Donphan: The best rapid spinner?

[panamaxis]

So now that shoddy battle has been upgraded some new moves are a lot more viable, the main one i will talk about today is Odor Sleuth. For those of you who are unaware of this move I will give a breif overview on it. Odor Sleuth is normal type move with 40 base pp. It has perfect accuracy and it "blocks evasion modifiers and allows Fighting and Normal to hit Ghost."

So at a first glance is doesn't look too great, but this single move can drastically change the way the game is played. When you think of rapid spin, four main pokemon come to mind: Tentacruel, Starmie, Forretress and Donphan. Each of these have their own benifits which i will elaborate on now.

Tentacruel can set up Toxic Spikes and remove the opposing teams toxic spikes when switching in (it also helps that tentacruel is a great counter to infernape). Foretress can act as a physical wall, set up Spikes and Stealth Rocks. Starmie has great speed and special attack, instant recovery and a great ability in Natural Cure and Donphan has great attack, can also set up Stealth Rocks, phaze and act as a physical wall.

All of these pokemon have different traits which set them apart, but they all share one thing in common: they are utterly stopped from rapid spinning against opposing ghost types (mainly Spiritomb, Dusknoir and the Rotom forms) due to Rapid Spin not affecting them due to its normal typing. But not anymore! With Shoddy Battle's upgrade Donphan can now use Odor Sleuth to defeat these ghosts in their attempts to foil his rapid spinning ways. The only ghosts that pose a major threat to donphan upon switching in are Rotom-W and Rotom-C with Hydro Pump and Leaf Storm respectively.

So what do you think smogon? Is this move enough to boost Donphan usage? Is it reliable or unreliable? Discuss!

 

[cim]

"Lol, no."

A few things. First of all, an unSTABed Normal or Fighting move (what ones does Donphan learn? Return?) is still going to do jack shit at best to these Pokémon. Odor Sleuth does not get rid of Levitate.

Unlike other Spinners, Donphan isn't immune to Toxic Spikes.

Donphan lacks any move to reliably hit Rotom with and is promptly KOed by them. He was an okay Rapid Spinner when he could actually threaten Dusknoir and all that.

Honestly, Swords Dance Sandslash is probably a negligibly better Rapid Spinner than Donphan, since he can at least touch Rotom.

 

[darkseeker4]

i think it can be used but only to a certain extent..i mean wasting a slot to make spinning possible does not sound appealing.out of four slots.2 will be dedicated to spinning.i would not waste a move just so i can spin.i would predict a ghost comming in and switch to a counter.

 

[outofdashdwz]

Odor Sleuth, Rapid Spin, and Earthquake are pretty much nonnegotiable on a set you are suggesting, and that leaves one more slot for Donphan to fit in Ice Shard, Stone Edge, Stealth Rock, Roar, Knock Off, or whatever else floats your boat, be it Toxic, Rest, Body Slam, or something else. Not only does this make Donphan a sitting duck against many prominent OU threats, you're going to lose to the OU ghost, like ipl said. It'd probably be a better idea just to Knock Off Rotom's Lefties as it comes in or switch to something with Pursuit and Spin after it's gone.

 

[Lemmiwinks MkII]

I've brought up an issue similar to this in the Entry Hazards thread already, but I will attempt to provide an explanation as to why I think Hitmontop is far better suited for this role (if you were to try it).

The main problem is the one you have already mentioned. Rotom is by far the most common and best spin-blocker around, and Wash / Cut / Freeze forms will be able to switch in and OHKO you before you can pull off the two turns you need, i.e. Odor Sleuth followed by Rapid Spin. But Hitmontop, thanks to its great typing and special defense, will never be OHKO'd by anything Rotom can dish out, or even 2HKO'd without some kind of boosting item.

Hitmontop can also take advantage of Foresight from an offensive standpoint with its STAB Fighting moves, making it capable of severely denting Rotom and kicking Spiritomb to the curb. Donphan on the other hand is using Odor Sleuth purely to guarantee the spin, which is situational and a tad overspecializing. Hitmontop also has access to Sucker Punch to slam Ghosts hard if they attack, and also Tech Pursuit if you really wanted to.

Donphan does have much higher Defense, but Hitmontop can abuse Intimidate to make up for it somewhat, and combined with far superior Special Defense actually makes it sturdier overall despite the low HP. It can also be argued that Hitmontop is better at countering some of the more common threats, particularly Tyranitar as Donphan can no longer take CB Aqua Tails, although Salamence coverage is admittedly very useful.

Both are susceptible to Toxic Spikes however and neither have reliable recovery, but they are the only options available for this strategy (EDIT: Oh yeah, forgot about Blastoise somehow, but it's in the same boat as Donphan in that it doesn't make good use of Fighting / Normal attack moves). Overall I'd say that this is a fairly gimmicky tactic, and only really useful if you absolutely must keep the field clear. Having said this I would certainly not recommend it for any old team, but for certain offensive teams that rely on many SR weak Pokes it can make a big difference against stallish teams that rely on residual damage and spin-blocking.

