easy picking for my team

 

[Train Man]

Well, since Groudon can't switch on any of these, let's assume that these threats are switching into Groudon. Earthquake is a 2HKO on Mewtwo, Kyogre (unless it maxes out HP and Def with a boosting nature) and Palkia. Toxic screws over TauntTwo w/ Recover as well.

Now, i'd just switch to generic special wall like Blissey or Latias and either finish them off/stall them out or a force a switch. Now, the next time any of these come in I can easily KO them with a second Earthquake barring wish support.

Firstly, it's unlikely that any of these would ever switch in on something like a Groudon fearing a Choice Band Earthquake. Secondly, I feel that Thunder Wave shouldn't make it's way on to this set as, while it does support a Team by slowing down enemy sweepers, this set is more for destroying enemy walls.

Perhaps Thunder Wave should just get a larger mention in the Other Options section?

 

[moi]

The thing with that point is, all of those Pokemon can 1HKO it after (except Mewtwo needs Life Orb). This is why I find it critical to stop them. And you also have to consider that switching to a special wall may not be the best thing, seeing as two of them can 2HKO with SR and those same two can Set Up as well. Palkia has the means to have Waterfall as well.

I just find that it's more important then other options

 

[Ryo]

I've tried Thunderwave on this Groudon also and its effective enough to be an option by Toxic. Things like ScarfOgre and Latias seem to switch into Groudon frequently and Thunderwave cripples them both. This also happened to be my Tyranitar counter so I used 24 Spe Evs instead to outrun Adamant CBtar.

 

[Train Man]

Added Thunder Wave as an option over Stealth Rock. I find that Tyranitars in Ubers, don't bother running any speed preferring to boost their Special Defense to better counter Latias. IMO, 8 EVs in Speed is enough to beat other Base 90s who don't invest a single point.

 

[Forsety]

I think the line about Tangrowth is abit unecessary. To begin with you imply in the same line Tangrowth would probably be using its Chlorophyll ability. If it is, then you'd be relying on prediction abit too much to class it as 'shutting down' Tangrowth. I have a feeling if they do have a Tangrowth it'd just come in on your SR. Given Groudon's ability sets up the guy, it'll be outspeeding and sleeping or just Grass Knotting you and if you switch your next switch in will feel the effects of a status.

For that reason I'd add Roar as a possible option somewhere or mention it in comments. Phazing would be both beneficial to his aims here and let you scout out any possible Groudon counters they may possess.

 

[Phuquoph]

Agreeing that Thunder Wave needs more of a mention. I've found it to be more useful than Toxic. Kyogre/Lati@s can still cause plenty of damage when they're poisoned, but paralyzing them makes them a much smaller threat. It also removes the speed advantage of any Chlorophyll Pokemon you might run into. Even Lugia doesn't like being paralyzed.

I don't think Fire Punch should be a primary option. I've been using this to cover DD Rayquaza, which it does quite well, so I think the secondary attack needs to be Dragon Claw or Stone Edge. They both provide much better coverage compared to Fire Punch. Fire Punch can still be mentioned in set comments though. Roar can also be mentioned in set comments, I ran Roar/Stealth Rock/Earthquake/Dragon Claw for awhile and it was reasonably effective.

 

[Train Man]

Added another sentence on Thunder Wave, mentioned Roar over Toxic and removed Fire Punch off the main set but still gave mention in Dragon Claw's paragraph.

 

[umbarsc]

You need the </p> tags at the end of paragraphs.

And if I were using this Groudon, I would definitely make it more defensive. The Atk EVs seem completely arbitrary, as you didn't explain what they are useful for. Did you just randomly decide "156 is as good as any number", or did you use the defensive benchmarks and place the leftovers in Atk? I'd rather use an offensive benchmark and a SpD benchmark, and place the rest in defense for more survivability against Rayquaza and such, not the other way around.

 

[Earthworm]

Although it probably isn't worth noting, having Stealth Rock and Fire Punch on the same moveset allows you to completely ruin Forretress + Shedinja strategies (at least temporarily but generally for the whole match) which can really help especially when the majority of your team can't hit Shedinja, which I find is true for most teams.

I have been using Fire Punch + Stone Edge Groudon and since everyone expects me to have Earthquake I don't get many Dialgas coming in, I am going to switch to Fire Punch + Dragon Claw now though

<p> Dragon/Ground gives phenominal type coverage in Ubers hitting almost everything for at least neutral.

Firstly phenominal should be phenomenal. Secondly Dragon/Fire has better coverage neutrality wise which is the main point of this post and although it probably isn't worth additional slash-itis I feel it deserves a mention in the set comments! I might be wrong though, it is just my personal preference.

 

[Train Man]

The Atk EVs help Groudon counter threats like BU Dialga while 2HKOing some bulkier pokemon like Mewtwo and Kyogre. This isn't the same as a Walling Groudon (A RestTalk set is already mentioned in the analysis), as is thus almost equal parts offense and defence.

Dragon/Fire leaves you without any real hitting power though. STAB EQ hits for 150 BP against targets like Mewtwo, Kyogre and Blissey. Your next best bet is Fire Punch which hits for 112.5 BP (With sun). The difference in power will roughly give you 3HKOs when EQ will give you 2HKOs. This'll also allow Kyogre to literally switch in on any attack (22%-26%) on 0/0 Kyogre..

Personally I wouldn't support that as you could actually be walled by Blissey or Kyogre.

