Defog

[Chieliee]

(approved by blarajan)

As most of you probably know, Defog has gained a massive buff this generation, as it removes entry hazards on both sides of the field, instead of just the ones you set. This means big business in every tier, including LC.

Notable differences between Rapid Spin and Defog:

• Defog has a much wider distribution, although most of them are weak to Stealth Rock
• Defog gets rid of all hazards on the field, including the ones you set
• Defog CAN NOT BE SPINBLOCKED
• Defog also lowers the opponent's evasion. This isn't big but it can be taken advantage of
• Defog cannot be blocked by Magic Bounce (the only difference is the user will get the evasion drop)
• Defog can be taunted

The following LC Pokémon get access to Defog (excluding gen 6 mons):

Pidgey, Spearow, Zubat, Hoothoot, Seedot, Taillow, Wingull, Piplup, Starly, Drifloon, Stunky, Finneon, Archen, Ducklett, Vullaby

Example sets

Vullaby (F) @ Eviolite
Ability: Big Pecks
Level: 5
EVs: 116 HP / 236 SDef / 76 Def / 76 SAtk
IVs: 30 Atk / 30 SAtk
- Air Slash
- Roost
- Taunt
- Defog

Bulky Vullaby now has another move it really wants to use. It has the bulk to live nearly any hit and is thus able to get off a Defog nearly all the time.

Murkrow @ Eviolite
Ability: Insomnia
Level: 5
EVs: 36 HP / 236 Atk / 20 Def / 20 SpD / 188 Spe
Naive Nature
- Brave Bird
- Roost
- Sucker Punch
- Defog

Although Defog is illegal with Prankster on Murkrow, it's still the speediest and best offensive user of the move. I took the standard SubRoost set, replaced Sub with Defog and Prankster with Insomnia. Honestly there are tons of more options, idk which is the best

Gligar @ Eviolite
Ability: Hyper Cutter
Level: 5
EVs: 156 HP / 236 Def / 76 SDef
Impish Nature
- Roost
- Stealth Rock/Earthquake/Toxic
- Defog
- Aerial Ace/Earthquake/U-Turn

Defensive Gligar is now just too fucking good. no physical attacker breaks through this thing, which means it can switch in and perform Defog very easily. On top of that, it can immediately set up Stealth Rock afterwards, making it a great hazard control mon.

 

[ryan]

Chieliee

• Defog cannot be blocked by Magic Guard (the only difference is the user will get the evasion drop)

Magic Bounce*

I think Defog will be pretty cool in LC. It's could make for a nice filler move on Murkrow, giving you a nearly guaranteed opportunity to get rid of hazards before it dies. Bulky Archen sets and Vullaby can both be cool users of it as well, as their combination of bulk and reliable recovery allows them to blow away hazards multiple times throughout a match without being worn down too much. Interesting that Stunky gets the move; it could see a bit of a rise in usage because of it, but I have my doubts.

I think Defog can have a pretty cool effect on the metagame. I doubt we're dealing with anything ground-breaking, simply because the distribution of the move is much lower in LC than it is in standard play, but with more ways to get rid of hazards (and the potential loss of the Pomeg glitch, though that remains to be seen), we might see a slight drop in the usage of Staryu. Drilbur might drop a bit as well, but because Rapid Spin isn't the only reason why we see it used, I doubt it will be drastic. The other potential really neat effect this change could have on the metagame is a lesser focus on hazards in XY LC. As it stands, LC is the only tier where I can feel comfortable without using Stealth Rock on almost every single team, and with even more ways to get rid of it, this might be even more so the case.

 

[Delver]

I think defog will have a much smaller effect on the meta of LC than it will in the older tiers. Like. Spikes (especially the Toxic variety) are worth less for the same turn investment than they are in older teirs. 25% is still 25% but its often really hard to get up all 3 layers unless you're opponent is bad or you make some ungodly predictions, and with only 1 or 2 layers the extra damage amounts to ~1-2 damage (which again is still damage but its harder to justify the turn usage). While that is more of my personal belief on the use of spikes, the fact of the matter is; stealth rocks is one the only hazard that sees extensive use in LC and the majority of the setters are things that dont really mind setting it up again, that is to say LC lacks a lot of suicide roles - and like treecko said, even that is eschewed for more power. The addition of sticky web (whose user is actually mediocre-viable currently) might make defogging more useful, but considering that an addition of your own sticky web essentially nullifies theirs, spinning could arguably be the superior removal.

