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Doubles Team for Random Matchup and VGC

Discussion in 'BW Other Teams' started by TMNTgrl25, Jul 1, 2012.

  1. TMNTgrl25

    TMNTgrl25

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    I most frequently use these guys on the random matchup doubles, and on the ‘tournament’ things that the GL puts up every now and then. Hopefully I’ll get to use them at fall VGC 2013, barring any rule changes. It’s essentially a read-and-react team. A couple notes, I’m not really willing to breed for Hidden Power because it requires a level of perfection I just don’t care to fight with (I have enough grief just trying to get a decent ability and nature sometimes, evidenced by the boxful of Cyndaquils in HG . . . but I digress). I’m also not willing to use legendaries, even the ones allowed at VGC because . . . well, because that’s the way I roll, I guess (besides, getting them with a decent nature is a headache). Anyway, the team.
    Changes are in bold.

    [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]


    [​IMG] (M) @ Life Orb
    Ability: Truant
    EVs: 252 Attack, 252 Speed, 4 Special Defense
    Nature: Adamant
    -Return
    -Earthquake
    -Slack Off
    -Shadow Claw (will be Fire Punch when BW2 Tutor is out)

    Man, was I ever happy when I accidentally bred an Adamant one of these little guys back in Diamond. Return will at least put a sizeable dent in anything that isn’t 4x resistant (once took a Regigigas down to the red with one shot, got a great laugh out of the guy’s expression), and the other moves are mostly coverage for anything Return can’t wipe out. Slaking is usually my lead, unless team preview warns him off with lots of fighting types/steels/rocks/a likely Trick Room set. He’s the team’s star player and hardest hitter. He does suffer from a crippling ability of course, but that has been remedied with . . .

    [​IMG] (F) @ Eviolite
    Ability: Pressure
    EVs: 252 HP, 128 Defense, 128 Special Defense
    Nature: Bold
    -Skill Swap
    -Will-O-Wisp
    -Pain Split
    -Shadow Sneak

    The other lead, the partner to the Slaking, the peanut butter to the jelly. Skill Swap is the essence of the strategy, coupled with her high defenses- remove the Truant from Slaking, wait out a turn, and then swap Truant onto an opponent (hopefully stealing a good ability in the process) and start stalling. When successful, this turns Slaking into a raging beast. There are several reasons for using Dusclops as my Skill Swapper- for one, she has more defense than a Dusknoir and isn’t really missing the extra attack power (Shadow Sneak is just there for poking purposes, make sure she doesn’t have to Struggle under a Taunt, and to pick off Sashes). I originally had a Claydol as my Skill Swapper, but after a nasty run-in with Fake Out, I decided to use a ghost instead; the only thing that can fake her out is a scrappy Kangaskhan, which is rare as far as I’ve seen. While Dusclops lacks Claydol’s Levitate for if I decide to have Slaking lead off with an Earthquake, she can still absorb the hit fairly well. Dusclops can also stand on her own if I decide not to bring Slaking, pestering the other team with Will-O-Wisp and Pain Split, crippling ability-reliant pokes with Skill Swap (always fun to steal someone’s Intimidate), and going on a laughing streak against Trick Room teams.

    [​IMG] (F) @ Expert Belt
    Ability: Moody
    EVs: 252 Special Attack, 252 HP
    Nature: Modest
    -Scald
    -Ice Beam
    -Charge Beam
    -Protect

    So here’s what everyone’s asking, I’m sure . . . why an Octillery? Because, well . . . I wanted a water type and I wanted to do something different (you’re talking to the person whose brother showed up to VGC pairing a Marowak and an Eviolite Scyther. I kinda take after him I guess). I also like her broad coverage, and when she hits, she does hit fairly hard. Protect makes for a nice stall to hopefully give me a good Moody boost and get the ball rolling in her favor. Also, the EVs . . . I gave her defenses half and half of what was left, but I suppose I could have put it all into HP. Would it make that much of a difference though- 128 in each defense as opposed to 252 HP? (edit: Fixed, thanks for the clear explanation on HP vs defense!)

    [​IMG] @ Lum Berry
    Ability: Clear Body
    EVs: 252 Attack, 252 Special Defense
    Nature: Brave
    -Meteor Mash
    -Bullet Punch
    -Zen Headbutt
    -Hammer Arm

    Oh wow, after a quick stat check I think I got this guy max HP IVs. Go figure. Anyway, the second heavy physical hitter alongside Slaking, with considerable bulk to boot. The Lum Berry has proved pretty reliable on him, considering that a burn can really cripple the poor guy, and it affords me some way to fight back against Spore Amoongus. He also makes a fine counter to Trick Room teams. Hammer Arm has upped his coverage significantly from Thunderpunch, and with Bullet Punch as a backup, he doesn't usually miss the speed lost.

