Ditto

[Vakama3]

I hate to say it, because its been said like 20 times. But Vakama. Your 3rd point... REVENGE KILLER. He comes in AFTER a pokemon dies. WHY THE HELL would you send him in front of an attack? Let him come in after the death of one of your own.


This literally needs to be written in capital bolded letters and bright colors on the first post because everyone keeps saying that same issue. "lol send ditto in while my gyara is using dd, now your plan is flawed." Yeah. If I am an idiot and don't know how to revenge kill correctly.

My point being is that you pretty much HAVE to sacrifice something to get Ditto in safely against a +3/+3 monster, which yes, is how a revenge killer works. Yes, Ditto most likely will revenge kill, but Ditto can't really set up again if it's forced out without sacrificing another Pokemon. Scarf Ditto is forced to use one move that you know in advance with 5 PP. It'll destroy what it's revenge killing and maybe will sweep if you aren't careful, but it IS beatable.

Ditto will be a fabulous revenge killer and will be my revenge killer of choice, but I don't think it's broken enough to warrant a ban.

 

[Thorhammer]

Ditto copies its opponent's boosts, which means it loses its own.

 

[Zeke50100]

3 Pokemon with Encore, 1 Ditto. Wait for Sweeper, Encore their DD/SD/CM, die, revenge kill a crapton of things. The other 2 on your team will be Screens and Explosion :D

 

[Thorhammer]

3 Pokemon with Encore, 1 Ditto. Wait for Sweeper, Encore their DD/SD/CM, die, revenge kill a crapton of things. The other 2 on your team will be Screens and Explosion :D

Too obvious and easy for the opponent to avoid.

On another note, Ditto won't have to revenge kill if you can absorb a boosted hit with something holding an Escape Button.

 

[RaRaRabbit]

Ditto copies its opponent's boosts, which means it loses its own.

Ah damn. It's so easy to get caught up in an idea and then realize there is a tiny detail that says otherwise. :[

NO SPEED BOOSTS FOR DITTO VIA BATON PASS.

 

[Zeke50100]

It wasn't so much of a serious competitive suggestion as it was a "Hey, a gimmicky strategy that's less gimmicky than most other strategies!"

It's at least more reliable than GyaraVire >.>

 

[cosmicexplorer]

It wasn't so much of a serious competitive suggestion as it was a "Hey, a gimmicky strategy that's less gimmicky than most other strategies!"

It's at least more reliable than GyaraVire >.>

Well with that Rechargeable Battery (assuming it works on EVire), GyaraVire may be very solid. But that's beside the point. That Encore strategy would be fun if it worked. :(

 

[Emperor]

Does anybody have a list of what items in the game increase speed? (new and current) I'd like to see what other possible options ditto has. Obviously berry strategies are out since that would mean ditto would have to stall >.>

 

[S.T.A.R.S.]

Oh lawdy, the little pink pimp is going to be useful ow. I agree, Choice Scarf Ditto may be the ultimate Revenge killer, but that doesn't make him perfect. He still takes neutral damage from stealth Rocks, Doesn't avoid Spikes or toxic spikes and can still be affected by weather depending on who he switches into. All that switching is going to take its toll on ditto if SR is out on the field. And you still have priority attacks, Ditto may be fast, but he still isn't faster them 1+ priority if he is locked into one attack, and he can be easily Pursited if predicted correctly. Ditto can be a beast, but there are going to be ways to get rid of him

 

[NDenizen]

Ditto doesn't really apply to "the problem of priority moves" because he can recieve them just as easily as not, it all depends on whether you're copying Salamence or Dragonite. Custap aside some Pokemon don't ever have Priority moves at all.

