Ubers Dialga

[Muk]

Overview
########

Dialga has consistently been a cornerstone of Ubers play since its introduction. It is an extremely reliable Stealth Rock user on account of its solid defenses and an incredible type combination that affords it nine resistances and an immunity to Poison-type moves. Dialga's Steel / Dragon typing is just as spectacular offensively, especially when its base 150 Special Attack and wide movepool are taken into account. These traits establish Dialga as one of the most versatile Pokemon in the metagame and make it notoriously difficult to switch into. Aside from its average Speed, lack of reliable recovery, and weakness to common Ground-type moves, Dialga does not really have any shortcomings at all; it has the stats, movepool, and typing to find a way around every single one of its checks and counters. Unfortunately, its common attacking moves have had their Base Power reduced, and the Steel-type has lost some defensive potency, but these are not major issues. Ultimately, Dialga is a Pokemon that can pull its weight on practically any team and is very easy to find room for.


Defensive
########
name: Defensive
move 1: Stealth Rock
move 2: Toxic
move 3: Draco Meteor
move 4: Fire Blast / Roar
ability: Pressure
item: Leftovers
evs: 248 HP / 8 SpA / 252 SpD
nature: Calm

Moves
========

Dialga is one of the sturdiest Stealth Rock users in Ubers, as its typing and defenses often allow it to switch in multiple times throughout a match to set up the entry hazard. Toxic is mainly used to cripple support Arceus formes hoping to switch in and clear the field with Defog, though it has plenty of utility against other threats as well. It also notably allows Dialga to check Electric Arceus, which is a very difficult task otherwise. Draco Meteor's high Base Power compensates for the lack of offensive EV investment, and it still OHKOes Defog Giratina-O. Fire Blast hits Steel-types super effectively, notably Defog Scizor. However, Roar can be used instead to prevent Dialga from becoming setup fodder for Pokemon that have ways of dealing with Toxic. Thunder is also an option in the last slot for Kyogre and Substitute or Taunt users such as Lugia, Ho-Oh, and Yveltal.

Set Details
========

A specially defensive EV spread maximizes Dialga's ability to deal with Arceus formes and various other specially based threats. Speed investment is an option, as Dialga enjoys outpacing other Pokemon in the base 90 Speed tier such as Ho-Oh. Additionally, an alternative EV spread of 248 HP / 56 SpA / 204 SpD with a Modest nature is viable. In exchange for some special bulk, such a spread lets Dialga hit slightly harder while retaining the ability to survive two of Kyogre's unboosted Water Spouts or two of Palkia's Lustrous Orb-boosted Spacial Rends.

Usage Tips
========

Take advantage of Dialga's resistances and bulk as well as its ability to threaten Defog users; it can come in multiple times throughout a match to set up Stealth Rock if needed. That said, Dialga can still be worn down easily from repeated switch-ins because it lacks recovery outside of Leftovers. Also, Dialga should not always be led with, as it will often find itself starting against the opponent's Groudon or Landorus-T. Finally, it's worth noting that defensive Dialga is a good backup check to Kyogre, especially if it runs Thunder or Roar. It can also take on Palkia decently.

Team Options
========

In general, this variant of Dialga provides support for its teammates as opposed to requiring support of its own. Still, many Pokemon pair well with it. Ho-Oh, Lugia, Giratina-O, Rayquaza, Landorus-T, Shaymin-S, Thundurus, Mega Charizard Y, and Flying Arceus all have remarkable defensive synergy with Dialga. Yveltal, Kyogre, Palkia, and Water Arceus can threaten Ground-types and Blaziken effectively. Lastly, Mega Gengar can trap and eliminate Pokemon that are particularly troublesome for this set due to the lack of coverage, notably Fairy-type clerics such as Sylveon and Xerneas.


Offensive
########
name: Offensive
move 1: Draco Meteor
move 2: Flash Cannon
move 3: Fire Blast
move 4: Thunder / Stealth Rock
ability: Pressure
item: Life Orb / Adamant Orb
evs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
nature: Modest

Moves
========

Draco Meteor is usually Dialga's go-to STAB move, and it OHKOes or severely dents anything bar Fairy-types, Steel-types, and special walls thanks to the boost from Dialga's held item. Courtesy of its secondary Steel typing, Dialga can viably run Flash Cannon, which deters Fairy-types from switching into Draco Meteor by threatening to dent any that do. It also scores a super effective hit on Rock-types such as Tyranitar, Terrakion, and Rock Arceus. Fire Blast hits most Steel-types hard even after a special attack drop from Draco Meteor, particularly if a Life Orb is used. Thunder is primarily for Kyogre and Water Arceus, but it also hits certain special walls and tanks super effectively, including Lugia and Ho-Oh. If Thunder is unappealing, Stealth Rock is an option for use on more offensive teams that would otherwise lack a user of the move. However, it should be noted that without a status move, Dialga cannot reliably keep the entry hazard up against many Arceus formes that carry Defog.

