Doubles Teambuilding Workshop Sessions - (SEE POST 139)

[Electrolyte]

Pwnemon is right; we shouldn't be making a team around gimmicks. The point is to make something competitive out of the ideas given here, so obviously the idea itself has to be of competitive nature.
I apologize if I made the rules unclear; in the future we'll stick to a simple and concise 1 or 2 Pokemon competitive core.

Thanks to Pwnemon's and Braverius's tips, however, many people have fixed their submissions, so the show can indeed go on. It's time for voting!

RULES:
-You can only vote for one idea.
-No changing votes.
-You can't vote for yourself.
-You may discuss the pros/cons of already submitted ideas but you may not submit new ideas.
-From this point on, you may not change your idea.

IDEAS:
Rain + AV Ludicolo
Latios + Volcarona
"Reking nubs in low rank with ubers from singles" <-- lol
Cress + Tran Semi TR
Tailwind Suicune + Mega Heracross
Semi TR + Heracross
Mega Gyarados + Amoonguss
Dragonite + Bisharp
Talonflame + Garchomp
Volcarona
Excadrill + Talonflame
Charizard Y + Hitmontop
Mew + Porygon Gravity / Hypnosis
Porygon2 + Mega Gengar Gravity / Hypnosis

(SopS4nd posted like three different things; I decided to go with the one with the more specific core)

Voting will close right before we start the workshop on PS, so get your votes in before then! Good luck everyone!

 

[Electrolyte]

My vote:

Excadrill + Talonflame (Level 51)

 

[BlankZero]

Latios + Volcarona (Nollan)

 

[SopS4nd]

Tailwind + Mega Heracross - (Kyle Cole)

 

[Laga]

Level 51

edit: it's burd + mole btw :]!

 

[Stratos]

rekking nubs in low rank with ubers from singles

latios + volcarona

 

[Ultimathunder]

Level-51
Excadrill + Talonflame

 

[termi]

Reking nubs in low rank with ubers from singles

This is my actual vote and the only possible option for any self-respecting individual

 

[Haruno]

rekking nubs in low rank with ubers from singles

are there any other options?

 

[youngjake93]

Latios+Volc

 

[finally]

Talonflame + Garchomp

 

[Nollan]

Heatran + Cress Semi TR

While these two are probably as standard as it gets (jk Lando-T + Rotom-W or Lando-T + Togekiss is way more standard), I support the idea because it'll help the lesser players get more familiar with what is a pretty standard team build, and thus allow them to build and recognize well known and solid line ups with more ease. Given this is the first teambuilding workshop of many, it makes sense to start with standard things and go a bit more on the creative side as time progresses.

I would prefer if this was just Cress + Heatran and didn't really specify a playstyle, but you take what you can get I guess.

Oh, as a last note, if "reqqing nubs in low rank with ubers from singles" wins, I will personally ban everyone who voted for it from IRC. That is all.

 

[BlankZero]

Heatran + Cress Semi TR

While these two are probably as standard as it gets (jk Lando-T + Rotom-W or Lando-T + Togekiss is way more standard), I support the idea because it'll help the lesser players get more familiar with what is a pretty standard team build, and thus allow them to build and recognize well known and solid line ups with more ease. Given this is the first teambuilding workshop of many, it makes sense to start with standard things and go a bit more on the creative side as time progresses.

I would prefer if this was just Cress + Heatran and didn't really specify a playstyle, but you take what you can get I guess.

Oh, as a last note, if "reqqing nubs in low rank with ubers from singles" wins, I will personally ban everyone who voted for it from IRC. That is all.

If it wasn't me that nommed it, it wouldn't be SemiRoom :P

Also, Electrolyte ! Is there a reason the Noms aren't listed by Name?

 

[Level 51]

aw i cant vote for myself :<
Latios + Volcarona
edit: apparently i have a super irrational fear of tflame so Talonflame + Garchomp

 

[realiti]

Latios + Volcorona

 

[Electrolyte]

The nominations aren't listed by name because the identity of the creator of the idea should not matter when you guys make your decisions. Just don't want people to bandwagon behind a certain user and ignore / overlook the actual quality of the idea itself.


Also guys don't make me regret giving everyone a fair chance in the nominations by not filtering the noms according to quality *hint hint* ;_;

 

[BLOOD TOTEM]

Mega Gyara + Amoong

 

[termi]

Also guys don't make me regret giving everyone a fair chance in the nominations by not filtering the noms according to quality *hint hint* ;_;

I know you don't like Talonflame + Excadrill but geez don't be such a bitch about it

 

[D-Quag]

Talonflame + Excadrill sounds sweet :)

 

[Electrolyte]

Alright, this is a wrap up post for the great discussion we had on PS today! THIS is the team we made :]

importable

SMOGON DOUBLES TEAMBUILDING WORKSHOP
MARCH 31, PS

TEAM IMPORTABLE:

Talonflame @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Gale Wings
EVs: 176 Spd / 252 Atk / 80 HP
Adamant Nature
- Tailwind
- Brave Bird
- Flare Blitz
- Protect

Excadrill @ Life Orb
Ability: Mold Breaker
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spd / 4 HP
Adamant Nature
- Earthquake
- Iron Head
- Rock Slide
- Protect

Suicune @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 136 Spd / 252 SAtk / 120 HP
Timid Nature
- Scald
- Ice Beam
- Tailwind
- Protect

Thundurus (M) @ Expert Belt
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 HP / 100 Def / 156 SAtk
Modest Nature
- Thunder Wave
- Taunt
- Thunderbolt
- Hidden Power [Ice]

Gardevoir @ Gardevoirite
Ability: Trace
EVs: 252 SAtk / 252 Spd / 4 HP
Modest Nature
- Hyper Voice
- Future Sight
- Protect
- Shadow Ball

Aegislash @ Spooky Plate
Ability: Stance Change
EVs: 4 SAtk / 252 HP / 252 Atk
Brave Nature
- Shadow Ball
- Wide Guard
- Shadow Sneak
- Sacred Sword

The end vote was 4 in support for Level 51's Excadrill / Talonflame combination, so that was our starting core.

Reasoning

We decided to make the team Tailwind-based, as we really wanted to take advantage of Excadrill's massive attack power and ability to deal massive widespread damage with LO Mold Breaker EQ. Talonflame then obviously went standard, with Sitrus to preserve its longevity. Exca we then decided to make LO Mold Breaker like Pocket's suggestion; it was designed to fuck with Rotom-W, which was a huge cockblock to Talonflame, and just deal a lot of damage once Tailwind was up.

Then we decided on the next Pokemon. Originally, it was AV Ludicolo with Fake Out to counter Landorus-T, but once the team was made we decided to change it to Suicune for more bulk and its ability to act as a side Tailwind setter.

We then added Thundurus-I to check Flying-types. We needed it to be able to check Landorus, Mega Char Y, and Talonflame, preferably outside of Tailwind, so youngjake played with EVs and offered a spread that could survive a whole bunch of different powerful physical attacks yet still manage to consistently OHKO Mega Charizard Y with Thunderbolt. Thundurus also provided priority Taunt, which was helpful to counter Trick Room. Thunder Wave on it also helped to provide Speed control when Tailwind was down.

At that point, we chose another special attacker, and mostly agreed that it was the right time to pick a Mega. It was a toss up between Mega Garde and Mega Char Y but Garde won out in the end because it didn't compound weaknesses and had better synergy. It helped counter physical walls that the team was weak to, and helped draw out Steel-types for the other Pokemon to beat. Its powerful spread move, Hyper Voice, was great to also deal lots of damage while it was out. We agreed to Future Sight as a sideline STAB because of its power and ability to break through protection. Shadow Ball was added as coverage because Ghost offense is OP.

Finally, we had Aegislash, who provided Wide Guard, mixed attacking options, and even more priority. We needed Wide Guard to protect against Rock Slide, EQ, Discharge, Heat Wave, and Surf, which were all pretty dangerous. Its Sacred Sword was also great for surprising Heatran switchins.

So that's pretty much the team! Youngjake and I both tested it on the ladder and saw quite a lot of success. If you guys have any other suggestions, feel free to bring them up now!


Major Points Discussed:
~Team structure- how to build a team
~Tailwind and how to use it
~Maintaining offensive and defensive synergy
~Considering different traits of Pokemon and seeing how well they fit into certain slots because of the roles they play
~How to spot and fix team weaknesses
~General viability discussion


Big thanks to everyone who showed up! We had a great discussion, but sadly a lot of people who promised would come didn't make it. Hopefully the next session sees a greater amount of active participants. Either way, it was a great and fruitful exercise.


This thread will now be for comments / suggestions on the team and feedback from those who participated in the discussion. What did you like about it? What could have been improved?

Thanks again for everyone that participated! :]

 

[youngjake93]

I hadn't really used Suicune too much so I was skeptical at first of the switch from Ludicolo, but it really became the perfect gluemon. The massive bulk, added Tailwind setter and actual bulky fire resist was the final piece :)
Prankster t-wave really goes a long way in leaving a big threat for dead. I really like how Thundurus-I beats almost all Landorus-T and serves as a mini-lure(lives scarf stone edge and kills with hp ice).
Finally, Spooky Shadow Sneak is pleasantly powerful and nabs a lot of surprise kills!

The team feels like a success imo and I like how half of the sets are unorthodox(although it being public does kinda take away from that somewhat).

 

[BlankZero]

Great job guys! I planned on making it but my truck took a bit longer than I had planned on. Glad it all worked out and I'm excited to try this team out a bit and give my feedback.

 

[Pocket]

Thanks, Electrolyte and youngjake for leading this first workshop! I am especially impressed by Electrolyte's management of this ambitious project - keep up the stellar work!