    [​IMG] (F) @ Focus Sash
    Ability: Levitate
    EVs: 252 Special Attack, 252 Speed
    Nature: Timid
    -Flamethrower
    -Dragon Pulse
    -Dark Pulse
    -Protect

    This one came along after I determined my Dragon Rush Salamence to be legally BLIND (either that or the thing just hates me, either way I got tired of missing constantly). I did consider Draco Meteor and a White Herb, but I kinda like the extra coverage spot (Surf is out, unfortunately- doubles team, of course) and the free slot for Protect is proving invaluable. She also makes a good alternate lead if Slaking isn’t up for it after looking at team preview, and the Focus Sash has saved me more times than one (I realize it isn’t 100% reliable with things like Sandstorm and Hail, but it still saves my hide enough to warrant keeping it).

    [​IMG] @ Flying Gem
    Ability: Blaze
    EVs: 252 Attack, 252 Speed, 4 HP
    Nature: Adamant
    -Blaze Kick
    -Sky Uppercut
    -Protect
    -Acrobatics

    First of all, I don't have access to Speed Boost Blaziken, and I don't have pokesav, so whatever. I've always wanted to raise one of these things anyway, here he is.
    Chose Blaze Kick over Flare Blitz because let's face it, he's not sticking around for long WITHOUT the extra recoil, let's not help him along by having him damage himself. Same is said for Sky Uppercut- Hi Jump Kick is that much more of a risk making it that much more likely that he'll die prematurely.
    That said, he's doing alright so far as the newest member of the team. He hits.....well, hard enough, and he's....not incredibly fast, but kinda mid range. Frail as can be though. I dunno, I'm still toying with options for this slot.

    SCRAPPED from the sixth slot:

    Show Hide
    [​IMG] (F) @ Leftovers
    Ability: No Guard
    EVs: 252 Attack, 252 HP
    Nature: Brave
    -Dynamicpunch
    -Stone Edge
    -Payback
    -Substitute

    Another solid counter to Trick Room teams, more bulk to balance out the frail Hydreigon and Octillery, and let’s face it- this thing is just fun to use. Came along because I realized I was severely lacking in the fighting type department. Dyanamicpunch and Stone Edge both play off of her ability while Substitute helps absorb the occasional Will-O-Wisp or Psychic.

    [​IMG] @ Leftovers
    Ability: Dry Skin
    EVs: 252 Attack, 252 HP, 4...something (forgot, whoops)
    Nature: Adamant
    -Fake Out
    -Taunt
    -Sucker Punch
    -Drain Punch

    Tried to use this thing to replace Machamp, not entirely satisfied because it's....really frail. And not exactly fast. And mostly ended up dying a lot. I appreciated the Taunt support on occasion, but generally I didn't get a lot of use out of the froggy before I scrapped him. Poor froggy.


    Known threats: This team doesn’t appreciate Rain Dance teams- i.e. Drizzle Politoed paired with a Ludicolo- very much.
    Also, Dusclops doesn’t like Taunt very much, and I can’t exactly prevent it unless I evolve her into a Dusknoir and give her an herb (Mental Herb, isn’t it?). I gotta keep an eye out for those likely Taunt users (i.e. Whimsicott and the damn genies) if I want to lead with her. Unfortunately, if I evolve her, I’ll be losing out on some good defense for a little bit of HP and attack power that she really doesn't need for her role.
  2. voodoo pimp

    voodoo pimp Apply directly to the forehead
    is a Forum Moderator Alumnus

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    Welcome to Smogon! Interesting team, I always like to see something that isn't just standard goodstuff or rain, even if it is a bit gimmicky :P

    General comments: one thing your team is missing that's really useful in doubles is Protect. It provides huge tactical advantage, and I think you should consider trying it out on any of your Pokémon that can spare a move slot. You're also lacking in spread moves, as the only one you have is Earthquake which also hits your own partner (besides Hydreigon). You're also missing 4 EVs on all of your Pokémon except Octillery. It usually won't matter, but I've survived attacks with 1 HP left before, so that extra bit of bulk might save you one day. Finally, if you're tired of the headaches from breeding for good natures, etc. you might want to look into learning about RNG. If you have any questions about it, feel free to ask in that thread or send me or one of the other regular posters a PM. Alternately, you can check out this thread, where many users are willing to offer free Pokémon to VGC players (though you may have to wait until the 2013 rules are announced if you're not playing at Worlds).