Set Details
========

A Modest nature with maximum Special Attack and Speed investment maximizes Dialga's damaging potential and allows it to at least tie with other neutral-natured base 90 Speed Pokemon. A Timid nature can be used, but this causes Dialga to miss out on important potential OHKOs on Pokemon such as Groudon. Using an Adamant Orb over a Life Orb yields a similar drawback but improves Dialga's longevity.

Opting for an alternative EV spread of 152 HP / 252 SpA / 20 SpD / 84 Spe gives Dialga a small amount of added bulk with minimal Life Orb recoil and allows it to outspeed everything up to Pokemon with an uninvested base 100 Speed. This spread should be changed to 168 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 84 Spe if an Adamant Orb is used, as Life Orb recoil is not a factor.

Usage Tips
========

Offensive Dialga's Draco Meteor can actually OHKO all but the bulkiest of Ground- and Fighting-types that lack a secondary Steel typing, and Dialga easily threatens the Fairy- and Steel-types that can absorb a Draco Meteor with the appropriate move. However, be careful about using Draco Meteor against specially bulky Pokemon that can capitalize on the Special Attack drop it causes, such as Ho-Oh, Lugia, Blissey, and Calm Mind users. In addition, consider Dialga's bluffing potential as either a defensive Dialga (when at full HP) or a Choice-locked Dialga (when an Adamant Orb is equipped) to anticipate your opponent's reaction and smash them accordingly.

Team Options
========

Flying-types and Levitating Ghost-types make for naturally great teammates, as they cover Dialga's two weaknesses effectively. More specifically, offensive Dialga particularly appreciates Pokemon that can deal with specially bulky foes such as Blissey and Heatran. These include strong physical attackers and powerful wallbreakers such as Landorus-T and Choice Specs Kyogre, the latter of which provides rain to alleviate Thunder's accuracy problems. This Dialga variant also benefits greatly from entry hazard support. A single layer of Spikes or Stealth Rock can secure crucial KOs such as an OHKO on Groudon and a 2HKO on Tyranitar, while Sticky Web support allows Modest Dialga to outspeed the entire unboosted metagame outside of Deoxys-S and Naive Deoxys-A.


Choice Specs
########
name: Choice Specs
move 1: Draco Meteor
move 2: Flash Cannon
move 3: Fire Blast
move 4: Thunder
ability: Pressure
item: Choice Specs
evs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
nature: Modest

Moves
========

Backed by Choice Specs, Draco Meteor devastates nearly anything, even most Steel-types. Flash Cannon hits Fairy- and Rock-types super effectively, and it discourages the former from switching into Dialga at all. Fire Blast provides coverage against Steel-types, while Thunder is used for Kyogre, Water Arceus, Lugia, and Ho-Oh. Dragon Pulse is a much more consistent option than Draco Meteor, but it is considerably weaker.

Set Details
========

Maximizing Dialga's Special Attack stat causes its attacks to deal ludicrous amounts of damage with the boost from Choice Specs, while maximum Speed investment allows Dialga to outrun and OHKO bulkier Pokemon with a similar base Speed stat, such as support Groudon and defensive Yveltal. 168 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 84 Spe is an alternative EV spread that grants Dialga some added bulk while keeping its ability to outspeed everything up to Pokemon with an uninvested base 100 Speed intact. A Timid nature with the original EV spread is also viable in order to outpace Pokemon within the base 90-99 Speed range that commonly use a neutral Speed nature, such as Swords Dance Rayquaza.