Now, to compliment my last two flawed suggestions regarding Ditto - how about the use of Tailwind to assure higher speed? If by some means that's in effect when Ditto comes in, he can overtake the boosted enemy without the need of Choice Scarf, and has all four moves and its own item to play with. A Sturdy Skarmory could provide this, though a Sashed Crobat avoids Flinchhax

It sounds gimmicky, but it's not crazy to think such a combo might win you the game. Of course, the natural absence of Tailwind means you could see Ditto coming from a mile away. A speedy pokemon packing Escape Button just might be able to provide this.

 

[Yogi Bear.]

Agreed. Counting on the incompetence of your enemy to be even further incompetent, that's kind of hard to do...
You seem to think that most people will have perfected their teams within the first couple of weeks of Shoddy 2.

Is their an item that boosts speed that DOESN'T lock up move selection (that's not haxing like Quick Claw) and works after the transformation?

Ditto doesn't really need the entire increase in speed and prefers having move selection.

 

[Qijun]

Don't know if this has been mentioned before but, wouldn't substitute sweepers become more common because of their ability to beat ditto?

 

[cosmicexplorer]

Ditto doesn't really apply to "the problem of priority moves" because he can recieve them just as easily as not, it all depends on whether you're copying Salamence or Dragonite. Custap aside some Pokemon don't ever have Priority moves at all.

Now, to compliment my last two flawed suggestions regarding Ditto - how about the use of Tailwind to assure higher speed? If by some means that's in effect when Ditto comes in, he can overtake the boosted enemy without the need of Choice Scarf, and has all four moves and its own item to play with. A Sturdy Skarmory could provide this, though a Sashed Crobat avoids Flinchhax

It sounds gimmicky, but it's not crazy to think such a combo might win you the game. Of course, the natural absence of Tailwind means you could see Ditto coming from a mile away. A speedy pokemon packing Escape Button just might be able to provide this.

The thing about Tailwind is that it only lasts for 3 turns, so even if your opponent doesn't play conservatively while you have Tailwind active (I know I would; I wouldn't want to setup when the opponent's team is twice as fast), it'll stop too quickly to let you accomplish anything significant, while signaling to your opponent that your team is built around a Ditto sweep. It's an interesting strategy that certainly works in theory, but fails in practice.

EDIT: @Qijun: Substitute sweepers generally don't raise their stats, so another pokemon that takes low damage from their attacks and can break a sub in one hit is better.

 

[Spenstar]

I got an idea! Iron Ball ditto on a Trick Room team. Ditto always goes first!

 

[Staraptor Call]

This new ability for Ditto needs a lot of researching before we jump to conclusions. Most importantly, we have to know if it copies boosts, if Ditto can still use its item, and if it copies Pokemon behind Subs.

 

[NDenizen]

The thing about Tailwind is that it only lasts for 3 turns, so even if your opponent doesn't play conservatively while you have Tailwind active (I know I would; I wouldn't want to setup when the opponent's team is twice as fast), it'll stop too quickly to let you accomplish anything significant, while signaling to your opponent that your team is built around a Ditto sweep. It's an interesting strategy that certainly works in theory, but fails in practice.

3 Turns is bad, i'll admit, but the whole reason for using it would be for that one turn where you can outspeed your opponent - just enough so you can beat the guy you just transformed into, then use their boosts to kill the rest of his team. It isn't the best of strategies indeed, but i'll give it a spin when I can.

So far, the key to avoiding that crippling blow without the use of Choice Scarf does seem to be Baton Passing a substitute, which in itself is risky.

Don't blame me here, i'm just trying to see ways of using Ditto as an enhanced Heart Swapper gimmick, rather than the Choiced Revenge equivalent :P

 

[cosmicexplorer]

I got an idea! Iron Ball ditto on a Trick Room team. Ditto always goes first!

Unless he transforms into something fast. But otherwise, that could work.

EDIT: @NDenizen: Ditto still takes the hard hit from the setup sweeper, unless you switch as they setup (which would require amazing prediction). I can see it working, but I'd have to try it myself to see if it works and improve it, so I can't really say anything for or against it. Nevertheless, it looks like a possible strategy and will be fun to try, because Ditto is that cool.