    Slaking: I'm not a fan of Choice items in doubles, because it's much more difficult to switch out if you get locked into the wrong move, especially since every move in the set has a type and/or ability immune to it. I'd also suggest against Earthquake, especially if you keep the Band, since only one Pokémon on your team is immune to it. Fire Punch would be a better option if you want to hit the Steels that Brick Break doesn't get.

    Dusclops: HP EVs >>>> Def/SpD EVs. As a general rule, you should always max HP first unless the base HP stat is significantly higher than the base defenses (e.g. Hariyama). Otherwise, good.

    Octillery: Like Dusclops, you should put the EVs into HP first. Hax items like Quick Claw are generally looked down upon because 90% of the time it does absolutely nothing. Hydro Pump is significantly more powerful than Scald if you're willing to risk the accuracy. Also, you might want to give Moody a try. It's not nearly as broken in doubles as it is in singles, but it's still potentially game-changing.

    Metagross: ThunderPunch actually isn't very helpful against Water-types - most of the common ones besides Politoed are neutral or immune (Ludicolo, Kingdra, Gastrodon), and it's not much stronger than Zen Headbutt even on a super effective hit unless your opponent is using Gyarados or Slowbro or something. If you really want to deal with them, replacing Octillery with a more solid Water counter would probably be better.

    Hydreigon: If you dropped Salamence because of Dragon Rush, I can't imagine why you still have Focus Miss on there :P Protect would definitely be a good option as I mentioned earlier, especially with the popularity of Mach Punch and to protect your sash from Fake Out, or you could try Earth Power if you want to keep the coverage against Heatran.

    Machamp: pretty good in general, but you might find Sitrus Berry to be more useful than Leftovers since double battles tend to be fast-paced, and replacing Stone Edge with Rock Slide might be a good option if you want another spread move.

    Hope that helped!
  3. TMNTgrl25

    TMNTgrl25

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    Oh, those 4 extra EVs....they're there on everyone, I just don't know what they are. I guess the one measly extra stat point never seemed worth it to me.

    Slaking's a bit situational, but I still like the wreckage the Band gives me. He's unfortunately my only EQ user at the moment though. I almost never lock into Brick Break unless something really weird happens and same goes for Shadow Claw (an errant Gengar that needs put down before it rapes me, for example). If I'd replace any move, I might replace one of those two with Fire Punch.

    The difference in HP and defenses still confuses me; I had someone sort of explain it once, but I still don't really get why one would pick HP over defense (barring something like a Bouffalant with recoil moves and such). Back when I was a kid, I was like oh this game is easy and so uncomplicated, but noooo, how much more wrong could I have been... :P

    I hadn't thought to try out Moody (it's not like he ever gets crits anyway, so Sniper's doing me no good). I might toy with that while keeping a replacement in mind.

    What could I replace Thunderpunch with, in that case? The only problem that would leave him with is steel types, but I suppose that's a decent place to chuck Protect on as well. Also, any suggestions for a water counter to replace Octillery that'll jive with the rest of the team?

    Earth Power is...wow, base 90? I thought it was far weaker. And honestly, you're probably right about Focus Miss (I thought only me and my siblings called it that...); it's really only good for steels and I have Flamethrower for that. I think I'll try Protect for now and maybe give Earth Power a shot when BW2 comes out, since it'll have a move tutor.

    I think I'm ok with Stone Edge for now; far more power and the drop in accuracy is no problem.

    Back to the Dream World, it looks like. I still haven't found that female Multiscale Dratini....luckily I see a lot more Remoraids than Dratinis...
  4. voodoo pimp

    voodoo pimp Apply directly to the forehead
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    Well, in very rough terms, bulk is the product of HP and (Special) Defense, so if you only cared about one side you'd want to balance the two to get the maximum value. But since HP adds to both physical and special bulk, while each defensive stat only adds to one side, that means that HP EVs are worth more than (Special) Defense EVs up until the HP stat is double the defensive stats, since at that point adding two points to HP would give you the same extra bulk as adding one point to each defensive stat (8 HP = 4 Def + 4 SpD), disregarding minor stuff like recoil and HP drain. This is especially true with something like Dusclops, where the base HP stat is so much lower than the defenses that it would give you more bulk even if you only cared about one side.