Usage Tips
========

Most of the time, abuse Draco Meteor; it hurts most Steel-types, and Fairy-types will rarely switch in on Dialga because they fear taking a Flash Cannon. However, Fairy-types become a problem once Dialga's set is revealed, as they can then switch into a predicted Draco Meteor with impunity and receive a free turn afterwards. Be wary of special walls and Calm Mind users as well, because these Pokemon can survive a Draco Meteor and exploit the resultant Special Attack drop. Aside from this, a Choice Specs Draco Meteor will flat out OHKO every single relevant Ground- and Fighting-type other than Fighting Arceus, Excadrill, Lucario, and Ground Arceus, and even then, the latter two have a chance to be OHKOed. Also, Choice Specs Dialga can safely bluff any other set while at full HP, meaning it's not a bad choice to lead with—it can easily end up OHKOing a Ground-type threat such as Groudon right off the bat.

Team Options
========

Once again, Flying-types and Levitating Ghost-types make great teammates due to their defensive synergy with Dialga, while offensive juggernauts such as Mewtwo and Choice Specs Kyogre can muscle through the special walls that Dialga struggles against. A Toxic lure is also helpful for Pokemon such as Lugia, Ho-Oh, and Calm Mind users and aids Dialga in breaking past them later. This set also enjoys Sticky Web support due to Dialga's middling Speed.


Other Options
########

Dialga has a ton of other options, though many have decreased in effectiveness from previous generations. A Choice Scarf set is usable and notably effective at picking off weakened Extreme Killer Arceus. Air Balloon is another interesting item option for Dialga that is preferable to Magnet Rise because Magnet Rise takes up a moveslot. Aura Sphere and Earth Power are alternative coverage options that can hit Heatran super effectively, but they are inferior to Fire Blast against most other Steel-types. Similarly, Stone Edge or Power Gem can be used for Ho-Oh. Thunder Wave is a good status option that can neuter faster attackers. Heal Block works wonders against walls, but it is difficult to find room for. Dialga is a good user of Trick Room and can surprise many faster switch-ins with the move. Metal Burst is another intriguing option, but it is often too unreliable to be of much use. Dragon Tail can be used to phaze, but Roar is generally safer due to the existence of Fairy-types. Rest is Dialga's only reliable recovery move. Lastly, Bulk Up is yet another interesting option that can be used on a mixed lure set for Ground-types alongside Iron Head, Draco Meteor, and Fire Blast or Outrage. It can also be used on a RestTalk mono-attacking set with Iron Head, but this is rather gimmicky and wastes Dialga's formidable special attacking potential.


Checks & Counters
########

**Specially Bulky Clerics and Status Absorbers**: Dialga's standard support set is very difficult to outright counter, especially with the presence of Mega Gengar as a teammate. However, clerics such as Sylveon, Xerneas, and Blissey have no trouble against support Dialga. Specially defensive Kyogre can take on Dialga lacking Thunder. Many other specially bulky Pokemon are good answers to Dialga as well, especially if they have methods of dealing with Toxic. Heatran and defensive Mega Mewtwo Y are notable examples of this.

**Ground- and Fighting-types**: Though they cannot switch in easily, Ground- and Fighting-types such as Groudon, Ground Arceus, Blaziken, and Mega Mewtwo X are capable of OHKOing Dialga with their STAB moves.

**Arceus Formes**: Almost any variant of Arceus that doesn't mind Toxic is a good answer to Dialga, including Poison Arceus and Calm Mind + Refresh Water, Dark, or Fairy Arceus.

**Ho-Oh**: Due to Regenerator, Ho-Oh doesn't mind Toxic as much as other special walls, fearing only Thunder. It can often safely set up a Substitute against Dialga or hit it hard with Sacred Fire or Earthquake.

**Anti-Leading**: Darkrai threatens Dialga in a lead scenario, as do Pokemon that can hit it super effectively, such as offensive Groudon.

skeleton lol

Overview
########

• Extremely reliable Stealth Rock user, good defenses and defensive typing
• Offensively, has base 150 SpA and Dragon-type STAB complemented by the rare Steel-type STAB
  
• Very versatile and thus unpredictable and notoriously difficult to switch into + has a way around all of its checks and counters
• Does not have many shortcomings at all other than average Speed and weakness to common Ground-type moves
• Loss of Dark- and Ghost-type resistances is annoying, as is the nerf to special moves

Defensive
########
name: Defensive
move 1: Stealth Rock
move 2: Toxic
move 3: Draco Meteor
move 4: Fire Blast / Roar
ability: Pressure
item: Leftovers
evs: 248 HP / 8 SpA / 252 SpD
nature: Calm