@Staraptor Call: This has been discussed earlier in the thread. From Smogon's research and several other websites, the move Transform copies the actual stat, meaning that it retains the boosts. Copying pokemon behind subs would be kind of pointless, considering that Substitute sweepers generally don't boost their stats, which is what Ditto was designed for. If Ditto switches in on something behind a sub, that pokemon gets a free Ditto kill. Also, I'm assuming items can be held, looking at this line of text from Smogon:

...which means that DeapSeaScale, DeepSeaTooth, Light Ball, Metal Powder, Quick Powder, Soul Dew, and Thick Club activate only if the target is the correct species.

This suggests that the item Ditto holds activates only if Ditto transforms into a pokemon that reacts with the item, therefore implying that Ditto can hold any item it wants. That's why everyone thinks it works the way we describe it.

EDIT2: @Spenstar: I believe it's 198 speed. Anyway, TR works well against both offensive and stall, but against balanced teams it might have more of a problem, especially if it comes in on a Dragon that has DDed. It could outspeed offensive members if it comes in on a slower pokemon, but then it will probably have bad attacking moves, due to the nature of slower pokemon, or it could be "slower" than the opposing slow pokemon under Trick Room, but have powerful moves. A difficult situation.

 

[Spenstar]

Unless he transforms into something fast. But otherwise, that could work.

Even if he does, he's still slower than the opponent due to iron ball. And even if he does copy something fast...

If he copies max speed Jolteon he ends up with 187 speed or something like that.

 

[VaxtinTheWolf]

If this works like you all think. This Ditto was made to be the answer to those 140+ BP Attackers. Like that Dragon pokemon everyone was fearing

 

[Lauke]

I'm probably one of the people most excited about a possible Ditto viability in standard competitive play, but I can't see it happen because of one thing (I know it has been mentioned by one person before, but it seems like it didn't catch a lot of attention)

What if both players lead with Ditto? Thinking logically, you would assume an endless cycle of Eccentric procs would occur (much like Castform in an Acid Rain), forcing one of the players to forfait the game.

If this is the case it would be unacceptable to allow ditto in any tier.

Someone mentioned that in the case of ditto (untransformed) vs ditto (untransformed) there would only be one eccentric proc from both ditto. If this really is the case it would mean both players get the choice between: 1) use the move transform 2) switch to another pokemon. One can easily guess which of the choices is more likely to be chosen by both trainers, namely use the move transform. this would lead to an endless cycle of using transform (you will have endless PP because you get 5 transform PPs every time you transform in the opponents ditto), until one of the trainers gives up and switches to another pokemon.

If the latter turns out to be true, I can't see ditto being allowed either..

PLEASE someone prove me wrong, cause i'd love to use ditto in competitive play

on a side note: -What happens if ditto switches into a pokemon with the Mummy ability? (which of the abilities gets priority? hopefully Eccentric..)
-When ditto switches in to a Flying/Levitating/Magic Guard opponent while spikes are on the field, does it take spike damage?

 

[Glinki]

Ditto copies its opponent's boosts, which means it loses its own.

Wow, did everybody miss this? I think you got something there. Put scarf on a ditto speeds up the ditto then ditto LOSSES its scarf boost becoming what its in front of it. Meaning that putting a scarf on a Ditto is the most pointless thing since protect slaking. It does nothing but cripple it.

Other items which don't effect stats like Lefties or some other creative novelties are going to be the way to go I think.

 

[XenoIncognito]

Wow, did everybody miss this? I think you got something there. Put scarf on a ditto speeds up the ditto then ditto LOSSES its scarf boost becoming what its in front of it. Meaning that putting a scarf on a Ditto is the most pointless thing since protect slaking. It does nothing but cripple it.

Other items which don't effect stats like Lefties or some other creative novelties are going to be the way to go I think.

I know some people here are new to competitive battling, but please, pay attention to the thread.