 

[umbarsc]

That's why I think you should just hit a key benchmark (2HKOing Rest-Talk Kyogre or something), then dump the rest in Def. You only need to a certain amount of Atk before it becomes unnecessary. Putting them into Def will better allow Groudon to take on Rayquaza, Metagross, etc., so you don't have to rely on being at 100% health to switch in.

 

[Train Man]

I'm finding 156 Atk already, a fairly significant benchmark for Groudon. And while it is defensive, as i've mentioned several times the purpose of this set is for Groudon to be equal parts offence and defence. If anything, i'd prefer more offences to defense at the moment, but those benchmarks are a little to promising for me.

Earthquake from 412 Atk (156 EVs, Adamant) does 41%-48% to RestTalk/Boosting Tank Kyogre (240 HP/ 244 Def, Modest), arguably the most common sets at the moment.

Earthquake from 412 Atk (156 EVs, Adamant) does 46%-54% to Bulk Up Dialga after a single Bulk Up (252 Hp, Careful). Not exactly a 2HKO, but you'll with your high defence you'll force it to rest where you easily spam Earthquakes till it dies.

Earthquake from 412 Atk (156 EVs, Adamant) does 57%-67% to (Uber) Blissey (252 Def, Calm). An easy 2HKO, however this can be stalled for a few turns by Softboiled, detrimental if said Blissey Toxics' you on the switch.

Dragon Claw from 412 Atk (156 EVs, Adamant) does 69%-79% to Latias (112 HP, Timid). With Stealth Rock and without Leftovers this is actually doing a lot more than it looks. Also, Toxic'ing or Thunder Waving on the switch can really cripple it for any later switch-ins.

It's for these reasons, that I don't really want to tamper with the EV Spread as the Attack is only cut enough as is. I find the defenses durable enough especially when played with Wish Support.

 

[Train Man]

I want to add this into the SCMS, if nobody else has any comments/corrections to make. I'll probably leave it here for 12 or hours before I go ahead.

Thanks for everybody that helped me out in my first Peer Edit.

 

[Toothache]

Lugia and Cresselia can only recover off the staving effects of Toxic, so many times before falling.

Remove the comma, and that sentence is fine.

 

[Train Man]

Fix'd the comma, Toothache.

It's in the SCMS now. Should I lock this thread now, or just keep it open and let if fall from the first page?

 

[Phuquoph]

It stays open in case someone has more to add in the future.

 

[sbc]

[Set Comments]
<p> Groudon, while commonly seen as a dominating physical sweeper, can also play the part of support, hindering the walls that usually stop it. With access to fantastic utility moves such as Stealth Rock and Toxic, sturdy defenses and massive Hit Points, Groudon can survive a wide variety of hits while setting up. </p>

<p> The premise of this set is to lure in walls like Lugia and Cresselia, and (commas are not connectives) then proceed to break them with Toxic. The pair, arguably Groudon's greatest counters are almost immediately shut down by Toxic. Lugia and Cresselia can only recover off the staving effects of Toxic so many times before falling. Any walls that are immune to Toxic, steel-types such as Dialga, Forretress and Skarmory all take a hefty beating from Fire Punch or Earthquake. Roar is an option to phaze and scout an opponent's team, again, constantly whittling down the opposition if Stealth Rock is up. </p>

<p> Stealth Rock is an all-purpose utility move, that also greatly damages Lugia. In tandem with Toxic, this residual damage can add up very quickly, on almost any pokemon. The pair will leave your opponent, trapped between a rock and a very hard place. If they stay in, they will be whittled slowly down by Toxic and if they switch out, Stealth Rock will batter them next as they come in. Thunder Wave is an option, if you dislike Stealth Rock or have another pokemon to set up such hazards. Together with Toxic, Groudon can utilize the age old strategy of double-status. First poisoning a defensive wall like Lugia, then paralyzing an incoming sweeping threat such as Mewtwo or Kyogre. When paralyzed, such threats are of little danger, disabling their ability to switch in again as Groudon can shoot off two Earthquakes before either make a move. </p>

<p> Dragon/Ground gives phenomenal type coverage in Ubers hitting almost everything for at least neutral. Fire Punch may be used over Dragon Claw if your team is threatened by Spikes coming from the likes of Forretress or Skarmory. However, this will leave Groudon very vulnerable to Rayquaza who is immune to Earthquake, nullifies the sun's boost on fire attacks and resists the weakened the Fire Punch. </p>

<p> The EVs invested in Special Defense, in conjunction with maximum Hit Points are tailored to the current Metagame. They ensure that Lugia's Ice Beam is a mere 4HKO giving you ample time to set up Stealth Rock and Toxic. Groudon is also, only dealt a 3HKO by Latias' Dragon Pulse after factoring Soul Dew and Leftovers. In the mean time, you will be able to wear away at it's durability by poisoning it or just by using Dragon Claw. The EVs placed in Defense will guarantee your survival against an Outrage from a Jolly Rayquaza with one Dragon Dance under its belt. </p>

<p> This set still has trouble dealing with Giratina, as it can simply remove it's Toxic status by resting, simultaneously threatening with Will-o-Wisp. Supporting Groudon, as the name implies, is not meant to sweep, even after the opponent's walls the have been brought down. It is best used alongside Physical sweepers like Bulk Up Dialga or Dragon Dancing Rayquaza, as the pair can beat Giratina one on one. </p>

A bit of questionable wording, you seem to sensationalising some of the moves. Otherwise I like the set

 

[Train Man]

Fix'd, I guess. I re-entered it into the SCMS but the original page was already uploaded on to the main site.