Moves
========

• Stealth Rock is Stealth Rock, Dialga is an incredibly reliable user of it
• Toxic is mainly for support Arceus hoping to come in and Defog. It notably allows Dialga to check Electric Arceus, which is very difficult to do
  
• Draco Meteor's high BP makes up for the lack of offensive investment, and it OHKOes Defog Giratina-O
• Fire Blast his Steel-types (notably Defog Scizor)
• Roar is good with Stealth Rock and prevents Dialga from becoming setup bait
  
• Thunder is an option for Kyogre and Subsitute/Taunt users such as Ho-Oh, Lugia, and Yveltal

Set Details
========

• EV spread lets Dialga deal with support Arceus effectively
• Speed investment is viable, Dialga likes outspeeding other base 90s like support Groudon
  
• EV spread of 248 HP / 60 SpA / 200 SpD with a Modest nature lets Dialga hit moderately hard but still take two unboosted Water Spouts or Lustrous Orb Spacial Rends

Usage Tips
========

• Dialga has the bulk and typing to come in multiple times throughout a match and set up Stealth Rock, so take advantage of that
• Also take advantage of its ability to beat Defog users (support Arceus, Giratina-O, Scizor with Toxic/Draco Meteor/Fire Blast)
• Don't be predictable and always lead with Dialga, as you'll often find yourself starting against your opponent's Groudon or Landorus-T
• Dialga is a good backup check to non-Specs Kyogre, especially if it runs Thunder (or Roar for defensive variants). To a lesser extent, it can also take on Palkia decently. It should never be the primary check to either, though
  
• It should be stressed that Dialga gets worn down easily from repeated switch-ins due to no recovery outside of Leftovers

Team Options
========

• Teammates that appreciate a reliable Stealth Rock user that can keep it up throughout the match
• Naturally, Pokemon that can take on Ground-types and Fighting-types are good teammates. Examples of these include Landorus-T, Gliscor, Kyogre, Palkia, Water/Grass Arceus, Giratina-O, Yveltal, Gengar, Skarmory, defensive Xerneas, Mewtwo

All-Out Attacker
########
name: Offensive
move 1: Draco Meteor
move 2: Flash Cannon
move 3: Fire Blast
move 4: Thunder
ability: Pressure
item: Life Orb / Adamant Orb
evs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
nature: Modest

Moves
========

• Draco Meteor is usually Dialga's go-to STAB move, Fairy-types usually don't switch into offensive Dialga due to the threat of Flash Cannon
• Flash Cannon is also notable for its ability to hit Tyranitar, Rock Arceus, and Terrakion super effectively
  
• Fire Blast hits Steel-types
• Thunder is for Kyogre, Ho-Oh, Lugia, Yveltal, and Water Arceus

Set Details
========

• 152 HP / 252 SpA / 20 SpD / 84 Spe is a bulkier spread with enough Speed for everything up to uninvested base 100s (Gliscor, Xerneas/Yveltal, Palkia) and minimal Life Orb recoil
  
• 168 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 84 Spe for a bulkier spread with Adamant Orb
• A Timid nature can be used to outspeed neutral natured base 95s/99s and tie other base 90s

Usage Tips
========

• LO/Adamant Orb Draco Meteor can actually OHKO all but the specially bulkiest of Ground- and Fighting-types even without any prior damage (and Fire Blast hits those that resist it), so don't be afraid to use it excessively, especially since Fairy-types can simply be hit with Flash Cannon if they decide to switch in. Be careful against Ho-Oh, Lugia, Blissey, support Arceus, specially defensive Yveltal, etc. though (i.e. Pokemon that can easily take advantage of Draco Meteor's SpA drop and use a recovery move)
  
• Dialga at full HP can potentially bluff a defensive set
  
• Likewise, using Adamant Orb can allow you to bluff Choice Specs if Dialga KOes something

Team Options
========

• Again, Pokemon that take on Ground- and Fighting-types well are good teammates
• Pokemon that can deal with Blissey are also good teammates (strong physical attackers, 101 HP Substitute users, etc.)
  