So yeah, Hitmontop > Donphan, but only to be used for specific teams if anything.

 

[Darkmalice]

Foresight on Blastoise was at least an option in ADV battling. It could be Calm and EV itself to survive two Thunderbolts whilst 2HKOing Gengar (with the Torrent boost on the second Surf) (252 Hlth, 176 SpDef, 80 SpcAtt), and then there would be no anti-spinner. Dusclops posed little threat, as WoW wasn't a particularly large hinderance for Blastoise.

Donphan is different, because the OU Ghosts will beat Donphan 1v1. Gengar and Rotom are immune to Earthquake and attack Donphan's weaker defence, whilst Dusknoir has WoW, which does severly hinder Donphan. Agreeing with outofdashwz, I rather use Knock Off, or swap to a Pursuit User.

In my opinion, Donphan is the worse of the 4 OU spinners. Starmie has better Speed, Recover and Natural Cure (and can do decent damage to Rotom, meaning it can finish off a weakened Rotom (Ice Shard's damage is far too shit for this)). Forretress has great defence, Steel Typing, can set up any entry Hazard, Gyro Ball, Explosion and Reflect. Tentacruel instantly removes Tspikes and is a very effective Infernape counter (and can outrun Rotom too). Donphan lacks a recovery move, is a poor remover of Tspikes, has Ice Shard that only does good damage to those who are x4 weak to it (and not even enough to Gliscor), and is largely inferior to Hippowdon as a physical wall. With Knock Off and Trick becoming Plat tutor moves, that's even less reason to use Donphan, as many more pokemon can remove your enemies' Leftovers.

 

[Bourbon]

A maximum Special Attack Timid Starmie with a Mystic Water or Life Orb can 2HKO the toughest Rotom appliance on the analysis (252 HP, 120 SpD, Calm) easily with Hydro Pump. Stealth Rock support is required. If you want to bait and kill your opponent's Rapid Spinner that'd be the way to do it.

A Choice Specs Surf works too... just use Specstar with Rapid Spin > Grass Knot.

 

[Zinimi]

Agreeing with the majority here, mainly due to the fact of a wasted move slot. Also, because Donphan is so slow, taking two turns to set up Rapid Spin will usually give your opponent two turns to attack, and most ghosts are Special Attackers, making it hard for Donphan to even survive the first one.

 

[CWW]

Yeah, I have to say Donphan is pretty bad in OU. The only set that has merit is the CB set and only because it can surprise people. Being able to OHKO Salamence is pretty neat too. People are probably forfeiting Rapid Spin for Aqua Tail though to hit Hippowdon and Gliscor.

 

[C. Falcon]

No.

Donphan is the worst rapid spinner of the 'big 4' (Tenta, Starmie, Forrey, Phan.) in my opinion.

Its the only one that if it switchs in to Rapid Spin Toxic Spikes, it ends up getting poisoned...

It's lackluster special defence is also a big let down, especially as most special attacks are water, Fire, Ghost or Ice, (All of which Forrey resists except for Fire and Water, Starmie and Tena have the bulkiness to take 2 hits.)

 

[Olie]

Donphan is just bad in OU.
Odor Sleuth is not as convenient as it really sounds. Are you honestly willing to waste 2 turns (one of which may not be needed as not all teams carry a rotom, spiritomb or dusknoir) to remove one layer of stealth rock?

To be honest I use Tentacruel or Starmie most often if I truly need a spinner. Starmie's sweeping capabilities and Tentacruel's access to toxic spikes is always welcomed. Hell, even hitmontop is better.

 

[RaikouLover]

In all honesty... Donphan is the worst Spinner of OU. I'm surprised the thing still is OU.

Personally, I don't even think spinners are all that necessary unless they have another use on your team (like Forry, who can spike). Otherwise, they aren't worth wasting a team slot for. Just use a grounded Poison type if you dislike Toxic Spikes, or stack your team full of things that can hurt Skarmory and Forry, and limit your Stealth Rock weak pokemon to two.

 

[stormtrooper]

well with rapin spin and odor sleuth you also need rest or wish and aromatherapy to not get worn out by willowisp from ghosts then you probably will want earthquake of course. you also need rest or wish and aromtherapy if you have to spin off toxic spikes. the last move if you dont have rest would probably be ice shard or stone edge,because without it your doing nothing to flying types. so this leaves you vunerable when you are asleep or your doing wish and aromatherapy to being set up on by enemy sweepers.

 

[Peachfuzz]

Did everyone forget about the moves Payback (Forretress) and Assurance (Donphan)? These moves are actually pretty good against spin blockers, being dark type and for the most part being 100 base power. No ghosts have a reliable form of recovery, so these moves can be used on several switch-ins.

 

[cim]

Assurance doesn't do any more damage on a switch in and will only be 100 Power if you happen to face a Spiritomb that Calm Minds on you, and he's neutral to Dark anyway.