Choice Scarf is not a +1 speed boost in the sense that it raises or lowers its speed a stage. Scarf modifies speed seperately from stat upping moves like Agility.

Therefore, if a scarfed Ditto switched into something with +5 speed, then it will copy the enemy's +5 speed in addition to its scarf boost, meaning it will always outspeed the enemy provided that their stat boosts are at the same level.

As a reference, the Gen 4 speed formula is:

Final Speed Stat = Current Stat * Stat Modifier * Speed Ability Modifier * 
Speed Item Modifier * Paralysis Modifier * Tailwind Modifier

"Stat Modifier" would be something like Agility or Dragon Dance. "Speed Item Modifier" is something like Choice Scarf or Iron Ball. Therefore, they're in seperate categories.

 

[Glinki]

Choice Scarf is not a +1 speed boost in the sense that it raises or lowers its speed a stage. Scarf modifies speed seperately from stat upping moves like Agility.

Therefore, if a scarfed Ditto switched into something with +5 speed, then it will copy the enemy's +5 speed in addition to its scarf boost, meaning it will always outspeed the enemy provided that their stat boosts are at the same level.

Yeah I knew all that, I thought speed was calculated at the beginning of a turn before ditto transformed. Now I think about it, essentirc even by passes all of that. So no dice, I know I know.

 

[Sandstreamer]

I'm probably one of the people most excited about a possible Ditto viability in standard competitive play, but I can't see it happen because of one thing (I know it has been mentioned by one person before, but it seems like it didn't catch a lot of attention)

What if both players lead with Ditto? Thinking logically, you would assume an endless cycle of Eccentric procs would occur (much like Castform in an Acid Rain), forcing one of the players to forfait the game.

If this is the case it would be unacceptable to allow ditto in any tier.

Someone mentioned that in the case of ditto (untransformed) vs ditto (untransformed) there would only be one eccentric proc from both ditto. If this really is the case it would mean both players get the choice between: 1) use the move transform 2) switch to another pokemon. One can easily guess which of the choices is more likely to be chosen by both trainers, namely use the move transform. this would lead to an endless cycle of using transform (you will have endless PP because you get 5 transform PPs every time you transform in the opponents ditto), until one of the trainers gives up and switches to another pokemon.

If the latter turns out to be true, I can't see ditto being allowed either..

PLEASE someone prove me wrong, cause i'd love to use ditto in competitive play

on a side note: -What happens if ditto switches into a pokemon with the Mummy ability? (which of the abilities gets priority? hopefully Eccentric..)
-When ditto switches in to a Flying/Levitating/Magic Guard opponent while spikes are on the field, does it take spike damage?

Guuuys... Eccentric loop is highly unlikely as we already DO NOT have a Trace loop and both abilities are supposed to work in a similar way. Eccentric (by the description we know) has no other trigger event than switching in, and that will NOT occur 1000 times a round...
The second example is a nice thought experiment except it won't occur because using Transform is the WORSE option. In the scenario described both players will opt to bring in their Blissey (or some other pokemon that does well against a Ditto version of itself) into the enemy Ditto.

 

[Lauke]

Guuuys... Eccentric loop is highly unlikely as we already DO NOT have a Trace loop and both abilities are supposed to work in a similar way. Eccentric (by the description we know) has no other trigger event than switching in, and that will NOT occur 1000 times a round...
The second example is a nice thought experiment except it won't occur because using Transform is the WORSE option. In the scenario described both players will opt to bring in their Blissey (or some other pokemon that does well against a Ditto version of itself) into the enemy Ditto.

Using Transform isn't always the worse option.
e.g. one player uses Transform, the other one switches to let's say Blissey.
The player choosing Transform gets to scout Blisseys entire moveset, which can prove to be pivotal (does it carry seismic toss or ice beam or maybe even another damaging move? is it a pure support variant? does it carry toxic or t-wave? etc.). After having scouted the moveset, the player can proceed and switch out his own best counter to that Blissey variant.