• Spikes/SR support is useful, as a single layer of Spikes or Stealth Rock often secures KOs (e.g. the 2HKO on Tyranitar with Flash Cannon)
  
• Dialga can often lure in and heavily damage things like Steel-types after a Draco Meteor -- pair it with sweepers that need these Pokemon gone, such as Extreme Killer Arceus

Choice Specs
########
name: Choice Specs
move 1: Draco Meteor
move 2: Flash Cannon
move 3: Fire Blast
move 4: Thunder
ability: Pressure
item: Choice Specs
evs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
nature: Modest

Moves
========

• Draco Meteor inflicts massive damage on everything, even some Steel-types, with a Choice Specs boost -- Flash Cannon strongly discourages Fairy-types from switching in
• Flash Cannon hits Fairy-types and Rock-types super effectively
• Fire Blast is for Steel-types
• Thunder is for Kyogre, Water Arceus, and bulky Flying-types (Ho-Oh, Lugia, the rare specially defensive Yveltal)
• Dragon Pulse is much more consistent than Draco Meteor, but considerably weaker

Set Details
========

• 168 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 84 Spe is a bulkier spread with enough Speed for everything up to uninvested base 100s (Gliscor, Xerneas/Yveltal, Palkia)
• A Timid nature can be used to outspeed neutral natured base 95s/99s and tie other base 90s

Usage Tips
========

• Spam Draco Meteor, but be careful after your first use of it -- the opponent will usually be able to tell that Dialga is Choice-locked and can switch in a Fairy-type
• Specs Draco Meteor will flat out OHKO every single relevant Ground- and Fighting-type from full HP bar Ground Arceus, Excadrill, Fighting Arceus, and Lucario (although Ground Arceus has a small chance of being OHKOed while Lucario has a 50% chance) -- do not hesitate to use it in most cases unless the opponent has a Fairy-type or something like Ho-Oh, Lugia, or Blissey that can take advantage of the SpA drop it causes
• Choice Specs Dialga can potentially bluff a defensive set when at full HP. Thus, it's actually not a bad choice to lead with, and it can easily OHKO something like Groudon or Landorus-T right off the bat

Team Options
========

• Choice Specs Dialga is actually capable of OHKOing pretty much everything that threatens it; teammates that deal with Ground- and Fighting-types are nice, but not necessary
• A Toxic lure for Pokemon like Lugia and Ho-Oh significantly aids Dialga in breaking past them later
• Pokemon that can deal with Blissey are also good teammates (strong physical attackers, 101 HP Substitute users, etc.)

Other Options
########

• Choice Scarf
• Air Balloon
• Aura Sphere
  
• Earth Power
• Stone Edge/Power Gem
• Thunder Wave
• Heal Block
• Trick Room
  
• Metal Burst
• Rest
  
• Dragon Tail
• Mixed
• Bulk Up
• Specs-boosted Roar of Time will actually OHKO Ground Arceus (and Lucario) 100% of the time, and it has a chance to OHKO Fighting Arceus as well

Checks & Counters
########

• Heatran
  
• Ground-types
• Fighting-types
• Blissey
• Other special walls/tanks (Lugia/Ho-Oh) if rain is not up
  
• Calm Mind Arceus
• Tyranitar
  
• Shadow Tag (mainly Mega Gengar and Gothitelle)
• Fairy-types that can cure status easily defeat the defensive set

 

[PISTOLERO]

i1338 the other SpDef set for Dialga is:

Modest, 252 HP, 56 SpA, 200 SpDef Modest

allows survival of two scarf spouts and two lustrous rends

although personally i love running Calm and near max investment + a little speed, maybe you should creep to beat 0 speed landorus-t?

 

[SuperWumbology]

i1338 is there no stop to your analysis snatching tyranny?

 

[Fireburn]

Mention things that kill Blissey as teammates since Dialga has trouble against it.

I think Adamant Orb is worth slashing after Life Orb instead of being just a Moves mention. Dialga primarily relies on STABs and it helps preserve its bulk which is nice given its solid defensive typing.

Take Ice Beam and Magnet Rise out of OO and put in Air Balloon.

Mention that the first set checks Electric Arceus really well (a hard mon to check otherwise) and is a good soft check to other things like Kyogre and Palkia.

 

[Hack]

Unsure about the optimal spread for this, I have always run a little more special attack, but I forgot what it was for. I'll get back when I know what's best for it.

 

[Sweep]

Being pedantic here, but change "great" defense to "good" defenses in the introduction. 100/120/100 bulk is very good even by Ubers standards, but not great...especially with the lack of reliable recovery. Now for some more relevant notes.

Support

1. Make the 56 Special Attack 200 Special Defense spread the first option for now, since Palkia and Scarf Kyogre are still huge threats.