As for the team itself, I appreciate how you all tried out creative sets to form a functional team, which truly emphasizes what's so cool about Doubles (this format allows a lot of room for creativity and customization). I dig the anti-Landorus-T Thundurus and Future Sight Gardevoir, and I cant wait to try them out :d

I'm somewhat skeptical of the Talonflame set, though. It seems pretty counter-productive to cut so much power from Excadrill's offensive partner. I can appreciate the Tailwind support it provides Excadrill, but I feel that Sitrus Berry is a bit much. I'd probably go with either Sharp Beak or Life Orb for the notable boost in Brave Bird's power.

How is Talonflame actually holding up in practice, though? Is the power loss notable? Does the Sitrus Berry come in handy?

 

[youngjake93]

Thanks, Electrolyte and youngjake for leading this first workshop! I am especially impressed by Electrolyte's management of this ambitious project - keep up the stellar work!

As for the team itself, I appreciate how you all tried out creative sets to form a functional team, which truly emphasizes what's so cool about Doubles (this format allows a lot of room for creativity and customization). I dig the anti-Landorus-T Thundurus and Future Sight Gardevoir, and I cant wait to try them out :d

I'm somewhat skeptical of the Talonflame set, though. It seems pretty counter-productive to cut so much power from Excadrill's offensive partner. I can appreciate the Tailwind support it provides Excadrill, but I feel that Sitrus Berry is a bit much. I'd probably go with either Sharp Beak or Life Orb for the notable boost in Brave Bird's power.

How is Talonflame actually holding up in practice, though? Is the power loss notable? Does the Sitrus Berry come in handy?

Tbh I kinda wanted Sharp Beak on Talonflame. Not sure how big of a difference it is since they both are weak compared to Band which I'm used to. Why don't you try playtesting both Pocket?

This is such a cool project; can't wait to give the team a try! I really wish i could've been there. :(
I am surprised there's no logs of the process o.o
The summary of the teambuilding is definitely satisfactory, but maybe you could provide a pastebin of the logs of the whole process (much like the RMT Workshops thing, although it's different)? That could give us a much clearer idea of how good players think while teambuilding, how they go about finding threats and team members and their EV spreads, etc. And it's almost like being present then, so we don't feel as bad for missing it.

I cannot wait for the next installment :O

If you read the CCAT thread and Electrolyte's reasoning hide tag, it is sort of similar to that. However, there were several people throwing out ideas, explaining why some sets were bad or some sets were good, what the team needs are, etc so there was rapid quality control. We didn't have to follow the strict 1 Pokemon at a time decision-making of CCAT which was cool. For example, we could decide on choosing Ludicolo(later Suicune) over Gyarados because people were already speculating a different flying type such as Thundurus for the next slot, but Gyarados was arguably the best addition if we looked strictly at what we had and not what we were going to have.
I wonder when the next session would be. Hopefully more people will do it.

 

[Electrolyte]

I decided not to put up logs because they were loooooong (about x2 the max page limit for PS :0) and most of it was just theorymonning and people throwing around ideas that weren't used in the final team. This hopefully won't always be the case; discussions on IRC tend to be more concise and well defined so I will definitely try to get logs from those if possible.

I'm definitely glad everyone's so happy about what we came up with!

In terms of Pocket's suggestion, Life Orb / Sharp Beak are definitely worth a shot on Talonflame. The initial reasoning for Sitrus Berry was that Talonflame would have been the only Tailwind user on the team and therefore prioritize longevity, and that was true until we added Suicune. However, now that Suicune can take on that role, it's definitely a good idea (and probably the best idea) to make Talonflame more offensive.

I'm also (still) skeptical about Future Sight on Gardevoir. I personally use Gardevoir as a late-game sweeper and wallbreaker, and Future Sight's charge turns really don't help with that. I'd greatly prefer the immediate accessibility of Psychic, which I find more reliable and less surprise-dependent. I guess that's just my own playstyle though.

Aside from that, the team is pretty solid!


Regarding my plans for the next Workshop:

The next workshop will be in #doubles on IRC. This is to keep up with rotational process, to encourage new users to head onto IRC, and to make experienced users more comfortable in the chat environment.

As for the time, that's still undecided. This time, I'd like to do a more official collection of available times for the veteran users, as I think part of the reason why the first session wasn't as active as I had hoped was because I chose a time that a lot of people suddenly could not attend. (I apologize for those who feel like they had no ability to modify the first date for their needs. However, the main reason why I chose the first date myself was because 1. I was most accessible on that date and 2. I wanted to make sure that the project could be run successfully before conducting a more step-by-step process. However, date determination for this project will now be based on the collective timeslots for the more experienced users; this is because Workshops become much more educating when the amount of experienced input increases.) In the future, we will determine a time that is best for as many people as possible.


In the meantime, those who are not yet comfortable with the IRC environment yet wish to attend this next session should try and get themselves situated in that environment. If you guys have any questions, feel free to check this article for more info on how to access IRC.


Thank you everyone for your positive feedback. This was a great start to a hopefully successful group of Workshops!