 

[Amelia]

So are you just going to odor sleuth on the switch in, and if there's no Ghost you wasted a turn?

Or do you rapid spin on the switch in, and if a Ghost comes in you wasted a turn?

 

[Thorns]

Odor Sleuth is a waste of a move slot. If you really, really want to get rid of entry hazards, take out the ghost first with a threat. Easy.

 

[obi]

I was actually going to mention Assurance Donphan, but I see there is already a misunderstanding there.

Assurance doesn't do any more damage on a switch in and will only be 100 Power if you happen to face a Spiritomb that Calm Minds on you, and he's neutral to Dark anyway.

Calm Mind has no bearing on Assurance's power. Assurance has 50 power normally, 100 if they take damage before you hit them in that turn. This means you want to use Assurance Donphan with Stealth Rock. This lets you hit most Ghosts with a 100 power move as they switch in (also works on guys like Starmie and Celebi for a more powerful hit). The reason is that everything takes damage from Stealth Rock, so if they switch in while Stealth Rock is active, they will take damage before you hit them. Assurance will also activate if they use a recoil move or have a Life Orb.

/edit: the reason I say "most Ghosts" is because you'll still be wanting to Earthquake Spiritomb.

 

[cim]

I thought that sounded off. I was thinking Punishment?

 

[maddog]

I guess its kind of cool that Donphan can do that, but you end up wasting 2 moveslots for it. If you really want some kind of "anti-anti spinner", go with Life Orb Starmie, which easily 2HKOs Rotom-forme with Hydro Pump. After the first hit, they will probably switch out, and that's when you can get off your Rapid Spin. The new formes did make Spinning alot harder, but it still is possible to use a good set that deals massive damage with good speed, and can still get off a Rapid Spin. Donphan doesn't like the fact that it gets Poisoned on a switch onto Toxic Spikes, which won't go away with his lack of recovery and the fact that pretty much nobody uses Aromatherapy anymore. However, if he does switch into Toxic Spikes, nobody is going to Will-O-Wisp him anytime soon. Donphan has better things he can be doing with that moveslot as mentioned, and other spinners can perform that same feat of getting past the new ghost, so I would not see myself using Odor Sleuth and Rapid Spin on the same set. It does get that guarnteed spin which is pretty nice (and I'm pretty sure most stall teams play a ghost to block spin, so It would come in handy sometimes), but overall, Donphan can do better than that.

@Chris: I'm pretty sure you were.

 

[-Zer0-]

The simple truth is that donphan gets owned by rotom forms, which makes it awful.

People aren't quite getting the point that 1 on 1, donphan has no chance. Someone has suggested using aromatherapy or wish to help donphan out. Think about this, you're devoting 1 member of your team to get rid of entry hazards (maybe) in a couple turns while it probably gets killed in the process (3 rotom forms 1HKO it with some EVs). I use rotom W. If I got odor sleuthed I would just KO with hydro pump.

Donphan is miserable in OU.

 

[Colonel M]

When it comes to using the big 4, Donphan is best used as something like a Physical Attacker (a Choice Band set) IMO. The Ghost-types that don't levitate hate STAB Earthquake, and it can still hammer those that levitate with Choice Band Assurance. After that, clear everything with Rapid Spin. I always found Ice Shard "meh" on the Choice Band set, though Stone Edge could be misplaced for Assurance too. I dunno, its just Donphan isn't as good as it was. Being weak to Toxic Spikes doesn't help its job.

 

[MythTrainerInfinity]

A number of Spiritomb and Dusknoir have Will-o-Wisp, so I would not be too hasty to try to leave Donphan in against almost any ghost.

The thing is with having Starmie is it would be somewhat difficult to get it in on Rotom without sacrificing something first and Choice Scarf Rotoms still are used to pose a decent threat.

Too few good Rapid Spinners out there...

 

[obi]

You don't have to get Starmie in on Rotom. You don't switch your Rapid Spinner into Ghosts, Ghosts have to be able to switch into your Rapid Spinner.

 

[Colonel M]

I did some calculations with Donphan and I gotta say the results are pretty interesting. This is with Choice Band by the way:

Rotom Appliance with Max HP / Max Def versus Assurance (not switching into Stealth Rock): (40.13% - 47.37%)

Max / Max Dusknoir versus Earthquake: (49.83% - 58.92%)

Max / Max neutral Defense natured Salamence versus Ice Shard (with Intimidate): (42.64% - 50.76%)

- W/Out Intimidate: (62.94% - 75.13%)

- W/ Min / Min Salamence: (99.09% - 117.22%)

Max / Max Impish Swampert versus Donphan Earthquake: (48.51% - 57.43%)

Min / Min Gengar taking Ice Shard: (39.02% - 46.21%) 2HKO with Stealth Rock 20.84% of the time.

I mean I could do more. Even Garchomp is nearly OHKOed by the Choice Band Ice Shard (albiet with a 3.02% chance with Stealth Rock factored in). But still, this must mean Donphan can be pretty threatening. And I know some of these aren't ghosts, but this still means something.