2. Though speed creep is never mentioned in the actual spreads, briefly mention in the actual analysis that support Dialga often really likes to run some to outrun Groudon, Giratina, etc. Competent players very rarely run less than 16 Speed on any Dialga.

3. In usage tips, also briefly mention that while Dialga does find opportunities to switch in due to its typing, it does not live forever and gets worn down kinda quickly if you are careless. In other words, since this should not be a primary check to Kyogre / Palkia (unless on a super-offensive team which this actually fits on), it should not be played like it due to the lack of recovery. Dialga is a safer switchin than most, but be cautious of getting too comfortable switching it in over and over. Tips are excellent otherwise.

4. Where the fuck is Haze Murkrow in the Team Options section??? I'll have you know that Murkrow is literally the only check to Baton Pass chains. It also synergizes well by providing a Ground immunity.

5. Alternatively, you could mention tank Xerneas since it resists Fighting moves and handles most Ground types well barring SD Groundceus I guess, while Dialga checks mons that threaten it like Iron Head Genesect, SD Scizor, etc. The two need to watch out for the uncommon Lucario but there are other checks for that.

Life Orb

1. Slash Thunder after Stealth Rock for people who want to use Dialga as a pure wallbreaker / already have another SR user.

2. Adamant Orb doesn't hit hard enough to bluff Choice Specs, unless you OHKO something like Lando-T with it (which tbf it almost always does). Anyone with a damage calculator will not be fooled since a max damage roll from Adamant Orb will always do less damage than a min damage roll from Choice Specs. IMO remove that line.

3. Team options look good.

Choice Specs

1. Move Dragon Pulse from OO to here, but don't slash it anywhere. It's nice and consistent, but hard to fit.

2. I'd remove the SR/Spikes mentions, especially for this Pokemon since it's so good at nabbing OHKOes...common knowledge that hazard support helps.


Remove Specs Roar of Time mention from OO, please please PLEASE do not give the ladder any dumb ideas. Specs Eruption Groudon can also get surprise kills and it isn't viable.

I'd move Heatran up to #1 in Checks & Counters since unlike Ground and Fighting types, it beautifully switches into all of Dialga's sets at least once. Blissey does too but fuck Blissey.

This looks good, I'll stamp when Hack or other QC come up with a more optimal spread for Support Dialga, assuming 200 Special Defense isn't the most optimal already.

 

[Inspirited]

Perhaps Trick Room in other options, it is one of the few viable setters of it and it can actually abuse it to an extent with its mediocre speed and amazing SpA. OO is already huge though but I guess that is because Dialga is Dialga :P

 

[PISTOLERO]

Perhaps Trick Room in other options, it is one of the few viable setters of it and it can actually abuse it to an extent with its mediocre speed and amazing SpA. OO is already huge though but I guess that is because Dialga is Dialga :P

TRialga (Trialga? we say TRalkia) is actually really great as it has the bulk to set up TR, and TR as a move can wreck HO - you can run max Atk and SpA, or max HP and SpA. I agree with WreckDra that it deserves a mention somewhere, even if it is very DPP oldschool

 

[Disaster Area]

I think TRalkia is so much better than TR Dialga though.. defensively its typing makes it take neutrally/SE a lot of annoying types, whereas palkia has a great typing with 2 weaknesses, and notable 4x resists that give it much better opportunity to set up. Bizarrely I managed to make a Rest+TR Palkia work pretty nicely.. I'm not sure if TR Dialga is totally OO viable or not just because Palkia is so good at it, like if u want TR + awesome typing go palkia, and TR+SR go Bronzong, which is still bulky and fills a hugely important niche, whereas I've always felt Dialga's a bit of a jack-of-all-trades mon in ubers.

 

[PISTOLERO]

I think TRalkia is so much better than TR Dialga though.. defensively its typing makes it take neutrally/SE a lot of annoying types, whereas palkia has a great typing with 2 weaknesses, and notable 4x resists that give it much better opportunity to set up. Bizarrely I managed to make a Rest+TR Palkia work pretty nicely.. I'm not sure if TR Dialga is totally OO viable or not just because Palkia is so good at it, like if u want TR + awesome typing go palkia, and TR+SR go Bronzong, which is still bulky and fills a hugely important niche, whereas I've always felt Dialga's a bit of a jack-of-all-trades mon in ubers.