    Or you can just save yourself the trouble of working it all out and use X-Act's calculator :P
    Protect is always good, Explosion is fun (watch out for opponent's Protect, though), Ice Punch for dragon coverage if you're losing Octillery's Ice Beam.

    For a rain counter, you want something that's fairly bulky, resists Water, and isn't weak to more than one of their usual coverage types (Ice, Electric, Grass), and that has some way to hit them back hard. The best option is probably Abomasnow since it also kills their weather (though that wouldn't work well with Hydreigon's sash), but some other good ones are Ferrothorn, Virizion, Ludicolo, Rotom-W/C, Gastrodon (watch out for Grass attacks), Lanturn, and Toxicroak.
  5. TMNTgrl25

    TMNTgrl25

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    That explanation...actually makes more sense. That helps.

    So....I'm thinking either a Starmie or a Gastrodon, because I want to keep my own water coverage if I'm replacing Octillery. Gastrodon is bulkier, though the Thunderbolt coverage and speed from a Life Orb Starmie wouldn't hurt I suppose. I'm still gonna hunt up a DW Remoraid and give Moody a shot though, just for kicks.
  6. TMNTgrl25

    TMNTgrl25

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    So now that the Dream World decided to stop messing with me, I've managed to make some tweaks.

    I swapped Slaking's Choice Band for a Life Orb and it's been working pretty well. I'm thinking of replacing Shadow Claw with Fire Punch (once BW2 comes out, anyway... >_>) and replacing Brick Break with Slack Off to negate some of the Life Orb damage. Not sure how many opportunities I'd get to use Slack Off in a doubles setting anyway; once people see that Slaking doesn't have Truant any more, they tend to gangrape him and I don't blame them. :P
    I replaced Hydreigon's Focus Miss with Protect and I'm already liking it- I don't miss the coverage and I can keep Fake Out at bay to hold onto my Sash.
    I'm still not sure about Metagross- I want to replace Thunderpunch, but I don't know what with; Protect would be okay, but with only steel and psychic attacks he'd kind of be walled by opposing steel types- he doesn't like Excadrill and Steelix much as it is.

    Octillery, meanwhile, has had quite the makeover.

    [​IMG] @ Expert Belt
    Ability: Moody
    EVs: 252 Special Attack, 252 HP, 4 Defense
    Nature: Modest
    -Scald
    -Ice Beam
    -Charge Beam
    -Protect

    So yeah, dropped Energy Ball and Flamethrower for Protect and Charge Beam. Protect can let me set up my wildcard boost as well as making sure Thundurus and the like can't KO the little squirt the instant she sets foot on the field. I decided to go for Charge Beam because the Special Attack boost never hurts and it'll give me pseudo-BoltBeam coverage.
    If I find that Octillery still isn't pulling her weight, I'm still considering trading her out for a Gastrodon. Back to the wi-fi for some practice, I suppose.
  7. Chenkovsky

    Chenkovsky Hula's waifu.
    is a Pre-Contributor

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    giga impact > return trust me you will deal a lot more damage that way, but some team support such as rage powder amoonguss instead of octillary will also increase the long livingness of your team, whilst protect maybe a better option than shadow sneak on dusclops, other than that it certainly looks like quite a solid team that'll turn some heads.
  8. TMNTgrl25

    TMNTgrl25

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    Totally missed this reply, haven't been on in a while. >_> Oops.
    Anyway, thanks for the suggestions; however, while Giga Impact does more damage, it'll also leave Slaking a sitting duck on the next turn since I'm using Skill Swap to remove Truant anyway, and even if I don't get the Skill Swap off, using Giga Impact would leave me unable to switch on my Truant turn.
    Using Protect on Dusclops would be an option, but she's Taunt-bait sometimes as it is, so Protect wouldn't buy her much. I did fix her EVs to 252HP/128Def/128SpDef though.
    Hey hey, I like my Octillery- switching her ability to Moody has worked out SO well, and she can actually be a significant threat with a little luck.

    However, a support pokemon might not hurt. I'm still wavering on my sixth- I tried replacing Machamp with a Taunt/Fake Out/Sucker Punch/Drain Punch Toxicroak, and I liked the Taunt and Fake Out support, but it was pretty damn frail, even with HP training. Right now I'm running a non-Speed Boost Blaziken (I don't have access to one with Speed Boost), and he's doing alright. Still experimenting though. I suppose I could try a RagePowder Amoongus or maybe a Conkeldurr. Thoughts, anyone?

    Edit: Fixed original post to reflect changes.

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