Really the only advantage defog has over spinning is the inability to be blocked, which is a large one and is enough to justify its use in my opinion, but I doubt hazards will become a big enough that you need to GUARANTEE your side is free from them, even at the cost of your own.

 

[Goddess Briyella]

I would like to express, after experiencing and immersing myself into the current metagame, how hazardless Little Cup really has become due to the sheer utility of this move, particularly because Gligar gets it. Just this one Pokemon is enough to maintain hazard control better than everything else in the entire tier, while also being able to fulfill other roles, including but not limited to a bulky offensive juggernaut, a part of a VoltTurn core, and an overall well-rounded pivot with commendable stats. Just look at how well Gligar can deploy Defog to help its team:

• Hits 19 Speed
• Immune to Spikes
• Immune to Toxic Spikes
• Immune to Sticky Web
• Flying-type that isn't weak to Stealth Rock
• Has fantastic physical bulk
  
• Access to U-turn
• Access to Stealth Rock

I don't mean to make this thread about Gligar, but honestly, when you look at the amount of positives Gligar has that allow it to actively utilize Defog to keep the game free of hazards easily and effectively, there is honestly no need to put Defog on anything else. The only other thing that might come to mind is Vullaby, but Gligar is vastly superior for this role. Murkrow gets Defog but since it's a move from DPP, it's incompatible with Prankster. And even if every single hazard possible has been laid down by the opponent, Gligar can come in without suffering any effects other than neutral Stealth Rock damage, and effortlessly remove everything in one turn. It's so good!

I just wanted to express this, since I looked and nobody had addressed it yet. And if I didn't do it, someone was bound to, since anyone who plays the tier right now has already accepted this as objective fact, and the recent ban of Sneasel has only heightened Gligar's usefulness even more.

Long live Defog Gligar!

 

[chimp]

I really like defog. For one, it has a great distribution, (Staryu or Drilbur just can't fit on to every team) and two, it allows Pokemon like Larvesta to be more viable again.

But the one thing that makes defog awesome is how it removes Sticky Web. Sticky web is super annoying to have on your side, and since most defog users are flying type, they can ignore the speed drop. Plus flying types get good match-ups against the sticky web setters. (Who are all bug!)

 

[Raseri]

Defog is having a much larger impact on the tier than I originally imagined it would. There are a lot of really good Pokemon that can use it, and it often makes me feel wary about setting up Stealth Rock at all. Gligar is clearly the #1 user of the move. For every reason Briyella mentioned, Defog Gligar is amazing. No other user comes close to Gligar when it comes to taking advantage of the move.

The biggest downside to Defog that I've been seeing over the past few days is Defiant Pawniard. If youre ballsy enough to switch Pawniard into Gligar (or any other user) as it Defogs, you immediately get +2 attack. This has made me hesitant to use Defog on Berry Juice Gligar before I can remove Pawniard, because I really don't want to give it a boost to its already high attack. Eviolite sets have little to fear, as they can survive the attack quite easily, but other sets take a lot of damage from Pawny. Beyond this, nearly every other Defog user flat-out loses to Pawniard, so gligar is the exception that can beat it.

Stunky has the potential to be an interesting user, if Ghost-types become more prominent than they are now. Because trapping Missy is great, and Stunky is definitely the best at that. But being a Dark-type without Knock Off really sucks now. But Defog on a non-SR weak Pokemon is always amazing. :)


The only other user I've seen is Defog Zubat, which is actually quite interesting due to its unique typing. It has a more reliable Flying-type attack than Gligar, not needing to lose its item to be useful. Cross Poison for Fairy-types, and U-turn to get out of trouble. It's abilitys are also great, both inner focus and infiltrator are great against certain teams. Zubats stats suck, but its ability to switch into Fighting-types rivals Gligar, so it definitely has use on a few teams. An interesting Pokemon for the more gimmicky players out there.

 

[liz7]

Since Pokebank isn't out yet, Golbat is the best possible defog user at the moment:

Golbat @ Eviolite
Ability: Infiltrator
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 Atk
Impish Nature
- Defog
- Roost
- Hypnosis
- U-turn

 

[ryan]

Since Pokebank isn't out yet, Golbat is the best possible defog user at the moment:

Golbat @ Eviolite
Ability: Infiltrator
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 Atk
Impish Nature
- Defog
- Roost
- Hypnosis
- U-turn

Golbat is not a Little Cup Pokemon, and while Zubat is an ok user of the move, that set is not very viable.