It's TRialga or TRiangles :3

 

[user php]

quixk question, what use doea thw modeart 56 sp. attack evs have on the def set, does it have a specific purpoae like to gain a relevant ko on some mons or is it justy to make diala hit " a bit harder"
*sry on phone so thats why typing is terrible

 

[Inspirited]

According to last gens analysis, the 56 SpA allowed Dialga to OHKO Darkrai always and 2HKO most Ho-Oh and Kyogre with Thunder. It can't do this anymore with these EVs because of the nerfs these moves received so this might be why Hack He Must runs slightly more this gen in order to still hit these benchmarks. This will probably cut into its special bulk significantly though.

After running calcs out of curiosity:

It can still KO Darkrai w/ Stealth Rock with only 4 EVs more:
60+ SpA Dialga Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Darkrai: 249-294 (88.6 - 104.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

Dialga needs all 252 EV's in SpA to KO Darkrai w/o:
252+ SpA Dialga Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Darkrai: 282-333 (100.3 - 118.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

It needs 172 to 2HKO Ho-Oh or KO it after rocks:
172+ SpA Dialga Thunder vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Ho-Oh: 208-246 (50 - 59.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

It is still able to 2HKO Kyogre and make it so Specs can't 2HKO with Water Spout.

I'm starting to get the feeling that whoever wrote last gens analysis was only accounting for the special bulk required to take 2 Lustrous Spacial Rends with the rest tossed into SpA to give Dialga some punch. The calcs show that the 56SpA was kind of random and doesn't really hit the benchmarks specified right on the nose. I honestly don't know what you should do with these calcs but only putting 4 EVs more into SpA is pretty doable.

 

[Muk]

I'm starting to get the feeling that whoever wrote last gens analysis was only accounting for the special bulk required to take 2 Lustrous Spacial Rends with the rest tossed into SpA to give Dialga some punch. The calcs show that the 56SpA was kind of random and doesn't really hit the benchmarks specified right on the nose.

Modest w/ 56 SpA is a jump point, so I don't doubt this at all.

E: btw, Dialga can still OHKO Darkrai after SR with 56 EVs (it does min 87.9%)

 

[Hack]

Nah I was just using some custom spread. I still used Calm nature, I think it's a necessity in the current metagame. So I'd just say go with the current spread for now.

 

[Muk]

Nah I was just using some custom spread. I still used Calm nature, I think it's a necessity in the current metagame. So I'd just say go with the current spread for now.

Will do, I assume you mean the Calm spread even though it's not currently listed

 

[Hack]

Yeah I meant Calm

 

[Muk]

Melee Mewtwo mentioned an offensive SR set that can beat support Arceus, what does everyone think of something like this (neither of us has tried it out though):

name: Offensive Stealth Rock
move 1: Stealth Rock
move 2: Thunder Wave
move 3: Draco Meteor
move 4: Fire Blast / Thunder
ability: Pressure
item: Life Orb
evs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe or 152 HP / 252 SpA / 20 SpD / 84 Spe
nature: Modest

Ideally you use Thunder Wave against Arceus and KO it with Fire Blast + Draco Meteor (LO Draco Meteor does minimum 65% to 252/0 Arceus). Alternatively, you lure it in and use Thunder Wave, then come in later, use SR, and KO it. If a set like this were to be incorporated, I'd probably just merge the current LO / Adamant Orb set with the Specs set.

Obviously, Fairyceus is a problem, but Flash Cannon in the last slot with an Adamant Orb can remedy this (though it obviously leaves you walled by Steels). Adamant Orb Flash Cannon + DM will KO Arceus most of the time, and if Flash Cannon doesn't do enough, it's not an issue since there's no LO recoil.

 

[Fireburn]

Just put Thunder Wave in Moves on the offensive set imo. I don't like TWave on Dialga since its a free switch for Ground-types but it can work.

QC Approved 1/3

 

[Sweep]

QC Approved 2/3

Note @ below: your last paragraph sounds fine with me. I'd like to see Specs get its own set even though Specs Dialga isn't as good this gen since Draco Meteor spam is harder to get away with. I also agree Thunder Wave or Toxic is needed on sets with SR (if mm2 prefers TWave that's fine with me).

 

[Muk]

Alright, I guess I'll be leaving the sets as is then (but with Thunder Wave in the Moves section on the second set)

Edit: OK, never mind, I'm going to be merging the LO/Adamant Orb set with the Specs set and making the Offensive SR set its own, as per the request of Melee Mewtwo, mainly because an offensive set is terrible at keeping SR up without TWave.