On topic, Defog has been really interesting to me. On one hand, people still want to use Stealth Rock to help keep things like Yanma, Murkrow, and Larvesta really well checked, but on the other hand, with most teams that run these Pokemon also carrying a Gligar, it usually seems like a waste to me. The teams that are bothered by Stealth Rock will have few problems disposing of it, while the teams that don't mind it, well, don't mind it lol.

I've actually been using Rapid Spin far more than Defog because Staryu is still such an amazing Pokemon. My favorite team with Staryu is pretty weak to Misdreavus, so it forces the opponent to either take heavy damage while switching it in to spinblock or to let me spin. In this way, I think Rapid Spin can actually be much more valuable to certain teams (obviously ones that rely on hazards are included in that).

 

[Ray Jay]

I'd argue Vullaby is pretty much the premier Defog user in this tier right now, with its only competition arising from maybe Gligar. Vullaby has an incredible set of resistances and its only real weakness is it can be set up bait if it is using Defog and not U-turn and it is Stealth Rock. Gligar is really heavily accounted for in teambuilding, and while it has an easy enough time getting off a Defog, it has a lot of other moves that I think are a lot better on a defensive Gligar set (notably Taunt + Toxic or SR + U-turn are my personal favorites, either of those alongside Roost + Earthquake). Vullaby is great because it forces out Grass-types, meaning that a bulky Water-type such as Chinchou, Staryu, Slowpoke, or Frillish gets to bully the other team's physically-based core and Vullaby can simply come in to take hits when needed and Defog and Knock Off spam ad infinitum. I think a lot of teams using Gligar for Defog would even be improved by instead switching to Vullaby, as it can better utilize Knock Off through STAB and is easier to keep alive due to not having that 4x weakness and 2x weakness to Water; Vullaby's typing is simply more conducive to repeated switch ins against most things that aren't Fighting-types.

 

[skies]

Nobody has even mentioned the fact that Defog Prankster Murkrow is really good, smh. It is working on Showdown!, and it seems a bit odd, but if it is legit, than Murkrow makes a nice user of this, being able to get it off before Taunt, while only being weak to one of the four hazards!

 

[Ray Jay]

Chesnaught Defog is illegal with Prankster Murkrow, as Defog is a Gen IV Tm / Hm and Prankster is a Gen V ability from the Dream World.

 

[skies]

Ray Jay, ahh, I figured it would be too cool to be true. But wait, can't you just send over a Male Defog Murkrow, then breed it with a Female Prankster Murkrow, then send that offspring to X/Y? Or did I miss a step?

 

[Ray Jay]

Chesnaught In order to pass down a TM / HM move, the move must be a TM / HM in that specific generation; Defog is not a TM or HM in Gen V and therefore wont be passed down to the murkrow offspring

 

[Goddess Briyella]

Stunky @ Eviolite
Ability: Aftermath
Level: 5
EVs: 92 Atk / 4 Spd / 108 SAtk / 108 SDef / 60 Def / 92 HP
Docile Nature
- Pursuit
- Sucker Punch
- Defog
- Sludge Bomb

I've considered trying out Defog on Stunky, as even though it's a Generation IV-exclusive move, it doesn't conflict with anything Stunky would need from the newer generations. Stunky is another one of those mons like Pawniard and Croagunk who have a type that's weak to Fairy but a secondary one that neutralizes the weakness and also provides an offensive advantage against Fairy-types. Having a Pokemon that can use Defog and STAB Dark-type moves without being weak to Fairy, Fighting, or Bug is a pretty unique quality in LC; it sucks that Stunky doesn't get Knock Off or Poison Jab, however. STAB Sludge Bomb gets a pretty hard hit on Tangela as well as Fairy-types, and it should be noted that this is the one Poison-type that Swirlix cannot check at all with Psychic. The only thing Stunky has to worry about in the entire game is Earthquake (and Drill Run but it's way less common). Steel no longer resists Dark so the need to run Fire Blast when there's STAB Sludge Bomb for Tangela/Fairy types is significantly lessened now. Aftermath makes it easier for teammates to avenge Stunky's death, but I guess the only move Stunky has to really worry about doesn't make contact, so Stench could provide hilarious Sucker Punch flinches if you're an adventurous asshole.

 

[Dododoggy]

With Pawniard on almost every team defogging is risky. When coming in with something like "Vullaby" the opponent can switch Pawniard into defog, get the +2 boost the use the Dark + Steel combo to wipe out an entire team. Not to mention that Pawniard also gets Sucker Punch and has decent speed. Other than that I think its great since Hazards can really wear down a team with the constant switching in LC.