Alternatively, I was thinking of making both SR and TWave secondary slashes (with Thunder and Flash Cannon, respectively) on the LO/Adamant Orb set and specifying that SR should only be used with TWave, because I would prefer that the Specs set be completely separate from the LO/Adamant Orb set. Sweep Fireburn feel free to comment on this and/or the specifics of the set(s) in general.

 

[PISTOLERO]

Muk if you don't feel you have time to write this up into paragraphs I'd be happy to do it for you :)

 

[Muk]

Sorry, I do

(I probably won't until the weekend though lel)

edit: ugh, still haven't found the time to write this -- rest assured i'll get it done soon though

 

[shrang]

I'm quite busy at the moment, so I'm just going to outline a few things which I think really should be addressed before we move on:
- Trick Room - I think is probably worth a set
- Bulk Up + Draco Meteor Mixed - Good lure, especially when can Draco Meteor the crap out of Landorus-T
- Bulk Up mono attacker - probably OO, but maybe go and test it out (going to have to use Iron Head, but not necessarily a bad thing)
- I can't see why offensive SR should be separate from the LO/Adamant Orb set. I personally think if you want to use Thunder Wave + SR, you may as well use the defensive set, and no, you don't beat support Arceus with it anyway. Again, if you want to beat support Arceus, you use defensive. I know Thunder Wave can be an emergency stop to Xerneas who come in to set up on you after you DM something, but since Sub Geo is common, you lose against that anyway.

I want all of these at least discussed in some way, if not put into the analysis before I give a 3rd check.

 

[Hack]

TR- it's a cool thing but not set worthy. Dedicated TR teams are shit and standalone setters are nice but they need a good relevant defensive niche in the meta- Palkia checks Kyogre well and Victini checks Xerneas. TR Dialga loses out on the normal things Dialga can check, eg eleceus, but does still do fairly okay vs Palkia i guess. Still not sure if equates to giving it a set, I'd just rather use Dialga in its more distinguished role as the best SR setter in the game.

BU+Draco looks fun in theory but i don't see how it lures in Lando-T as bulking up will dissuade the common defensive Lando-T's to switch in anyway- after a BU, Dialga isn't 2HKOd and Lando can't phaze either so yeah, it won't exactly be attempting to come in on you even if you reveal BU. OO can do, it's nice for Ho-oh/Groudon teams (Groudon has much more incentive to get in on BU variants as it can phaze, and Ho-oh likes coming on special attacking variants only to be met with boosted outrages).

BU Mono is prolly oo with distinct notes that it should almost be impossible to justify a slot for it on a serious build.

Offensive SR should be LO SR, I don't see the point of using a non choiced Dialga without SR anyway (which means i don't see a point in using Dialga without SR as choice sets are garb).

 

[Hack]

Checks & Counters
########

Dialga's support set is incredibly hard to straight out counter, and the possible addition of Gengar as a teammate, things become even worse.

**Specially bulky clerics/status absorbers**:
As Dialga is usually carrying Toxic (support variant is about 60000000x better than the other variants) saying "special walls" are general counters isn't elaborate enough. Blissey, Sylveon and Xerenas are basically your best bets for those reasons. Shed Shell Blissey escapes Gengar too, which is always nice. Mention special walls can beat sets without Toxic here. Sdef Kyogre beats Dialga without Thunder.

**STAB Ground and Fighting-type attacks**:
Some attacks can actually OHKO Dialga! Blaziken, Groudon, Lucario and MMX are mons you can mention here.

**Arceus-Poison and other Arceus formes that can take Toxic**:
Probably your best to-go Arceus-forme to check Dialga, it defogs and burns Dialga with impunity. CM+Refresh Arceus like Dark, Water and Fairy can potentially set up on Dialga. Arceus-Fighting can be mentioned here as it is bulky enough to live hits and dishes out SE judgments.

**Ho-oh**:
It deserves its own point, Toxic is not as crippling to it as other special walls, and it hits back hard as hell, and switching in is incredibly hard. It could potentially sub up on a Toxic too. It can fall to offensive variants if Thunder hits.

**Misc**: Heatran, Stalltwo-y, sleep (breloom and darkrai threatens it in a lead scenario) as well as the uncommon lead Garchomp means trouble for Dialga.

Muk